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post #5011 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 07:45 AM
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Fair point, all. Rather than further goad another poster into spinning excuses for an overdesigned/underthought product not even made by KEF, you might be interested in reading my thoughts on the Reference 201/2 in my new blog.

(I didn't mention any bigger Reference line speakers simply because I haven't heard any.)

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post #5012 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Fair point, all. Rather than further goad another poster into spinning excuses for an overdesigned/underthought product not even made by KEF, you might be interested in reading my thoughts on the Reference 201/2 in my new blog.

(I didn't mention any bigger Reference line speakers simply because I haven't heard any.)

Thanks.

I do like my KEF Reference 201/2 a lot, all SIX of them (even the one in the closet ).

Since I watch movies a little more often than listening to music, I do use my KEF the most. I guess when I get a bigger house, I'll make the KEF 6.1, instead of 5.1.
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post #5013 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Soundastherapy View Post

Just thought I would chime in...just picked up my first KEFs yesterday. Got a great CL deal on a pair of Reference Model Two's in nearly new condition. Powering them with a Pioneer Elite VSX 47tx and they sound fantastic. I guess I could read all 167 pages but are there any thoughts to the matching of NAD amplifiers with KEFs, more specifically, the Model Twos?

Model 2's are fantastic speakers. I still have a pair myself. Larger force cancellation chamber and still feature a single front UniQ driver. In essense a large monitor style speaker. If you picked up a set in mint condition, then look on Ebay and secure yourself a pair of NOS drivers for it for backup. Great score. As long as you have an amp thats truely 4 ohm stable with some good headroom power you will be fine. The older reference speakers sound their best with amps that have lots of headroom.
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post #5014 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Fair point, all. Rather than further goad another poster into spinning excuses for an overdesigned/underthought product not even made by KEF.....

I guess its better than spinning excuses for making posts to begin with based only on poor reading compreshension and maneuvering to take things well out of context for one's own argument.

If that "blog" you linked us to is any indication its 100% proof positive of exaxtly my point of you being a white paper jockey.

Case in point from your blog:
Quote:
The first measurement people generally consider is the summed nearfield on-axis response, also called the "direct field" response. The small rise in the upper bass is an artifact of the measurement technique, and unavoidable.

But when you bring up the measurement on a sub's top end extension that you claim is flawed [/quote] Given the compromised top end of the Rythmik [/quote] that also uses a ground plane nearfield response technique where they center the mic closer to the PORTS vs. on the cones axis(same flawed technique basically)it seems to be acceptable in ones eyes.

If you don't want to "goad" another poster, then maybe its time to take into consideration that article specs and measurements only go so far in actually understanding and knowing the performance abilities of a product in question.

BTW: Your blog is also wrong in that you can't buy 201/2's seperately.......you can actually.
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post #5015 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Model 2's are fantastic speakers. I still have a pair myself. Larger force cancellation chamber and still feature a single front UniQ driver. In essense a large monitor style speaker. If you picked up a set in mint condition, then look on Ebay and secure yourself a pair of NOS drivers for it for backup. Great score. As long as you have an amp thats truely 4 ohm stable with some good headroom power you will be fine. The older reference speakers sound their best with amps that have lots of headroom.

Good idea about the drivers. I can already see myself hanging on to these for a while. They sound good powered by the receiver but I know they will sound better with a different amp. I am going to keep an out out for a Conrad Johnson MF2500 (solid state), Musical Fidelity 3.2CR, Krell KAV-250a, 2x NAD C272(bridged mode), or something old school like the Denon POA-4400. Any thoughts on these or others I should look out for?
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post #5016 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Soundastherapy View Post

Good idea about the drivers. I can already see myself hanging on to these for a while. They sound good powered by the receiver but I know they will sound better with a different amp. I am going to keep an out out for a Conrad Johnson MF2500 (solid state), Musical Fidelity 3.2CR, Krell KAV-250a, 2x NAD C272(bridged mode), or something old school like the Denon POA-4400. Any thoughts on these or others I should look out for?

You mean other amps you should be on the lookout for?

One amp you find time to time on Audiogon or Ebay is the Aragon 8008BB. Ive seen mint condition 8008's going for $900-1500. A fantasic solid state amp, no frills, no BS, just plenty of CLEAN(read dry sounding)power and stable to below 2ohms. I have the Palladium block versions of this amp. When Kef made the "Reference X" series back in the 90's the Aragon amps were a very popular pairing for them and rightly so.

Anyway, awesome score on those speakers, you should post up some pics when you get a chance......love to see your score.

Oh, also, most likely you will have noticed the binding posts are coroding/flaking away........you can also score a set of NOS posts on Ebay too many times, or just swap them out for a nice pair of Nak binding posts as well. And if you like to tinker/DIY a lil bit there are alot of things you can do to improve the damping abilities of the cabinet, upgrades to the stock xover etc......loads of potential with these gems.
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post #5017 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundastherapy View Post

Just thought I would chime in...just picked up my first KEFs yesterday. Got a great CL deal on a pair of Reference Model Two's in nearly new condition. Powering them with a Pioneer Elite VSX 47tx and they sound fantastic. I guess I could read all 167 pages but are there any thoughts to the matching of NAD amplifiers with KEFs, more specifically, the Model Twos?

I wouldn't buy a new amp. Your Pioneer AVR will get everything out of the Model Twos (or any other well-engineered speaker) that it has to offer. (Which is far, far more than most speakers have to offer.)

However, if you already have the NAD, and want to use it, go ahead. It'll be equally fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

But when you bring up the measurement on a sub's top end extension that you claim is flawed

Given the compromised top end of the Rythmik [/quote] that also uses a ground plane nearfield response technique where they center the mic closer to the PORTS vs. on the cones axis(same flawed technique basically)it seems to be acceptable in ones eyes. :roll eyes:[/quote]

Last post to you, to clear up yet another error in your "reasoning" that may confuse others. First, the measurements I posted were from, I believe, 10' back. At 10', the difference between distance of the ports and the driver to the mike are de minimis. Second, if your assumption of nearfield measurements were true, that would make my position stronger, not weaker. Nearfield measurements exaggerate the upper bass, not the whole bass spectrum. So if it were nearfield measurement, the true 80-150Hz response would be even more rolled off than the measurements show!

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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

BTW: Your blog is also wrong in that you can't buy 201/2's seperately.......you can actually.

I've tried three times at two authorized dealers in two cities over the span of three years to get 3 Ref 201/2's without having to buy two pairs. Please contact me via PM with the name and contact info for an authorized KEF dealer who will sell me three Ref 201/2's, preferably in satin black, rather than requiring a purchase of two pairs. I'm interested.

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post #5018 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

BTW: Your blog is also wrong in that you can't buy 201/2's seperately.......you can actually.

I've asked 4 KEF dealers. I even talked to KEF Direct. They will not sell a single 201/2. If they did, I would have done that, instead of buying 3 pairs.

I even asked a guy on Audiogon if he were willing to sell me a single for half price of the pair, but he would not.
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post #5019 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I've asked 4 KEF dealers. I even talked to KEF Direct. They will not sell a single 201/2. If they did, I would have done that, instead of buying 3 pairs.

I even asked a guy on Audiogon if he were willing to sell me a single for half price of the pair, but he would not.

You have to know who to talk to, but even online Ive seen a few places sell them in single quantity. One place that used to was Onecall, but I think they are discontinuing stocking of Kef.....Vann's used to also......Elegant Audio/video I believe sells em solo........but I dont think they are an "authorized" dealer......if that matters even.
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post #5020 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I wouldn't buy a new amp. Your Pioneer AVR will get everything out of the Model Twos (or any other well-engineered speaker) that it has to offer. (Which is far, far more than most speakers have to offer.)

However, if you already have the NAD, and want to use it, go ahead. It'll be equally fine.

Given the compromised top end of the Rythmik

that also uses a ground plane nearfield response technique where they center the mic closer to the PORTS vs. on the cones axis(same flawed technique basically)it seems to be acceptable in ones eyes. :roll eyes:[/quote]

Last post to you, to clear up yet another error in your "reasoning" that may confuse others. First, the measurements I posted were from, I believe, 10' back. At 10', the difference between distance of the ports and the driver to the mike are de minimis. Second, if your assumption of nearfield measurements were true, that would make my position stronger, not weaker. Nearfield measurements exaggerate the upper bass, not the whole bass spectrum. So if it were nearfield measurement, the true 80-150Hz response would be even more rolled off than the measurements show! [/quote]

Not when there is a direct radiating port involved, it doesnt always give accurate results, but regardless, again there was no mention of which plate amp was used and what the xover control was set to. As mentioned previously by another here different settings on the plate amp ='s different response feedback. Nothing was mentioned about which specific generation plate amp was used, nor how the xover, limiter etc was set up. Again this is where white paper jockying and throwing out opinions based on it isn't in the best interest potentially for others. I've got quite a few Rythmik subs.......and their high frequency extension in room shows different response compared to what your own opinion expresses. And even if there is a slight roll off above 100hz as you claim, its not enough where its audible in room or where it hurts SQ and blend potential to really small monitors, like the XQ10's I use in one setup. And thats all that really matters.

I like measurements as much as you or anyone else, and I do use them to a certain extent(and within the proper context), as they can give a good baseline, but they should not be used as the definitive source on making a judgement call on their real world SQ potential. Thats what your ears are for in the end from hands on experience.

Just like the Audioholics 4 sub review where an ES sample of the FV15HP was used in the shootout. THose measurements were good for some things, but one big flaw that was discussed many months back was that people were looking too hard at some of the order harmonic distortion measurements because they were done so at max spl at and just below amp/driver clipping.

How often do you drive your equipment that hard to or near clipping? I for one would never. If I feel I dont get enough output from a single sub, then Ill add another(or more) for the many various benefits discussed on multiple threads. WIth that being said, the review should have also given distortion/response measurements at differing power/output levels(A few watts for example) well below their max output level. RMSwise subs and speakers only see a few watts under normal conditions with quick dynamic bursts of a few hundred watts on occasion. If your driving your speakers and subs past that point, then you need to add multiple units or think about picking up another single unit that is capable of the output desired below its rms threshold if thats all you have room for.

BTW, the older Kef "Reference X" series speakers will run on a typical 4ohm stable AVR your right, but they sound their best when they are run by a dedicated amp that is designed for 4ohm loads or less. The older Reference series speakers are true 4ohm loads with a few dips in the 2ohm range. An amp thats capable of 2-400 watts rms is recommended without question. One reason why the old Aragon 8008 was such a popular choice for them. At 8ohms you get a clean 200 watts, at 4ohms you double it to 400 watts. Those Model 2's will take full advantage of that type of power and sound their best. That 47tx at 6ohm's puts down 160 watts(claimed), and I know at low and moderate volumes it will be ok, but I wouldn't doubt that the AVR gets pretty warm running those R2's and bet the sound will be a bit grainy and thin on dynamics at higher volumes compared to an amp designed for lower impedance loads.
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post #5021 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

You have to know who to talk to, but even online Ive seen a few places sell them in single quantity. One place that used to was Onecall, but I think they are discontinuing stocking of Kef.....Vann's used to also......Elegant Audio/video I believe sells em solo........but I dont think they are an "authorized" dealer......if that matters even.

I have talked to Onecall, Vanns, Elegant AV/Independent AV (same company = Mark Herman) , Digitalcraze, and some other places that supposedly sell them as singles.

I've talked to the same places several times thinking one of them might change their mind.

I've talked to Mark Herman like a dozen times. I can recognize his voice on the phone.

But after I talked to them, they ALL 100% said the same thing - they cannot order the 201/2 as a single piece, authorized dealer or not.

It cannot be done unless you can find another buyer who wants the same thing and work it out personally. Or find it on eBay or Audiogon, which I've tried for a year without luck.

So if anyone is looking for a single, let me know. I have one in my closet.
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post #5022 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I have talked to Onecall, Vanns, Elegant AV/Independent AV (same company = Mark Herman) , Digitalcraze, and some other places that supposedly sell them as singles.

I've talked to the same places several times thinking one of them might change their mind.

I've talked to Mark Herman like a dozen times. I can recognize his voice on the phone.

But after I talked to them, they ALL 100% said the same thing - they cannot order the 201/2 as a single piece, authorized dealer or not.

It cannot be done unless you can find another buyer who wants the same thing and work it out personally. Or find it on eBay or Audiogon, which I've tried for a year without luck.

So if anyone is looking for a single, let me know. I have one in my closet.

With Vann's and Onecall, if they don't now, then that is a policy change, but a few years back a few people on the Agon forums had no problem getting in singles. Again, if this is recent, then try Elegant Audio/Video this conversation came up over the winter and another member was able to score a single one.

Not sure why you're looking for a single one(extra pair to sell off?), but here is what I would do. Keep the single one you have........now you have a SPARE xover, set of drivers, and cabinet so if something ever happens to any of the ones you have(via accidental cabinet damage)you now have field serviceable parts on hand. Considering Kef is not doing great financially currently like it has in the past it might be a smart thing to do. Its why I have stockpiled parts for my XQ monitors and Ref 2 speakers so if Kef goes belly up or the speakers are out of warranty Im not stuck with a permanently toasted unit.
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post #5023 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

try Elegant Audio/Video this conversation came up over the winter and another member was able to score a single one.

Mark Herman is Elegant Audio Video & Independent Audio Video. When you call them, chances are you are talking to Mark. He makes the decisions there. He is the boss.

I have Mark on my phone & email. I still refer people to Mark. I just referred someone to Mark last week. I just spoke to Mark last week.

It is a FACT that Mark (Elegant AV) cannot sell you a single 201/2.

It is a fact. Not an opinion. It is a fact.
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post #5024 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Highly doubtful........consider the "R" series the new "reference" series now........they measure out better as it is(well at least the R300 vs. the 201/2).

Huh? You've been saying all along that the R series measure worse than the XQ series. And from the measurements I've seen at Stereophile and from Soundstage, the 201/2 is about the best measuring speaker around. So how do these two apparent contradictions add up?

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #5025 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 03:17 PM
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Huh? You've been saying all along that the R series measure worse than the XQ series. And from the measurements I've seen at Stereophile and from Soundstage, the 201/2 is about the best measuring speaker around. So how do these two apparent contradictions add up?

No contradictions at all. Read back.....yes the the R300 doesnt quite match up to the XQ20's or 10's in the midrange. Neither does the 201/2, most likely because its a 3 way design with the midrange being broken up twice by xover points in similiar fashion and the port designation, neither the R300 or 201/2 though is technically a point source monitor. But If I had to take one or the other(R300 vs. 201/2) though Id take the R300, as it was a bit smoother through the midrange frequencies and upper treble, on and off axis. The only big issue I have with the R300 is the rear firing port, which makes room placement more limited to get a smooth bass response, with the 201/2 it wasn't quite as bad(but still alot more finiky thatn the XQ monitors). Again as stated previously we arent talking huge monstrous differences here. If I had a choice between any of these vs. what else is on the market, any of these would be near the top of the list. I just have a big preference towards 2 way monitor setups, less xover components in the signal path, simpler design etc. THe XQ10's and 20's also have the added bonus of a front firing port that can be plugged, makes for much easier room placement/tuning. Couple that with a very nice Reference quality veneer'd cabinet and alot of nice elegant touches for the price available and its just one of Kef's best bang for the buck bargains. I traded my 201/2's in for the 20's picked up a few matching subs and bought 2 pairs of XQ10's and a 50c as well shortly after.

The one R speaker I am highly considering buying though is the R100, which I can score for pretty cheap money. Id like to get my hands on one for a week or 2 for "audition" to see how it measures out and sounds setup in my HT/music room. The symetrical "B(MT)B" design of the R500 I would love to hear as well, and would love to hear it/AB against the much older Reference 2 floorstander.
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post #5026 of 6780 Old 04-27-2012, 09:29 PM
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I am looking to add on to my existing Kef KHT3000 SE 5.1 set up. What center channel speaker would work with this set up?

I was hoping to:

1. Replace the existing Center Channel with a KEF Classic Q Series iQ60c Center Channel Speaker.

2. Move the existing KHT to the right

3. Buy a second KHT center and move it to the left

4. Move my existing right and left to the 6 and 7 position for rear surround.

Would that work or is there a better way to upgrade the set up?

Please advise,
Chad
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post #5027 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 06:06 AM
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I am looking to add on to my existing Kef KHT3000 SE 5.1 set up. What center channel speaker would work with this set up?

I was hoping to:

1. Replace the existing Center Channel with a KEF Classic Q Series iQ60c Center Channel Speaker.

2. Move the existing KHT to the right

3. Buy a second KHT center and move it to the left

4. Move my existing right and left to the 6 and 7 position for rear surround.

Would that work or is there a better way to upgrade the set up?

Please advise,
Chad

Before I give any recommendation, just curious about your setup. I assume this is a small HT setup considering what you already have on hand? Second, you do know that 99.99% of the blu-rays out there are mixed STILL in 5.1 surround? There is little program material that is 7.1 natively mixed.......

Just curious, how does the setup sound to you now? Do you feel your lacking something?
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post #5028 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 06:55 AM
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It just feels so "cheap" that the REF series use regular paper cones.


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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Huh? You've been saying all along that the R series measure worse than the XQ series. And from the measurements I've seen at Stereophile and from Soundstage, the 201/2 is about the best measuring speaker around. So how do these two apparent contradictions add up?

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post #5029 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 07:09 AM
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It just feels so "cheap" that the REF series use regular paper cones.

Errr, a paper cone definetly does not mean cheap, but the midrange driver is not paper. The bass drivers are pulp composite, the midrange driver is basically the same material and shape as whats on the XQ series without the titanium coating.
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post #5030 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 07:16 AM
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Im having a really hard time deciding if to go with the Audiovector Si3 Avantgarde Arreté or the Kef Reference 203/2.

Any thoughts ?
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post #5031 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 07:25 AM
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Im having a really hard time deciding if to go with the Audiovector Si3 Avantgarde Arreté or the Kef Reference 203/2.

Any thoughts ?

No expereince with the Si3's.....never heard em......I personally don't like tower speakers though regardless, so my recommendations would be neither.......I prefer high quality monitors with a pair of high quality subs........allows for better setup and integration, and many times costs significantly cheaper money. Tower speakers dont allow you the same flexibility to place for best imaging and bass response and your normally stuck with bass response thats less than impressive through a passive cabinet design.
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post #5032 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Before I give any recommendation, just curious about your setup. I assume this is a small HT setup considering what you already have on hand? Second, you do know that 99.99% of the blu-rays out there are mixed STILL in 5.1 surround? There is little program material that is 7.1 natively mixed.......

Just curious, how does the setup sound to you now? Do you feel your lacking something?

I feel that the whole system is understated. I have it as a home theater set up in a room about 450 sqft. The center channel in particular is what I wan to beef up. I am having trouble figuring out what will pair with this system if I want to upgrade the center channel.

Thanks for your response
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post #5033 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 05:21 PM
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I feel that the whole system is understated. I have it as a home theater set up in a room about 450 sqft. The center channel in particular is what I wan to beef up. I am having trouble figuring out what will pair with this system if I want to upgrade the center channel.

Thanks for your response

So we are talking a living room roughly 18x26'? Or something similiar? Something like a Kef Q200c would give you a nice boost in output. About $350 online. If you can find an iQ60c too, will also give fine results, both are comparable in output and response curve.
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post #5034 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

So we are talking a living room roughly 18x26'? Or something similiar? Something like a Kef Q200c would give you a nice boost in output. About $350 online. If you can find an iQ60c too, will also give fine results, both are comparable in output and response curve.

Thanks for the quick response.

I can get the iQ60c from newegg for $280. I was thinking that might work.

The Q200c is running $338 at accessories4less.

Which center channel is better and would integrate with my systems?
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post #5035 of 6780 Old 04-28-2012, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by chcallander View Post

Thanks for the quick response.

I can get the iQ60c from newegg for $280. I was thinking that might work.

The Q200c is running $338 at accessories4less.

Which center channel is better and would integrate with my systems?

I personally think the iQ60c is a better deal, and the cabinet and driver is a small step up IMO too. Regardless both are more than competent and will do a great job, so Id go with the iQ60c and pocket the $60 saved.
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post #5036 of 6780 Old 04-29-2012, 01:46 AM
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What you guys think of the Tweeter in the REF series ? Saw some review that the stated that the tweeter was not "top-notch" especially compared to the midrange and bass.
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post #5037 of 6780 Old 04-29-2012, 06:01 AM
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What you guys think of the Tweeter in the REF series ? Saw some review that the stated that the tweeter was not "top-notch" especially compared to the midrange and bass.

The tweeter in which speaker, specifically?
The Reference line has been around for decades, and used quite a few different tweeters in their speaker designs. The ones in my 104/2s, model 90, 100, and 200C are all terrific.

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post #5038 of 6780 Old 04-29-2012, 06:14 AM
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Oh, sorry. I ment the 203/2


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The tweeter in which speaker, specifically?
The Reference line has been around for decades, and used quite a few different tweeters in their speaker designs. The ones in my 104/2s, model 90, 100, and 200C are all terrific.

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post #5039 of 6780 Old 04-29-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SweElite View Post

What you guys think of the Tweeter in the REF series ? Saw some review that the stated that the tweeter was not "top-notch" especially compared to the midrange and bass.

I have 205/2s. They sound fantastic. Upper end is clear and well balanced to my ears. Most of the reviews for the 205/2s and 207/2s have been very positive.. SJ
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post #5040 of 6780 Old 04-29-2012, 09:07 AM
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What you guys think of the Tweeter in the REF series ? Saw some review that the stated that the tweeter was not "top-notch" especially compared to the midrange and bass.

Most pro reviews are near worthless......its just paid advertising...........if you have the budget to buy a speaker like this, then best thing to do is to go demo them for yourself, because your going to get biased opinions, in a KEF thread....all the Kef owners here are most likely fans of the product and their speakers. The reference line from Kef regardless though is a quality product. I sold em for years, and still own quite a few pairs of their products. I personally though prefer their XQ monitors and older Reference series back from the 90's for various reasons I posted previously in this thread.
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