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post #9001 of 10290 Old 09-15-2016, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I use 3 Parasound JC 1 monoblocks for LCR. The JC 1 provides 400 watts@8Ω, 800@4Ω. The preamp for stereo is an analog Parasound JC 2 BP; the processor for multichannel is a Bryston SP3, the front LR of which passed through the JC 2 BP to access the JC 1s.

I think I can hear a C2 or C4 in the LA area, but last time I checked, there were no Blades. I set the center channel to none in the SP3 menu tonight, thus removing the R600C. My wife says intelligibility is better without the R600C. We sit at the apex of an equilateral triangle formed with the 107/2s, and the 107/2s image stereo so well, it's no surprising they do a phantom center well.

db
the Reference 4c is much much better than the R600C.
Yes, you have a great system! You definitely could buy Kef Blade Twos. You'd love them.
Could use them the way you use your 107/2s now if you like! The depth of the sound , openness and detail is much better with the Kef Blade Twos over the 107/2s. Your electronics say to me you should do that upgrade!
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post #9002 of 10290 Old 09-15-2016, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by hatlesschimp View Post
I can hear the same characteristics of the LS50 but a lot more bass from the 3160.
Where did you get the dimensions you used for the enclosures for the 3160? I might want to replace my LS50 surrounds with 3160s for a neater installation.

Ken, we are talking about the new Reference 2C and 4C.

db
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post #9003 of 10290 Old 09-15-2016, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
Where did you get the dimensions you used for the enclosures for the 3160? I might want to replace my LS50 surrounds with 3160s for a neater installation.

Ken, we are talking about the new Reference 2C and 4C.

db
I spoke to the rep they are designed for standard in wall installation between the studs 450mm apart and standard ceiling, so i did the calculations on that volume. But in the specs the details are for open back not mounted in anything. I basically built the box to be an even distance from each side of the baffle so it looked nice and allowed enough space behind the drivers. So its smaller than the cavity space in a wall. But works great!

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post #9004 of 10290 Old 09-15-2016, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hatlesschimp View Post
What should i be doing for the amp that powers the Ci200rr-thx? I was looking at the Rotel rmb 1555 (125wpc @ 8 ohms continuous) or used Rotel rmb 1095 (200wpc @ 8 ohms continuous). My floor speakers / LCR and Surrounds are currently powered by a Rotel rmb 1585 (200wpc @ 8 ohms continuous).
I dont think we have ATI here in Australia. Is that a class D power amp? The Rotel 1585 is A/B.
Look with the choice of amps Id like to keep them near the same style and age and the 1555 is the cheaper little brother of the 1585 i have now.

Cheers lads.
Good rule of thumb................whatever the speakers rms is, then multiply by 1.5 to 2 for amp. The 200rr's are 190 rms, so I'm using slightly more than double. I can guarantee you, these speakers really love the extra watts concerning dynamics. Besides, amps will always cruise along supplying watts...............

200 watts in 4 ohm's on tap is a little on the light side, but will work if you don't push amps...................better to have more watts in amp than not enough..........safer for the speaker, better for the amp.
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post #9005 of 10290 Old 09-16-2016, 01:11 AM
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Good rule of thumb................whatever the speakers rms is, then multiply by 1.5 to 2 for amp. The 200rr's are 190 rms, so I'm using slightly more than double. I can guarantee you, these speakers really love the extra watts concerning dynamics. Besides, amps will always cruise along supplying watts...............

200 watts in 4 ohm's on tap is a little on the light side, but will work if you don't push amps...................better to have more watts in amp than not enough..........safer for the speaker, better for the amp.
What AMP should I be using? Class D then? I'm eyeing up another Rotel thats 5ch x 200wpc etc. So then I will have 10 Channels with 200wpc. We just dont have access to every Power Amp like america. Also the height / Atmos isnt going to get too much of a load compared to the LCR. Maybe down the track I can go a couple Monos or a Bigger Stereo for the Front Left and Right and maybe centre?

Also dont class A/B go the other way with the power where they can put out more. I see the specs around the place say 325wpc in 4ohms for the Rotel rmb 1585.
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post #9006 of 10290 Old 09-16-2016, 01:19 AM
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Power Amplifier with a staggering 5 x 200watts per channel - RMB1585. This multi channel beast is designed to deliver stacks of headroom and power to you home theatre receiver of Processor. Rotel engineering excellence! The rated output is 5 x 200 watts into 8 ohms or 5 x 360 watts into 4 ohms.
http://www.quantumhifi.com.au/pages/rotel

Ok im sold I'm buy another Rmb 1585 or a used old model - Rmb 1095.
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post #9007 of 10290 Old 09-16-2016, 05:27 AM
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If you can find a used older model and save some money, do it. Those are very reliable units and rarely abused.

Your project has me intrigued. I wish I could afford to come experience it when finished!

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post #9008 of 10290 Old 09-16-2016, 09:30 AM
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Kef Reference 203/1 query

Recently downgraded (sic) from my Kef104/2 to Reference 203/1 and center ref 200c to matching 202c. So getting used to the more upfront sound.
Question is mine are stamped inside dated 2005, just before the 203/2 and the rear panel is not the usual one where there is 3 bass eq settings. My pair have the same back panel as the 203/2 with 1x Bass eq setting and 2x for HF - giving four different settings.
So have the got 203/2 crossovers despite the hypertweeter on the mk1?

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post #9009 of 10290 Old 09-16-2016, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
Where did you get the dimensions you used for the enclosures for the 3160? I might want to replace my LS50 surrounds with 3160s for a neater installation.

Ken, we are talking about the new Reference 2C and 4C.

db
And new Kef Blade Twos, right? 😊😉
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post #9010 of 10290 Old 09-16-2016, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by hatlesschimp View Post
What AMP should I be using? Class D then? I'm eyeing up another Rotel thats 5ch x 200wpc etc. So then I will have 10 Channels with 200wpc. We just dont have access to every Power Amp like america. Also the height / Atmos isnt going to get too much of a load compared to the LCR. Maybe down the track I can go a couple Monos or a Bigger Stereo for the Front Left and Right and maybe centre?

Also dont class A/B go the other way with the power where they can put out more. I see the specs around the place say 325wpc in 4ohms for the Rotel rmb 1585.
The Theta Dreadnaught D is a fantastic multi-channel amp. 225x7 into 8 ohms and 375 watts into 4 ohms. Great with music and movies!
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post #9011 of 10290 Old 09-17-2016, 04:17 AM
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Yesterday I met my son up at our KEF dealer so he could pick up the new Q500's I'd bought for him. He got there 20 minutes before me (excited much?) so I told him to ask our salesman for a demo on the Linn Majik 140 speakers they have hooked up to a Linn Majik DSM and Exaktbox amp. When I arrived I found my son sitting in front of those relatively inexpensive towers (about $3 list, $2600 street price) and he was mesmerized. Like me, he was struck by the incredible detail of the tweeter-supertweeter combo, but also by the deep range in low frequencies.

Sitting on matched stands next to the Linn speakers was a pair of KEF Reference 1's. I asked if we could hear those too. Now I'd heard them before and was impressed, but it was one of my first trips into that shop with my reborn interest in hi-fi and just a brief listen. The salesman said "sure, but not in this room." There was no other amp in the room and it's not possible to take the digital crossover DSM and 8 outputs of the Linn amp and connect to a traditional speaker. We moved them to the larger room next door and hooked up the Ref 1's to Plinius Kaitaki preamp and SB-301 power amp...it's a big one.

Streaming HD tracks through this setup to the Ref 1's and giving them a worthy workout, I was "not wowed" and told the salesman so. Yes they sounded really good, but the detail and richness of the Linn system really did appeal to us more...by a LOT. While we were driving back to our own homes, my son called me to thank me for the Q500's so I asked him what he thought of the Reference 1 and the Linn setup. He said the Ref 1 "sounds way too close to your R500 to be worth an upgrade." I had to agree, as that's exactly what I was thinking. He then offered that "I wish I hadn't heard that Linn system." What? He said he'd never heard such and expensive system before and that he's spoiled. I explained that the money in the Linn system is in the electronics, about $9500 of it, and the speakers cost only the same as my R500 (at list price, I didn't pay anywhere near that.)

My discussions with the dealer have centered around what would the Linn digital crossover and 8 channel amp do with higher-end speakers if it can make $3000 speakers sound like $10,000 speakers. Of course he suggested it could make $10,000 speakers sound like $30,000 speakers. I know Linn has at least two levels higher in speakers that are thoroughly integrated with their electronics, but has also mated Linn Exakt system to the B&W 802D3. What he didn't know is that Linn has also paired with a Reference 5. Now that's something I want to hear! I love my KEF R series and have no regrets, it's just that as my ears and tastes have evolved, there are systems with other characteristics which also appeal to me. I'm more surprised by that than anyone, being a die-hard KEF guy.

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post #9012 of 10290 Old 09-17-2016, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Yesterday I met my son up at our KEF dealer so he could pick up the new Q500's I'd bought for him. He got there 20 minutes before me (excited much?) so I told him to ask our salesman for a demo on the Linn Majik 140 speakers they have hooked up to a Linn Majik DSM and Exaktbox amp. When I arrived I found my son sitting in front of those relatively inexpensive towers (about $3 list, $2600 street price) and he was mesmerized. Like me, he was struck by the incredible detail of the tweeter-supertweeter combo, but also by the deep range in low frequencies.

Sitting on matched stands next to the Linn speakers was a pair of KEF Reference 1's. I asked if we could hear those too. Now I'd heard them before and was impressed, but it was one of my first trips into that shop with my reborn interest in hi-fi and just a brief listen. The salesman said "sure, but not in this room." There was no other amp in the room and it's not possible to take the digital crossover DSM and 8 outputs of the Linn amp and connect to a traditional speaker. We moved them to the larger room next door and hooked up the Ref 1's to Plinius Kaitaki preamp and SB-301 power amp...it's a big one.

Streaming HD tracks through this setup to the Ref 1's and giving them a worthy workout, I was "not wowed" and told the salesman so. Yes they sounded really good, but the detail and richness of the Linn system really did appeal to us more...by a LOT. While we were driving back to our own homes, my son called me to thank me for the Q500's so I asked him what he thought of the Reference 1 and the Linn setup. He said the Ref 1 "sounds way too close to your R500 to be worth an upgrade." I had to agree, as that's exactly what I was thinking. He then offered that "I wish I hadn't heard that Linn system." What? He said he'd never heard such and expensive system before and that he's spoiled. I explained that the money in the Linn system is in the electronics, about $9500 of it, and the speakers cost only the same as my R500 (at list price, I didn't pay anywhere near that.)

My discussions with the dealer have centered around what would the Linn digital crossover and 8 channel amp do with higher-end speakers if it can make $3000 speakers sound like $10,000 speakers. Of course he suggested it could make $10,000 speakers sound like $30,000 speakers. I know Linn has at least two levels higher in speakers that are thoroughly integrated with their electronics, but has also mated Linn Exakt system to the B&W 802D3. What he didn't know is that Linn has also paired with a Reference 5. Now that's something I want to hear! I love my KEF R series and have no regrets, it's just that as my ears and tastes have evolved, there are systems with other characteristics which also appeal to me. I'm more surprised by that than anyone, being a die-hard KEF guy.
Hey Ken, your post is very timely. I've been mulling over the idea of changing out my MC275 for a Linn Klimax Twin for a variety of reasons. If you get to hear the Linn with the Reference 5, I would love to get your impressions of the combination.
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post #9013 of 10290 Old 09-17-2016, 06:53 PM
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Hey Ken, your post is very timely. I've been mulling over the idea of changing out my MC275 for a Linn Klimax Twin for a variety of reasons. If you get to hear the Linn with the Reference 5, I would love to get your impressions of the combination.
Greg,

Unfortunately that won't be possible. The dealer has sold off the Reference 3 speakers they had and said they won't be bringing in any more Reference speakers unless a customer sincerely wants to buy them.

This link is where I learned that KEF had worked with Linn to get the advantages of their technology. It works amazingly well from what I have read.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/kef-tea...akt-technology

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post #9014 of 10290 Old 09-17-2016, 09:26 PM
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Greg,

Unfortunately that won't be possible. The dealer has sold off the Reference 3 speakers they had and said they won't be bringing in any more Reference speakers unless a customer sincerely wants to buy them.

This link is where I learned that KEF had worked with Linn to get the advantages of their technology. It works amazingly well from what I have read.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/kef-tea...akt-technology
Ken, thanks for the link. I did see that and other reports before and it appears to be very intriguing. They are said to be working with PMC, so hoping that using it with my Fact.8s might be an option in the near future, too.
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post #9015 of 10290 Old 09-18-2016, 05:37 AM
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Greg, I can't say for certain just how the Linn Exakt system does it to get what they do out of the electronics. I've long been one who can't discern any dramatic difference in one DAC, pre-amp or power amp to the other. Maybe little subtle differences from the cheapest to incredibly expensive, but nothing that just floored me. This DID!

From what I read the success lies in keeping the digital signal in the digital realm right though the crossover circuit that they've engineered and that is where the time alignment "Majik" really happens. Only after the crossover is done do they send (in the case of the 4-way 140 speaker) all 4 frequency signals to the power amp and onto the drivers directly. Where the signal is digital they can do all the equalization/room corrections there too and for whatever reason it just plain WORKS like nothing else I've ever heard.

Yes, I've sat in this dealer's "upstairs" high end rooms and heard dramatic sound profiles from the likes of some very expensive speakers, hooked up to some very expensive digital and/or analog (vacuum tube) equipment and been very highly impressed. What the Linn system has done to get that same (or in some cases much better) sound out of otherwise very pedestrian level speakers is to my ears, a true revelation.

Me want.

Notably, the Linn Majik 140 speakers even with their Linn electronics treatment, have a very defined "sweet spot" that is truly a one-seat deal for best performance. If they (Linn) can achieve a similar level of performance with a speaker that has an equally defined soundstage but with broader dispersion of it, as KEF is so good at doing with the Uni-Q, this is going to set a new standard of performance.

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post #9016 of 10290 Old 09-18-2016, 10:50 AM
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the Reference 4c is much much better than the R600C.
Yes, you have a great system! You definitely could buy Kef Blade Twos. You'd love them.
Could use them the way you use your 107/2s now if you like! The depth of the sound , openness and detail is much better with the Kef Blade Twos over the 107/2s. Your electronics say to me you should do that upgrade!
I'd probably love the sound of the Blade Twos, but every time I play music using the 107/2s I love their sound as well. Besides, the 107/2s are handsome in rosewood and enjoying them does not entail any outlay of funds.

Re the R600C: I've set center to "none" in the menu of the Bryston SP3, thus removing the R600C from the active setup. My wife says intelligibility is improved with its removal. The R600C seems to add energy to the speech band. The 107/2s are splendid at stereo imaging, so it's no surprise they fill the void as well as they do. I haven't decide whether to sell the R600C and JC 1 that drives it.

db
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post #9017 of 10290 Old 09-18-2016, 02:15 PM
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I'd probably love the sound of the Blade Twos, but every time I play music using the 107/2s I love their sound as well. Besides, the 107/2s are handsome in rosewood and enjoying them does not entail any outlay of funds.

Re the R600C: I've set center to "none" in the menu of the Bryston SP3, thus removing the R600C from the active setup. My wife says intelligibility is improved with its removal. The R600C seems to add energy to the speech band. The 107/2s are splendid at stereo imaging, so it's no surprise they fill the void as well as they do. I haven't decide whether to sell the R600C and JC 1 that drives it.

db
I wish you lived closer to me so you could come over to listen to Blade Twos. It will save you money if you do not hear them! The Kef 107/2 was a really nice speaker. The stereo imaging is excellent on the Kef Blade Twos as you can imagine. If you are happy, you should stick with what you have!
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post #9018 of 10290 Old 09-18-2016, 04:01 PM
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I wish you lived closer to me so you could come over to listen to Blade Twos. It will save you money if you do not hear them! The Kef 107/2 was a really nice speaker. The stereo imaging is excellent on the Kef Blade Twos as you can imagine. If you are happy, you should stick with what you have!
Well I wish I could hear your Blade Twos, but I'd rather live in Montecito. I'm not ruling Blade Twos out, and I may eventually go that route. I do have seven LS50s, said by some, most notably JA of Stereophile, to be miniature Blades without the dynamic and LF capabilities.

I tried using one of the LS50s as the center speaker with my 107/2s, but I was always aware of it as a separate source of sound. At the time, I attributed my inability to achieve a seamless sound stage to the Uni-Q driver of the LS50. But I confess that I didn't do a careful job of matching levels, and it might be worth trying it again. To me, the LS50 sounds cleaner than the R600C, without the lower mid-range emphasis. Driving an 8Ω LS50 with a 400 watt JC 1 does seem a bit crazy. OTOH, I'm sure I never use more than a few of those Class A watts in any case.

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post #9019 of 10290 Old 09-18-2016, 05:02 PM
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Greg, I can't say for certain just how the Linn Exakt system does it to get what they do out of the electronics. I've long been one who can't discern any dramatic difference in one DAC, pre-amp or power amp to the other. Maybe little subtle differences from the cheapest to incredibly expensive, but nothing that just floored me. This DID!

From what I read the success lies in keeping the digital signal in the digital realm right though the crossover circuit that they've engineered and that is where the time alignment "Majik" really happens. Only after the crossover is done do they send (in the case of the 4-way 140 speaker) all 4 frequency signals to the power amp and onto the drivers directly. Where the signal is digital they can do all the equalization/room corrections there too and for whatever reason it just plain WORKS like nothing else I've ever heard.

Yes, I've sat in this dealer's "upstairs" high end rooms and heard dramatic sound profiles from the likes of some very expensive speakers, hooked up to some very expensive digital and/or analog (vacuum tube) equipment and been very highly impressed. What the Linn system has done to get that same (or in some cases much better) sound out of otherwise very pedestrian level speakers is to my ears, a true revelation.

Me want.

Notably, the Linn Majik 140 speakers even with their Linn electronics treatment, have a very defined "sweet spot" that is truly a one-seat deal for best performance. If they (Linn) can achieve a similar level of performance with a speaker that has an equally defined soundstage but with broader dispersion of it, as KEF is so good at doing with the Uni-Q, this is going to set a new standard of performance.
Thanks for your impressions, Ken. I'm just wondering how extensive the modifications to the speakers would be and shudder at the potential cost of the additional speaker cables
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Well I wish I could hear your Blade Twos, but I'd rather live in Montecito.
I don't blame you one bit! I went to school up the road from you and my roommate was a lifeguard at the San Ysidro Ranch. I would not have left there either if work did not get in the way.
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post #9021 of 10290 Old 09-18-2016, 08:05 PM
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Thanks for your impressions, Ken. I'm just wondering how extensive the modifications to the speakers would be and shudder at the potential cost of the additional speaker cables
I'm waiting for either Linn or KEF to release some kind of information on the whole thing. It's a matter of which company will handle what, meaning will KEF sell the speakers set up for Linn Exakt technology and connections, will Linn offer the speakers together with their electronics or what.

I know you have high end speaker cables but would they really need to be that if the Exakt system is such a quantum leap in sound quality by itself?

Time will tell.

EDIT: Here's a link to a review of the exact same Linn system that I heard. On the 3rd page there's a good explanation of what Linn does to make it work so very well. And it is profound.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...-music-player/

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Last edited by KenM10759; 09-19-2016 at 04:47 AM.
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post #9022 of 10290 Old 09-19-2016, 08:18 AM
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I would think that the Q600c would be the better match, though the Q200c is no slouch. It all depends upon your budget and what you have room for. Check the dimensions on each, the Q600c is quite large, comparatively speaking.

HTH
I finally got my Q600c to go with the Q65s and Q55s. This center channel is...LARGE! I saw the dimensions, but the physical reality is still somewhat stunning.
After placing in my BDI OLA (it takes up almost the entire center space!), I played around with some sound stuff. The blend between the Q600C and the Q65s is great. It's almost as if there's a single speaker across the front of the room.
I even got yelled at by the wife when I turned the system up way loud watching Fifth Element.

All in all a good choice.

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post #9023 of 10290 Old 09-19-2016, 10:06 AM
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I'm waiting for either Linn or KEF to release some kind of information on the whole thing. It's a matter of which company will handle what, meaning will KEF sell the speakers set up for Linn Exakt technology and connections, will Linn offer the speakers together with their electronics or what.

I know you have high end speaker cables but would they really need to be that if the Exakt system is such a quantum leap in sound quality by itself?

Time will tell.

EDIT: Here's a link to a review of the exact same Linn system that I heard. On the 3rd page there's a good explanation of what Linn does to make it work so very well. And it is profound.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...-music-player/
It's funny I came to this thread for the first time in a long time to see if anyone has bypassed the internal crossover of their LS50 for an active one. I then read your posts on the Linn system. Very nice. They also have 3-way version of the system. I wish they had a 2-way version to cut costs down even further.
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post #9024 of 10290 Old 09-19-2016, 10:47 AM
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What the burn in time on speakers like the LS50, R series and Reference?

Been playing some flac music through my ci3160's. Deadmau5 ﹰStrobe sounds pretty good!
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post #9025 of 10290 Old 09-19-2016, 12:02 PM
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What the burn in time on speakers like the LS50, R series and Reference?

Been playing some flac music through my ci3160's. Deadmau5 ?Strobe sounds pretty good!
While some will discount any break in, I feel after the first three hours or so you will have done most of it. My 205/2s were run in at the dealer but I got to break in brand new Revel Studio2s and the woofers definitely loosened up after about three hours, after that I can't say I heard any further changes.
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post #9026 of 10290 Old 09-19-2016, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
EDIT: Here's a link to a review of the exact same Linn system that I heard. On the 3rd page there's a good explanation of what Linn does to make it work so very well. And it is profound.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...-music-player/
Seems like a lot of work to avoid using a microphone.

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post #9027 of 10290 Old 09-20-2016, 01:02 PM
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KEF KHT 9000 Ace wall mounts / brackets

I'm searching for a pair of kef 9000 wall mounts / brackets. Is there anyway to still get them? Or is there anyone willing to sell me two?
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post #9028 of 10290 Old 09-20-2016, 01:38 PM
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Seems like a lot of work to avoid using a microphone.
Not sure what you mean Kal. It's a fully active system, not just room correction...
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post #9029 of 10290 Old 09-20-2016, 02:59 PM
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Not sure what you mean Kal. It's a fully active system, not just room correction...
Agreed. The Linn Exakt system is not in the same class as any room correction software solution I've ever heard. None of those systems (Audyssey, Dirac, ARC, etc.) actually replaces the speaker's crossover network as the Linn system does. Consider that the crossover in a speaker is built in as part of the price of a speaker. In a very expensive speaker that may be very high end components with a lot of engineering, testing and fine tuning as part of the cost. Consider that internal crossover is handling the signal in the high power mode, making a little more heat.

With the Linn Exakt system, their electronics supplant that and move upstream to the digital stage. It can be tailored to get the best out of any speaker in any room very precisely. It's more money than most (including me) can afford, but can make a less expensive speaker with good drivers and a decent cabinet sound better than they ever did leaving the factory.

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post #9030 of 10290 Old 09-20-2016, 05:04 PM
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Agreed. The Linn Exakt system is not in the same class as any room correction software solution I've ever heard. None of those systems (Audyssey, Dirac, ARC, etc.) actually replaces the speaker's crossover network as the Linn system does.
First off, those are two different tasks and both have already been accomplished separately in many ways. An example of a product that can do both is DEQX and it uses actual measurements of the sound instead of using a predictive model.

Second, setting aside the value of converting a passive speaker to an actively amplified and filtered one, the equalization portion is based on modeling and is always an arm's length away from basing it on actual acoustical measurements.

Finally, this is not a criticism of the results which I have not experienced. It is simply a logical analysis of the system design and which I find, um, curious.

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