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post #10411 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 11:15 AM
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Thank you guys for all your help so far.
I've found out the room I'm putting the speakers in for the next year is 16ft x 17ft
Its an empty room.

Therefore would the Q700 or Q500 be a better bet? TBH I'm more concerned with clarity + bass than volume if that affects it.



KEF Q700 500 (front)
KEF Q600c 270 (middle)
KEF Q300 230 (Rear)
??

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post #10412 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by aoaaron View Post
Thank you guys for all your help so far.
I've found out the room I'm putting the speakers in for the next year is 16ft x 17ft
Its an empty room.

Therefore would the Q700 or Q500 be a better bet? TBH I'm more concerned with clarity + bass than volume if that affects it.



KEF Q700 500 (front)
KEF Q600c 270 (middle)
KEF Q300 230 (Rear)
??
Slightly better mids and clarity=Q500
Better bass, more volume=Q700
A pair of Q500's and a good sub would easily fill that room with sound.
I've made my case on both the Q500 and Q700's. Now it's up to you to decide which you prefer.
Going with Q100's as front wouldn't be a bad option since the sub will handle everthing bellow 80-90hz. The Q500 and Q100 will play at practically the same level, the main difference being the Q500 will give a few hz more bass. This would also allow a better budget for the sub.
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post #10413 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM
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I agree with pase also. Focus on getting as much high and mid range clarity as you can, and pair it with the best audyssey and subwoofer that you can afford.

IMO the q700 and q900 are in kind of an awkward space. Given the bass output they are more or less designed for the strictly 2ch segment of the market, but being a 2.5way design rather than 3way makes it a weird value proposition when compared against 2.1....

For HT where you are probably crossing over at 80-100hz the difference will be nuanced at most between q500-900
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post #10414 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 02:06 PM
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Thank you guys! I will opt for the Q500. I think I prefer more clarity. Whenever I watch a film, I always want to be able to hear what people are saying and it can annoy me wen I can't.


Please let me get this straight tho... The Q500's are better at clarity and more 'tight' whilst the Q700s seem to have more bass to them and be more open. So in theory they can run riot in a big room but overpower a small room.

A good subwoofer with the Q500's should then in theory off a clear sound with my subwoofer then compensating and doing well with the bass?




If so, which subwoofer should I get? It doesn't have to be from peter-tyson.co.uk... just a few sub reccomendations I can get from other stores even in the UK. I've realised that bundle doesn't save me much or any money as opposed to buying things separatley so I don't need to be tried to a crappy subwoofer if thats going to be limiting the package.


Q500x2
Q200cx1
Q100x2

AVR-3300
Subwoofer???

Then I'm done? Do I go for Q100s or Q300s as rears?




Please bare in mind I'm a guy who has only ever listened to music from his LED TV speakers!! so I hope I'm in for a treat.

I spoke to my friend on the phone who has a HT and he said dont worry about volume as all these speaker packages will pack enough volume to make neighbours want to kill me. concentrate on clarity and tightness of sound as for the room size, hes sure most speakers will more than do the job.
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post #10415 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aoaaron View Post
Thank you guys! I will opt for the Q500. I think I prefer more clarity. Whenever I watch a film, I always want to be able to hear what people are saying and it can annoy me wen I can't.


Please let me get this straight tho... The Q500's are better at clarity and more 'tight' whilst the Q700s seem to have more bass to them and be more open. So in theory they can run riot in a big room but overpower a small room.

A good subwoofer with the Q500's should then in theory off a clear sound with my subwoofer then compensating and doing well with the bass?




If so, which subwoofer should I get? It doesn't have to be from peter-tyson.co.uk... just a few sub reccomendations I can get from other stores even in the UK. I've realised that bundle doesn't save me much or any money as opposed to buying things separatley so I don't need to be tried to a crappy subwoofer if thats going to be limiting the package.


Q500x2
Q200cx1
Q100x2

AVR-3300
Subwoofer???

Then I'm done? Do I go for Q100s or Q300s as rears?




Please bare in mind I'm a guy who has only ever listened to music from his LED TV speakers!! so I hope I'm in for a treat.

I spoke to my friend on the phone who has a HT and he said dont worry about volume as all these speaker packages will pack enough volume to make neighbours want to kill me. concentrate on clarity and tightness of sound as for the room size, hes sure most speakers will more than do the job.
Your friend gave you solid advice and I agree with him 100%.
We would need to know your subwoofer budget in order to make appropriate recommendations.

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post #10416 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 02:18 PM
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Hmmm say from £300-£500

The higher the price, the less likely I'll get the AVR 3300 and opt for the 2300 instead.
AVR wise, would i be best off going for a lesser model AVR and getting a better sub?


Also should I get Q300 or Q100s for rears?

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post #10417 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 02:43 PM
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Then I'm done? Do I go for Q100s or Q300s as rears?

Please bare in mind I'm a guy who has only ever listened to music from his LED TV speakers!! so I hope I'm in for a treat.

I spoke to my friend on the phone who has a HT and he said dont worry about volume as all these speaker packages will pack enough volume to make neighbours want to kill me. concentrate on clarity and tightness of sound as for the room size, hes sure most speakers will more than do the job.
Wow you are in for a treat. I agree with your friend. Also, grab the Q100 for surrounds. Beyond needing to make reasonable noise, surrounds contribute very little to the overall soundtrack in most movies. For movies the most important is the center channel, since most dialog comes almost exclusively through it. Front L/R are close behind. I'd focus any extra money on those areas and just make sure you get something competent for surrounds.
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post #10418 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 02:45 PM
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Wow you are in for a treat. I agree with your friend. Also, grab the Q100 for surrounds. Beyond needing to make reasonable noise, surrounds contribute very little to the overall soundtrack in most movies. For movies the most important is the center channel, since most dialog comes almost exclusively through it. Front L/R are close behind. I'd focus any extra money on those areas and just make sure you get something competent for surrounds.


Thanks, so by centre channel you mean the 200c? Are you saying I should opt for the 600c instead?

Sorry to sound like an idiot! I'm just so lost and trying to piece everything together!
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post #10419 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 02:52 PM
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Thanks, so by centre channel you mean the 200c? Are you saying I should opt for the 600c instead?

Sorry to sound like an idiot! I'm just so lost and trying to piece everything together!
Yes exactly, and don't worry about asking questions, this stuff is pretty complicated. It's worth it though, in the end you are going to be set for a very long time......until the upgrade addiction kicks in

If you can afford it the 600c is more capable. User @KenM10759 has compared both the q200c and q600c side by side and came away with the conclusion that the 600c is much better. You can search the thread or he might chime in

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post #10420 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM
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Hmmm say from £300-£500

The higher the price, the less likely I'll get the AVR 3300 and opt for the 2300 instead.
AVR wise, would i be best off going for a lesser model AVR and getting a better sub?


Also should I get Q300 or Q100s for rears?
The Denon 3300 seems reasonably priced compared to others on the site you linked above. I'd stick with that though the 2300 would be plenty unless you plan to expand beyond 7.1 for which you'd need a separate amp.
BK subs get good reviews are generally well liked on UK forums and are reasonably priced. If you can extend your budget a little, the Monolith plus.
http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofe...th-FF_Plus.htm
For a little less but still a good sub, the P12-300SB-DF
http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/P12300SB-DF.htm

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post #10421 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 07:46 PM
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"Speaker break in" is a concept invented by shameless hucksters to prey on the technically illiterate. It has no basis in fact. Any speaker company that hypes up break in is covering for junk product.

Now, might your ears need a little bit of time to acclimate to something new? Sure.


And what basis in fact are you using to back up your claim that speaker break in is "invented?


Speakers have moving parts and, just on that fact alone, it is highly probable that the sound/performance will change some over time. It's really not that different from break in of an automobile engine. If taken to the extreme (i.e. auto engine with over 100k+ miles or a speaker with 10k+ hours), would it be reasonable to expect the performance to be the same as brand new ?

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post #10422 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 08:49 PM
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Hmmm say from £300-£500

The higher the price, the less likely I'll get the AVR 3300 and opt for the 2300 instead.
AVR wise, would i be best off going for a lesser model AVR and getting a better sub?


Also should I get Q300 or Q100s for rears?
aoaaron I have a very lightly used Denon AVR-x3200 that I was going to list for sale, if you're interested send me a PM. It was only used for a couple of months in a rental between houses and has all original packaging. There isn't much difference between it and the 3300 and it will be a lot cheaper.
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post #10423 of 10427 Old Yesterday, 10:17 PM
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And what basis in fact are you using to back up your claim that speaker break in is "invented?
The problem with "alternative facts" is that they sound just plausible enough for someone who doesn't actually know anything to wonder if they are in fact true. But ultimately they are just vile propaganda targeting dumb people.

Here's Dr. Floyd Toole's description of the only actual scientific inquiry into the break-in scam known to me:

"In parts of the audio industry, there is a belief that all components from wires to electronics to loudspeakers need to 'break in.' Out of the box, it is assumed that they will not be performing at their best. Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation, writing extensively about changes in performance that they claim are easily audible in several aspects of device performance. Yet, the author is not aware of any controlled test in which any consequential audible differences were found, even in loudspeakers, where there would seem to be some opportunities for material changes. A few years ago, to satisfy a determined marketing person, the [Harman] research group performed a test using samples of a loudspeaker that was claimed to benefit from 'breaking in.' Measurements before and after the recommended break-in showed no differences in frequency response, except a very tiny change around 30–40 Hz in the one area where break-in effects could be expected: woofer compliance. Careful lisening tests revealed no audible differences. None of this was surprising to the engineering staff. It is not clear whether the marketing person was satisfied by the finding. To all of us, this has to be very reassuring because it means that the performance of loudspeakers is stable, except for the known small change in woofer compliance caused by exercising the suspension and the deterioration—breaking down—of foam surrounds and some diaphragm materials with time, moisture, and atmospheric pollutants. It is fascinating to note that 'breaking-in' seems always to result in an improvement in performance. Why? Do all mechanical and electrical devices and materials acquire a musical aptitude that is missing in their virgin state? Why is it never reversed, getting worse with use? The reality is that engineers seek out materials, components, and construction methods that do not change with time. Suppose that the sound did improve over time as something broke in. What then? Would it eventually decline, just as wine goes 'over the hill'? One can imagine an advertisement for a vintage loudspeaker: 'An audiophile dream. Model XX, manufactured 2004, broken in with Mozart, Schubert, and acoustic jazz. Has never played anything more aggressive than the Beatles. Originally $1700/pair. Now at their performance peak—a steal at $3200!'"
Toole, Sound Reproduction, at 353
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post #10424 of 10427 Old Today, 06:29 AM
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The problem with "alternative facts" is that they sound just plausible enough for someone who doesn't actually know anything to wonder if they are in fact true. But ultimately they are just vile propaganda targeting dumb people.



Here's Dr. Floyd Toole's description of the only actual scientific inquiry into the break-in scam known to me:



"In parts of the audio industry, there is a belief that all components from wires to electronics to loudspeakers need to 'break in.' Out of the box, it is assumed that they will not be performing at their best. Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation, writing extensively about changes in performance that they claim are easily audible in several aspects of device performance. Yet, the author is not aware of any controlled test in which any consequential audible differences were found, even in loudspeakers, where there would seem to be some opportunities for material changes. A few years ago, to satisfy a determined marketing person, the [Harman] research group performed a test using samples of a loudspeaker that was claimed to benefit from 'breaking in.' Measurements before and after the recommended break-in showed no differences in frequency response, except a very tiny change around 30–40 Hz in the one area where break-in effects could be expected: woofer compliance. Careful lisening tests revealed no audible differences. None of this was surprising to the engineering staff. It is not clear whether the marketing person was satisfied by the finding. To all of us, this has to be very reassuring because it means that the performance of loudspeakers is stable, except for the known small change in woofer compliance caused by exercising the suspension and the deterioration—breaking down—of foam surrounds and some diaphragm materials with time, moisture, and atmospheric pollutants. It is fascinating to note that 'breaking-in' seems always to result in an improvement in performance. Why? Do all mechanical and electrical devices and materials acquire a musical aptitude that is missing in their virgin state? Why is it never reversed, getting worse with use? The reality is that engineers seek out materials, components, and construction methods that do not change with time. Suppose that the sound did improve over time as something broke in. What then? Would it eventually decline, just as wine goes 'over the hill'? One can imagine an advertisement for a vintage loudspeaker: 'An audiophile dream. Model XX, manufactured 2004, broken in with Mozart, Schubert, and acoustic jazz. Has never played anything more aggressive than the Beatles. Originally $1700/pair. Now at their performance peak—a steal at $3200!'"

Toole, Sound Reproduction, at 353


I think what is really happening is people adapt to the new sound of their new speakers. I have noticed that I liked my new speakers and headphones more after a couple of months of use. I think just because I have gotten use to their sound signatures.


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post #10425 of 10427 Unread Today, 09:39 AM
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Not 100% true. While no KEF speakers I've heard require break-in, I know of two reputable speaker makers who do advise break-in and most owners do report they sound better after a certain amount of time. Those would be Dynaudio and Totem.
Any speaker co. which pushes their speaker Beak product gravitates towards the huckster end of the speaker brand spectrum, IMO.

https://totemacoustic.com/en/accessories

They used to have more detail "supporting" the so-called benefits of their Beaks, but they've since smartened up and simplified the description. It still leaves enough there to entice those who would be more easily swayed, but now vague enough to minimize closer scrutiny of their product claim.
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post #10426 of 10427 Unread Today, 09:48 AM
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I think what is really happening is people adapt to the new sound of their new speakers.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people will agree with this in principle, then quickly follow up with the "but" (this didn't apply to me, the sound of my speakers really really did change!).
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post #10427 of 10427 Unread Today, 10:08 AM
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I think what is really happening is people adapt to the new sound of their new speakers. I have noticed that I liked my new speakers and headphones more after a couple of months of use. I think just because I have gotten use to their sound signatures.


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Speaker company's don't want you returning their products so they suggest 70+ hours to get used to the sound in case you don't like it hoping you'll just get used to it by then. Typically when I really like the sound of a speaker, it sounds good out of the box and takes only a few hours for my ears to adjust. If it doesn't sound good after a day or two, not the right speaker....time to move on.

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