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post #5131 of 6778 Old 05-20-2012, 06:36 AM
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What speaker cables do you guys recommend for the REF 2 series ?
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post #5132 of 6778 Old 05-20-2012, 03:14 PM
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I make my own, like so...


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post #5133 of 6778 Old 05-21-2012, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SweElite View Post

What speaker cables do you guys recommend for the REF 2 series ?

Anything 16AWG and up. 14AWG or 12AWG if you have very long runs.

And if anyone tries to sell you on the "sound" of a speaker wire, run away from them. They are simply deluded, or they have a pecuniary interest in spreading audio mythology.

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post #5134 of 6778 Old 05-21-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Anything 16AWG and up. 14AWG or 12AWG if you have very long runs.

And if anyone tries to sell you on the "sound" of a speaker wire, run away from them. They are simply deluded, or they have a pecuniary interest in spreading audio mythology.

Not true. Speaker cables might be similar for digital cable, but for analog cabling there clearly is a difference. When I upgraded my cables from stock 'RS' to Wirewold biwire even my wife (!!!) could hear the difference.

Question: have ever tried yourself a good pair of speaker cables?

Anyway, we shouldn't make this a 'cables' thread. To OP: it depends on your budget, if you watch movies or play music (and what kind of music?). I would search for some speaker cable reviews (plenty online) and get a cable that fits your budges. The golden rule is 10% of your budget should be cabling. For a Ref 2 that would translate into a $100-$150 cable IMHO.
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post #5135 of 6778 Old 05-22-2012, 01:54 AM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello. Just joined this site, I used it for reference when I constructed my home cinema room 5 years ago (which was knocked down last week) to build an extension to move my father in law to move in This week the builders are in to start work on my new room. I was running a marrantz amp with the Kef KHT 1005 speakers in a room that was 16 foot by 8 foot. The new room is 17 foot by 11 foot so I am looking to move up to 7.1. I need to be able to walk past the side surrounds so was looking at adding a pair of Kef (because I have been pleased with what I have had) T101 would this be a good idea?

I am thinking of upgrading to one of the Onkyo units as I am probably going to instal the Optima HD33 and have a bit of 3D action.
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post #5136 of 6778 Old 05-22-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

Not true. Speaker cables might be similar for digital cable, but for analog cabling there clearly is a difference. When I upgraded my cables from stock 'RS' to Wirewold biwire even my wife (!!!) could hear the difference.

Question: have ever tried yourself a good pair of speaker cables?

Anyway, we shouldn't make this a 'cables' thread. To OP: it depends on your budget, if you watch movies or play music (and what kind of music?). I would search for some speaker cable reviews (plenty online) and get a cable that fits your budges. The golden rule is 10% of your budget should be cabling. For a Ref 2 that would translate into a $100-$150 cable IMHO.

Placebo effect.....I have 5 figures worth of "high end" cable sitting in a closet.......you cannot tell a difference between any of them and generic X gauge.......
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post #5137 of 6778 Old 05-22-2012, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Placebo effect.....I have 5 figures worth of "high end" cable sitting in a closet.......you cannot tell a difference between any of them and generic X gauge.......

Here here. 14 awg wire is 14 awg wire. Period. I do remember the good ol days of getting into HT in mid late 90's and spending a ridiculous amount of money on MIT cables.

Now, is there a difference in supplied RS style interconnects and some properly constructed stuff from places like Blue Jeans and others....yes. That has to do with wire gauge, connectors, soldering points, and quality of build.

Doubters, do you're own research. Google is your friend. And the 10% on cable thing was generated by the wire companies. Hallmark has us hooked into a lot of BS holidays too.
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post #5138 of 6778 Old 05-22-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Placebo effect.....I have 5 figures worth of "high end" cable sitting in a closet.......you cannot tell a difference between any of them and generic X gauge.......

I've upgraded numerous cables, including analog interlinks, digital cables, etc. The only cable-upgrade that had a clear improvement was the speaker cables. Heck, my wife can't even hear the difference between a Kef Reference 200C and 204/2c center speaker. So if she makes a comment 'wow this sounds better', then call it placebo effect or reality.

I will gladly take the high end cables of your hands for monoprice prices if you like.
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post #5139 of 6778 Old 05-22-2012, 08:04 AM
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two places wire can make an audible difference are speaker cables (shielding, inductance, resistance, and capacitance factored with length and wire gauge) and with things like turntables, when you get into the wire length and material chosen since signal path length alone can make a difference with low voltage MC signal paths and such..

Just for fun, to play the devil's advocate, see the chart at the bottom of the following page for some DIY speaker wire comparisons:

DIY audio projects, DIY speaker wires

I'm an E.E. by trade and education, so while I agree that there are no magical $1200 per foot speaker cables that are amazingly better than a $100 pair of fairly basic cables, there are factors in the cable construction that can make a difference. For what it's worth, I just make my own speaker cables. I make them look pretty, but really they are just large gauge OFC cable, with the appropriate connectors at each end, shielded and dressed up with cable pants, some heat shrink, and techflex so when people look at them they say, "Ooooh wow, those look expensive!" haha

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post #5140 of 6778 Old 05-23-2012, 07:13 AM
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So I have to mail my onkyo receiver to onkyo for repair.. while it's gone.. I have no way of using my kef q900 speakers..
I was thinking of ordering this Dayton dta100a amplifier to use temporarily.. the only thing I use plugged into my receiver was my mac mini.. so I figured I could just plug the stereo 3.5mm out of the mac mini into the dayton dta100a amplifier.. the amplifier is supposed to do 30watts per channel with low distortion from what I've read.. is this doable?
option 2 would be to use the dayton amplifier with my onkyo htib fronts that I have in my closet.. if the dayton would damage the q900s

here's the specs of the q900 Impedance: 8 ohms. Sensitivity: 91dB/2.83V/m. Maximum output: 114dB. Amplification: 15–200W.

this is the amplifier I was going to use with my mac mini to power the kef q900s while my receiver is gone
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-383

I realized I never posted pics and video of my kef speakers.. here's my setup


http://www.flickr.com/photos/theuncola/7175580796/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/theuncola/7175615046/

Gear list: Main setup - Kef Q900, Svs sb12-nsd subwoofer, onkyo 609 receiver, epson 8350 projector, elitescreens sable 92" screen, mac mini htpc
bedroom setup: PSB Image B5, maverick tubemagic a1 amplifier, hifimediy sabre9023 dac, ZMF Fostex T50RP modded headphones
preordered gear: Light Harmonic Geek Pulse X dac and headphone amp
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post #5141 of 6778 Old 05-23-2012, 09:23 AM
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GlassWolf, nice cables
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post #5142 of 6778 Old 05-23-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

I've upgraded numerous cables, including analog interlinks, digital cables, etc. The only cable-upgrade that had a clear improvement was the speaker cables. Heck, my wife can't even hear the difference between a Kef Reference 200C and 204/2c center speaker. So if she makes a comment 'wow this sounds better', then call it placebo effect or reality.

I will gladly take the high end cables of your hands for monoprice prices if you like.

Most likely if you think your SO heard a difference was either a faulty(read CORRODED termination/connection)cable or a volume difference......again placebo effect. Ive got wiring from MIT,Transparent, Cardas, copper, silver, hybrid combo stranding........."network boxed" cables etc etc.......no differences whatsoever.
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post #5143 of 6778 Old 05-23-2012, 01:38 PM
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NTRAIN96 - I think I read your post somewhere here about modding iQ30.
Are you the right person to speak with?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post22056588
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post #5144 of 6778 Old 05-23-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncola View Post

So I have to mail my onkyo receiver to onkyo for repair.. while it's gone.. I have no way of using my kef q900 speakers..

thought about just grabbing a cheap integrated amp or AVR from CL or eBay? Just a thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mav52 View Post

GlassWolf, nice cables

thanks

I have another shot of the two-conductor 8 AWG cables I made, too.. just for fun. They're on my 104/2s while I'm getting ready to tear up one wall of the room to drywall in an AV rack, and put speaker binding post plates in the walls for all of the speakers. For the moment I'm just running with the bi-amp bridges in place.



the awful blue looming is to protect my temporary run of cables from the TV to the AVR. I don't trust my cats not to either pee, or chew on the wiring otherwise.

-GlassWolf
My Home Cinema

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post #5145 of 6778 Old 05-24-2012, 02:31 AM
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Just though I'd mention I got the dayton dta100a and it's totally working with the kef q900s. I'm amazed something this small can do it. Of course, there's a noticeable decrease in audio quality, but I doubt a non audiophile would notice.

Gear list: Main setup - Kef Q900, Svs sb12-nsd subwoofer, onkyo 609 receiver, epson 8350 projector, elitescreens sable 92" screen, mac mini htpc
bedroom setup: PSB Image B5, maverick tubemagic a1 amplifier, hifimediy sabre9023 dac, ZMF Fostex T50RP modded headphones
preordered gear: Light Harmonic Geek Pulse X dac and headphone amp
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post #5146 of 6778 Old 05-24-2012, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAART View Post

NTRAIN96 - I think I read your post somewhere here about modding iQ30.
Are you the right person to speak with?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post22056588

Yep.......just a heads up though........you do know that Kef will send you a new Xover board if you call up and ask.......Just ask for Corey at Kef USA.......I assume those iQ30's are less than 5 years old.......so they will be under warranty.

Regardless if you want to do some cab mods and upgrade the xover, would you prefer I give you the values to the XQ20 instead? Steep 24db slope xover on the mid/tweeter vs. the 12db slopes on your iQ30, both which use the same driver in case you didn't know.
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post #5147 of 6778 Old 05-24-2012, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Yep.......just a heads up though........you do know that Kef will send you a new Xover board if you call up and ask.......Just ask for Corey at Kef USA.......I assume those iQ30's are less than 5 years old.......so they will be under warranty.

Regardless if you want to do some cab mods and upgrade the xover, would you prefer I give you the values to the XQ20 instead? Steep 24db slope xover on the mid/tweeter vs. the 12db slopes on your iQ30, both which use the same driver in case you didn't know.

I got these iQ30 used last year and I do not know if they are still under warranty, therefore it is only one way to do it.

iQ30 and XQ20 have the same drivers! Nice... Then I just need the values for those x-overs and then to find the parts or to pay someone to replace those, like ninja... I send him already email in this matter.

Anyway, while I do have set of other speakers (PSB GB1) and they have amazing black piano finish I probably will do the Kef's as well black or red piano finish.

Can you tel me more about reinforcing the cabinets and what else I should do to get the best of those speakers?
LL
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post #5148 of 6778 Old 05-24-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Placebo effect.....I have 5 figures worth of "high end" cable sitting in a closet.......you cannot tell a difference between any of them and generic X gauge.......

I've heard a difference between speaker cables. I switched from a 18 gauge wire to a 10 gauge on a 15' or so run and it sounded different. May have only sounded louder, but definately different.

I think as long as you don't have extremely bad wire like telephone wire, the differences will be very minor if at all.
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post #5149 of 6778 Old 05-24-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAART View Post

I got these iQ30 used last year and I do not know if they are still under warranty, therefore it is only one way to do it.

iQ30 and XQ20 have the same drivers! Nice... Then I just need the values for those x-overs and then to find the parts or to pay someone to replace those, like ninja... I send him already email in this matter.

Anyway, while I do have set of other speakers (PSB GB1) and they have amazing black piano finish I probably will do the Kef's as well black or red piano finish.

Can you tel me more about reinforcing the cabinets and what else I should do to get the best of those speakers?

Hi,
iQ drivers and XQ drivers are two different types of drivers, with different crossovers and configurations. For any assistance with your iQ30s please contact us at 732-683-2356 and we will be able to repair the speaker for you.

Sincerely,

KEF America
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post #5150 of 6778 Old 05-24-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEFAmerica View Post

Hi,
iQ drivers and XQ drivers are two different types of drivers, with different crossovers and configurations. For any assistance with your iQ30s please contact us at 732-683-2356 and we will be able to repair the speaker for you.

Sincerely,

KEF America

Hello KEF America,

I did send an email to KEF America but still no response yet, however probably you can clarify something here. Is the KEF warranty transferable to the new owner too, like in my case who purchase them used. I checked the warranty card and there stays that speaker electronics have only 1 year warranty. The speaker wasn't abused at all, it just stopped to work at very low level volume. If they stop like this now then KEF should be thinking twice about quality of used components. I did enjoy my old Kef speakers for long time after giving them to a friend and they work like day one... That's the quality I expect from KEF. While they got broken I purchased this winter PSB GB1 and decision to get those was while they are Canadian, have an amazing black piano finish (hand rubbed) and easy to get support and almost I pulled the trigger on Kef Q300 but while I had the bad experience with iQ30, I just got PSB's.

While I owned KEF Reference 103, then 104/2 and Coda 7, and not to forget at last Concerto One... After that I got used iQ30... and there story ends with KEF.

I wish I imported from Europe my old T+A TB140 (got them in the late 90's) speakers as well as Canton GLE70 which are working since 80's without any problem...

Here is serial number (QIQ3019477B39N8J and QIQ3019478B39N8J) and then you can check and be so kind and let me know.

While some people are very confident that iQ30 driver can achieve excellent results with some modifications on the x-over, can you clarify if this is possible.

Best, RL
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post #5151 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

Not true. Speaker cables might be similar for digital cable, but for analog cabling there clearly is a difference. When I upgraded my cables from stock 'RS' to Wirewold biwire even my wife (!!!) could hear the difference.

Here's a good explanation of why you think that's the case:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NwAvGuy View Post

BUT IT SOUNDED BETTER EVEN IN THE NEXT ROOM! Anyone who’s read many of the blind vs sighted debates has probably come across someone claiming their wife even commented how it sounded better and she was three rooms away in the kitchen. That phenomena was explained by Stuart Yaniger in his recent article Testing One Two Three. It turns out many audiophiles have a few favorite test tracks they cue up after making changes to their system. The test tracks are an obvious clue to their spouse they probably changed something in their system. And, spouses being spouses, sometimes respond with the audio equivalent of “that’s nice dear”. Sit down and do a blind comparison if you really want to know the truth—preferably in the same room as the speakers.

Source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

Question: have ever tried yourself a good pair of speaker cables?

I use objectively superior wire compared to what wireworld used in your baubles - mil-spec MIL-W-22759/11 (silver-plated copper stranded with PTFE insulation) in twisted pairs. This stuff is typically used in missiles and fighter jets. I bought my rolls from an aviation surplus place.

Depending on the length of the run, I will use 16AWG, 14AWG, or two pairs of 16AWG for a net 13AWG wire. (I suppose if I needed a really long run, I'd double up the 14AWG. That's not happened.) What I use technically is superior to most wire in two respects: the PTFE ("teflon") insulation allows for a thinner outer diameter relative to the copper thickness (so the wires aren't so conspicuous), and the ends don't get ugly-looking when exposed to air because of the silver plate.

Now, is this stuff audibly superior to standard copper wire of the same gauge from the hardware store, a cut-up extension cord from a Wal-Mart, etc? Absolutely not!

I've "heard" expensive wires once. (By "heard" I mean they did something to color the sound.) They were a pair of MIT wires with their little resistor potted in an impressive-looking housing, on a pair of Martln Logan Quest-Z's. The difference? The little network on the MITrash wires audibly and measurably (!) dulled the highs. Now, I would not expect the same to happen on KEFs; electrostats are comparatively crazy loads in the treble. On those same speakers, massively overpriced square-section Tara Labs stuff sounded no different from Home Depot-sourced 12AWG zip cords.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

To OP: it depends on your budget,

Why would that possibly be the case? Unless you're talking about aesthetic differences. Some expensive wires have nicer-looking ends, etc. I find most so-called high end wires insufferably gaudy. I don't want to have garden hoses strewn about my living room!

Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

The golden rule is 10% of your budget should be cabling.

"Golden" only in that it lets scammers and con men skim off some of your gold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I've heard a difference between speaker cables. I switched from a 18 gauge wire to a 10 gauge on a 15' or so run and it sounded different. May have only sounded louder, but definately different.

That's possible, if the speakers dropped to 2Ω or so. There will be more voltage drop from a too-small wire.

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post #5152 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAART View Post

Hello KEF America,

I did send an email to KEF America but still no response yet, however probably you can clarify something here. Is the KEF warranty transferable to the new owner too, like in my case who purchase them used. I checked the warranty card and there stays that speaker electronics have only 1 year warranty. The speaker wasn't abused at all, it just stopped to work at very low level volume. If they stop like this now then KEF should be thinking twice about quality of used components. I did enjoy my old Kef speakers for long time after giving them to a friend and they work like day one... That's the quality I expect from KEF. While they got broken I purchased this winter PSB GB1 and decision to get those was while they are Canadian, have an amazing black piano finish (hand rubbed) and easy to get support and almost I pulled the trigger on Kef Q300 but while I had the bad experience with iQ30, I just got PSB's.

While I owned KEF Reference 103, then 104/2 and Coda 7, and not to forget at last Concerto One... After that I got used iQ30... and there story ends with KEF.

I wish I imported from Europe my old T+A TB140 (got them in the late 90's) speakers as well as Canton GLE70 which are working since 80's without any problem...

Here is serial number (QIQ3019477B39N8J and QIQ3019478B39N8J) and then you can check and be so kind and let me know.

While some people are very confident that iQ30 driver can achieve excellent results with some modifications on the x-over, can you clarify if this is possible.

Best, RL

Hi RL,
I am sorry to hear that. Best is call Corey directly and he will be able to look up the speakers and let you know the warranty on them. His number is 732-683-2356 x. 109.

Sincerely,

KEF America
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post #5153 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 07:21 AM
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DS-21... I will not participate any longer in 'hijacking' this thread into a 'cable difference' thread. There's a couple out there. The OP asked which cable people recommends, and some of us have the opinion that cables don't matter, while others do. No one tells him to go out and buy $50/ft cables. My recommendation was to stick with the 10% rule, and see what fits his budget. It's his call if he wants to go out and buy a pair of monoprice cables for his Kef speakers.
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post #5154 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

My recommendation was to stick with the 10% rule,

The "10% rule" for wire budget is for scammers like audio parts dealers who push wires (because they get a higher margin on them than on value-added products like KEF speakers), and nothing else. The cost of the wires for a very inexpensive home theater may in fact be quite a high percentage. (One often underestimates the sheer length of wire required for a 5.1-channel system.) The percentage cost of wires for something like a 2-channel system using KEF Blades should be de minimis.

Your repeated invocation of this so-called "10% rule" reminds me of nothing so much as that slimy corrupt scumbag Asif Ali Zardari, aka Mister Ten Percent.

There is, however, one real rule when it comes to speaker wires: the "wire thickness rule," which tells one the minimum gauge wire they should use to avoid signal losses, based on the length of the run and the minimum impedance of the loudspeakers. Here is an easy-to-use calculator. (Though I'd say for home use half a dB is a better threshold than the 1dB they cite.)

And there are also sometimes differences in assembly quality (some cheap pre-terminated ones might have poor solder joints, as for that matter will quite commonly overpriced boutique ones), and subjective aesthetic preferences.

But that's it. Anyone who says anything else is just a cheap con man.

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post #5155 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEFAmerica View Post

Hi RL,
I am sorry to hear that. Best is call Corey directly and he will be able to look up the speakers and let you know the warranty on them. His number is 732-683-2356 x. 109.

Sincerely,

KEF America

While I am away this weekend (luckily have another comp here) will give him a call probably on Tuesday when I am back home... See what he has to say, but until then I still want to find more info on x-over upgrade and all possible improvements what can be done with this speaker.
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post #5156 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Regardless if you want to do some cab mods and upgrade the xover, would you prefer I give you the values to the XQ20 instead? Steep 24db slope xover on the mid/tweeter vs. the 12db slopes on your iQ30, both which use the same driver in case you didn't know.

I like to have those values, please...
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post #5157 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 11:33 AM
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KEF owners,
any one own this KEF T305

care to share their experience.

I am in the market and it made into my list, my thread here, it will be helpful if you can participate there. TIA.
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post #5158 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

The "10% rule" for wire budget is for scammers like audio parts dealers who push wires (because they get a higher margin on them than on value-added products like KEF speakers), and nothing else. The cost of the wires for a very inexpensive home theater may in fact be quite a high percentage. (One often underestimates the sheer length of wire required for a 5.1-channel system.) The percentage cost of wires for something like a 2-channel system using KEF Blades should be de minimis.

Your repeated invocation of this so-called "10% rule" reminds me of nothing so much as that slimy corrupt scumbag Asif Ali Zardari, aka Mister Ten Percent.

There is, however, one real rule when it comes to speaker wires: the "wire thickness rule," which tells one the minimum gauge wire they should use to avoid signal losses, based on the length of the run and the minimum impedance of the loudspeakers. Here is an easy-to-use calculator. (Though I'd say for home use half a dB is a better threshold than the 1dB they cite.)

And there are also sometimes differences in assembly quality (some cheap pre-terminated ones might have poor solder joints, as for that matter will quite commonly overpriced boutique ones), and subjective aesthetic preferences.

But that's it. Anyone who says anything else is just a cheap con man.

Take it down a notch
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post #5159 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by exm View Post

Not true. Speaker cables might be similar for digital cable, but for analog cabling there clearly is a difference. When I upgraded my cables from stock 'RS' to Wirewold biwire even my wife (!!!) could hear the difference.

Question: have ever tried yourself a good pair of speaker cables?

Anyway, we shouldn't make this a 'cables' thread. To OP: it depends on your budget, if you watch movies or play music (and what kind of music?). I would search for some speaker cable reviews (plenty online) and get a cable that fits your budges. The golden rule is 10% of your budget should be cabling. For a Ref 2 that would translate into a $100-$150 cable IMHO.

I have some Kimber Kable speaker wires. They sound like Wal-Mart speaker wire.
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post #5160 of 6778 Old 05-25-2012, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by exm View Post

My recommendation was to stick with the 10% rule, and see what fits his budget.

Damn, so my Salon2 should get $2200 speaker cables?

My Orion should have $1500 cables?

And my 6 KEF 201/2 should have $1800 of cables?
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