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post #7321 of 7339 Unread 05-02-2015, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Use the following web app to determine the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) that can be achieved in your room with the Q900: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html the goal is to reach 105dB peak at the Main Listening Position (MLP) - i.e. where you sit. Are you able to achieve this just in stereo mode?
That calculator is worthless, unless one is talking about listening outdoors or in an anechoic chamber. For more, better to point you here than to repeat myself.

Bottom line is really that Q900's demand very little from an amp, and chances are excellent that one's subwoofers are the limiting factor when using main speakers of that size and efficiency.

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post #7322 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
That calculator is worthless....
Do you have a better method / calculation to determine the relationship amp power, number of speakers, seating distance to MLP and speaker placement?

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post #7323 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Do you have a better method / calculation to determine the relationship amp power, number of speakers, seating distance to MLP and speaker placement?
My method is simply not to obsess about things that are generally non-issues in real life with modern equipment and bass management.

But on Q900s, a friend of mine owns a pair. He, as many people affected by nonsense audiophool marketing claptrap, heard them on his AVR and insisted he needed a separate amp to get the best out of them. So he bought a Parasound amp that cost I think more than the speakers did. Objectively an excellent amplifier: high power, low noise, attractive faceplate. I offered to help him dial in the system after with the new amp. In the process, I snuck one of these cheap, old zone amps behind the thing and connected the Q900s to it. (I bought that amp for nearly nothing, and use it as a test amp for measurements, etc.) Needless to say, he enthused the amazing improvement offered by the amp - in everything from output to treble air to image centering! - over the AVR and wanted me to eat crow. I said I heard something that sounded like a bad connection, and asked him to check the connections. Red faces and valuable, four-figure-USD-saving lessons ensued.
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post #7324 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 10:46 AM
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Boy that's quite the story, it's almost believable. You had me up until "I snuck in a zone amp". Hahahaha

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Hear me now, Listen to me later....
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post #7325 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
My method is simply not to obsess about things that are generally non-issues in real life with modern equipment and bass management.

But on Q900s, a friend of mine owns a pair. He, as many people affected by nonsense audiophool marketing claptrap, heard them on his AVR and insisted he needed a separate amp to get the best out of them. So he bought a Parasound amp that cost I think more than the speakers did. Objectively an excellent amplifier: high power, low noise, attractive faceplate. I offered to help him dial in the system after with the new amp. In the process, I snuck one of these cheap, old zone amps behind the thing and connected the Q900s to it. (I bought that amp for nearly nothing, and use it as a test amp for measurements, etc.) Needless to say, he enthused the amazing improvement offered by the amp - in everything from output to treble air to image centering! - over the AVR and wanted me to eat crow. I said I heard something that sounded like a bad connection, and asked him to check the connections. Red faces and valuable, four-figure-USD-saving lessons ensued.
All that does...is prove; even a lowly, stand-alone separate amp...sounds better than an AVR. Just imagine, how much better his more-expensive Parasound unit would have sounded.

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post #7326 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 11:02 AM
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Boy that's quite the story, it's almost believable. You had me up until "I snuck in a zone amp". Hahahaha
Of course a salesman would interject something like that.

(The salesman who processed the return on the Parasound amp was not happy, either. )

A thinking person who understands what a 90+ dB/W/m speaker in a fairly standard size living room with bass management employed actually requires would understand why I did what I did, and that the result was inevitable. (The one question a thoughtful person might have is how I made the switch quickly and inconspicuously, considering that little amp has Phoenix terminals that require a screwdriver to terminate the speaker leads and not banana jacks or binding posts. The answer is a pigtail lead connected to one of these. I use this amp as a test amp when I'm measuring a loudspeaker outdoors, because I have no concerns about throwing it around. And the binding posts mean I don't have to use a screwdriver if I need longer speaker wire.)

The bottom line is that any marginal AB amp will be able to drive Q900's in a bass managed system to deafening levels just fine. They're efficient and a somewhat tough load. And a competent (load invariant, e.g. Hypex, Icepower, Anaview) Class D amp can too. Even one based on the little Icepower 50ASX2 (~25W/ch) in stereo mode.

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post #7327 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 04:25 PM
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My method is simply not to obsess about things that are generally non-issues in real life with modern equipment and bass management..
Think I've highlighted the key words in DS-21 point of using 25W per channel amps for his speakers.

Most modern receivers do have well implemented bass management system, the question then becomes what % of the power requirement is re-directed to the bass and is this dependent on the crossover freqeuncy.

There are readily available functions and a feature that would put the 25W per channel amp into risk of clipping and possibly damaging the speakers with high distortion.

(1) Room Equalization (REQ) that can reduce the gain stage by up to 9dB - if usiing a modern room correction algorithm such as Audyssey.
(2) PURE DIRECT mode. This is where the receiver disables bass management and sends the full range signals to the front left and front right amps.
(3) Party mode and/or all channel stereo mode. This where the 2.0 signal is sent to the surrounds and downmixed to the center channel.

I did an experiment with (1) + (3) and set the volume limit to 0dB (reference level) with the Marantz NR-1504 receiver. The setting on the receiver was bass management enabled, all channel stereo. Had the sub crossover frequency on the high side - 100Hz. Maximum distance to MLP was just over 10'. The NR-1504 is rated at 50W per channel in stereo mode with very low distortion and was placed in an open area with sufficient space around it for cooling. Was playing around with a few tunes during the evening and noticed the compression in the KEF E301, but it was late and had to work the next day.

Got a complaint from the wife the next day saying the receiver keep shutting down (due to thermal protection) while she was streaming tunes using Spotify and had the volume turned up. I repeated her experiment and shure enough she was right. Had to place a lower limiter on the receiver to -10dB so that the unit would not go into thermal protection. The wife is now happy since she can now stream her tunes.

When using the web app, found out that 50W per channel was NOT sufficient.

So my experience is very different from yours.

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post #7328 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Think I've highlighted the key words in DS-21 point of using 25W per channel amps for his speakers.
For the record, they're not my speakers. (I do use the 8" Uni-Q from the Q900 in my desktop speakers.) The only KEF speakers currently in my main system are R800ds surroundThe Q900's have really great bones, but the cabinet quality is not sufficient for my living room, and the crossover needs to be reworked to let that amazing 8" Uni-Q shine. (Could probably get 90% of the way there with a notch filter to tame the midwoofers' breakup. One of those things I've planned to get around to doing at some point. Hard to take measurements of large speakers in someone else's living room when they have a toddler, though...)

In fact, on my speakers I actually use a fairly expensive separate amp capable of greater than 200W into 8Ω with all channels driven. Why? Because I want to. I make no claims of sonic superiority for it, except that its noise floor is so low it had no trouble powering 96dB/W/m speakers at a short listening distance. I just wanted it.

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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
I did an experiment with [an obsolete variant of Audyssey known for doing even more nasty things to the treble than their current XT32 version] + [all channel "stereo"] and set the volume limit to 0dB (reference level) with the Marantz NR-1504 receiver. The setting on the receiver was bass management enabled, all channel stereo.
First, I assumed a standard mode (stereo, surround sound expansion by something like DPL2, discrete multichannel) not a no-fi sound spraying setup.

OK...now please explain to everyone how willfully
-using a tiny (and thus lower thermal capacity, given its Class AB amps) AVR
-in a no-fidelity mode
-to drive tiny low efficiency speakers with tiny cones backed up by basically no cabinet volume below their capabilities

has to do with

-using a standard AVR or AVR-grade AB amp (the Sherbourne I used in this particular case was below AVR grade, admittedly)
-in a mode worth of good audio gear
-to drive fairly large and high efficiency speakers with fairly large cone area operating in a fairly large cabinet volume?

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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Had the sub crossover frequency on the high side - 100Hz. Maximum distance to MLP was just over 10'. The NR-1504 is rated at 50W per channel in stereo mode with very low distortion and was placed in an open area with sufficient space around it for cooling. Was playing around with a few tunes during the evening and noticed the compression in the KEF E301, but it was late and had to work the next day.
I can see how that must've sounded awful. The E301 eggs (I recently picked up a pair, FWIW, for potential immersive heights; I have a bunch of the predecessor HTS3005SE, but they're all black so they would not look good mounted as heights in my living room. The E301's are white.) cannot play that low without serious dynamic compression regardless of power in a space bigger than a BMW X5. It doesn't matter if there's a chipamp or an ATI AT6000 driving them. It's a matter of tiny tiny cone, and motor that gets very hot because the egg has basically no airspace in it. The older HTS3001SE was a little better in that regard, even though I believe the midrange's voicecoil was considerably smaller-diameter. There was just more room in there because the driver motor was much smaller. Neo slug rather than giant ceramic disk. But I still highpassed 'em at 120Hz. See "modest multisubs" thread.)


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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
So my experience is very different from yours.
I agree, but that's because your starting conditions are not ones I would consider reasonable use of good audio gear. Use your system like someone who cares about how music sounds (no all channel "stereo" silliness, a highpass appropriate to the mains speakers) and/or pick an AVR that's not inherently a marginal performer because of the design choices made (lotsa heat-producing stuff - HDMI boards, AB amps - in a very compact case) and you might come around to my view.

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post #7329 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 06:33 PM
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I tired the 25W Nad 7050 D with a pair of Kef LS50s. It was a bad combo. The LS50s aren't 90db efficient though. I had to turn the volume all the way into the +side for any decent, not even loud, volume. A 70W Marantz integrated worked wonderfully though. I could A|B them with my Paradigm S2. The difference in efficiency between the two speakers was striking.
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post #7330 of 7339 Unread 05-03-2015, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
...

First, I assumed a standard mode (stereo, surround sound expansion by something like DPL2, discrete multichannel) not a no-fi sound spraying setup.

OK...now please explain to everyone how willfully
-using a tiny (and thus lower thermal capacity, given its Class AB amps) AVR
-in a no-fidelity mode
-to drive tiny low efficiency speakers with tiny cones backed up by basically no cabinet volume below their capabilities

has to do with

-using a standard AVR or AVR-grade AB amp (the Sherbourne I used in this particular case was below AVR grade, admittedly)
-in a mode worth of good audio gear
-to drive fairly large and high efficiency speakers with fairly large cone area operating in a fairly large cabinet volume?
Thought the we were discussing amp power requirements for KEF speakers in room - or is it going off tangent now? Your previous post says that the web app for determining power requirements based on a number factors is "worthless", I disagree as there is no real good alternative tool. I note that KEF doesn't give both the anechoic speaker sensitivity as well as in-room sensitivity numbers. Speaker manufacturers that do give both anechoic and in-room speaker sensitivity numbers, the in-room numbers are always higher. I ASSumed KEF's numbers are in-room. Maybe this is a bad thing to ASSume since I don't know how KEF tested their speakers?

So I ask again, how would one determine amp power requirements based on in room speaker sensitivity, the number of speakers, seating distance to MLP and speaker placement in the room? Avoiding the question doesn't provide a satisfactory answer. I'm on the lookout for a better tool to use - if there is one.

The fundamental question is that of risk. Having sufficient power or over driving the amp into clipping and leading to potential damage of the speakers? Most consumers would not know how to gain match components within the audio chain. The ordinary Joe would not know the passive speaker crossover design and power split between woofer to mid-range + tweeter. Do you? If so, what is the engineering basis with bass management electronic crossover implemented in the pre/pro/receiver? Would like to know the power split based on the electronic crossover selected on the pre/pro/receiver.

The basis of your claim on the "worthless" web app is that it over estimates the power requirement for the amp. For pure 2-channel stereo mode, i.e. without bass management, this is good enough to get an approximate power figure. A check against the amp/receiver's capabilities for clean maximum power is a sensible thing to do. So I disagree with you on this point that the web app is "worthless".

What you're implying is that less than 50W per channel is all that's needed to get to reference levels provided one ALWAYS enables bass management and not use any of the available functions because you consider them to be "...no-fi sound spraying setup" How did you determine that PURE DIRECT/DIRECT mode to be "no-fi sound spraying setup"? There are people who do enjoy playing tunes in pure stereo mode using just their front left and front right speakers as the noise makers. That's been the case since stereo was developed from mono.

An actual test case was used to show that less than 50W per channel system failed with bass management and unable to maintain reference level. It is a repeatable test. The all stereo / party mode feature is available on every modern receiver so that anyone can do this test. Results may and will differ for each room/setup. You may not want to use this feature for what ever reason, but if one was having a house party - this feature would be useful. Image the look on everyone's face when the receiver goes into thermal protection mode and the music stops. A non-functioning setup is the same thing no setup. Who is/are having the red face(s) then? It may not be you, but others might want to consider this risk.

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This link doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
..I agree, but that's because your starting conditions are not ones I would consider reasonable use of good audio gear. Use your system like someone who cares about how music sounds (no all channel "stereo" silliness, a highpass appropriate to the mains speakers) and/or pick an AVR that's not inherently a marginal performer because of the design choices made (lotsa heat-producing stuff - HDMI boards, AB amps - in a very compact case) and you might come around to my view.
The starting conditions have changed. Going to get some mid-bass modules from Rythmik to complement the E301 with Dirac Live REQ + Atmos setup. Have purchased additional speakers + external amps. See my signature below.

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post #7331 of 7339 Unread Yesterday, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Thought the we were discussing amp power requirements for KEF speakers in room - or is it going off tangent now?
The question was as follows: "Hello, I just bought a pair of KEF Q900's a *** does anyone have any suggestions for a separate multi-ch amp, how to connect it and potential benefits over what I'm using?"

So no, not power requirements for KEF speakers generally. Power requirements for Q900s specifically. Power requirements for a brand of speakers generally is not something I would comment on, because it's a stupid question to ask.

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Your previous post says that the web app for determining power requirements based on a number factors is "worthless", I disagree as there is no real good alternative tool.
That's not a reasonable point of disagreement. Here's basically the exchange:
Me: There's no spaceship that can get a man to Mars, so you shouldn't use a current model spaceship to try to go to Mars.
You: I disagree as there is no real good alternative ship. So we should use this one that we know is not going to get us anywhere close anyway.

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I note that KEF doesn't give both the anechoic speaker sensitivity as well as in-room sensitivity numbers.
That's because those aren't two real things. There is sensitivity, which is conventionally defined as output either on pink noise or over a defined bandwidth at 2.83V, measured at 1m. Besides that, anything else is a pointless BS spec made up by marketers for the technically illiterate.

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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
So I ask again, how would one determine amp power requirements based on in room speaker sensitivity, the number of speakers, seating distance to MLP and speaker placement in the room?
One who knew what s/he was talking about would not attempt to do that, because the variables make no sense.

"In room speaker sensitivity" is not a real thing except in the eyes of technically illiterate marketers.

Number of speakers is irrelevant.

The effect of speakers and seating distance on SPL falloff depends on the room.

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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Avoiding the question doesn't provide a satisfactory answer. I'm on the lookout for a better tool to use - if there is one.
I'm not avoiding the question, I'm answering it directly: there is no such tool, because it's not a reasonable thing to expect an online calculator to provide.

Also, obsessing about amplifier power is stupid. Smart people don't do it. One will know if s/he has too little power easily, by listening. Clipping is audible, though less experienced people may confound speaker output or linearity problems with amp power problems.

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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
The fundamental question is that of risk.
No, the fundamental question is one of obsessing about something that's generally a non issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
The basis of your claim on the "worthless" web app is that it over estimates the power requirement for the amp.
No, the basis of my claim is that it ignores material variables, and the variables it uses are only useful outdoors or in an anechoic chamber.

That it overstates power requirements is factually correct, but completely irrelevant to my claim that it's worthless.

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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
How did you determine that PURE DIRECT/DIRECT mode to be "no-fi sound spraying setup"?
That comment was about all channel "stereo," not playing two channel program material over two channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
An actual test case was used to show that less than 50W per channel system failed with bass management and unable to maintain reference level.
An actual test case really just showed that a tiny tiny speakers can be overdriven when misused, and that a very compact budget AVR model has insufficient heat-sinking for an HDMI board and a multichannel AB amp asked to run full-tilt. Nothing more.

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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
but if one was having a house party - this feature would be useful.
I would never insult my guests, my ears, or my equipment by using an all channel "stereo" mode.

Do you even know what "stereo" means? It has nothing to do with the number of channels. (Stereo was actually a 3-channel format until it was degraded to 2 channel so that stereo recordings could be cut into vinyl records.) "Stereo" means "solid," as in creating a soundstage. IOW, "stereo" is a synonym for "imaging." The very thing that playing the same content at the same level through speakers all around the room completely destroys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
The starting conditions have changed. Going to get some mid-bass modules from Rythmik to complement the E301 with Dirac Live REQ + Atmos setup. Have purchased additional speakers + external amps. See my signature below.
Why not sell those cockamamie servo things and buy competently-designed subwoofers with adequate bandwidth?

As for the broken link, my apologies. Try this: Measurements of a modest multisub setup in a temporary rental apartment

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^DS-21,


Let me put the question to you in a simply way.

Previously you said a 25W/ch stereo amp is sufficient for the KEF Q900. Most people would logically think 25W driving the large KEF Q900 floor standers to be inadequate, but how did you determine this NOT to be so? You must have something in mind, otherwise you wouldn't have specifically stated 25W per channel. If power isn't important as you claimed - why didn't you state 10W or 1W?

What are the limitations/conditions (if any) being placed on your suggested 25W/ch amp to drive the KEF Q900 without distortion or causing it to go into thermal protection? There must be a gotcha somewhere. Edit: since you brought up vinyl, the "solid" (i.e. stereo) analogue output via the pre-amp is the feed into the 25W amp. Is 25W sufficient get to reference level with the KEF Q900?

Using the spaceship analogy to mars doesn't help anyone and isn't appreciated.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
...
Why not sell those cockamamie servo things and buy competently-designed subwoofers with adequate bandwidth?
Think you should direct this question to servo sub designer/owner over at the Rythmik thread. Brian and other owners maybe be able to correct your obvious bias (or perhaps mis-understanding?), based on your statement that servo subs are "cockamamie" and NOT "competently designed subwoofers with adequate bandwidth?".

Edit: I note from your link that you've got a pair of KEF HTB2 subs and the XLS12 sub. How did you consider the HTB2 not to be "cockamamie" and "competently designed subwoofers with adequate bandwidth?". Is it because the HTB2 has a 10" driver? Perhaps the 30Hz to 250Hz working range to match with your KHT3005SE set? Why do you think the Rthmik F12G servo sub that has a larger 12"driver and 14Hz to 200Hz (using the LFE input) would not work? Or the F8 sub that has dual 8" drivers with and 18Hz to 250Hz working range would is not doable?

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Looking at two channel only, how would a LS50 with sub, compare to the R500s? Price will be similar, but I am more concern about sonics. Do they share the same mids and highs? Will be using a NAD D7050.
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Repost from $20,000 Forum: Blade 2 Demo!! (Long)

Hi;
News about this speaker should be seen on the KEF thread! I'll let the post speak for itself.

Hi:
I have been listening to a number of speakers to serve as a 2 channel core in an HT system. I am pleased to report that around NYC, some brick and mortar dealers are surviving. I don't know how else I would be able to hear so many speakers. All the dealers/showrooms I visited have environments that make statements appropriate to their owner's personalities. What they have in common is that they remain flexible and change their business models to meet customer needs. Some of these stores have been around 4 decades and longer! I feel for those who live in more rural areas without the population to support a B&M shop.
Some of the speakers I've heard include the Dynaudio C2, Revel Ultra Salon II, Rockport Atria, Magico S3, Kaiser Chiara, Raidho C3.1, B&W 802D and KEF Blade 2. Quite a price spread and very different sounding speakers. They were all "good" speakers but some produced sound that was after a different buyer than myself. The Kaiser speakers were my favorites but the model I wanted is priced at $60,000 for the pair so they were out of contention.
It is really tough to compare speakers without having them all in your room where the other factors that affect the sound of the speakers can be controlled. I guess that's a basic problem with this entire process; the sound can be influenced by so many factors from electric power to amps to sources to room acoustics. However, I believe I can get a sense of a speaker if I am aware of the entire audio source chain.
As the search has progressed, I have come to feel blending a pair of JL212 subs flawlessly with any random speaker is too difficult. Even crossing at 40Hz the character of my current speakers, Aerial 9's, changes too much. The result is I am beginning to lean towards a more full range speaker that will not require a sub most of the time.
I am down to 2 speakers now; the Magico S3 or the KEF Blade 2! The Magico has a wonderful mid range and highs that reveal so much yet never get harsh. The lower end was also so well defined and clean, just not so deep. Magicos have a reputation for clinical and revealing sound and I believe their Q series leans this direction. The S series is a bit warmer and more "musical", as they say. The S5 may provide the lower end I am after at a price starting at $32,000. Maybe a lightly used Magico S5 is an option. At any rate, I loved the sound of the Magicos. Their drivers are very high tech and all made in-house. The most amazing mid range demo was on vinyl from 1963: Dean Martin singing! 'Swinging with Dean".
Then I heard the KEF Blade 2's. According to the dealer that many of us on AVS know, Craig of Theatermax, now associated with a great guy named George, he has the 1st pair of Blade 2's in the country set up for dealer demo. Craig told me that like Magico, KEF also designs and makes their own drivers in-house. The speakers have a unique appearance and are highly engineered, meaning KEF didn't just throw some off the shelf drivers into an odd shaped cabinet. The way these speakers can crank out soundstage with SPL's yet remain totally vibration free while weighing about 100lbs defies logic. While the speakers were cranking I placed my hands on them and felt nothing. I could carry on a normal conversation standing directly behind the speakers while they were really, really loud, not something I could do at that same moment in front of the speakers. I've never experienced that before. Their point source concept really seems to work!
The Uni-Q driver does an outstanding job. Mids were so clear and clean, never overshadowed by mid-bass. What was on the recordings is what we heard. Mids recorded to make voices broadly float in mid air and embrace you sounded just that way. George had some amazing KEF recommended cuts we played in addition to my music and George's superb selections. On Kind of Blue "So What", the depth of the sound stage was so dramatic you feel a clear sense of 3 dimensions. The highs were generally smooth and clean as well as clear and detailed. When we cranked the speakers way way up I felt some harshness in the high end so I back off the volume a bit. Perhaps this is the character of the speaker or maybe with just 100 hours on them, they aren't fully broken in and will smooth out with more hours.
With 4 small woofer driving the low end I didn't expect too much. I was totally wrong! The low end on this speaker, in a room that was about 14 x 30 or so, was so impressive that a woofer would not be necessary. I played several cuts with different types of bass and the Blade 2's never sounded overloaded like some of the other speakers I heard. They perform way beyond what the specs say! A cut like Pete Blasco's "Deeper was clean and shook the room like a sub would; while the cabinet stayed totally inert! Same towards the end of Bela Fleck's "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo".
At this point I am wondering about the importance of set up with this speaker. We have all read about Blade demos at the big shows that fell flat; nobody was impressed with the speakers. It seem that if the set up is done properly the speakers sound amazing; poor set up yields poor sound. I certainly hope that KEF takes an active role in making sure where ever their speakers are set up at shows that all efforts are made to set them up properly and use appropriate amplification. The demo I heard used Craig's favorite Theta Prometheus mono block amps; very impressive. I would also want to try these speakers with Hegel amps.
I recall reading that some considered the $30,000 Blade to compare to speakers 3x their cost. We all hear these types of statements and say "sure" to ourselves. What I have learned from my speaker search is the pecking order of boutique high-end speakers have an entry level in the $20 - $25,000 level. At this price you get good imaging and sound stage, great mids and highs but limited bass extension. Pay $30 - $40,000 and you get more volume, better impressive imaging, a larger sound stage and another octave of bass. $50 - $60,000 seems to be the price to "get it all", with more of everything, in one speaker!
There in lies the value proposition for the KEF Blade 2. This speaker may not have the ultimate mids and highs of the Magico; I wouldn't know without hearing them in the same system in the same room. If they aren't as good they aren't that far behind. The Blades provide an awesome mid range experience with low end extension and the larger image and soundstage of the higher priced boutique speakers. In KEF I feel I am dealing with a real company investing heavily in audio research. BTW, I feel confident in dealing with Magico too! Perhaps a company the size of KEF is able to produce product on a larger scale at a more cost effective price since they can spread the results of their investment over more speaker lines.
Whatever the reason, KEF has produced a very interesting speaker that would be worth your while to hear, even if you aren't buying now!
I drove 1 hours 40 minutes each way to make this demo. Craig and George couldn't have been more hospitable. They were informative and gracious. No pressure, just pure enjoyment! Thanks, guys, for a great experience!
BP

BP

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Bob, it was our pleasure. If anyone is seriously considering the Blade 2 please let us know. They are nothing short of stunning.
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Onkyo 3009 good enough for KEF Q300 & Q600

Hello everyone. I am plan to upgrade my LCR to KEF Q300 & Q600. I currently own, Onkyo 3009. Is this receiver enough to drive the KEF. What is the advantage and disadvantages. My receiver is 6ohm and KEF spec as 8ohm. If not KEF. What is the other ideal LCR that will match the receiver. My budget is around $1000. Thank you everyone. I appreciate for your time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saxguy View Post
Bob, it was our pleasure. If anyone is seriously considering the Blade 2 please let us know. They are nothing short of stunning.
You're a lucky guy George. I don't often have system envy; but your room is really something.

Getting amps, that I hope are more suited...to logging hours on my Ref 1s. Like you...I'm willing to demo to prospective, interested parties; because I think so highly of KEF.

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#1: Aurender N100 > Auralic Vega > Wyred4Sound STP > Merrill Audio THOR > KEF Reference 1s
#2: C.A.P.S. > NuPrime IDA-16 > Wyred4Sound mAMPS > ScanSonic MB-1s
#3
#4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Think you should direct this question to servo sub designer/owner over at the Rythmik thread.
You mean that flake Brian Ding, who makes claims about interconnects affecting the sound of subwoofers?

This thread is about competent gear. If you wish to read more of my thoughts on Rhythmik and Ding, do an advanced search for posts with my username, using the keywords "cockamamie" and "flake."

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Edit: I note from your link that you've got a pair of KEF HTB2 subs and the XLS12 sub.
First, until/unless you can post measurements of your own room that show equivalent bass frequency response linearity to that budget system set up in a temporary rental apartment, perhaps you should defer to those who have actually walked the walk in addition to talking the talk...

While I have all those subs, they're in my basement. That's two homes ago. The drivers in my 4 current subwoofers are all underhung designs that are generally too expensive for use in commercial subs under $10,000. The big Magicos use the same drivers. Adam Audio has or had a subwoofer or two using the same driver family, at the expected price point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
How did you consider the HTB2 not to be "cockamamie"
Because it doesn't have a cockamamie servo system that fixes a non-problem (second order distortion in the bass is the definition of a non-problem) and imposes a cost on an aspect of performance that's actually important in subwoofers (top end bandwidth).

The old KEF HTB2 is, for what it is, a standout performer. It's probably the ideal "MBM," given that it's small, has plenty of output all the way down to about 40Hz AND as you mention, extremely smooth frequency response in the octave above a typical crossover. In truth, the HTB2's only real disadvantage (not imposed by basic physics) is that the diaphragms of the woofer and PR are naked. So it's easy to ding them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Why do you think the Rthmik F12G servo sub that has a larger 12"driver and 14Hz to 200Hz (using the LFE input) would not work? Or the F8 sub that has dual 8" drivers with and 18Hz to 250Hz working range would is not doable?
Ding's FR claims are not credible. The only third-party measurements of which I'm aware (at data-bass.com) clearly show inferior bandwidth due to his cockamamie servo nonsense. I have personally measured the HTB2, and several magazines have found the same performance I have found.

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