B&W Owner's Thread - Page 166 - AVS Forum
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post #4951 of 19995 Old 08-26-2009, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kcrow View Post

I finally have the cash to go Nautilus...

Not to come off as an asshat, but I have to correct you.
What you're looking at is commonly referred to as the "800 series".
This is the "Nautilus":

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post #4952 of 19995 Old 08-26-2009, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by thedankone View Post

I disagree about the "all amps sound alike" my Onkyo 875 is much more forward then my old Marantz 5001.

I don't want to turn this into an 'all amps sound the same' debate for two reasons: 1) there's plenty of threads dedicated to that subject and this is supposed to be the B&W owner's thread and 2) all amps do sound the same so there's no need to debate.

I think your confusion lies in the fact that you're getting your terminologies mixed up.
An amplifier is very simply "an electronic component or circuit for amplifying power, current, or voltage" or [even simpler] "a device that takes a small electric signal and converts it into a large one".
A receiver, OTOH, not only amplifies a signal but it generally also does some form of 'digital signal processing' (DSP).
So I would expect that the Onkyo might sound different than the Marantz since they are probably using different DSP. Also, without knowing the specs on either receiver, they probably are using different DACs (digital to analog converter) which might also impact the sound.
But if you ripped out the amplification section of those 2 receivers and tested them side-by-by, you wouldn't hear a difference.

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post #4953 of 19995 Old 08-26-2009, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by thedankone View Post

I disagree about the "all amps sound alike" my Onkyo 875 is much more forward then my old Marantz 5001.

I believe that you can hear a difference between the two. But A/B'ing amps is really hard to do fairly (something dealers typically know). There are a few aspects to this:

First, even very small differences in volume impact your perception of what you hear. For most people, louder sounds better, others may hear louder as more forward or harsh. The problem is that this true even when the volume levels are so close that you don't directly notice the difference in loudness. Making sure the two are driving the speakers to the exact same volume level -close enough to avoid the perception problem - is difficult without measurement equipment.

Second, most people have very short-lived hearing memory, and physically rewiring and releveling the volume levels takes time. So it's physically hard to do quickly enough to be able to rely on your memory. If you have to relevel the volume level (if you're using a preamp), its difficult to do this without wiping your memory. HT stores generally have equipment to quickly swich amps, but in my experience, they never hook up the expensive stuff this way.

So, I think it would be hard to compare the Onkyo and Marantz - the Onkyo has a lot more power, and it would be difficult to level the volumes without impacting the result. I wouldn't be surprised if you did believe the Onkyo was more forward.

I'm not claiming that all amps sound the same. But my experience in comparing amps is that if you have two good quality amps which both have enough power to properly drive the speakers you're using at the volume levels you need, you're not going to hear a difference due to the amp.

BTW, I agree with Big L's comments above.

-Reid (not trying to piss off buyers of esoteric amps)
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post #4954 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big L View Post

Not to come off as an asshat, but I have to correct you.
What you're looking at is commonly referred to as the "800 series".
This is the "Nautilus":

I was thinking the exact same thing, but did not post it.

Also, there is definitely a difference in sound between tube amps and solid state amps.
Differentiating between solid state amps is very subtle and much more difficult to do.
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post #4955 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLPIII View Post

I was thinking the exact same thing, but did not post it.

Also, there is definitely a difference in sound between tube amps and solid state amps.
Differentiating between solid state amps is very subtle and much more difficult to do.

I still want to hear a set of these... I bet they are crazy )
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post #4956 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 09:47 AM
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Hey all, I am looking for a little info on a pair of CM5 s. I am a big fan of Paradigm and have a full set of Paradigm in my home theater. I was in a hi-fi shop a few days ago just looking for a CD player and the shop sold only B&W speakers. The set up was the NAD cd player that I got and a NAD amp all playing on a set of CM5's. The sound of the CM's was nuts. How can that small of speaker create that large of sound. I had to ask if the sub in the corner was on.The owner told me that when B&W started out in speakers there bread and butter was bookshelf speakers. I was wondering if any CM5 owners can comment on them. Was it the room in the store that was treated just right to get that great sound or can these bookshelfs perform?
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post #4957 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace27 View Post

Hey all, I am looking for a little info on a pair of CM5 s. I am a big fan of Paradigm and have a full set of Paradigm in my home theater. I was in a hi-fi shop a few days ago just looking for a CD player and the shop sold only B&W speakers. The set up was the NAD cd player that I got and a NAD amp all playing on a set of CM5's. The sound of the CM's was nuts. How can that small of speaker create that large of sound. I had to ask if the sub in the corner was on.The owner told me that when B&W started out in speakers there bread and butter was bookshelf speakers. I was wondering if any CM5 owners can comment on them. Was it the room in the store that was treated just right to get that great sound or can these bookshelfs perform?

I am not a CM5 owner, but I have heard the CM5s many times at my local dealer. They are fantastic speakers. A little too pricey for me (third kids on the way is cutting into my electronics expenses) but great speakers. I continue to be suprised by how well many of these bookshelf speakers perform.

I dealer was running a Rotel amp and receiver on them and the sound is great. Only reason I can see to question a purchase of a bookshelf is if you have a rather large room. But if a bookshelf speaker style works for your setup, these are great.
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post #4958 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 01:58 PM
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I have B&W 684 for fronts; 685 in rear and HTM62 for center in a room that's 15x13x8-a small room for this modest HT. And I'm not so satisfied with the HTM62. Should I have gone with the 61? Would it have made much of a difference paired with the 684/685?

Lastly, I must get a sub. I would appreciate what YOU would get given the above. (cost is not concern. just wouldn't want to mismatch or overkill the rest of the system).
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post #4959 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

Should I have gone with the 61?

I have yet to hear a kind word about the HTM61.
If you have the space and you can get your hands on a single, I'd look into a 685 as a center.
Or you could jump up into the (newly discontinued) 700 series and try out an HTM7...

Quote:


Lastly, I must get a sub. I would appreciate what YOU would get given the above. (cost is not concern. just wouldn't want to mismatch or overkill the rest of the system).

Well you have the usual suspects of Hsu, SVS and eD.
But if I were in the market for a sub right now, I'd take a long, hard look at Rythmik. Something like an F12G would probably give you what you're looking for.

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post #4960 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 03:14 PM
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Just curious as to why no one on here ever recommends B&W subs?
I have 3. 2 ASW 855s and an ASW3000.
B&W subs blend very well with all their lines, and I really like mine a lot.
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post #4961 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 03:32 PM
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Mind if I ask for the short version as to why the HTM61 is generally disliked? I've seen comments all over the place; some like them, others despise them, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of support as to why.

Long story, but I'm looking at buying two front towers and a center in the next few months to replace a pair of Bose bookshelves I've had since the middle of high school 15 years ago. My primary focus is on Klipsch RFs but have decided to take a look at B&W 683s to see how they work out. No rush on any of this especially since the dealers are all at least 60-90 minutes away in opposite directions.
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post #4962 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLPIII View Post

Just curious as to why no one on here ever recommends B&W subs?
I have 3. 2 ASW 855s and an ASW3000.
B&W subs blend very well with all their lines, and I really like mine a lot.

Good question, I guess. I didn't even think to demo one when I bought my speakers. Of the subs I listened to, I liked JL's f113 best becasue it was small and offers the the ability to boost low end punch regardless Eq / processing used elsewhere in the chain.

Maybe it's lack of marketing. I remember the subs being well regarded 5 - 10 years ago. Or maybe technology has caught up to the point where you can get as good or better for less money now. Not sure, but I completely forgot they made subs and my dealer didn't make it a point to remind me when I was buying.

 

 

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post #4963 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Snugglebear View Post

Mind if I ask for the short version as to why the HTM61 is generally disliked? I've seen comments all over the place; some like them, others despise them, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of support as to why.

The primary issue with the HTM61 is that the design will have terrible dispersal characteristics (this is true with most horizontal center channels). It may in fact be fine if you always can sit in the "sweet spot". Although in that case, I might be tempted to forgo the center speaker altogether and use a phantom center.
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post #4964 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 05:12 PM
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How much of a spread does it offer in your estimation? My living room is setup such that the couch and recliner are both off-center by about 20-30 degrees from the TV (where the center would reside). It works for room flow and allows me to enjoy the fireplace and front windows which are perpendicular to the TV and parallel with the couch. And I really do want a center; the wiring wouldn't work for 5.1 and chances are I'll only be in this place another year so it's not worthwhile. A 3.1 is the best option IMHO.

Some of the Klipsch centers offer good horizontal dispersal, at least enough to keep me happy 20-30 degrees off center. But then they use wide arc horns.
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post #4965 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

I have B&W 684 for fronts; 685 in rear and HTM62 for center in a room that's 15x13x8-a small room for this modest HT. And I'm not so satisfied with the HTM62. Should I have gone with the 61? Would it have made much of a difference paired with the 684/685?

Lastly, I must get a sub. I would appreciate what YOU would get given the above. (cost is not concern. just wouldn't want to mismatch or overkill the rest of the system).

Are you sure that it is 62 your are not satisfied with and not 684s? On what kind of material is it lacking?
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post #4966 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 07:43 PM
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I've used the HTM61 with the 684, 683, and now the 804S and it's not that far off voice matching even the 804S. I think people are blowing it's "bad" performance a little out of proportion. It's not a bad speaker from my experience using it with both floorstanders in the 600 series then all the way up to floorstanders in the 800 series. When I get my HTM3S then I'll do a good center comparison, but I'm just not hearing it as a bad center from my experience with it so far....

EDIT: BTW my HTM61 is on A'Gon for $299....
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post #4967 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Are you sure that it is 62 your are not satisfied with and not 684s? On what kind of material is it lacking?


Yes, I'm not very impressed with the 684's either but then I'm just learning there is more to getting sound appeal than just plugging speakers into a receiver. For music, they seem to lack character, depth or contrast (don't know how else to describe) relative to some other systems I've heard. For HT, ie, movies, they seem OK. But for this cost I just get OK? One mistake I have made is to place the 62 (center) on the bottom shelf of the stand I must bring it up directly under the TV screen more on a plane with the ear.
Perhaps I've limited their potential by not having the overall sound system properly adjusted, although I'm not sure yet how to optimize.
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post #4968 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace27 View Post

Hey all, I am looking for a little info on a pair of CM5 s. I am a big fan of Paradigm and have a full set of Paradigm in my home theater. I was in a hi-fi shop a few days ago just looking for a CD player and the shop sold only B&W speakers.

The CM series are fantastic little speakers, so what you heard was no trick. I own and like Paradigm and B&W and I can say I have a sweet spot in my heart for the CM's (the whole line).

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post #4969 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emig5m View Post

I've used the HTM61 with the 684, 683, and now the 804S and it's not that far off voice matching even the 804S. I think people are blowing it's "bad" performance a little out of proportion. It's not a bad speaker from my experience using it with both floorstanders in the 600 series then all the way up to floorstanders in the 800 series. When I get my HTM3S then I'll do a good center comparison, but I'm just not hearing it as a bad center from my experience with it so far....

EDIT: BTW my HTM61 is on A'Gon for $299....

Tempting Emig5m, tempting....
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post #4970 of 19995 Old 08-27-2009, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

Yes, I'm not very impressed with the 684's either but then I'm just learning there is more to getting sound appeal than just plugging speakers into a receiver. For music, they seem to lack character, depth or contrast (don't know how else to describe) relative to some other systems I've heard. For HT, ie, movies, they seem OK. But for this cost I just get OK? One mistake I have made is to place the 62 (center) on the bottom shelf of the stand I must bring it up directly under the TV screen more on a plane with the ear.
Perhaps I've limited their potential by not having the overall sound system properly adjusted, although I'm not sure yet how to optimize.

684 is not good speaker overall. It is better to get 683 or have 685 all around. I also noticed that 6xx series has quite narrow radiation pattern, thus you need to direct them to the listener. If you place center speaker low enough, you have to tilt it up. Also do not forget that it needs enough space behind it. Sensitivity of 62 is lower than any 68x speaker, so you need to compensate it by increasing signal level of center channel. If your receiver has room response correction capabilities, use it - you will notice improvement right away.
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post #4971 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emig5m View Post

I've used the HTM61 with the 684, 683, and now the 804S and it's not that far off voice matching even the 804S. I think people are blowing it's "bad" performance a little out of proportion. It's not a bad speaker from my experience using it with both floorstanders in the 600 series then all the way up to floorstanders in the 800 series. When I get my HTM3S then I'll do a good center comparison, but I'm just not hearing it as a bad center from my experience with it so far....

EDIT: BTW my HTM61 is on A'Gon for $299....

I have a HTM61 center with a pair of 683s and it does match pretty well with those speakers. I will admit, it is not a great speaker, but when paired correctly performs very well.
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post #4972 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 08:39 AM
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Enigma - I was just about to buy your center, but you painted it nooooooooooooo. I'm sure you did a good job but I needed cherry.
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post #4973 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 09:10 AM
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I'm thinking I will swap out the 684s for 683s for the front stage. Room is rather small at 1560 cuft. So, will I be getting any noticeable difference in sound quality from this upgrade without having to crank up volume?

Also, I'm thinking of a JLf113 for the sub with the 683/685/HTM61 combo
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post #4974 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

I'm thinking I will swap out the 684s for 683s for the front stage. Room is rather small at 1560 cuft. So, will I be getting any noticeable difference in sound quality from this upgrade without having to crank up volume?

Also, I'm thinking of a JLf113 for the sub with the 683/685/HTM61 combo

Have you heard the 683s? I have never heard a pair of 684s, but the 683s are considered bassy speakers with a deeper lower sound. You should demo them and do a comparison with your 684s. When listening, if setup correctly, judge the difference in sound.. that should be a good gadge of what the difference in sound will be like in your setup.
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post #4975 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 09:50 AM
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Since it's been a long month of 70-hour weeks - the 683s are front-ported speakers, meaning they can be settled closer to a wall than a rear-ported counterpart, correct? And yes, I realize they're still supposed to be placed out from the wall a ways for proper sound.
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post #4976 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebear View Post

How much of a spread does it offer in your estimation?

I'm afraid I can't really give you an estimate. It will be very poor compared to a vertically oriented speaker (like a 685). How it plays out in an individual's room may vary though, and some folks are happy with the 61, while others find it to be pretty weak.

Quote:


Some of the Klipsch centers offer good horizontal dispersal, at least enough to keep me happy 20-30 degrees off center. But then they use wide arc horns.

That probably helps. As far as I know, all horizontally arranged MTM speakers do represent a compromise in this area. If one can fit a vertically oriented speaker, it will certainly be better in this regard.

But this also depends on how picky the listener is. I have a fairly small budget home theater (most of my money is invested in a separate 2 channel setup) and I'm completely content with it even though I know it's a compromise. My HT is based on Paradigm phantoms for L&R, Atoms for surrounds and a horizontal Paradigm center channel + a Paradigm sub.

If I was a multi-channel music nut or a big movie fan I'd probably invest more in that setup and get matching speakers for LCR and a more capable sub, but for me, 2 channel is where I get most of my listening pleasure (I have B&W 703s driven by a Rotel RB1070). So, despite knowing that I've got some compromises in my home theater I'm not at all bothered by that. I do enjoy movies and concert DVDs when I watch them and the system is resolving and engaging enough that I'm not likely to bother upgrading it.
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post #4977 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thedankone View Post

Enigma - I was just about to buy your center, but you painted it nooooooooooooo. I'm sure you did a good job but I needed cherry.

I "think" acetone would take the paint off and not damage the vinyl underneath but I'm not about to try it as that is potential disaster and it really does match the rest of my 600 series in black perfectly, lol. I'm basically waiting on the sale of my center to order a brand new HTM3S to go with my 804S's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

I'm thinking I will swap out the 684s for 683s for the front stage. Room is rather small at 1560 cuft. So, will I be getting any noticeable difference in sound quality from this upgrade without having to crank up volume?

Good choice! I've had all the B&W 600 series in home except the 686 and the 683's are much better than the 684! Swapping back and forth the FST midrange alone is worth it to me! Better bass strength, lower/deeper bass, bigger soundstage, clearer and more open and detailed mids (my favorite thing about the 683).... they're a winner!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post

Also, I'm thinking of a JLf113 for the sub with the 683/685/HTM61 combo

Sounds like a killer system to me! Go for it! Go for it! Don't even think, just do it!
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post #4978 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 03:21 PM
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I can't believe you'd paint over cherry, even if it is a artificial veneer. It's such a beautiful hue and the real stuff becomes a much deeper, richer red with age. It complements teak just wonderfully.

So, if I'm understanding everyone correctly, it's probably worth it to wander aimlessly around the auditioning room while taking a listen. It may even be worth it to wander outside said room while the door is open to see how it would sound in other rooms (not an uncommon situation for me, I can't sit still). The true challenge to test will be standing about 20 feet to the side of them to see what they'd sound like in the kitchen. Yes, I realize it's not a perfect test nor what they're designed to do.

This system is the primary one for my condo. My computer has a classic set of Klipsch Promedias from when they first came out and those work well for music when I'm in the home office. The main system feeds the living room and kitchen area, use is probably over 70% music, 30% movie/TV. That and the wiring concerns lead me to the 3.1 solution. My ears aren't the most sensitive in the world but I will admit to liking a brighter speaker, especially when there's a sub in the loop; a bright speaker with a good midrange tends to mesh and balance with a sub IMHO. Oh, and I don't listen to anything at very loud levels nor is my place all that big. The goal is to buy a set of speakers providing the biggest bang for the buck - anything over $3000 for a 3.1 hits diminishing returns in my eyes - that will last me a few decades.
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post #4979 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 03:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snugglebear View Post

I can't believe you'd paint over cherry, even if it is a artificial veneer. It's such a beautiful hue and the real stuff becomes a much deeper, richer red with age. It complements teak just wonderfully.

So, if I'm understanding everyone correctly, it's probably worth it to wander aimlessly around the auditioning room while taking a listen. It may even be worth it to wander outside said room while the door is open to see how it would sound in other rooms (not an uncommon situation for me, I can't sit still). The true challenge to test will be standing about 20 feet to the side of them to see what they'd sound like in the kitchen. Yes, I realize it's not a perfect test nor what they're designed to do.

This system is the primary one for my condo. My computer has a classic set of Klipsch Promedias from when they first came out and those work well for music when I'm in the home office. The main system feeds the living room and kitchen area, use is probably over 70% music, 30% movie/TV. That and the wiring concerns lead me to the 3.1 solution. My ears aren't the most sensitive in the world but I will admit to liking a brighter speaker, especially when there's a sub in the loop; a bright speaker with a good midrange tends to mesh and balance with a sub IMHO. Oh, and I don't listen to anything at very loud levels nor is my place all that big. The goal is to buy a set of speakers providing the biggest bang for the buck - anything over $3000 for a 3.1 hits diminishing returns in my eyes - that will last me a few decades.

if you are considering the HTM61 you should consider waltzing out of the store. It sounds better if it can't be heard.
$3000 should get you into the CM line.
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post #4980 of 19995 Old 08-28-2009, 04:08 PM
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Hi All,

I'm pleased to write my 1st message on this forum (and like this practise my english )

tomorrow I will go to the shop and buy the cm5's for the front, I have already cm1's for the surround. Following the pack proposed by b&w I was thinking to take a CMC (the room is small +/- 15 m²) but as I read a long part of this thread it looks like the CMC2 is far better.

which center speaker is the best for me ?

Thanks in advance for my answer

Best regards

Vincent
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B W , Bowers And Wilkings 685 Speakers , carver cm-1090
Gear in this thread - cm-1090 by PriceGrabber.com

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