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post #9031 of 9053 Old 09-20-2016, 05:38 PM
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Mr. Rubinson,

I have a great deal of respect for your experience, training, background and knowledge. In no way would I dispute what you have as an opinion on something like this.

That said, I can only go by my ears and limited experience. For the demos of this Linn system I've heard, let me explain it like this. I first heard it fully set up with the Majik DSM and Magik Exaktbox 1 to the Linn Majik 140 speakers. The dealer then disconnected the Linn connections, restored the speaker's original crossover and binding post plate (it's one piece.) He then hooked the speakers up to a Marantz SR5010 receiver, SVS SB2000 sub and ran the Audyssey XT32 calibration. It sounded good for what it was.

When he returned it to the Linn setup, about a 20 minute task, it was a completely different speaker all over again. And I do mean it was a night & day improvement, not something subtle...at all. It is profound. I can only imagine what Linn could do with the likes of the B&W 802D3 and/or KEF Reference 5, both of which they have done. I'm anxious to hear it with much higher level speakers to know if the difference is similar.

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post #9032 of 9053 Old 09-21-2016, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Mr. Rubinson,

I have a great deal of respect for your experience, training, background and knowledge. In no way would I dispute what you have as an opinion on something like this.

That said, I can only go by my ears and limited experience. For the demos of this Linn system I've heard, let me explain it like this. I first heard it fully set up with the Majik DSM and Magik Exaktbox 1 to the Linn Majik 140 speakers. The dealer then disconnected the Linn connections, restored the speaker's original crossover and binding post plate (it's one piece.) He then hooked the speakers up to a Marantz SR5010 receiver, SVS SB2000 sub and ran the Audyssey XT32 calibration. It sounded good for what it was.

When he returned it to the Linn setup, about a 20 minute task, it was a completely different speaker all over again. And I do mean it was a night & day improvement, not something subtle...at all. It is profound. I can only imagine what Linn could do with the likes of the B&W 802D3 and/or KEF Reference 5, both of which they have done. I'm anxious to hear it with much higher level speakers to know if the difference is similar.
I do not question your observations. My argument is academic and theoretical until/unless there is a direct comparison of what Linn's process does compared with processes using acoustic measurements. Unlikely to happen.

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post #9033 of 9053 Old 09-21-2016, 06:00 AM
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I do not question your observations. My argument is academic and theoretical until/unless there is a direct comparison of what Linn's process does compared with processes using acoustic measurements. Unlikely to happen.
Perhaps a subject for Music in the Round?
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post #9034 of 9053 Old 09-21-2016, 06:11 AM
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I do not question your observations. My argument is academic and theoretical until/unless there is a direct comparison of what Linn's process does compared with processes using acoustic measurements. Unlikely to happen.
Perhaps some day you could get a set of this Linn product and rip into some truly scientific, objective, measured testing. I've been listening for 45 years but learning the technical details of the equipment and measurement data for a 1/4 of that. In this time I keep coming back to "it sounds good to me" or "it sounds less than good to me", in various degrees. My ears and brain are the only measuring tools I have, and they're known to be quite variable in their calibration.
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post #9035 of 9053 Old 09-21-2016, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Perhaps some day you could get a set of this Linn product and rip into some truly scientific, objective, measured testing. I've been listening for 45 years but learning the technical details of the equipment and measurement data for a 1/4 of that. In this time I keep coming back to "it sounds good to me" or "it sounds less than good to me", in various degrees. My ears and brain are the only measuring tools I have, and they're known to be quite variable in their calibration.
Yes. Instruments can inform but, ultimately, ears and brain are all that counts. I was not suggesting a bout of technical measurements but a more focused listening comparison using the same speakers (say, 802D3)in the same position in the same room, prepped by the Linn approach and by, say, DEQX or Trinnov.

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post #9036 of 9053 Old 09-21-2016, 10:59 AM
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I was just reading your article on the DEQX system. Seems right in line with the Linn Exakt system. I don't know if the Linn system comes with a microphone for measurements but can't see how it could work without one. My Linn dealer alluded to the Linn rep would come dial it in for them, so perhaps for the low volume they sell Linn does that for the individual buyer too but I really don't know.

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post #9037 of 9053 Old 09-21-2016, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I was just reading your article on the DEQX system. Seems right in line with the Linn Exakt system. I don't know if the Linn system comes with a microphone for measurements but can't see how it could work without one.
I have to say that had expected that the final room EQ would rely on a microphone but, after reading the setup instructions (rapidly), I could not find any mention of one. However, the DEQX uses acoustic/microphone measurements for setting up the crossovers as well and can be used with any speaker system. It is entirely possible that the Linn is supplying such mic measurement-based information for the products it supports.

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post #9038 of 9053 Old 09-22-2016, 04:05 AM
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Any other KEF owners notice the announcement at Cedia about the new in-wall speakers? An upgraded version of the Ci5160-THX now, for $10,000 each you can have the Ci5160REF-THX. And apparently you can get them with a black baffle and copper Uni-Q driver.

I can't afford anything like that, but wonder why they're only $1,000 each less than the Reference 5 with that gorgeous, expensive hand-crafted cabinet. I would have thought those boxes were worth more than a grand.
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post #9039 of 9053 Old 09-22-2016, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Any other KEF owners notice the announcement at Cedia about the new in-wall speakers? An upgraded version of the Ci5160-THX now, for $10,000 each you can have the Ci5160REF-THX. And apparently you can get them with a black baffle and copper Uni-Q driver.

I can't afford anything like that, but wonder why they're only $1,000 each less than the Reference 5 with that gorgeous, expensive hand-crafted cabinet. I would have thought those boxes were worth more than a grand.


I dont know why they dont go all black!
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post #9040 of 9053 Old 09-22-2016, 05:15 AM
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Good point. I was actually thinking the same thing, especially because the new ones are a THX Ultra-2 spec and that means the target is home cinema. You want less reflection and distraction.

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post #9041 of 9053 Old 09-22-2016, 05:22 AM
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The 5160RL is THX Ultra 2 as well. Not sure what it means but.

Ive been giving mine a good run. Every day 2 to 3 hours of music and a movie. Can hear them get better and better everytime i use them. Today I was able to crank them right up -10 lol, they were fantastic. Im impressed with the detail at lower volumes too.
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post #9042 of 9053 Old 09-22-2016, 05:33 AM
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post #9043 of 9053 Old 09-22-2016, 05:44 AM
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Glad to hear that they are breaking in nicely and sounding better and better. KEF hasn't stated any break-in time with their lower-end speakers, but I don't recall seeing any procedure for the better ones either. Good to know it's there.

As for the THX certification, I knew both were Ultra-2, so it must be just the top-of-the-line drivers that drives the price of the new ones so high. I still don't think it's enough to justify $10k though.

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post #9044 of 9053 Old 09-22-2016, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by hatlesschimp View Post
The 5160RL is THX Ultra 2 as well. Not sure what it means but.

Ive been giving mine a good run. Every day 2 to 3 hours of music and a movie. Can hear them get better and better everytime i use them. Today I was able to crank them right up -10 lol, they were fantastic. Im impressed with the detail at lower volumes too.
What is the mounting depth for these speakers, I am thinking of doing (2) Ci5160RL-THX and a (1)Ci3160RL-THX for a center channel? Having speakers on the ground with a 11month old is getting tiresome because he figured out how to unplug the banana plugs on my current floor standing loud speakers. Carving up my walls are not an issue I have a buddy who knows how to these types of installs extremely well and inexpensive.
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post #9045 of 9053 Old 09-24-2016, 07:09 AM
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Hi dear friends,

What you think about integrating a sub to KEF bookshelf speakers?

I've Q300s and Marantz PM6004; recently I bought a second hand PM7004 thinking that I could use the pre-out for sub integration? Also the 7series is much powerful 75W vs 45W in 6004. Strangely I felt the 6004 sounds better!! with my current setup?? I couldn't digest it as the 7 series suppose to be with better components and power output. May be I am 'used to' the 6 series sound..

Now, there is an offer for a second hand SVS SB1000 (sealed sub); which looks interesting.. I heard its tough to implement a sub to stereo?.. well How difficult it is?? What you guys advise.. should I go with a sub? I'll be keeping either PM6004 or PM7004 with me and planning to sell the other.

Using my Pioneer BDP 170 as trasport and Arcam irDAC with the current setup.

My next aim is to upgrade my speakers to R300 (I've auditioned it and its sounds great)

Should I hold my sub plan and go for R300 or may be adding a sub and wait for R??

Thanks!
Noble
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post #9046 of 9053 Old 09-24-2016, 07:24 AM
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Hi dear friends,

What you think about integrating a sub to KEF bookshelf speakers?

I've Q300s and Marantz PM6004; recently I bought a second hand PM7004 thinking that I could use the pre-out for sub integration? Also the 7series is much powerful 75W vs 45W in 6004. Strangely I felt the 6004 sounds better!! with my current setup?? I couldn't digest it as the 7 series suppose to be with better components and power output. May be I am 'used to' the 6 series sound..

Now, there is an offer for a second hand SVS SB1000 (sealed sub); which looks interesting.. I heard its tough to implement a sub to stereo?.. well How difficult it is?? What you guys advise.. should I go with a sub? I'll be keeping either PM6004 or PM7004 with me and planning to sell the other.

Using my Pioneer BDP 170 as trasport and Arcam irDAC with the current setup.

My next aim is to upgrade my speakers to R300 (I've auditioned it and its sounds great)

Should I hold my sub plan and go for R300 or may be adding a sub and wait for R??

Thanks!
Noble
Svs pairs well with the Kef Q series. I had the Q900 with the PC13U and loved them. Then I went crazy by going custom dual 18" diy subs. People say two smaller subs are better than just one sub. Go to.SVS website and see wh a t they recommend for the Q300.

Just watch out with the R300s they will probably want a decent amp so they can shine.



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post #9047 of 9053 Old 09-24-2016, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave-T View Post
What is the mounting depth for these speakers, I am thinking of doing (2) Ci5160RL-THX and a (1)Ci3160RL-THX for a center channel? Having speakers on the ground with a 11month old is getting tiresome because he figured out how to unplug the banana plugs on my current floor standing loud speakers. Carving up my walls are not an issue I have a buddy who knows how to these types of installs extremely well and inexpensive.
99mm from mounting baffle face to furthest point behind speaker. The custom cabinets i made allowed 160mm so i had 61mm gap for a sound bat and binding posts.

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post #9048 of 9053 Old 09-24-2016, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Noble Jose View Post
What you think about integrating a sub to KEF bookshelf speakers?

I've Q300s and Marantz PM6004; recently I bought a second hand PM7004 thinking that I could use the pre-out for sub integration? Also the 7series is much powerful 75W vs 45W in 6004. Strangely I felt the 6004 sounds better!! with my current setup?? I couldn't digest it as the 7 series suppose to be with better components and power output. May be I am 'used to' the 6 series sound..

Now, there is an offer for a second hand SVS SB1000 (sealed sub); which looks interesting.. I heard its tough to implement a sub to stereo?.. well How difficult it is?? What you guys advise.. should I go with a sub? I'll be keeping either PM6004 or PM7004 with me and planning to sell the other.

My next aim is to upgrade my speakers to R300 (I've auditioned it and its sounds great). Should I hold my sub plan and go for R300 or may be adding a sub and wait for R??

A sub should integrate well. You didn't mention your room size so it's hard to know if the SB1000 is the proper sub for you. I recommend you call Ed at SVS or Tom at PSA for advice. You typically want to budget for two subs if your room layout and budget allows for it. I lived with one sub for years and going to two made a huge improvement. I had 4 subs for a brief period of time to test and it was incredible but my budget didn't allow me to keep all four..

Keep a long term perspective and eventual budget in mind with whatever you purchase. I've always believed your best money is spent on your speakers and then allocate dollars elsewhere. Most of us will have our speakers for a long time so you want to do it "right" from the start if you can so you don't spend a fortune upgrading speakers all the time.


As a side note, upgrading a generation in components does not always result in better sound. We'd like to think that new models are always better but that's not necessarily the case (generally within the same price point / range). More money or the next higher tier from a manufacturer will get you better performance in AVRs and pre/pros - but the new models of the same class / price point don't automatically sound better. Your ears, as you say, may be accustomed to what you like about your existing setup which you liked. In the end, your ears are the best judge of what makes you happy.
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post #9049 of 9053 Old Today, 06:37 PM
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Im back on the trail chasing amps. I have the Rotel rmb 1585 (5ch x 200wpc) powering my two Kef 3160rl-thx just in single channel for each but just seen a second hand Rotel RB 1582 MKII which is a 2ch x 200wpc with bi amp out posts. Would I see/hear a difference adding something like this? The greater plan is to amplify 11channels (7.2.4 Atmos). I have my eye on the Rotel rmb 1555 (5ch x 120wpc) for the height speakers.
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post #9050 of 9053 Old Today, 07:13 PM
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I believe only in the most controlled critical listening tests would you (or anyone else) be able to detect a difference in amps as long as they're all calibrated. This is especially true being all Rotel amps.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noble Jose View Post
Hi dear friends,

What you think about integrating a sub to KEF bookshelf speakers?

I've Q300s and Marantz PM6004; recently I bought a second hand PM7004 thinking that I could use the pre-out for sub integration? Also the 7series is much powerful 75W vs 45W in 6004. Strangely I felt the 6004 sounds better!! with my current setup?? I couldn't digest it as the 7 series suppose to be with better components and power output. May be I am 'used to' the 6 series sound..

Now, there is an offer for a second hand SVS SB1000 (sealed sub); which looks interesting.. I heard its tough to implement a sub to stereo?.. well How difficult it is?? What you guys advise.. should I go with a sub? I'll be keeping either PM6004 or PM7004 with me and planning to sell the other.

Using my Pioneer BDP 170 as trasport and Arcam irDAC with the current setup.

My next aim is to upgrade my speakers to R300 (I've auditioned it and its sounds great)

Should I hold my sub plan and go for R300 or may be adding a sub and wait for R??

Thanks!
Noble
The Q300's are pretty good sounding speakers. I think you should do the sub upgrade first, that will make a bigger impact on your overall sound quality.
It's not that difficult to integrate a sub, yes placement is critical and you'll have to tweek the level to your preference which will require some trial and error.

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post #9052 of 9053 Old Today, 08:24 PM
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The Q300's are pretty good sounding speakers. I think you should do the sub upgrade first, that will make a bigger impact on your overall sound quality.
It's not that difficult to integrate a sub, yes placement is critical and you'll have to tweek the level to your preference which will require some trial and error.
I bought the Cambridge Audio CXA80 because it had usb and sub out. Very rare to have them all in one integrated amp.

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post #9053 of 9053 Old Today, 09:18 PM
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Tough choice there. I owned an SB1000 for about 3 months and upgraded to an SB2000. Even in my smaller space the difference was profound, and so worth it.

Where are your Q300's located in relation to walls and each other, and how big is the room? How far from the speakers are you when you're listening? What type of music and how loud is the music as you listen?

Distance from the walls matters because the R300 (great speaker, BTW) are rear-ported and the Q300 are front. By the numbers on spec sheets the two speakers (Q300 & R300) both go down to 42hz, but the R300 should have better bass if working near enough to a wall to use the effects of its rear port for increased "room gain." You can't do that with a Q300, you'd be blocking it.

I ask distance between the speakers and you to get an idea of your value on stereo imaging and overall soundstage. This is where the price difference in the speakers matters. If you're too far away or the room is really big, you may be losing a lot. A more powerful amp on paper doesn't always mean it sounds better or even goes louder. Efficiency of the amp and the speakers makes a difference. If you like the Marantz, stick with it.

I consider the R series to have better overall performance, particularly in the mid-bass right on up to the top end. They've got better quality components in the crossover and a better-built cabinet, you can hear the difference. Whether you can justify the nearly 3x higher cost is a matter of your ears, and your wallet. The Marantz will drive them ok, but you will know if you test a better quality amp just how good the speakers really are.

Upgrading the sub can help...but only with the lowest notes. If you listen to traditional jazz, classical, and rock from the 50's to late 70's, there isn't much in bass that the R300's wouldn't do just fine. An upgrade to the sub would be better if the music you like has a lot of really deep bass.

System includes KEF R500 floor standing, R200C center, R100 surrounds, SVS SB2000 subwoofer, NAD T758 receiver, Pro-Ject RPM1 turntable w/ Sumiko Pearl cartridge, Bluesound Vault, Sony BDP-S480 BlueRay player, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer, MCS System cassette deck. The last 2 items are dust collectors but will work if asked.
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Kef , Kef Audio , kef blade 2 , Kef Bookshelf Speaker , Kef C4 Subwoofer Black , Kef Center Channel Speaker , Kef Ls50 2 Way Speaker System , Kef Q100bl Bookshelf Speaker , Kef Q700wa Floorstanding Speaker , kef reference 3 , Kef T Series Floor Stand Pair



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