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post #11791 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SugarmillMan View Post

I can see that a lot of B&W owners use many, many different brands of surround speakers.
Just a quick review of posted photos and personal equipment lists shows not too many 800 series Diamond owners are using B&W branded surrounds or even using 805 Diamonds (as intended by the manufacturer). Obviously that is because the choices are poor. If you have a B&W 800 series speaker, you can use regular 805 Diamonds with their front firing sound, drop down two levels to the DS3 surrounds, look for a pair of used SCMS surrounds on the Web or use another brand of surround.
I wonder if B&W is getting the message they have dropped the ball in this area? Where are the high quality dipole surround speakers?

I have zero interest in dipole surround speakers. I think a lot of people feel the same. With the exception of maybe SACD/ DVD-A, which is a slowly dying breed IMO, high-end expensive surround speakers aren't all that important or desired.

There are a lot of people who love the sound of the 805D2 as their main front speakers used with dual subs. The 805D2 would also work great as a Center speaker and Surround speakers for movies and SACD/ DVD-A.
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post #11792 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 09:07 AM
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I'm glad you enjoy your 805D front speakers. I'm sure they are wonderful direct firing speakers. But I'm not sure that you are completely correct when you state that not many people want high end dipoles.
I have 804Ds for my fronts and am left with the options of using either 805D or CM5s as surrounds if I want to stay with the same brand or else look for someone else's speakers if I want to use dipoles. I am just saying that as a consumer, I want more choices with this brand, not fewer.

B&W 804D2, B&W HTM4 center, LSiFX surrounds, HSU sub, Onkyo TX-NR3010, Parasound Halo A31, NAD t975
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post #11793 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I have zero interest in dipole surround speakers. I think a lot of people feel the same. With the exception of maybe SACD/ DVD-A, which is a slowly dying breed IMO, high-end expensive surround speakers aren't all that important or desired.
There are a lot of people who love the sound of the 805D2 as their main front speakers used with dual subs. The 805D2 would also work great as a Center speaker and Surround speakers for movies and SACD/ DVD-A.
The evidence seems to be the DS8S. If there had been demand for it, B&W would still be making it.
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post #11794 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I have the Focal, Dynaudio, ATC, and Philharmonic in my living room, while the B&W, KEF, Revel, Linkwitz, and TAD are in my HT room, which is LOCKED when I don't want any house guess and in-laws nosing around. biggrin.gif
The 800/802 have at least the +/-3dB frequency response, while the Wilson are more like +/-6dB, which falls out of my selection criteria. biggrin.gif
http://www.hometheater.com/content/bampw-802-diamond-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
"The 802 Diamond’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +2.82/–2.79 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz."
Here is the Sasha. At 6kHz, it is down a whole -6dB:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-sasha-wp-loudspeaker-measurements
Here is the MAXX3. Again at 6kHz, it is down -6dB:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-maxx-series-3-loudspeaker-measurements
Here is the Sophia3. At around 2.8kHz, it is down almost -6dB:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-sophia-series-3-loudspeaker-measurements
The Sonus Cremona is more like +/-4dB and has cabinet resonance issues:
"There is a suspicious-looking wrinkle in the impedance traces around 125Hz. Investigating the vibrational behavior of the cabinet panels with an accelerometer, I did find a resonant mode in that region on the front and rear panels, along with others at 154 and 387Hz (fig.2). These may well be associated with the slight warmth I noted in my auditioning."
http://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-cremona-elipsa-loudspeaker-measurements
I know measurements aren't everything, but that is crossing the line just a little bit for me, especially for "high-end" speakers costing that much money. biggrin.gif
I considered buying the Focal Diablo Utopia III, but didn't want to spend that kind of money on speakers with measurements close to +/-4dB (Focal Maestro Utopia III).
http://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-maestro-utopia-iii-loudspeaker-measurements
Again, measurements aren't everything, but they are included in my criteria. biggrin.gif

Ah ok, I see how you go about picking the speakers you have. Very interesting, thanks.

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post #11795 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Okay, now that's going beyond PASSION, right into the realm of CRAZY. biggrin.gif

Nah, crazy would be 9 800 Diamonds tongue.gif

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post #11796 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarmillMan View Post

I can see that a lot of B&W owners use many, many different brands of surround speakers.
Just a quick review of posted photos and personal equipment lists shows not too many 800 series Diamond owners are using B&W branded surrounds or even using 805 Diamonds (as intended by the manufacturer). Obviously that is because the choices are poor. If you have a B&W 800 series speaker, you can use regular 805 Diamonds with their front firing sound, drop down two levels to the DS3 surrounds, look for a pair of used SCMS surrounds on the Web or use another brand of surround.
I wonder if B&W is getting the message they have dropped the ball in this area? Where are the high quality dipole surround speakers?

The consumer would have obviously been better served if they had continued to show an interest or real commitment in home theater but with the D2 series they clearly chose to focus on stereo listening. I personally believe the only reason we have the HTM4, HTM2 and DB1 was to avoid a major backlash by the public and dealers for moving out of the home theater market entirely. Wilson does an absolutely fabulous job in this department offering center speakers and subwoofers for their entire range i.e. the absolutely massive Thor's Hammer sub and Polaris center for going with their Alexandria and Maxx speakers and the Watch Dog and Mezzo for their Sasha's and Sophia's. They do offer a surround speaker as well. It would have been wonderful if B&W had of kept the HTM1D, SCMS and DS8S but updated all three to the new Diamond specs, that would have allowed for a lot more flexibility with options in customers systems.

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post #11797 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Nothing wrong with the B&W + Denon combo. I pair my 802 w/ the Denon AVP+ AT3005 amp.
Nothing wrong with pairing the B&W w/ Anthem per-pro + amp, or Classe, or Rotel, etc, either.
I think the Denon amp is overpriced, though. For $7500, there are a lot of great options. I don't like having to bridge an amp in order to get 300wpc. IMO, a $7500 amp should be at least 300wpc not bridged.
But nothing wrong with your thought on the combo either. Just a different opinion. biggrin.gif

Well got the avp and poa in 2008 not selling them smile.gif I agree the POA is nice but so are many other amps. Most (including me) would consider the POA a 5 channel balanced 300watt/channel amp not a 10 channel unbalanced.

But the more i hear the more i feel 802diamonds might be a good idea time to see how they perform for me and see what the next step is, thanks for the feedback.

Daniel.

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post #11798 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Well got the avp and poa in 2008 not selling them smile.gif I agree the POA is nice but so are many other amps. Most (including me) would consider the POA a 5 channel balanced 300watt/channel amp not a 10 channel unbalanced.
But the more i hear the more i feel 802diamonds might be a good idea time to see how they perform for me and see what the next step is, thanks for the feedback.
Daniel.

The AVP + POA + 802D2 combo would be killer awesome. My only comment regarding the POA is the steep price tag, not the performance. If I own the POA, I would not sell it either. biggrin.gif

Really awesome setup!

I would be proud to own the POA. biggrin.gif
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post #11799 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I have no doubt that speaker measurements introduce bias. The Salon2 gets 5 stars because it has better measurements. The FR graph is a lot smoother on the Salon2.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-ultima2-salon2-speaker-system-page-2
I'm just happy to see the 802D2 in the +/-2.8dB range, and not +/-4dB or +/-5dB or +/-6dB. biggrin.gif
The Salon2’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +0.99/–2.25 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.
The 802 Diamond’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +2.82/–2.79 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz.

Hi AcuDefTechGuy I see you are Labs Measures guy so I wondering if you could teach me with something what I see in hometheater magazine:

I have a promonitor set up in my bedroom and I could see that its have according to hometheater website " The ProMonitor 600's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and ±15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +3.66/–2.20 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz" and they sound good but never in the league of my 804D that according HT magazin have "The 804 Diamond’s listening-window response measures +4.54/–4.82 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. "
so The promonitor is a better speaker than the 804D?

according to my ears they never will do the performance os the 804D. I'm wrong?

so measures will not always have the reason?

Leo,
Saludos
My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Channel Denon AVR 3310(center amp), Rotel RB1582 Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD
Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Yamaha AVR...
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post #11800 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 07:38 PM
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I used to have an POA A1HD driving my 802d, htm2d ( all bridged ) and the remaining 4 channels driving my SCMS and 805 sigs. And lovely sounding it was too.

I loved that amp. The only reason I sold it was because it ran too hot for my ht room. Silly hot.

I have had big beast Rotel amps, 1000w Bel canto mono blocks ( which at £2600 a channel make the denon seem cheap ) and the denon beat them all hands down. The bel cantos were nice but not enough guts behind their class d interior.

But have to say nothing gets these 802d and htm2d singing better than the AB cinema amp 3500se thati have powering them now. Wth it's massively oversized torroid and 500w per channel into 8 ohm the punch and slam these speakers deliver now is just astonishing. Every time I get book or Eli out or open range it's never stops amazing me. I am sure one day I'm going to have the police knocking on the door looking for the shoot out as it sounds and feels so realistic.

Mind you a bit of that goes down to the great room treatments I've had installed by rpg and the Ada crm4 processor.
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post #11801 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leo2498 View Post

Hi AcuDefTechGuy I see you are Labs Measures guy so I wondering if you could teach me with something what I see in hometheater magazine:
I have a promonitor set up in my bedroom and I could see that its have according to hometheater website " The ProMonitor 600's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and ±15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +3.66/–2.20 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz" and they sound good but never in the league of my 804D that according HT magazin have "The 804 Diamond’s listening-window response measures +4.54/–4.82 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. "
so The promonitor is a better speaker than the 804D?
according to my ears they never will do the performance os the 804D. I'm wrong?
so measures will not always have the reason?

Well, I have some experience, but I'm far from being an expert. biggrin.gif

First, what we see from HTM is just one snapshot of the overall picture - basically the on-axis frequency response. The PM600 may measure a little better than the 804D on-axis, but probably not really that much better. biggrin.gif

Then there's the horizontal and vertical off-axis FR, cabinet resonance, distortion, impedance, among other measurements (see Stereophile and Soundstage NRC).

According to Harman International research (Toole/ Olive), the 2 most important measurements are the on-axis and horizontal off-axis 45-60 degrees. The HTM measurement shows us only the on-axis since 15 degrees doesn't really count as "off-axis". biggrin.gif

So everyone has a different opinion as to what matters most - measurements vs subjective sound quality. To me, the most important thing is how the speakers sound. Measurements are important, but only up to a certain point. The final test is how the speakers actually sound to you.
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post #11802 of 18824 Old 10-29-2012, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

But have to say nothing gets these 802d and htm2d singing better than the AB cinema amp 3500se thati have powering them now. Wth it's massively oversized torroid and 500w per channel into 8 ohm the punch and slam these speakers deliver now is just astonishing. Every time I get book or Eli out or open range it's never stops amazing me. I am sure one day I'm going to have the police knocking on the door looking for the shoot out as it sounds and feels so realistic.
Mind you a bit of that goes down to the great room treatments I've had installed by rpg and the Ada crm4 processor.

Yes I know waht you mean my 800Diamond II are powered by the Classé CA-M600 and they rock no worries there biggrin.gif
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post #11803 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I used to have an POA A1HD driving my 802d, htm2d ( all bridged ) and the remaining 4 channels driving my SCMS and 805 sigs. And lovely sounding it was too.
I loved that amp. The only reason I sold it was because it ran too hot for my ht room. Silly hot.
I have had big beast Rotel amps, 1000w Bel canto mono blocks ( which at £2600 a channel make the denon seem cheap ) and the denon beat them all hands down. The bel cantos were nice but not enough guts behind their class d interior.
But have to say nothing gets these 802d and htm2d singing better than the AB cinema amp 3500se thati have powering them now. Wth it's massively oversized torroid and 500w per channel into 8 ohm the punch and slam these speakers deliver now is just astonishing. Every time I get book or Eli out or open range it's never stops amazing me. I am sure one day I'm going to have the police knocking on the door looking for the shoot out as it sounds and feels so realistic.
Mind you a bit of that goes down to the great room treatments I've had installed by rpg and the Ada crm4 processor.

Good to see that the POA will do fine, lets close that topic before i will be kicked out of this thread for being off topic smile.gif, But thanks for the feedback to all always nice to get feedback not based on false claims and misplaced pride of ownership but on real feedback from people who owned things themselves.

Now just to be sure. i see wse talk about the 802diamond II does that mean that there are already 2 versions ? I figured it was the 802d, 802di and now 802diamond ? And how can i see demo sets are really using the last model ? My guess is because of the magnetic covers right?

Daniel.

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post #11804 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Good to see that the POA will do fine, lets close that topic before i will be kicked out of this thread for being off topic smile.gif, But thanks for the feedback to all always nice to get feedback not based on false claims and misplaced pride of ownership but on real feedback from people who owned things themselves.
Now just to be sure. i see wse talk about the 802diamond II does that mean that there are already 2 versions ? I figured it was the 802d, 802di and now 802diamond ? And how can i see demo sets are really using the last model ? My guess is because of the magnetic covers right?
Daniel.

wse has 800 Diamonds for his mains and 802D's for his center and surrounds. There has been two iterations of the diamond tweeter 800 series speakers thus far, the first were designated by a 'D' after the speaker name and actually on the speaker and on the boxes (i.e wse's 802D's) whereas with the 2nd (current) generation the 'D' was removed from the name and as a result you will see people referring to the current iteration as Di, D2 or Diamond, all are referring to the same series. Unfortunately some people mistakenly mix up the names, no fault of their own as I blame that on B&W's naming choice smile.gif making it a bit confusing as to which generation they are referring to so if in doubt do what I do and just ask for clarification.

The magnetic covers were added with the current generation of the 800 series, the original 'D' series, previous generation did not have those. The actual speakers on the current generation have added a silver ring on the mid and bass drivers and the ring for the tweeter is on the magnetic cover. The company name on the grills and speakers now says Bowers & Wilkins wheras the previous generation said B&W.

Hope that helps.

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post #11805 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 05:08 AM
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Wow! All this time I belived I had 804D's (because that is what the salesman said I had), however, I really have 804 Diamonds. All factors in your description matched! Thank you.biggrin.gif

B&W 804D2, B&W HTM4 center, LSiFX surrounds, HSU sub, Onkyo TX-NR3010, Parasound Halo A31, NAD t975
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post #11806 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SugarmillMan View Post

Wow! All this time I belived I had 804D's (because that is what the salesman said I had), however, I really have 804 Diamonds. All factors in your description matched! Thank you.biggrin.gif

Oh, my bad, I probably should have said a bit more about the previous line in comparison to the current line. In the previous 800 series line the 805 and 804 did not have the diamond tweeter so whenever someone refers to the 805 or 804 having a diamond tweeter that is the current series. In the previous line there were two 803 speakers, one with the diamond tweeter and one with the aluminum, the HTM4 did not have the diamond tweeter and I believe there were two variations of the HTM2 (if not two there was a HTM2 and a HTM3), one with the diamond tweeter and one without. So in the previous generation the 800, 801, 802, one of the 803's, the HTM1 and if more than one model of HTM2, one of those all had the diamond tweeters. Also neither of the two surround speaker models had the diamond tweeter.

So in the end, yes you still have the latest and greatest 804 biggrin.gif

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post #11807 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 07:10 AM
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I think a lot of AVS readers were under the impression that there were two versions of the Diamond model (as was I). Some have referred to this as 804Di or 804D-2. All of these shorthand notations have muddied the waters so I'm glad to read your explanation. Thanks.

B&W 804D2, B&W HTM4 center, LSiFX surrounds, HSU sub, Onkyo TX-NR3010, Parasound Halo A31, NAD t975
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post #11808 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 08:34 AM
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I think we should list them as 800D1, 800D2, 802D1, 802D2, 803D1, 803D2, ect.

They are all diamond speakers, so saying "Dia" or "Di" or "Diamond" is still confusing.

There are 2 generations of Diamond speakers - D1 (1st Gen) and D2 (2nd Gen).

So 804D1, 804D2, 805D1, 805D2.....
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post #11809 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 08:56 AM
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I'm all d1 by the way. I have been offered the crossovers and tweeters top upgrade the d1 to d2. Just not sure it's really worth it. As it stands I can not see how one can already improve on what I call perfection. Lol.
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post #11810 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

The magnetic covers were added with the current generation of the 800 series, the original 'D' series, previous generation did not have those. .

Correct they had holes!
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

The actual speakers on the current generation have added a silver ring on the mid and bass drivers and the ring for the tweeter is on the magnetic cover. The company name on the grills and speakers now says Bowers & Wilkins wheras the previous generation said B&W. Hope that helps.

Yes in addition only the second generation has PIano Black so if you are listening to Piano Black Bower & Wilkins then they are the latest generation unless the third comes out soon smile.gif
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post #11811 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I'm all d1 by the way. I have been offered the crossovers and tweeters top upgrade the d1 to d2. Just not sure it's really worth it. As it stands I can not see how one can already improve on what I call perfection. Lol.

That's right they are very good, but all I can say is the "800Diamond silver ring" really sound better than the 802D
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post #11812 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I think we should list them as 800D1, 800D2, 802D1, 802D2, 803D1, 803D2, ect.
They are all diamond speakers, so saying "Dia" or "Di" or "Diamond" is still confusing.
There are 2 generations of Diamond speakers - D1 (1st Gen) and D2 (2nd Gen).
So 804D1, 804D2, 805D1, 805D2.....

How can you tell an 804 Diamond D1 from an 804 Diamond D2 generation?

B&W 804D2, B&W HTM4 center, LSiFX surrounds, HSU sub, Onkyo TX-NR3010, Parasound Halo A31, NAD t975
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post #11813 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:36 AM
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Yes in addition only the second generation has PIano Black so if you are listening to Piano Black Bower & Wilkins then they are the latest generation unless the third comes out soon smile.gif

Good lord don't say that, I haven't got all my speakers yet biggrin.gif I have been burned twice by Paradigm all ready with their subs being discontinued so I really want to get all of my diamonds and have then be new and from the same generation before B&W introduce the next evolution.

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post #11814 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SugarmillMan View Post

How can you tell an 804 Diamond D1 from an 804 Diamond D2 generation?

There is no multiple generations of 804 Diamonds, the previous generations all had aluminum tweeters and like wse pointed out the piano black finish is new to the current generation as well. The diamond tweeter was introduced with the current iteration of the 804 model so any mention of a 804 with a diamond tweeter can only be the current generation...so far...like wse said when B&W upgrade the line again at that point you will need to start referring to the diamond generation of the 804 as would be the case for the 805 and HTM4 basically what we have to do now with the 800's, 802's, 803's and HTM2's.

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post #11815 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

Good lord don't say that, I haven't got all my speakers yet biggrin.gif I have been burned twice by Paradigm all ready with their subs being discontinued so I really want to get all of my diamonds and have then be new and from the same generation before B&W introduce the next evolution.

I hear you but somehow I have a feeling it might happen in 2013 at CES hope not as I still want to get an 800Diamond for center channel
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post #11816 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I think we should list them as 800D1, 800D2, 802D1, 802D2, 803D1, 803D2, ect.
They are all diamond speakers, so saying "Dia" or "Di" or "Diamond" is still confusing.
There are 2 generations of Diamond speakers - D1 (1st Gen) and D2 (2nd Gen).
So 804D1, 804D2, 805D1, 805D2.....

Remember, no such thing as a D1 and D2 804, 805 and HTM4 becuase those speakers did not get fitted with diamond tweeters until this generation of the 800 series. So we only have D1 or if you prefer to keep in sync with the 800's, 802's, etc. start them off as D2 and skip D1.

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post #11817 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 09:50 AM
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How about

D for first generation

and

Di for second generation
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post #11818 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 10:06 AM
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As the owner of 700 & 600 series, I hate all of you who are a bit confused over which generation of 800 you own.

Tell you what, just send them all to me and I'll sort and tag them so there's no confusion in the future. biggrin.gif
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post #11819 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 10:14 AM
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I hear you but somehow I have a feeling it might happen in 2013 at CES hope not as I still want to get an 800Diamond for center channel

The only thing diamond related I want from B&W at this years CES is the re-introduction of the HTM1D biggrin.gif and possibly the addition of diamonds to there in ceiling/in wall CI 800 speakers so that people who want to add heights or have in wall wides can do so and get the diamond tweeters to match their main speakers.

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post #11820 of 18824 Old 10-30-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarmillMan View Post

How can you tell an 804 Diamond D1 from an 804 Diamond D2 generation?

There are not such thing to 804D1 y 804D2, all 804D are second generation of the tweeter, you can see this in this web site of B&W:

http://www.bwgroupsupport.com/manuals/bw

only have parts for 804D2 , if you are looking for parts of 802 they have 802D or 802D2 part
http://www.bwgroupsupport.com/parts/price-avail

Leo,
Saludos
My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Channel Denon AVR 3310(center amp), Rotel RB1582 Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD
Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Yamaha AVR...
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