B&W Owner's Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 18940 Old 02-10-2007, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccur View Post

It's really in the eye of the beholder. The tones are close enough not to be an issue for me, and the Salamander and speakers don't sit in direct light. Therefore, wood color tone matching is not an issue for me. YMMV.

I do not post to contest whether or not you "like" the tone and how well it matches your speakers, and it is clear from your statement that you do see differences, you just don't care that they are different.

I posted to warn people who have my model speaker that the dark cherry of the Salamanders and the light cherry of the 800 Diamond series only match in terms of wood grain, not closely in terms of the color. This is particularly important because it is difficult to tell that this is the case from the Salamander website. I have had friends come over and comment on how they don't match. If I knew they were that far off in color I would not have purchased the Salamander to begin with, since at the time, it was purchased to be placed between and a few feet back from the speakers, where the contrast between the two is quite noticable. I did not post so you would take it personally. I posted to warn potential customers like myself, who are concerned with the gear looking similar enough not to screw up their decor.

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post #632 of 18940 Old 02-10-2007, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

I find that the port plug produces a more even balance of sound.

Is bass response too much without port-plugs?
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post #633 of 18940 Old 02-10-2007, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

Is bass response too much without port-plugs?

In my case, yes. Without the plug it produces too much of a mid-bass peak, even though they are away from the back wall. However, things may be different in other locations.


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post #634 of 18940 Old 02-10-2007, 06:17 PM
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beautiful speakers, peter. I hope you enjoy them.

I'm thinking of an cm1s with cmc in the front, paired with my Arcam avr100. Eventually, when the room dictates, i'd then get cm7s for the front.
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post #635 of 18940 Old 02-10-2007, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

Is bass response too much without port-plugs?

It depends on the room. Sometimes there is a room acoustical peak in the bass region depending on the exact location of the speaker (not necessarily close to the boundary) that is excited. The port plug can help to take away about 1-5db of the bass below approx 110hz in my experience.
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post #636 of 18940 Old 02-10-2007, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Matro5 View Post

beautiful speakers, peter. I hope you enjoy them.

I'm thinking of an cm1s with cmc in the front, paired with my Arcam avr100. Eventually, when the room dictates, i'd then get cm7s for the front.

Thank you. It is funny that the CM 7 looks so tiny compared to the Klipsch RF 5, yet it is quite a capable performer. People assume it is the larger speaker playing!
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post #637 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Sometimes there is a room acoustical peak in the bass region depending on the exact location of the speaker (not necessarily close to the boundary) that is excited.

just curious, how are you guy's determining these "acoustical peaks", with an SPL meter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

The port plug can help to take away about 1-5db of the bass below approx 110hz in my experience.

yeah, I've played around with the port-plugs on my new Energy RC-Series (RC-30) floor-standers and it seems to nearly remove most of the bass-response, they sounded nice but "shallow". So I have them like 14 inches out from the wall, without port-plugs, bass-response is very prominent but balanced. My room is bad acoustically- wood-floors, aluminum mini-blinds directly opposite my fronts, however, still pretty good sounding system.


But I really like the sound of these CM7's.........I would be curious to hear a side-by-side comparison with Energy RC-series.
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post #638 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 04:02 AM
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Even though you can use either SPL meters or more professional calculation tools to find the peaks you can often easily make it out yourself just by listening. I had some major problems with upper bass response making the bass to amplify by the room itself. Playing around with positioning and testing with or without the foam plugs helped immensly. It should be noted as well that we have different sound ideals so if you like the stronger bass response, by all means don't do squat about it.
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post #639 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

just curious, how are you guy's determining these "acoustical peaks", with an SPL meter?

I use a microphone and ETF to measure my room response. I did however initially (before I had the microphone and ETF) use a SPL on a tripod and self made disc. I used one of the free programs online to make tones at different frequency intervals and then burned them to a disc so I could measure the FR with the SPL meter and mark them down on paper. When I realized how long this was taking to do the measurements and how little progress I was making, I decided to invest in the microphone and ETF. A combination of the WASP method for speaker placement and ETF to finalize the position worked the best for me. When I did the Rives Audio level 2 consultation they found the best placement for two channel listening was in the same relative area I found using the clapping in the WASP method.

My solution to my bass peaks, especially since I am using the 802Ds, has been three band equalizers in two separate Revel Sub 30s placed close to the walls of my room. After my HT/Listening room is finished I'll see what kind of changes are necessary since I will no longer be using the subs the same way anymore because they will only be utilized in the surround system, i.e. they will be attached to the Meridian 861 surround processor instead of between the Ayre K-1xe preamp and the MX-Rs monoblocks in order to take advantage of the Meridian bass management and room correction (the room was built to optimize two channel sound, so the corrective software will be used to make up for this in the surround sound department).

I'm a little worried about the sound difference with the subs removed, but I'm hoping the room changes will have a great effect on things. I do know that the sound difference between having the low frequency EQ on the Revel Sub 30s working with the 802Ds and the sound without the subs EQing was noticeable. The low end was a little less defined because of the bass hump below 80Hz on the 802D as opposed to when the EQ was working and the bass hump was flattened, as if the bass hump was interfering with the clarity and detail of many of the other lower frequencies. If the room changes don't suffice to quell the bass hump issues I'll likely change speakers later on this year, perhaps to the Revel Salon2s if they measure well and sound as good as people are saying so far.

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post #640 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 08:29 AM
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I use a calibrated Behringer ECM8000 phantom powered by a Eurorack UB802 along with Real EQ Wizard software. I started off with 1 hz increment sine wave while writing down RS meter readings, but that became very tedious.
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post #641 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 08:45 AM
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Thanks, appreciate all this valuable info! I still have to invest into an SPL meter.
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post #642 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

Thanks, appreciate all this valuable info! I still have to invest into an SPL meter.

If you can't move your speakers around (if you are stuck with a certain position that they must be in in your listening area), then wasting time on measuring isn't going to make a huge difference except for treating reflection points (to lower reverberation and decay times) and eliminating slap echo in your room (assuming you can hang treatments, and don't have a wife who is limiting the speaker placement and room treatment as well).

If you can move them around (and have a lot of positioning freedom) and plan on using an SPL and some kind of small Hz increments to measure the FR, then I recommend trying the WASP method to get a general sense of where the least amount of room interference will occur. The FR measurements only become useful when you can go to any lengths once you have found the optimal positioning, especially for lowering decay times, reverberation time, fixing slap echo issues, dealing with direct reflections and more oblique reflection issues, etc. I only say so because it is actually much easier to find the optimal positioning by methods like clapping than most people think!

Trying to use an SPL, or even ETF to find the optimal positioning, without any sense of where to start, would take a tremendously wasteful amount of time. Like I mentioned, I tried the 1 Hz increments that I made and burned for myself onto a disc and measured the FR with an SPL meter, it was, as someone else mentioned, quite tedious. The WASP method was infinitely more practical and helped me locate the same optimal position that a professional acoustical engineer located later on with room acoustics programs that were created to find optimal speaker positions. BTW, I'm not sure how well it would work for surround sound though, but it works great for two channel setups.

I recommend over anything else, building a dedicated room with an acoustical engineer if you can afford to do so, or at the least having one re-engineer your existing space to work within whatever limitations you are forced to deal with, i.e. have them figure out exactly where you need to place any treatments in the room, where the speakers will work best within whatever limitations you set, etc. It will save you a lot of time and money if you go with someone like Rives as the consultations are fairly cheap as far as Acoustical Engineering consultations go (building a new room OTOH does get expensive if you basically reconstruct an entire room, as I can attest to)... I think a level 1 (consultation without post-renovation fine tuning and measurements, etc) is around $1000.

Hehehe, sorry if I am rambling on and on, and on, and on, and on.........

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post #643 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I recommend trying the WASP method to get a general sense of where the least amount of room interference will occur.

what is, exaclty, the "WASP" method?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

if you go with someone like Rives as the consultations are fairly cheap as far as Acoustical Engineering consultations go (building a new room OTOH does get expensive if you basically reconstruct an entire room, as I can attest to)... I think a level 1 (consultation without post-renovation fine tuning and measurements, etc) is around $1000.

yeah, I live in a 600 square/foot apartment, so I'm somewhat limited, and probably would'nt be worth spending money on. Although I think I've been able to locate a decent listening position. I started with optimizing 2-channel FRONT's, then I incorporated all other channels (CENTER, REAR SURROUNDS).

Hopefully one day (soon) I'll be able to set-up a dedicated (AV) room, in my own home, and have it acoustically optimized- once I win the lottery (or possibly the NYC Marathon).
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post #644 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

what is, exaclty, the "WASP" method?

WASP Method Link

Other methods including Rives Method for Multi-Channel setup

I found the WASP method to work the best for me... Most other methods I've tried have you sitting in the near field instead of integrating the entire room into the listening experience. I suppose some people like that though.

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post #645 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I found the WASP method to work the best for me...

thanks for this info! this is exactly what I've been looking for. I use, essentially, a variation of this method.
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post #646 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 07:18 PM
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Well after test-driving way too many speakers, we ordered a pair of 703s and the mathcing center channel. These things are heavy, but boy do they sound good. We put away our Atlantic System and fired these babies up. It's like night and day.

Now I'm dreaming of a pair of 705s for rears (we're rearless for now).

My Onkyo 804 is rated at 105 watts - and it actually sounds very nice. Will a separate amp (looing at the Rptel 1095 at 200 watts) be any improvement? Is the 200 watts crazy?

I'm going to put on another CD!!
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post #647 of 18940 Old 02-11-2007, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CouchTater1 View Post

Will a separate amp (looing at the Rptel 1095 at 200 watts) be any improvement? Is the 200 watts crazy?

I'm going to put on another CD!!

1) Yes!

2) No!

3) Amen brother!

Seriously. Congrats on the new rig.

For what it's worth I'd stay away from being concerned about the wattage and look for something in a 'high current' design....which Rotel definately qualifies as. You've put money into some nice speakers and while the Onkyo may be a nice unit (I've owned two myself) it isn't getting the most out of your new fronts. I don't think you'd be dissapointed with the investment.

My 991 puts 200 watts into my 604s3's and I coudn't be happier.

Have Fun!
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post #648 of 18940 Old 02-12-2007, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CouchTater1 View Post

Will a separate amp (looking at the Rotel 1095 at 200 watts) be any improvement?

yes, very much so. It is much more efficient than your Onkyo receiver, and will drive these speakers easier and nicer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CouchTater1 View Post

Is the 200 watts crazy?

The Rotel 1095 is a "killer" amp, should be perfect for the B&W 703's.
http://www.audioholics.com/productre...amplifier1.php
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post #649 of 18940 Old 02-12-2007, 06:36 AM
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I was actually thinking of the Rotal 1080 to drive my 603 and use the Yammy 2700 as a pre/pro. This wont be overkill right? I have bi-amp the 603 to the Yammy 2700 which is running decently.

Anyone here using the Rotel 1080 to drive their B&W?

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post #650 of 18940 Old 02-12-2007, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Darthfunk View Post

I was actually thinking of the Rotal 1080 to drive my 603 and use the Yammy 2700 as a pre/pro. This wont be overkill right? I have bi-amp the 603 to the Yammy 2700 which is running decently.

Anyone here using the Rotel 1080 to drive their B&W?

I use one to drive my 802D's mains. They do a very fine job, although I will admit to a desire to upgrade at some point. B&W speakers do seem to like power, and in the case of the 802D's I think 200 is about the minimum to use. Can't speak for the 603's but I would think it should be just fine.

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post #651 of 18940 Old 02-12-2007, 12:03 PM
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Does anyone have specific measurements about how the 704s would behave with both sets of foam plugs inserted? The little graph in the owners manual would suggest that the response would be flatter at first then fall off steeper. Data around this would be great, or even relevant anecdotal evidence. Thanks.
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post #652 of 18940 Old 02-12-2007, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthfunk View Post

I was actually thinking of the Rotal 1080 to drive my 603 and use the Yammy 2700 as a pre/pro. This wont be overkill right?

excellent combination to drive your fronts. However, if you can afford it I would just go for a full 200W X 5 (RMB-1095), especially if you already have a full 5.1 set-up.
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post #653 of 18940 Old 02-12-2007, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

excellent combination to drive your fronts. However, if you can afford it I would just go for a full 200W X 5 (RMB-1095), especially if you already have a full 5.1 set-up.

Lol i was drooling at this set when i saw it at the shop. The price tag is way off my budget.

I did consider the 5 channel (120wx5) 1075 (exactly the same price as the 1080) too however it seems the 1080 (200w x 2) a better choice.

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post #654 of 18940 Old 02-13-2007, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartinko View Post

I use one to drive my 802D's mains. They do a very fine job, although I will admit to a desire to upgrade at some point. B&W speakers do seem to like power, and in the case of the 802D's I think 200 is about the minimum to use. Can't speak for the 603's but I would think it should be just fine.


I just wanted to share with you...

I have N802's. I have powered them with Rotel, Cinnenova grande 5, nuforce, BAT and have a classe 3200 on order.

You are not doing your speakers justice. In fact, I would say you are only experiencing 60% of what they are capable of at this point. I have been hoping to believe I could power mine with value priced amp and still get the most from my speakers. Last weekend, I demo'd the BAT VK250 from a local shop. All I can say is that my speakers came alive like never before. Gone were the questions of "am I under-powering them?" and "I wonder if they could sound better..."

Don't believe the "all amps are created equal" BS that is the mantra of this board. It isn't true.

I experienced life, fullness, depth, embracement, fullness, comfort, satisfaction, and magic with the BAT amp. I am getting the classe because I need a 3 channel amp, not a 2 ch. I will report back my impressions. I don't doubt they will be close.

Do yourself a favor and start saving...and demo if you have a chance.

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post #655 of 18940 Old 02-13-2007, 09:14 PM
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Building a home theater (7.1 system) in our bonus room (rectangular 15' x 20'). Never bought B&Ws but am impressed what I have heard in the showrooms. One company is recommending the following setup:

B&W 604 front L/R floor-standing speakers
B&W LCR 600 front center speaker
4 B&W DM 601S3 bookshelf speaker system - ceiling mounted
2 B&W ASW600 powered subwoofer (2) - in each corner

Any thoughts on this system?

Also, any thoughts on ceiling mounting the 601S3s?

Any advice from the B&W experts out there would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Gary
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post #656 of 18940 Old 02-14-2007, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Angelo View Post

Building a home theater (7.1 system) in our bonus room (rectangular 15' x 20'). Never bought B&Ws but am impressed what I have heard in the showrooms. One company is recommending the following setup:

B&W 604 front L/R floor-standing speakers
B&W LCR 600 front center speaker
4 B&W DM 601S3 bookshelf speaker system - ceiling mounted
2 B&W ASW600 powered subwoofer (2) - in each corner

Any thoughts on this system?

Also, any thoughts on ceiling mounting the 601S3s?

Any advice from the B&W experts out there would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Gary


Gary,
I have the 604s & LCR 600cc. Love them.
Auditioned the ASW600 sub and for me, I found it lacking. But you have to listen for you.

Instead I went with HSU-STF3. There is an entire thread/forum dealing with subwoofers in the audio section. If you haven't already done so, you might want to check that area out.

As to the 601s, I can't comment. However, I am looking at considering them to replace my surround rears. Hope to audition them soon as well.

Good luck.
..Mark
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post #657 of 18940 Old 02-14-2007, 06:19 AM
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I have some B&W bookshelf speaker stands for my 601's. I know they they can be filled with sand or some other material. I never have done this and I'm wondering how important this is. The stands have spikes and are on carpet. Have others filled their stands and what did you fill them with?
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post #658 of 18940 Old 02-14-2007, 06:19 AM
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Ceiling mount the 601s? I don't think I have ever heard something like that. In-wall or in-ceiling models out of the question?
I love my 601S2s as the rears in my HT. I've owned them nearly eight years, and they still do a great job.
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post #659 of 18940 Old 02-14-2007, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Sm View Post

So what do you own and how is it set-up?

I have a combined home theater/hifi in my livingroom

B&W Speakers:
CDM7-NT front left and right channels
CDMC-NT center channel

Electronics:
Two Embla Adela monoblocks (600W 8Ω / 1200 W 4Ω) powers the two CDM7-NT
One Embla Tinea monoblock(300W 8Ω / 600 W 4Ω) powers the CDMC-NT
Denon AVR3801 surround receiver processes and powers the rear channels
Denon DVD2800 for music CD and DVD playback
HTPC for DVD and HD DVD playback

Other speakers:
Two Mission M72 surround speakers, to be replaced soon I hope by a pair of CDM1-NT's or maybe a pair of Swans M1 or something like that
XTZ 99 W12 subwoofer



I bought the CDM7-NT speakers in 2001 and love them. They sound very good to me and anyone who has heard them in my home. I find that they sound best when they are positioned a fair distance from the back and side walls. I'm using a plug in the rear bass port of each speaker to tune them to my room and the bass from the CDM7's is linear now. The sub introduces a peak at 50 Hz which I will try to tune away with a PEQ. My dream is to own a pair of B&W 802D or 802N speakers. I'm very curious about how the diamond tweeter sounds compared to my current aluminium tweeter.
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post #660 of 18940 Old 02-14-2007, 09:49 AM
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I'm going to have to deal with how to position 601's for surround at some point. I fear my cat would eventually knock them over if I put them on tall stands. I'm thinking I might just have to put up shelves.
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B W , Bowers And Wilkings 685 Speakers , carver cm-1090
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