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post #12241 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

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Originally Posted by raycie View Post

Getting a huge bug to get a pair of CM1s to start off my system. System would be an all-in-one, music and movies. Starting off with a 2.1 then possibly expanding in the future. Sub will be something in the REL line. I need the ability to have AM/FM radio, and possibly hook up all my components (DVD, Wii, AppleTV) so they can be played from the speakers.
Looking at integrated amps, HT amps, etc. With an integrated, I would need a tuner and other components. With a HT amp/receiver, they would be an all-in-one.
Amp/Receiver options:
NAD T748 (average $700)
Yamaha HTR-4065 ($270 Costco)
Marantz (need to stay in the $500-700 range preferably)
NAD integrated (but would need separate components to complete. Unsure how I would integrate DVD/Wii, AppleTV)
I am by no means an audiophile, but I could hear and distinguish the difference between the CM1 and the 600-series. Amps can be upgraded in the future, but did want to spend good hard earned $$ on quality speakers (hence the CM1s). Would love to spend no more than $2,500 to start. CM1=$1,000 / REL = $600-800 / Speaker Stands = $200 / Amp = $500-$700..
Question:
1. If I go the cheap and easy (good enough for now) Yamaha from Costco is that enough power for the CM1s even in 2.1 mode?
2. NAD HT or integrated
3. Marantz, Denon, Onyko - Which one bang for the buck???
THANKS!!!..

The best bang for the buck is the Sony STR-DN1030. It can be had for $450. For those who will scoff, try it first.


I wouldn't touch SONY anything for audio. The choice should between Onkyo and Denon. Try to find independent reviews with test bench measurements. Get one that measured best.
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post #12242 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

is the smoothness of the b&w's considered warm? Is this something that a lot of speaker manufacturers do to give enjoyment to the listener? Are there any other attributes that speaker companies can do to make them more enjoyable instead of being as true to the source as possible.
and yeah, i was just curious if you could think of any in particular that would possibly stand out to me. Maybe a PM?, highs never really bother me except for some energies that i heard that were super bland and reminded me of brushed cheap metalic sound. I do enjoy some sparkly highs though and preferably a good midbass punch when needed that can produce instruments with bass nature accurately. I can always fill the sub bass in with a sub. As for the midrange, i'm thinking neutral with a tad warmth or energy.
Even a cm9 type sound with more midbass punch would make me happy

Problems with midbass are usually related to the room rather than speakers (at lest in price range which we talk here about). Change of placement, room treatment or DSP correction make a big difference. I use DSP between pre-amp and power amp for music with large amount of bass. It sounds better that way even though I loose a little bit of high transparency. For music with little bass content I switch to bypass mode and listen sound as-is. My speakers are 802D, but room creates most of problems with peaks and nulls in bass region.
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post #12243 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Just had my 804Ds set up...
I wonder how long do Diamond owners run in their speakers, and how much toe in do you do?
Also, I currently have them about 50 cm from the rear wall, but there is not as much bass as my old 805s. How long before the real sound kicks in?
Cheers.

The REAL sound kicks in the moment you play music through your speakers. I've seen speaker measurements of new vs "broken-in-for-months" speakers, and they looked almost identical (taking into consideration variance with room, placement, procedure, etc). And although some physical changes do occur over time like everything in life, the net result in SQ is insignificant.

The big changes in SQ occurs with your AVR setup. Some of us hate RC/EQ/THX/DSP, etc, and only listen in Direct modes. Some prefer RC/EQ/DSP/THX, etc.

Also speaker placements and room acoustics may play a role, especially if your room is very reflective (no carpets, rugs, drapes, curtains, sofas, books, etc).

I toe my speakers in 30-45 degrees. Some speakers will benefit, some will not. Try it out.

Having speakers near walls, instead of 2 - 3 feet out, may increase bass response, but may also muddy the sound.
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post #12244 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

I wouldn't touch SONY anything for audio. The choice should between Onkyo and Denon. Try to find independent reviews with test bench measurements. Get one that measured best.

In direct modes (bypass RC/EQ/DSP), Sony AVR will bench test/measure (THD, FR, SNR, Crosstalk) and sound like anything else in its class more or less. But with RC/DSP/EQ on, probably not. biggrin.gif
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post #12245 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

I wouldn't touch SONY anything for audio. The choice should between Onkyo and Denon. Try to find independent reviews with test bench measurements. Get one that measured best.

TEST RESULTS:
ONKYO TXNR414 $500 http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr414-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
ONKYO TXNR609 $599 http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr609-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
DENON 1913 $58 0 http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
PIONEER VSX52 $900 http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-vsx-52-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
PIONEER VSX1021 $550 http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1021-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
SONY STRDN1030 $450 http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-report-sony-str-dn1030-av-receiver?page=0,3
MARANTZ SR6006 $1,200 http://www.hometheater.com/content/marantz-sr6006-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Sony has highest power and costs less. My most recent receivers have been Denon 4310 and 4311, Yamaha A300.

I purchased the Sony 1030 a week ago to replace a Denon 2308 in one system. I first installed it in my main system. I like it so much that I will replace the 2308 and put a Sony 5700 ES in my main system.

I assume that you commented from opinion without any experience. Power is really so close that that is not likely an issue with any of these. I prefer the sound of the Sony, others will disagree.
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post #12246 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

In direct modes (bypass RC/EQ/DSP), Sony AVR will bench test/measure (THD, FR, SNR, Crosstalk) and sound like anything else in its class more or less. But with RC/DSP/EQ on, probably not. biggrin.gif

The sound is subjective. However the 1030 is as good as the $2000 AVR's that I have used.
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post #12247 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

is lush a word for describing smooth mids?

You'll see all kinds of words used. People describe speakers and amps as if these components were fine wines and foods. eek.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #12248 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 07:51 AM
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The sound is subjective. However the 1030 is as good as the $2000 AVR's that I have used.

I agree. A lot of people are brand loyal. A lot of people hate Sony. I see it as just another amp and preamp. In direct modes, I have no doubt they all sound the same. A few watts here and there. A few SNR, XTalk, THD point differences. All relatively insignificant in terms of actual SQ.

A lot of audiophiles couldn't even tell a significant difference between a cheap $300 Pioneer AVR and $20,000 Boulder monoblocks. I'm no better or higher than those audiophiles or anyone else. biggrin.gif

Some people think they can tell a significant difference, but it's not a DBT, so all kinds of bias is involved. Sure. $20K amp will sound better than a $500 amp. Naturally. Of course. One person's word against another. No proofs of any kind. Just words in the wind. Hearsay. biggrin.gif

Nothing wrong with wanting certain brands and certain price points. wink.gif
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post #12249 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 08:56 AM
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So how do you guys feel about BD/CD players? If you use a "high end" BD/CD player how do you connect it to your pre/amp/receiver? HDMI/Coax?

I currently use my PS3 Slim for streaming, BD, CD etc. PS3 is hooked up via HDMI to my pre/amp. Any suggestions how to improve the “fidelity”?

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post #12250 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

So how do you guys feel about BD/CD players? If you use a "high end" BD/CD player how do you connect it to your pre/amp/receiver? HDMI/Coax?
I currently use my PS3 Slim for streaming, BD, CD etc. PS3 is hooked up via HDMI to my pre/amp. Any suggestions how to improve the “fidelity”?

I have 2 Denon BD/universal players ($2K each) that I don't even use because I stream lossless music files on my Denon AVP. I do have SACD & DVDA, but I hardly ever listen to them. biggrin.gif

But back then, I used HDMI for connection. I've also tried coaxial/RCA analog connections. Also tried the Denon-Link (Ethernet) connection. Ended up with HDMI because SQ was all the same. Then ripped all my CDs to Lossless (WMA Lossless) and streamed to my Denon AVP-A1 pre-pro. Most guys probably stream FLAC or WAV.
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post #12251 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

The REAL sound kicks in the moment you play music through your speakers. I've seen speaker measurements of new vs "broken-in-for-months" speakers, and they looked almost identical (taking into consideration variance with room, placement, procedure, etc). And although some physical changes do occur over time like everything in life, the net result in SQ is insignificant.
The big changes in SQ occurs with your AVR setup. Some of us hate RC/EQ/THX/DSP, etc, and only listen in Direct modes. Some prefer RC/EQ/DSP/THX, etc.
Also speaker placements and room acoustics may play a role, especially if your room is very reflective (no carpets, rugs, drapes, curtains, sofas, books, etc).
I toe my speakers in 30-45 degrees. Some speakers will benefit, some will not. Try it out.
Having speakers near walls, instead of 2 - 3 feet out, may increase bass response, but may also muddy the sound.

Thanks for the info, but it's odd that my 805s have more bass than the new 804D!

Got my mates to use it whilst I am away, so I hope it gets better when I am back after the weekend...

I am using them for HT and music, so I have them toed in about 25-30 degrees too.

Interestingly, after swopping out the 4311 for the 4520 and re-doing the Audyssey XT 32, the bass from the HTM4s is now meaty enough, and I might be able to postpone swopping that for a HTM2D, which costs a whole lot more.. smile.gif
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post #12252 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

in a dedicated room that was fully accoustic paneled up and there was a lot of space as there was only two other sets of speakers in the room that were on different walls. To me, it was an ideal setup.
I liked the smoothness, don't get me wrong but there is some instruments just sounded fake and artificial because of it.
I believe that the ports were open also

As others have stated, just because the room was treated doesn't mean the tone controls or room correction was setup correctly (a lot of people like bass heavy and bright and play with the tone controls accordingly). As far as fake sounding, I haven't ran into that at either the AV store in our home. I will say that the CM9's are detailed to the point I notice things I didn't before in a recording. The biggest one was I didn't realize that the lead singer of Cake used a voice box on some songs (I'm talking songs where it isn't used to obvious effect). So it could be that you are noticing things that may actually be synthesized or added in. I certainly had listened to the Cake songs I bring up a lot and had never noticed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bthrb4u 
at best buy they were set up bi-amped and just 2.0 setup
also, i felt the same way about the mids all three times i heard them.

Bi-amping them wouldn't really make any difference unless they were played to a level that a single amp couldn't handle. Again, in my experience midrange performance has been a strong point. Not a liability. It sounds like maybe these aren't the speakers for you, but if you're still interested I would have them run Audyssey or whatever room correction the processor has and try inserting the plugs to see what effect that has on the sound. Like I said in my particular room the plugs do effect the midrange. Fully plugged gives it the strongest midrange performance, fully open the weakest (I like the partial plug the best). Or give up all together and go on to other speakers. I wonder if you would like Paradigm Studio's. I found them slightly brighter and a bit harsher, but they were very good.

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post #12253 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I have 2 Denon BD/universal players ($2K each) that I don't even use because I stream lossless music files on my Denon AVP. I do have SACD & DVDA, but I hardly ever listen to them. biggrin.gif
But back then, I used HDMI for connection. I've also tried coaxial/RCA analog connections. Also tried the Denon-Link (Ethernet) connection. Ended up with HDMI because SQ was all the same. Then ripped all my CDs to Lossless (WMA Lossless) and streamed to my Denon AVP-A1 pre-pro. Most guys probably stream FLAC or WAV.

How about for blu ray movies?

Streaming the music makes sense. I mostly stream it via the PS3 but I realize that is silly considering the Onkyo can do it w/o introducing an intermediary...

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post #12254 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Thanks for the info, but it's odd that my 805s have more bass than the new 804D!
Got my mates to use it whilst I am away, so I hope it gets better when I am back after the weekend...
I am using them for HT and music, so I have them toed in about 25-30 degrees too.
Interestingly, after swopping out the 4311 for the 4520 and re-doing the Audyssey XT 32, the bass from the HTM4s is now meaty enough, and I might be able to postpone swopping that for a HTM2D, which costs a whole lot more.. smile.gif

When I first heard the 805D vs. the 804D, I felt the same way - I thought the 805D has more bass than the 804D, not only that, but better bass. However, that is definitely not the case. eek.gif It's more a function of the way the two speakers make music. If you look at the Kevlar drivers it is easy to see. You need to spend a little more time with both to really appreciate the differences and how the 804D is superior. (I am not knocking the 805, just saying it's different). biggrin.gif

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post #12255 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 02:44 PM
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I have not seen the curves but perhaps the 805 has a bit of a mid bass bump that many two ways use to help make the bass sound stronger.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #12256 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

How about for blu ray movies?
Streaming the music makes sense. I mostly stream it via the PS3 but I realize that is silly considering the Onkyo can do it w/o introducing an intermediary...

I use my Panasonic BD or HTPC for BD.
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post #12257 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 03:18 PM
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I won't use room correction for 2.0 Besides the audio going into the receiver was analog via my dac. Can you do room correction without the receiver taking it back to digital and then analog again? That would defeat the purpose of having a good DAC anyways i would think. I didn't know the midwoofer of the cm9's where exposed to the bass woofers allowing plugs to change them.

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post #12258 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 08:36 PM
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How did I do??

Put in the order today.

B&W CM1
Matantz 5007
REL T5 SUB
B&W Speaker stands (the cheaper ones for now)
Audioquest Sub-1
Audioquest FX14 speaker wire

$2,600+ change...

Decent starter system??

Future adds will be:

-Center (possibly B&W but those things are HUGE)
-New fronts and move CM1 to surround
-Possible M-1 for rears.

Some guy also has a B&W CDM-CNT on craigslist for about $350. Deal or not???
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post #12259 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by raycie View Post

How did I do??
Put in the order today.
B&W CM1
Matantz 5007
REL T5 SUB
B&W Speaker stands (the cheaper ones for now)
Audioquest Sub-1
Audioquest FX14 speaker wire
$2,600+ change...
Decent starter system??
Future adds will be:
-Center (possibly B&W but those things are HUGE)
-New fronts and move CM1 to surround
-Possible M-1 for rears.
Some guy also has a B&W CDM-CNT on craigslist for about $350. Deal or not???

1) I would not spend money on Audioquest cables since they don't do anything better than Blue Jeans Cable or a lot of other much less expensive cables. That is unless these cables were used at low price. biggrin.gif

2) I would buy subs from Funk Audio, SVS, HSU, Rythmik.
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post #12260 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 09:40 PM
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1) I would not spend money on Audioquest cables since they don't do anything better than Blue Jeans Cable or a lot of other much less expensive cables. That is unless these cables were used at low price. biggrin.gif
2) I would buy subs from Funk Audio, SVS, HSU, Rythmik.

All new.. basically close to free wires...

B&W = $1,000
Stands = $150
Sub = $700
Amp = $700

Wires and tax = $100
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post #12261 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 10:26 PM
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Raycie, i did not see if you already had previous equipment but if you don't then you are missing out on a source unless you are going to rely on the marantz to decode internet radio or airplay. Even a cheap dac will enhance your experience.

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post #12262 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 10:27 PM
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You'll never know how good a speaker is until you give it something good to sing

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post #12263 of 18902 Old 12-07-2012, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

Raycie, i did not see if you already had previous equipment but if you don't then you are missing out on a source unless you are going to rely on the marantz to decode internet radio or airplay. Even a cheap dac will enhance your experience.

As far as previous equipment nada... Replacing a sony HT (In a box) type. My father dabbled into the who home stereo back in the day. Some KLH model 6 or 60 or some other great reviewed speakers (as he says), played vinyl, and even played a bunch of stuff from a reel-to-reel that he still has.

As far as a "cheap dac", what is there that would complement what I am getting shipped in?? If not, yes, I was going just use the marantz to decode whatever I gave it..
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post #12264 of 18902 Old 12-08-2012, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by akhter View Post

if i were you i wouldn't switch from 804S to N802. because
1) you have a sub so the bass of the N802 is less important to you. you will still have to use the sub but probably crossed over a bit lower.
2) the S tweeter is newer and is possibly marginally better.
3) the midrange of the n802 will be better due to the marlan head
4) the n802 possibly has better crossovers so there could be slight gains there
so you you get better midrange and the rest of the gains are debateable.
if you didn't have either and were chooseing between the two i would say get the N802 but if you have 804S then you will go through a lot of hassle for questionable gain.
i would say save up for used 802D. there are out there. good news is your 804S will hold value well and won't go down in much further in value between now and a 1-2 years from now...may be a couple of hundred...

thank you for the imput. i wish i could just hear these side by side in my system.
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post #12265 of 18902 Old 12-08-2012, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I agree. A lot of people are brand loyal. A lot of people hate Sony. I see it as just another amp and preamp. In direct modes, I have no doubt they all sound the same. A few watts here and there. A few SNR, XTalk, THD point differences. All relatively insignificant in terms of actual SQ.
A lot of audiophiles couldn't even tell a significant difference between a cheap $300 Pioneer AVR and $20,000 Boulder monoblocks. I'm no better or higher than those audiophiles or anyone else. biggrin.gif
Some people think they can tell a significant difference, but it's not a DBT, so all kinds of bias is involved. Sure. $20K amp will sound better than a $500 amp. Naturally. Of course. One person's word against another. No proofs of any kind. Just words in the wind. Hearsay. biggrin.gif
Nothing wrong with wanting certain brands and certain price points. wink.gif

Although I tend to agree with a good portion of your post, I strongly disagree with the statement, "I have no doubt they all sound the same". Your assumption that all AVR's or Pre/Pro's is totally false. Every AVR has somewhat of a sonic signature. I do not believe that it is even possible for them to all sound the same, unless they all used the same components, dsp chips, dacs, adc, output stages, opamps, ect...There is a reason that they do not do that. Even the manufactures' designers admit that they all have a different "sonic signature".

Now with all of that being said, I strongly believe that there is a small amount of difference between each AVR in that the differences are not dramatic. I honestly do not believe that we are to the point yet, in AVR manufacturing, where they are producing 100% accurate, true to source sound quality in the mid-level AVR market, ie $500 to $1,200 dollar range.
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post #12266 of 18902 Old 12-08-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Although I tend to agree with a good portion of your post, I strongly disagree with the statement, "I have no doubt they all sound the same". Your assumption that all AVR's or Pre/Pro's is totally false. Every AVR has somewhat of a sonic signature. I do not believe that it is even possible for them to all sound the same, unless they all used the same components, dsp chips, dacs, adc, output stages, opamps, ect...There is a reason that they do not do that. Even the manufactures' designers admit that they all have a different "sonic signature".
Now with all of that being said, I strongly believe that there is a small amount of difference between each AVR in that the differences are not dramatic. I honestly do not believe that we are to the point yet, in AVR manufacturing, where they are producing 100% accurate, true to source sound quality in the mid-level AVR market, ie $500 to $1,200 dollar range.

How is it totally FALSE? Has it been PROVEN scientifically that they all have a different SONIC SIGNATURE? Or is it just someone's opinion?

If the "differences" are not significant, it means they are not really audible.

Everyone has an opinion. But when they conduct Double-blinded studies of amps, people just can't seem to tell a statistically significant difference. Why is that? That is the closest thing to a scientic proof that amps don't have a different SIGNATURE SOUND of their own. Everything else is just 100% PURE PERSONAL OPINION. And everyone has an opinion or belief.

People will believe whatever they want to believe and spend their money however they want. It's a hobby. No right or wrong, no true or false way to enjoy. biggrin.gif
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post #12267 of 18902 Old 12-08-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by raycie View Post

All new.. basically close to free wires...
B&W = $1,000
Stands = $150
Sub = $700
Amp = $700
Wires and tax = $100

Very good, then. biggrin.gif

I thought you spent like $400 on wires. biggrin.gif
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post #12268 of 18902 Old 12-08-2012, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

Raycie, i did not see if you already had previous equipment but if you don't then you are missing out on a source unless you are going to rely on the marantz to decode internet radio or airplay. Even a cheap dac will enhance your experience.

I'd like to hear more on this "Even a cheap dac will enhance your experience." My Onkyo pre/pro has six 192/32bit burr-brown DACs. Why would a cheap external DAC make it sound better? Part of the reason I am asking is because I was looking (not listening) at the Peachtree DAC iT and cannot for the life of me explain to myself how the external DAC would be better than the stuff that is already in the Onkyo.

Your opinions would be appreciated.

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post #12269 of 18902 Old 12-08-2012, 03:25 PM
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If he didn't have any source and was running computer audio then yes, he would need a dac.
That would be for two channel audio.
There reason you have six dac's is for surround sound configuration. One per channel.
If the only music he will be playing is from whatever the receiver can play via internet or airplay then he could use the dac's in the receiver and not have a bad souding system. The "whole not have a bad sounding system" was based on a theory that a company that makes audio equipment would be able to produce sound better than what they bother putting in a cell phone.
If anyone argues with me that all dac's sound the same. That's fine but plug your phone in via 3.5mm analog and then plug in a dedicated dac and you will have a more magical experience from what i have encountered.

who do i talk to around here about changing my title from "advanced member" to "specialED member"
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post #12270 of 18902 Old 12-08-2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bthrb4u View Post

If he didn't have any source and was running computer audio then yes, he would need a dac.
That would be for two channel audio.
There reason you have six dac's is for surround sound configuration. One per channel.
If the only music he will be playing is from whatever the receiver can play via internet or airplay then he could use the dac's in the receiver and not have a bad souding system. The "whole not have a bad sounding system" was based on a theory that a company that makes audio equipment would be able to produce sound better than what they bother putting in a cell phone.
If anyone argues with me that all dac's sound the same. That's fine but plug your phone in via 3.5mm analog and then plug in a dedicated dac and you will have a more magical experience from what i have encountered.

So specifically in my system, I listen to computer based audio (stream ripped music), I stream some internet radio but not much, and listen to CDs.Would I benefit from an external DAC and at what price point considering my pre/pro may not be "high end" but is not exactly "low end"?

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