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post #4981 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fkhatri View Post

My home theater has following set up:

Denon AVR 2310
Denon DVD 1740
POPCORNHOUR C200 with 2 TB (4 nos.)

Panasonic AX100E 720p projector and 110" screen

Speakers are:

Kef IQ5 (front L/R)
Kef IQ6C (Centre)
Kef IQ8ds (sides surr)
Kef IQ10 (rear surr)
Kef Kube1 (subwofer)

Room size is 12'-0"x17'-0" (screen on 12' side)

I want to change my subwoofer... anybody suggest good model for my setup...

Get an Outlaw LFM-1 EX and don't look back. They have sales once it twice a year and are popular on these forums. I absolutely love it paired with my IQ90's, IQ60c and IQ30's in my 11x26 room. Keep the Kube1 for near field.
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post #4982 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindmnkee3 View Post

Get an Outlaw LFM-1 EX and don't look back. They have sales once it twice a year and are popular on these forums. I absolutely love it paired with my IQ90's, IQ60c and IQ30's in my 11x26 room. Keep the Kube1 for near field.

FOr the price of one of those he could get 2 more Kube1's which would be a much better bang for the buck with ALOT more raw cone displacement. 3 Kube1's featuring six 8 inch drivers would make for a very nice and serious subwoofer setup for all but the very largest of home theater rooms.
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post #4983 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

FOr the price of one of those he could get 2 more Kube1's which would be a much better bang for the buck with ALOT more raw cone displacement. 3 Kube1's featuring six 8 inch drivers would make for a very nice and serious subwoofer setup for all but the very largest of home theater rooms.

He said he wanted something different, not more of the same. I have nothing against the Kube but I don't believe you can even really compare the two subs. The Kube 1 only dips down to 38 Hz with 2 8 inch drivers while the LFM-1 EX dips down to 16 Hz with a single long-throw 12 inch woofer powered by a 350 watt amp... Two completely different animals IMHO. For roughly 550, the LFM-1 EX on sale was a complete steal and my favorite part of my audio setup.
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post #4984 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 03:50 PM
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^Agreed, for HT, the Outlaw is a much better choice due to it's lower extension.
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post #4985 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindmnkee3 View Post

He said he wanted something different, not more of the same. I have nothing against the Kube but I don't believe you can even really compare the two subs. The Kube 1 only dips down to 38 Hz with 2 8 inch drivers while the LFM-1 EX dips down to 16 Hz with a single long-throw 12 inch woofer powered by a 350 watt amp... Two completely different animals IMHO. For roughly 550, the LFM-1 EX on sale was a complete steal and my favorite part of my audio setup.

You do NOT understand how to make bass or how to get low frequency extension.

1 SINGLE Kube 1 might only have anechoic 38hz extension, but 2 of them? Your now looking at USEABLE extension well below 20hz. A pair of Kube 1's have ALOT more cone displacement than a single 12" driver. The key is cone displacement.

My old HT setup had 4 Kef PSW2500's. Alone a single PSW2500 is about the same in performance as a Kube 1. But 4 of them together combined I was getting useable extension down to 14hz.

A pair of Kube 1's have more displacement than a single LFM-1 EX. And for the money for a single LFM-1 he could buy 2 more Kube-1's and have a total of 3 Kube-1's. You think a single 12" driver is going to give anywhere near the same bass performance or low frequency extension as 6 8" drivers? No chance. Not with half the power and half the cone displacement.

Just by him adding a few more Kube-1's would give him an entirely new experience, it would be like he bought an entirely new subwoofer setup and it would be a night and day difference. In his room size assuming 10' ceilings I calculate he will havesignificant useable extension BELOW 15hz.Low frequency bass is ALL ABOUT how much AIR you can MOVE.
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post #4986 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

You do NOT understand how to make bass or how to get low frequency extension.

1 SINGLE Kube 1 might only have anechoic 38hz extension, but 2 of them? Your now looking at USEABLE extension well below 20hz. A pair of Kube 1's have ALOT more cone displacement than a single 12" driver. The key is cone displacement.

My old HT setup had 4 Kef PSW2500's. Alone a single PSW2500 is about the same in performance as a Kube 1. But 4 of them together combined I was getting useable extension down to 14hz.

A pair of Kube 1's have more displacement than a single LFM-1 EX. And for the money for a single LFM-1 he could buy 2 more Kube-1's and have a total of 3 Kube-1's. You think a single 12" driver is going to give anywhere near the same bass performance or low frequency extension as 6 8" drivers? No chance. Not with half the power and half the cone displacement.

Just by him adding a few more Kube-1's would give him an entirely new experience, it would be like he bought an entirely new subwoofer setup and it would be a night and day difference. In his room size assuming 10' ceilings I calculate he will havesignificant useable extension BELOW 15hz.Low frequency bass is ALL ABOUT how much AIR you can MOVE.

You can't be serious...how did you come up with that?
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post #4987 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 11:45 PM
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I'm really at a loss for words to be honest. Care to explain the blatant hostility? Your right I don't understand how multiple subs rated at 38 Hz can now extend down to 14 Hz, but if that's what you got then great. You obviously care very much about your subwoofers, thank you for telling us how smart you are. I don't have the time, patience or interest to care that much. I apologize for getting off track, I was only offering what my very limited experience has been with what I feel to be a very, very good product for the price.
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post #4988 of 6991 Old 04-25-2012, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Tell me about!

Damn KEF wouldn't sell me a single 201/2. I had to buy 3 pairs.

I tried to sell it on eBay, but no buyers.

Let me know if anyone wants to buy my single 201/2 that is sitting in my closet now in its original box.

Saw that, Mr. denondefinitive

Fiancee wouldn't let me buy it.

Admittedly, my strategy was all wrong. I admitted up front that I didn't have the matching L-R speakers. I should've surreptitiously bought a pair, and then said "look, I can complete the front set! They'll be so much smaller than my current 16.5" wide speakers!"

(Though whether the 201/2's would be an upgrade over my reference Tannoy System 12 DMT II - based mains is, I think, an open question. Much prettier cabinets, though.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

1 SINGLE Kube 1 might only have anechoic 38hz extension, but 2 of them? Your now looking at USEABLE extension well below 20hz. A pair of Kube 1's have ALOT more cone displacement than a single 12" driver. The key is cone displacement.

Two problems with your argument.

First, your math is simply wrong.

A good long-throw 8 (the Peerless SLS8 is a representative example) will have a volume displacement of around 350cc. Even a good modest-throw 12" driver (let's use the Peerless XLS12 as a representative example) will have over a liter of volume displacement. So it would generally take 3, not 2, 8's to equal one 12. My 12" driver of choice, the Aurasound NS12-794-4A offers about 1750cc of volume displacement. It would take ~5 really good 8" subwoofer drivers to match its volume displacement.

Second, you make the assumption that the Kube doesn't have a steep high pass filter to protect the driver from overexcursion. Most commercial subs do. So they'll roll off more steeply regardless of the numbers employed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Just by him adding a few more Kube-1's would give him an entirely new experience, it would be like he bought an entirely new subwoofer setup and it would be a night and day difference.

I agree with that, but for an entirely different reason: the only way to get clean bass in the modal region of a typical domestic living room is to randomize room mode excitation by deploying and properly setting up multiple subwoofers.

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post #4989 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by blindmnkee3 View Post

I'm really at a loss for words to be honest. Care to explain the blatant hostility? Your right I don't understand how multiple subs rated at 38 Hz can now extend down to 14 Hz, but if that's what you got then great. You obviously care very much about your subwoofers, thank you for telling us how smart you are. I don't have the time, patience or interest to care that much. I apologize for getting off track, I was only offering what my very limited experience has been with what I feel to be a very, very good product for the price.

No hostility, but your making an inccorect assumption based of what is most likely anechoic specs, not in room response that does not take into account natural room gain. And when you add or run multiple subs thus increasing cone displacement you can basically just take the specs of a single unit and toss them out the window.
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post #4990 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Two problems with your argument.

First, your math is simply wrong.

A good long-throw 8 (the Peerless SLS8 is a representative example) will have a volume displacement of around 350cc. Even a good modest-throw 12" driver (let's use the Peerless XLS12 as a representative example) will have over a liter of volume displacement. So it would generally take 3, not 2, 8's to equal one 12. My 12" driver of choice, the Aurasound NS12-794-4A offers about 1750cc of volume displacement. It would take ~5 really good 8" subwoofer drivers to match its volume displacement.

Second, you make the assumption that the Kube doesn't have a steep high pass filter to protect the driver from overexcursion. Most commercial subs do. So they'll roll off more steeply regardless of the numbers employed.

Each Kef Kube 1 comes with 2 8" drivers. You can buy 2 Kube 1's for the price of one Outlaw LFM-1. A pair of Kube-1's will have more linear displacement than one single LFM-1 sub. So with a total of 3 Kube-1's the displacement will be ALOT more. My math isnt wrong at all. Even with an infrasonic filter(10hz on all Kef powered subs)in place he would still get significant output below 20hz. The 4 PSW2500's I have are capable of shaking a modest sized room quite well with if the audio track had enough infrasonic info recorded on it. If he bought another pair of Kube-1's to go with the one he currently had, he would have very similiar results. It would be an entirely new experience for him literally.
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post #4991 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 07:35 AM
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Too add some more fuel to the fire, the LFM-1 Plus is 499 shipped right now. Normally 550+ shipping I believe.
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post #4992 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Each Kef Kube 1 comes with 2 8" drivers.

I think you might be talking about a different sub. The Kube 1, according to KEF's website actually has a single 8, along with an 8" passive radiator.

Remember, a PR is functionally more-or-less equivalent to a port. It is means of trading bandwidth for efficiency. It gains considerably greater efficiency in the octave or so above the tuning frequency, but becomes a dipole below that frequency. Because of that change from monopole to dipole, a passive radiator sub (like a ported one) cannot pressurize a room below cutoff. (Note that the Hsu-Research-for-Outlaw sub others are discussing is also a vented design, and likewise cannot pressurize a room below its cutoff.)

Add to that physical fact the likely high-pass filter in the Kube-1's amp to protect the driver (the "dipole double whammy" is inability to pressurize a small room below cutoff, and massive excursion increase below its tuning), it is unlikely one will get much more extension out of 40 of them than one can get out of one of them.

Your experience with multiple closed-box sub does not and will not translate to vented subs, because a sealed sub stays monopole below cutoff, and can therefore pressurize a room down very low even if its apparent F3 is high.

That said, multiple closed box subs can and usually do act as you've observed, especially if they use amp limiting to control excursion rather than highpass filters. In the room's "1st mode" region (in a typical small room, <40Hz or so) the subs all sum more-or-less in phase, whereas in the modal region and above they sum incoherently. I personally much prefer multiple subwoofer systems based on closed boxes, or for more efficiency while still remaining monopoles, 4th order bandpass boxes. IMO, the best current value in subwoofers are the SVS SB12 and PB12. (For bigger closed-box subs, the Hsu ULS-15 strikes me as a good value.) You can't build a subwoofer with a driver of that quality (Peerless XXLS-12, which is far superior to the driver in the Outlaw sub) and that much power for what SVS charges. If I were starting from scratch, rather than building my own subs I'd likely just buy 3-5 SVS SB12's.

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post #4993 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 10:14 AM
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Anybody that knows if the Reference series is to be upgraded any time soon ?
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post #4994 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 10:18 AM
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Saw that, Mr. denondefinitive

Doh!

Busted!
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post #4995 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 10:29 AM
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Guys, I have a dilemma here.

I'm about to pull the trigger on dual Funk Audio 18.0 TSAD18v1 subs.

http://www.funkaudio.ca/18.0.html

But I have not decided on which veneer/finish.

If I pair them up with my KEF Reference 201/2 (5.1 HT), then I would get Cherry.

If I pair them up with Revel Salon2 (2.1), then I would get Mahogany.

The other speaker (not getting FW18.0) would get dual Rythmik D15SE.

Decisions decisions.
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post #4996 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I think you might be talking about a different sub. The Kube 1, according to KEF's website actually has a single 8, along with an 8" passive radiator.

Remember, a PR is functionally more-or-less equivalent to a port. It is means of trading bandwidth for efficiency. It gains considerably greater efficiency in the octave or so above the tuning frequency, but becomes a dipole below that frequency. Because of that change from monopole to dipole, a passive radiator sub (like a ported one) cannot pressurize a room below cutoff. (Note that the Hsu-Research-for-Outlaw sub others are discussing is also a vented design, and likewise cannot pressurize a room below its cutoff.)

Add to that physical fact the likely high-pass filter in the Kube-1's amp to protect the driver (the "dipole double whammy" is inability to pressurize a small room below cutoff, and massive excursion increase below its tuning), it is unlikely one will get much more extension out of 40 of them than one can get out of one of them.

Your experience with multiple closed-box sub does not and will not translate to vented subs, because a sealed sub stays monopole below cutoff, and can therefore pressurize a room down very low even if its apparent F3 is high.

That said, multiple closed box subs can and usually do act as you've observed, especially if they use amp limiting to control excursion rather than highpass filters. In the room's "1st mode" region (in a typical small room, <40Hz or so) the subs all sum more-or-less in phase, whereas in the modal region and above they sum incoherently. I personally much prefer multiple subwoofer systems based on closed boxes, or for more efficiency while still remaining monopoles, 4th order bandpass boxes. IMO, the best current value in subwoofers are the SVS SB12 and PB12. (For bigger closed-box subs, the Hsu ULS-15 strikes me as a good value.) You can't build a subwoofer with a driver of that quality (Peerless XXLS-12, which is far superior to the driver in the Outlaw sub) and that much power for what SVS charges. If I were starting from scratch, rather than building my own subs I'd likely just buy 3-5 SVS SB12's.

Yep, and a port is = to 3db gain roughly. Same with a passive radiator, thus its a dual 8" driver.....PR or not. Anytime you double up the cone area, you add 3db roughly.

Again Id take 3 Kube-1's over the single 12" sub mentioned not even thinking twice about it.
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post #4997 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Yep, and a port is = to 3db gain roughly. Same with a passive radiator, thus its a dual 8" driver.....PR or not. Anytime you double up the cone area, you add 3db roughly.

Your reply indicates that you did understood the text you quoted. You should re-read it.

A resonant system (PR/vent) allows one to gain quite a bit of output above tuning, at the cost of losing everything below it. Trade efficiency for bandwidth.

Furthermore, a PR does not result in "doubling cone area," any more than adding a vent would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Guys, I have a dilemma here.

I'm about to pull the trigger on dual Funk Audio 18.0 TSAD18v1 subs.
***
If I pair them up with my KEF Reference 201/2 (5.1 HT), then I would get Cherry.

If I pair them up with Revel Salon2 (2.1), then I would get Mahogany.

The other speaker (not getting FW18.0) would get dual Rythmik D15SE ***

You'll love Nathan's craftsmanship.

Given the compromised top end of the Rythmik, and superior extension of the Revels, I'd use the Rythmiks with the Revels and the Funks with the KEFs. Though actually I'd sell the Rythmiks and pick up more flexible subs.

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post #4998 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Your reply indicates that you did understood the text you quoted. You should re-read it.

A resonant system (PR/vent) allows one to gain quite a bit of output above tuning, at the cost of losing everything below it. Trade efficiency for bandwidth.

Furthermore, a PR does not result in "doubling cone area," any more than adding a vent would.



You'll love Nathan's craftsmanship.

Given the compromised top end of the Rythmik, and superior extension of the Revels, I'd use the Rythmiks with the Revels and the Funks with the KEFs. Though actually I'd sell the Rythmiks and pick up more flexible subs.

Actually a PR does effectively double the cone area......I understand your a great white paper jockey, but real world performance is a different animal.

Also, the RYthmik top end is far from compromised.....if you've never had first hand experience with it in an actual room setting, then why try to state what it can or cannot do? If it can blend seamlessly into a pair of small XQ10 bookshelves at a higher than norm xover point, Im sure the high frequency extension is far from compromised.

BTW, still waiting on a link to the gentleman who posted measurements on the FV15HP....
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post #4999 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:09 PM
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How would you compare the IQ90 to the 683s and the IQ70s to the 684? I currently have a pair of IQ70's/IQ60 which I like very much...... Just wondering if I were to upgrade to the larger models how would the two compare or how would the 684s compare to the IQ70's? and how does the IQ60 compare the the HTM61 center
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post #5000 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Actually a PR does effectively double the cone area......I understand your a great white paper jockey, but real world performance is a different animal.

In this case, you're simply wrong, and throwing out insults that make you look ignorant don't change that fact. Move on.

As for your "white paper jockey" idiocy, why not post some of your own measurements? You do take them, right?

Here is an in-room measurement for a multisub system using three passive-radiator subs (a DIY unit with a Peerless XLS-12 and their PR, and two DIY HTB2's) you may find instructive: the un-EQ'ed response after setting them up using Dr. Earl Geddes' sequential calibration techniques:



Anyone who can competently analyze data will note immediately that the low end response is double-humped. There is a rolloff at ~35Hz corresponding to the cutoff of the HTB2's, and a rolloff at ~20Hz corresponding to the rolloff of the DIY Peerless XLS12-based sub.

The higher-tuned subs did not materially contribute to the in-room response below their cutoff.

For the record, here are the individual response curves for each KEF HTB2, prior to EQ:

Left side wall, close to the listening position:


Right side wall, to the side of and just just barely ahead of the right speaker:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Also, the RYthmik top end is far from compromised.....if you've never had first hand experience with it in an actual room setting, then why try to state what it can or cannot do?

What makes you assume I don't?

And seriously, if you're not smart enough to find the piece based on the already-provided information...

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post #5001 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

In this case, you're simply wrong, and throwing out insults that make you look ignorant don't change that fact. Move on.

Do you want me to show you my in-room measurements of three passive-radiator subs (a DIY unit with a Peerless XLS-12 and their PR, and two DIY HTB2's).



What makes you assume I don't?

And seriously, if you're not smart enough to find the piece based on the already-provided information...

Actually, if you were SMART enough to just state it, all you had to do was state that its the Audioholics sub shootout review. SImple as that.

And btw......I just went over the tests.......big things that you failed to mention.....it was tested with the LIMITER on and the orientation of the ground plane testing method for the Rythmik sub........if you go over to the Rythmik discussion thread you will see how that having the limiter on effects the response curve at or near max outpu, along with some of the flaws in the AUdioholics test concerning response curve. Using the ground plane method OUTSIDE off cone center(between ports and cone)which will obviously show an exxageration at certain frequencies.......Anechoic on axis response curve will be different, and so will an in room response measurement. Again, your over analyzing and recommending(or not)things not based on actual experience, but on what you soley read and comprehend(whether its right or wrong)online from articles that even themselves state are still in many ways a flawed test.

Edited to add that even the plate amp used in that FV15HP was a previous generation unit. And the text did not mention how or where the xover was set at........again there are just tons of small inconsistencies and flaws concerning this test(which even the testers themselves ADMITTED)........

Concerning the PR designs, if you have a way of doing a fair apples to apples comparison, Id love to delve into it, but you don't, the measurements shown and explained again have the potential for too many holes in some of your arguments......

Again if Im coming off as a bit rude, its because your tossing out info(opinion based alot of times) that just isnt outright true, based on your inability to take the info your've aquired from online articles in proper context to its FULLEST....like the "compromised" high frequency extension of the Rythmik subs........100% untrue, and something you wouldnt have stated if you actually had hands on experience with these subs and knew the plate amps well.
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post #5002 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:38 PM
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You'll love Nathan's craftsmanship.

Given the compromised top end of the Rythmik, and superior extension of the Revels, I'd use the Rythmiks with the Revels and the Funks with the KEFs. Though actually I'd sell the Rythmiks and pick up more flexible subs.

I believe I will match KEF+FA & Revel+Rythmik.

Sounds like Keffa & Revmik.

But regarding the Rythmik, I believe it depends on the sub amp settings. If you set to "AVR", it goes to 100Hz. But if you set to "LFE", it goes to 200Hz:



http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../subs/f15.html
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post #5003 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:40 PM
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Wow, and I thought this was a KEF thread
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post #5004 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:41 PM
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Wow, and I thought this was a KEF thread


yea I'm getting real sick of it myself, just about to unsubscribe from this thread, all from 1 poster.
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post #5005 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Actually, if you were SMART enough to just state it, all you had to do was state that its the Audioholics sub shootout review. SImple as that.

Nope. It's a later test (reported last May) and not to my knowledge reported on AH.

Here's another hint:

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post #5006 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Nope. It's a later test (reported last May) and not to my knowledge reported on AH.

Here's another hint:

Its an older generation plate amp, and the settings are not listed.......and there are a TON of settings to be made on this plate amp that can affect upper and lower frequency extensions........Sorry when you can post your OWN measurements in room on the sub in question........feel free to get back to us.....otherwise its just false opinion based on what your reading.
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post #5007 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cream puff View Post

yea I'm getting real sick of it myself, just about to unsubscribe from this thread, all from 1 poster.

I think there is an ignore feature on here somewhere.
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post #5008 of 6991 Old 04-26-2012, 01:24 PM
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Back on topic ? Anyone ?


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Anybody that knows if the Reference series is to be upgraded any time soon ?

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post #5009 of 6991 Old 04-27-2012, 06:51 AM
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Anybody that knows if the Reference series is to be upgraded any time soon ?

Highly doubtful........consider the "R" series the new "reference" series now........they measure out better as it is(well at least the R300 vs. the 201/2).
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post #5010 of 6991 Old 04-27-2012, 08:11 AM
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Just thought I would chime in...just picked up my first KEFs yesterday. Got a great CL deal on a pair of Reference Model Two's in nearly new condition. Powering them with a Pioneer Elite VSX 47tx and they sound fantastic. I guess I could read all 167 pages but are there any thoughts to the matching of NAD amplifiers with KEFs, more specifically, the Model Twos?
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