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post #4951 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 04:43 PM
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ntrain i think its time for you to stop the arguing, you've already gotten a thread locked in this forum for arguing around in circles, this is a large thread with a lot of useful info, none of us want to see it locked.. my apologies if this sounds crass but, thanks in advance.


also the subwoofer/rythmik forum is ---> that way
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post #4952 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 05:25 PM
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DS-21,
What center channel should I've gotten for my Q900 fronts.

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post #4953 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

DS-21,
What center channel should I've gotten for my Q900 fronts.

q600c would be the 'proper' one, q200c would work also but the drivers are much smaller
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post #4954 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 05:52 PM
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That's what I've got q600c so will the eggs work for heights. Found some on ebay.

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post #4955 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

That's what I've got q600c so will the eggs work for heights. Found some on ebay.



i would try and use the q100s if you can, you want all your fronts to be the same series/tweeter if you can.. the 100s won't be too bad wall mounted if you find some little brackets to hold them i wouldn't think.
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post #4956 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 06:01 PM
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Do they have a hole in the back for the wall brackets.

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post #4957 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

Do they have a hole in the back for the wall brackets.

i have the q300s and they have a bracket on them already, i would assume the 100s would be the same.. heres a pic

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post #4958 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 06:52 PM
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Thanks cream puff for taking the time to help and take the picture of your q300.

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post #4959 of 6826 Old 04-22-2012, 07:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

DS-21,
What center channel should I've gotten for my Q900 fronts.

A third Q900. The front three speakers should be identical. Anything less is, well, less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cream puff View Post


i have the q300s and they have a bracket on them already, i would assume the 100s would be the same.. heres a pic

FWIW, my Q100s had that bracket as well. But I doubt the they will be materially different from the eggs as height speakers. In the surround side/back role, I couldn't ascertain a DIFFERENCE between KEF Q-Compacts and much better 8" Tannoy Dual Concentrics.

Front trio is crucial. The rest just needs to be competent.
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post #4960 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Before I go any farther on the Kef discussion, lets turn the attn to the RYthmik measurement.

Let's not, as it's out of the scope of the topic. I provided you enough information to find the review, as well as discussion of it in the relevant AVS forum, and answer all your questions.

But back to KEF mains speakers. It's fair to say, I think, that KEF's target has long been flat frequency response on axis with smooth midrange polars due to a tweeter that can play low enough come in where the woofer's directivity has narrowed to the pattern set by the Uni-Q's cone/waveguide. For example, here's Stereophile's horizontal off-axis measurement for their flagship from the mid-1990s, the Reference Four:


Their newer drivers seem to allow them to achieve that goal at considerably lower prices, and with broader treble dispersion, than they could previously. Note that despite having a tweeter 50% larger, the Q900 has broader treble dispersion than the Ref Four. As you can see from the measurements I posted above, the Ref 201/2 and Q900 both follow in the Ref Four's footsteps. While I've not seen any R-Series measurements, given its design one expects the R-Series will as well, with the difference that it will throw a generally broader pattern due to the smaller and shallower waveguide/cone.

However, they also had a series of speakers that had drive-units incapable of meeting those goals, because the tweeter couldn't go low enough to match the midwoofer's pattern. So they had midrange polars more like a typical B&W than the typical KEF. Someone who liked those probably will think the new ones are a step back, and somebody who broadly agrees with KEF's long-held targets will likely find their newer models a welcome reversion to the mean. Even though the old curved ones are more aesthetically pleasing.

Lastly, as to measurement/setup, one thing you wrote above is the following: "And RTA in the right hands can do a phenominal job of tuning in a set of speakers to a room's environment if you know what your doing."
That is broadly speaking true, with the caveat that "know what you're doing" most of the time means ignoring what the meter says and trusting your ears. Newer measurement techniques do a better job of correlating with how we actually hear. One doesn't even need a dedicated measurement rig today, if one picks the right electronics. Anthem's receivers and processors currently offer a tool called "QuickMeasure" that works quite well to help with initial setup, for instance. And a better-optimized initial setup makes the room correction work better, too.

If every other AVR/processor maker else doesn't have their own variant of Anthem's QuickMeasure two product generations hence, then they're not doing their job.

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post #4961 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 05:24 AM
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DS-21, good info.

Given the choice between a pair of xq30's and a xq50c or a pair of Q900's and a 600c for the front 3 in a 7.1 system, which would be the better choice?

I plan on using them for TV and music.
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post #4962 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jsil View Post

Thanks cream puff for taking the time to help and take the picture of your q300.

Jsil, I used the below to mount my Q300s on the wall. With the way the wire terminals are designed on the Q300, it would be damn near impossible to hang them on the wall with the attached bracket. Wonder why Kef even bothered putting it there.

http://www.amazon.com/Pinpoint-AM-40...5189090&sr=8-3
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post #4963 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

DS-21, good info.

Given the choice between a pair of xq30's and a xq50c or a pair of Q900's and a 600c for the front 3 in a 7.1 system, which would be the better choice?

I plan on using them for TV and music.

Honestly, I would not recommend either configuration.

Three Q300's, or even three Q100's if you can't fit three Q300's at the same height and in the same orientation, would be a better choice than either one of the above non-matching packages.

Yes, with the bookshelves you would have to buy them in pairs, so that leaves you with an extra speaker. But a coherent front stage is, IMO worth it. Perhaps you can sell the third to someone who is in the same position. (Heck, if you end up with the Q100's, I'd buy the spare one off of you so I can go 3.1 in my bedroom with three properly identical speakers.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arshishb View Post

***With the way the wire terminals are designed on the Q300, it would be damn near impossible to hang them on the wall with the attached bracket.

While the bracket is a bit clunky (especially when one considers how elegantly KEF handled the wall-mount issue on the KHT3005SE satellites) it works fine if one uses spade lugs, or nothing at all, on the loudspeaker end of the speaker wire. Most banana plugs will stick out too much. But it's kind of silly to use bananas on a wall-mount. Their only advantage is that they're easy to swap in and out. With a wall-mount, that's less of an issue. (Bananas are great for the back of an AVR, though.) Sonically, there will be no difference between bananas, spades, and tinned/plated bare wire. Untinned/unplated bare wire could get corroded, which is sonically benign but looks ugly.

Thanks for pointing out that Pinpoint bracket, though. It's hard to find mounting brackets for heavier speakers. I couldn't tell from the picture if it screws in or just clamps the sides. Does it have a screw bracket as well? I suspect in my next home I'll be wall-mounting my front three mains (gasp, not KEFs, but instead speakers I designed using 12" Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers), but they're 16.5" wide at the baffle and curve from there.

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post #4964 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Let's not, as it's out of the scope of the topic. I provided you enough information to find the review, as well as discussion of it in the relevant AVS forum, and answer all your questions.

But back to KEF mains speakers. It's fair to say, I think, that KEF's target has long been flat frequency response on axis with smooth midrange polars due to a tweeter that can play low enough come in where the woofer's directivity has narrowed to the pattern set by the Uni-Q's cone/waveguide. For example, here's Stereophile's horizontal off-axis measurement for their flagship from the mid-1990s, the Reference Four:


Their newer drivers seem to allow them to achieve that goal at considerably lower prices, and with broader treble dispersion, than they could previously. Note that despite having a tweeter 50% larger, the Q900 has broader treble dispersion than the Ref Four. As you can see from the measurements I posted above, the Ref 201/2 and Q900 both follow in the Ref Four's footsteps. While I've not seen any R-Series measurements, given its design one expects the R-Series will as well, with the difference that it will throw a generally broader pattern due to the smaller and shallower waveguide/cone.

However, they also had a series of speakers that had drive-units incapable of meeting those goals, because the tweeter couldn't go low enough to match the midwoofer's pattern. So they had midrange polars more like a typical B&W than the typical KEF. Someone who liked those probably will think the new ones are a step back, and somebody who broadly agrees with KEF's long-held targets will likely find their newer models a welcome reversion to the mean. Even though the old curved ones are more aesthetically pleasing.

Lastly, as to measurement/setup, one thing you wrote above is the following: "And RTA in the right hands can do a phenominal job of tuning in a set of speakers to a room's environment if you know what your doing."
That is broadly speaking true, with the caveat that "know what you're doing" most of the time means ignoring what the meter says and trusting your ears. Newer measurement techniques do a better job of correlating with how we actually hear. One doesn't even need a dedicated measurement rig today, if one picks the right electronics. Anthem's receivers and processors currently offer a tool called "QuickMeasure" that works quite well to help with initial setup, for instance. And a better-optimized initial setup makes the room correction work better, too.

If every other AVR/processor maker else doesn't have their own variant of Anthem's QuickMeasure two product generations hence, then they're not doing their job.

If you could kindly direct me to the link to the Rythmik measurements/review that would be great. Problem with the review link you gave, it flies in the face of a few other reviews with posted measurements........regardless, in room response I find with both the D15SE's and the FV15HP(I own a pair of both)shows that frequency response is flat and extends well beyond 120hz before rolling off. The fact that I can get a down firing sealed 15" rythmik to blend in seamlessly to a pair of XQ10's using 120hz as the xover point with a midrange driver that is effectively a 4" driver in surface area(yes I know its a 5" but the central mounted tweeter and wave guide effectively makes it a 4" midrange driver in reality)shows that its effective range is well beyond the 100hz your claiming.

Also I agree that your own ears are the best and final word on tuning, but I have found that using a pro RTA as a setup tool to smooth out any obvious bumps or dips in the response range ='s a speaker that sounds its best and allows the most detail in the recording to be revealed. Speakers that have significant peaks and dips in their in room response tend to mask or exxagerate specific tones on the recording in a negative fashion. Having an rta on hand and a good EQ function can allow for any competently designed, modest price "midfi/mainstream" speaker to sound as good(and in many cases much better) than a so called megabuck "Class A" rated high end speaker. I agree though, using an RTA properly means you have to know what your doing and does not garentee better results, its all up to the individual.

With this stated, its why I am very partial to the XQ monitors. I have found their in room response has been the flattest to date of pretty much all Kef speakers I have sold or installed over the course of the past 10-15 years. And they look fantastic too which is a nice bonus.

Too bad we can't find some "pro" measured reviews on the XQ, latest gen iQ speakers or the new R yet. The data I have obviously comes from my own ears and in room readings, but they have shown the 2 XQ monitors to be exceptional with flat responses I could not equal with my previous 201/2's, Ref. Model 2 or the new R300.

Side note though, if someone was worried about SQ first and formost, I would without question recommend the R300 over the 201/2. I feel its a better performing speaker, but its still behind the 10 and 20 XQ models un EQ'd, which is why I recommend the XQ series still. Especially with the really killer prices you can find em for now. Ive seen XQ10's for $5-600 bucks, and the XQ20 for $8-900 bucks. An absolute steal of a deal for a reference quality/sounding monitor IMO that comes with a gorgeous cabinet which is my biggest complaint on the new Q/R speakers. The cabinets just look cheap and cheesy in comparison. That back shot of the Q300 above just does not do it any favors in its presentation.
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post #4965 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

DS-21, good info.

Given the choice between a pair of xq30's and a xq50c or a pair of Q900's and a 600c for the front 3 in a 7.1 system, which would be the better choice?

I plan on using them for TV and music.

THe XQ30's and 50c without question, especially at the prices that they can be scored at. I picked up a brand new XQ50c for $375 shipped, 2 pairs of XQ10's for $500 shipped each set and a set of XQ20's with the stands for $900 total just to give you an idea. And if aesthetics are also important to you the XQ cabinets are just in a different league all their own. Just look back a page to the gentleman who has his XQ's up on display.
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post #4966 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


Thanks for pointing out that Pinpoint bracket, though. It's hard to find mounting brackets for heavier speakers. I couldn't tell from the picture if it screws in or just clamps the sides. Does it have a screw bracket as well? I suspect in my next home I'll be wall-mounting my front three mains (gasp, not KEFs, but instead speakers I designed using 12" Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers), but they're 16.5" wide at the baffle and curve from there.

They clamp on as tight as you can possibly want & you can screw them into place as well. The Q300s are 17lb each & they have held up fine up there so far. I get your point about the plugs for surrounds since you do not move them much, didnt think about it. But I am glad I have the pin points as I can actually pin point (no pun..) the Q300s to the listening area. The results have been very good for my ears & I like it that way.
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post #4967 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by arshishb View Post

They clamp on as tight as you can possibly want & you can screw them into place as well.

Screw from the side or the bottom? I couldn't tell from the picture.

(Side clamps are a no go on my reference speaker's cabinets, for reasons this picture will make obvious.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by arshishb View Post

But I am glad I have the pin points as I can actually pin point (no pun..) the Q300s to the listening area. The results have been very good for my ears & I like it that way.

Being able to rotate speakers is definitely a plus!

FWIW, the arrangement I almost always prefer with good speakers is to "overtoe" them, such that the axes actually cross ahead of the listening position. The difference is akin to going from listening to a concert from the first row to moving back to mid-hall. I prefer the mid-hall perspective.

If you haven't tried that, your mounts seem to make it an easy experiment.

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post #4968 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Screw from the side or the bottom? I couldn't tell from the picture.

(Side clamps are a no go on my reference speaker's cabinets, for reasons this picture will make obvious.)





Being able to rotate speakers is definitely a plus!

FWIW, the arrangement I almost always prefer with good speakers is to "overtoe" them, such that the axes actually cross ahead of the listening position. The difference is akin to going from listening to a concert from the first row to moving back to mid-hall. I prefer the mid-hall perspective.

If you haven't tried that, your mounts seem to make it an easy experiment.

Hmm they are side clamping but the clamps have holes in them in case you decide to screw the speakers in. Its amazon so you can always return them if it doesnt work out for you. They clamp the Q300s tight enough so I didnt screw them on.
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post #4969 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 05:47 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts ntrain96.

What do you recommend between the Kef iQ90 and Q900? My dealer reckons the iQ has better midrange and that the new Q series seems to be aimed at the youth market having a recessed mid-range and is overly "boomy". I suspect he has a bias though as he can no longer sell the new Kef's and prefers Paradigm. He reckons for instance a Paradigm Monitor 11 would kill the iQ90 in terms of Dynamics and Musicality.

After reading Stereophile reviews on the Q900 and other positive reviews on the new Kef's I'm not sure who to believe.

I am helping a friend and they have an Onkyo 608 running 3005SE 5.1. He wants to reuse the 608 for the iQ90 or Q900s and will keep the 3005SE sub.
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post #4970 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 06:38 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts ntrain96.

What do you recommend between the Kef iQ90 and Q900? My dealer reckons the iQ has better midrange and that the new Q series seems to be aimed at the youth market having a recessed mid-range and is overly "boomy". I suspect he has a bias though as he can no longer sell the new Kef's and prefers Paradigm. He reckons for instance a Paradigm Monitor 11 would kill the iQ90 in terms of Dynamics and Musicality.

After reading Stereophile reviews on the Q900 and other positive reviews on the new Kef's I'm not sure who to believe.

I am helping a friend and they have an Onkyo 608 running 3005SE 5.1. He wants to reuse the 608 for the iQ90 or Q900s and will keep the 3005SE sub.

The truth of the matter is that the new Q/R series Kef speakers are still fantastic sounding speakers. They still have great in room response. Be aware that my observations are in essense me nitpicking certain aspects of construction and design compared to the older series.

WIth that said, I personally prefer the older iQ series speakers vs. the newer Q series. The older iQ series speakers use the XQ driver which I feel is superior to the new Q drivers, regardless of the marketing jargon Kef and Kef dealers might try to toss out. We aren't talking a HUGE difference though, we are talking about minor sublte differences in reality.

But where there is a big difference I feel is in the cabinet design an construction. Even the vinyl laminated iQ series cabinet I feel is superior in overall build and bracing, and it looks a hell of alot better too. I know you can pick up a pair of brand new iQ90's online for about $900-$1000 shipped. Its a good deal if your looking for a tower. Also be aware though that you can score online a pair of XQ30's as well for about $1300-1400 for a pair. THe XQ 30 I feel is Kef's best sounding and measuring tower speaker, and it will give solid extension below 30hz surprisingly in room. Not sure what your dealer is asking for the iQ90's, but if its over $1k I would highly recommend trying to score the XQ30's.
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post #4971 of 6826 Old 04-23-2012, 08:51 PM
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DrewTT....thank You very much for Your kind words)
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hi guy,

currently thinking of upgrade my front (PSB Image B25) and Center (PSB Alpha C1) to KEF Q300 and Q200, so would think this is huge upgrade for me as i am currently using denon 3311 and will it make a great impact in term on movie and music as well if using the KEF speaker?

Thanks
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post #4973 of 6826 Old 04-24-2012, 10:05 AM
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hi guy,

currently thinking of upgrade my front (PSB Image B25) and Center (PSB Alpha C1) to KEF Q300 and Q200, so would think this is huge upgrade for me as i am currently using denon 3311 and will it make a great impact in term on movie and music as well if using the KEF speaker?

Thanks

Huge upgrade? No clue, only you can determine that on what you prefer for sound. The midrange(in terms of smooth fs response) and imaging though will potentially be an upgrade.
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post #4974 of 6826 Old 04-24-2012, 07:21 PM
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Huge upgrade? No clue, only you can determine that on what you prefer for sound. The midrange(in terms of smooth fs response) and imaging though will potentially be an upgrade.

for speaker cable what is best match with my denon 3311 and the kef q300 also q200

Thanks
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post #4975 of 6826 Old 04-24-2012, 07:22 PM
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for speaker cable what is best match with my denon 3311 and the kef q300 also q200

Thanks

Just basic thick gauge ofc wire is all you need.
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post #4976 of 6826 Old 04-25-2012, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squall12 View Post

for speaker cable what is best match with my denon 3311 and the kef q300 also q200

Thanks

There's no such thing as a speaker wire "match." It's just bloody wire. Don't overthink it, or let the fact that it's probably the highest-margin thing an audio dealer can sell you push you into buying the propaganda.

Choose the thickness of the wire based on the lengths you require. Here's a good chart: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire.htm

I generally prefer wire with PTFE (aka Teflon) insulation, because it generally has thinnest total diameter for a given wire thickness and is thus easier to hide. People who want to see their speaker wires should look for something with a thick PVC jacket.

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post #4977 of 6826 Old 04-25-2012, 08:01 AM
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My home theater has following set up:

Denon AVR 2310
Denon DVD 1740
POPCORNHOUR C200 with 2 TB (4 nos.)

Panasonic AX100E 720p projector and 110" screen

Speakers are:

Kef IQ5 (front L/R)
Kef IQ6C (Centre)
Kef IQ8ds (sides surr)
Kef IQ10 (rear surr)
Kef Kube1 (subwofer)

Room size is 12'-0"x17'-0" (screen on 12' side)

I want to change my subwoofer... anybody suggest good model for my setup...
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post #4978 of 6826 Old 04-25-2012, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkhatri View Post

My home theater has following set up:

Denon AVR 2310
Denon DVD 1740
POPCORNHOUR C200 with 2 TB (4 nos.)

Panasonic AX100E 720p projector and 110" screen

Speakers are:

Kef IQ5 (front L/R)
Kef IQ6C (Centre)
Kef IQ8ds (sides surr)
Kef IQ10 (rear surr)
Kef Kube1 (subwofer)

Room size is 12'-0"x17'-0" (screen on 12' side)

I want to change my subwoofer... anybody suggest good model for my setup...

WHy change it? Just add to it! Add a few more Kef Kube1 subs(you can get em for cheap) would be the first recommendation. BY doubling or tripling the effective cone displacement your going to add ALOT more bass, and it will be alot smoother too. By adding multiple subs you are able to lower your gains, which will reduce distortion, add low frequency extension, and smooth out in room response. That would be my first recommendation. Pick up a few more here for a really good price: http://www.accessories4less.com/make...r-Black/1.html

BY adding one or 2 more Kube1's you will gain a whole new experience with your low frequency response. Night and day difference.
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post #4979 of 6826 Old 04-25-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


Yes, with the bookshelves you would have to buy them in pairs, so that leaves you with an extra speaker. But a coherent front stage is, IMO worth it. Perhaps you can sell the third to someone who is in the same position.

Tell me about!

Damn KEF wouldn't sell me a single 201/2. I had to buy 3 pairs.

I tried to sell it on eBay, but no buyers.

Let me know if anyone wants to buy my single 201/2 that is sitting in my closet now in its original box.
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post #4980 of 6826 Old 04-25-2012, 12:12 PM
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Just fwiw > I was in my local Fry's yesterday and saw the Kef 3005 5.1 "egg" speaker system on, what looked like a close out, sale for $900.

The bad news; I didn't see any other Kef speakers and, perhaps this is old news but, a sales guy said that he didn't think that Fry's would be carrying Kef anymore.
.
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