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post #121 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Another way to state it is this: The 600 series has all of the technology

Patently untrue. It has some of the technology.

Quote:


and sonic excellence that characterize the "B&W sound".

Again, hardly all but that is, of course, subjective.

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post #122 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppt123 View Post

I have the 704s and considering a center channel. The HTM 7 is a bit too tall with the slanted design and i don't have much space. What do you guys think about using 600 series center with the 704s?

They both have the 1x25mm alloy dome tweeter if that matters. I know timbre matching is important for the 3 front speakers but how bad could it possibly be?

Anybody have an opinion?

Also, try demoing 704's with the 600 series center then the HTM7 at your dealer if your that worried.

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post #123 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 06:07 PM
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QueueCumber

I forgot...thanks for the pic's, can't wait too see the finished product

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post #124 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 06:16 PM
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Just testing my new signature. I want to make sure there is no confusion. . .

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #125 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 06:25 PM
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Yeah, the Hans Theessink albums were all vinyl on Acoustic Sounds except the "Bridges" album unfortunately, but I did find it on Amazon as well and ordered it there. Thank you though.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of the recommended albums, both in my room when the room is finished in the next two weeks or so (possibly three - God I hope not...) and in showrooms. I'm especially excited about the albums with organ music on them.

Kal, did you ever get a chance to listen to the 800Ds. If so, what is your take on the differences between the 800D and the 802D that warrant the price differential? I'm particularly interested in impressions in those low frequency ranges where the major differences between both speakers are implemented. Thank you in advance for any potential insights.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
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post #126 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Actually, you don't know me. That you suggest that you do is all a part of you acting like an obnoxious prick. Suggesting that you know my type from reading occasional posts here and there that I post on these fora is good proof that you are a condescending jackass as well. Especially when you start making statements and suggest that your statements were what I have been saying in my posts, which couldn't be farther from the truth. For example, I never said that spending more money means a speaker will sound better. I also never said that more expensive means better. These are little fantasy scenerios you ran in your own head before deciding to post an attack against me, for what reason/reasons, I have no idea. In any case, you end up looking like the jerk IMO, since you decided to make these assumptions about me without any reason or proof that I am that kind of person. Especially since nothing in my posts suggests I am that kind of person, or that I even believe the kind of things you are attributing to me in your post.

People tend to do that a lot on these fora, attack people without any real reason or provocation, or make up some kind of fantasy person in their own head then attack that person without really reading their posts and considering what they are saying. This happpened to me all too recently in a thread about ID speakers where people came into the thread and didn't even read the things I had been saying, but rather attacked me based on what people already attacking me were posting... One guy started attacking me based on the fact that I owned 802D speakers, meanwhile it had never even been a part of the discussion until he brought them up (he came into the post, quoted me with a post that had nothing to do with his actual response, then declared that his $3000 dollar Rocket speakers blow away my 802D speakers - very similar to this post in some ways, except he was a terrible speller and his grammar was atrocious).

The only thing I have said, in a nutshell, is that his opinion might not match up with someone else's opinion, so he shouldn't present his opinion as fact. I dont agree with him concerning the 600 series speakers offering at least 90% of the sound quality of the 802Ds, making me one example of why his opinions aren't fact. You are another example of someone who doesn't agree with his opinion on the topic. I was actually thinking around 70% IMO, but hammering down a hard number on such a thing is silly I think, since there are many variables involved.

BTW here is the original sentence I had issue with:

You know what im not a B&W owner and I normally dont get on owners threads,but I am a former owner of 2 different B&W speakers so i guess that makes me a alum,If im not welcome on this thread,im gonna welcome myself on here for a few posts anyway.Since it seems that you have have short term memory loss, and before you forget who I am.I see how you are criticizing people on how they dont read all of your posts and they misinterpret what you say,becuase it makes you look like a jerk but you say you are really not,well i guess im not the only one who thinks so.When did i ever say that i owned the Onix Reference 3s?I think you need to go back and read that thread all over.Plenty of people can see your smog attitude on this forum,even though you try very well to hide it and you act like a totally different person sometimes,me and John were talking about you and how often you change into a different person,and how your cool one minute and then your a prick the next.Are you bipolar or something?Whether they own B&W or they own Onix or ect people on this forum will see and you have been showing them what kind of guy you really are the last week or so.You have all these posts in row stop bragging and let someonelse talk,and stop being a glory hound.I hope my grammer was good enough for you this time,i hope it looks pretty enough for you,but I see you are still talking about what I told you so aparently you understood me just fine and maybe what that other guy in this thread said about you isnt just his opinion,maybe its just a fact.
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post #127 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 06:51 PM
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I have Classe cam 200 mono amps ,would to know if the N803 make a good match?
Any one has this combination, I am aware there are more factor to this equation,but will love to hear any feed back.

Thank you

Djoel


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post #128 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Kal, did you ever get a chance to listen to the 800Ds. If so, what is your take on the differences between the 800D and the 802D that warrant the price differential? I'm particularly interested in impressions in those low frequency ranges where the major differences between both speakers are implemented. Thank you in advance for any potential insights.

I heard the 800Ds only briefly and under unfamiliar conditions. However, afaik, the 800D and 802D are identical except for the larger woofer/enclosure and a capacitor/coil value to accommodate the different woofers, so I would expect no differences other than in the bottom end. I did review the N800Sigs in my system and think that the 802D is better in the parts that it shares with the 800D. Extreme bass? Yeah, the 800 is better and beefier but, in my room and in my use, the difference was not big a deal.

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post #129 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 07:05 PM
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So far the B&W owners thread has yet to be a place to be positive about our speakers. Allimental is certainly kicking himself for not being able to comment on the rants going on here, salivating over missed opportunities. Must be more patient next time my friend, you knocked yourself out too early in the game!

Anyhoo, B&W makes $600 speakers for people who are willing to pay $600 and $20,000 dollar speakers for those who are willing to pay $20,000. Comparing them against each other is not a wise thing to do. I have personally listened to the 603's, 705's, 704's, 804S's and 802D's and found that each sounded noticably different. The only reason they had that "B&W Sound" was because they were all B&W's - but like I said, they all sounded quite different from each other.

I completely understand what PULLIMANN meant by saying that the 604's have 90% of the sound of 802D's - basically his opinion that they are of good value for those who can't afford 802D's, which are premier speakers in terms of sound quality and price. I also completely understand QueueCumber's thought that this is a misleading statement - when viewed as a statement of fact it is an absolulte falsehood. But I believe that PULLIMANN's intent was based on relevant value and was thus an opinion and advice to be weighed by whomever is asking for it.

So you are both right and you are both wrong. Whew I'm glad that is settled!

So, if you can afford $600 speakers such as those in the B&W 600 series you should compare them against similarly priced speakers from other manufacturers. If you like the way the the B&W's sound more than the others, then you like the B&W sound - albeit the $600 B&W sound. Repeat this process for each price point though and I am fairly positive that you will not always prefer the B&W sound.

I loved the 804S sound compared to other offerings, and the price was what I was willing to pay, so I am personally a huge fan of the B&W sound (for that price range!).
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post #130 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 07:21 PM
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^ Nicely done....except you forgot your 'IMO'.
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post #131 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

you can find
Hans Theessink's Late Last Night (Call Me, Blue Groove BG-4020).
at
http://www.theessink.com/en/shop/shop.html

I don't know what it sounds like, don't have it myself. I didn't bother searching
out the other suggested titles. IMO when auditioning speakers you should select music you know, is representative of what you listen to, and preferably like. So my suggestion would be to use music you already own.

Yeah, I have a list of albums I already bring with me for demo-ing speakers. I just wanted some additional material that heavily covers the range between 30-350 Hz where the 800D and the 802D have different woofers. This will allow me to make some more intensive comparisons between these two speakers to decide if I feel the 800Ds would be worth the extra money they would cost to use them as my front left and right speakers in a HT/surround system. If I prefer the 800Ds it would actually end up working out well compared to switching companies completely like, for example, if I like another product better (such as the Kharmas), in which case I will have to sell the 802Ds at a significant loss in order to replace them. If I were to get the 800Ds, replacing the 802Ds would just mean moving them to the surround channels instead of selling them...

I'm primarily psyched to demo the Focals, Kharmas, Joseph Audios, and Aerials. I'm looking forward to the Focals and Kharmas in particular because the Kharmas use Focal's cones in a proprietary setup, so I want to see how they compare to each other. The last time I did comparisons like this I decided to stay with the 802Ds, but I never did extensive comparisons between the 800Ds and the 802Ds at that time. At the time I demo-ed the Wilson Watt Puppy 7s, the Revel Ultimas (the $15K ones), Magnepans (the top of the line ones), Martin Logans, Avantgarde Duos. I need to try and demo the Wilson Watt Puppy 8s and the Revel Ultima2 lines as well, since they supposedly changed quite a bit between the old and new incarnations. I would have demo-ed some used Sonus Faber speakers as well, but the salesman at a Harvey electronics in Greenwich CT tried to manipulate me too much, which really bothered me.

I don't remember exactly how much difference I noticed between the 800D and the 802D at the time I did all those demos, though I did listen to the 800Ds in both White Plains NY and Greenwich CT, I never did any quick switching A/B comparisons. The nice thing about the dealer in Greenwish is they can set them both up on an A/B switch and all I will need to do is roll them into and out of place when it comes time to compare the two. I remember feeling that I was getting much of the same sound from the 802Ds as the 800Ds for a significant difference in price. I want to see if that is still true in a situation where I A/B them directly and use musical material that will accentuate their differences.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
-- Saint Jerome (374 AD - 419 AD)


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post #132 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I heard the 800Ds only briefly and under unfamiliar conditions. However, afaik, the 800D and 802D are identical except for the larger woofer/enclosure and a capacitor/coil value to accommodate the different woofers, so I would expect no differences other than in the bottom end. I did review the N800Sigs in my system and think that the 802D is better in the parts that it shares with the 800D. Extreme bass? Yeah, the 800 is better and beefier but, in my room and in my use, the difference was not big a deal.

That is how I felt after listening to them on different occasions without directly comparing them. I guess I'll see if it holds up completely once I get the chance to A/B them. Thanks. Perhaps the guys where I bought my 802Ds will let me bring them home for a weekend and try them in my room when it is complete. That is probably the best situation to test them under I would think?

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
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post #133 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Also, try demoing 704's with the 600 series center then the HTM7 at your dealer if your that worried.

For this kind of thing, demoing briefly in the store won't be much of a help IMO. So i guess I will have to experiment with phantom center and a 600 center (i'll buy used since i will lose very little if i have to sell them again). The htm 7 is gonna be my last resort.
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post #134 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ppt123 View Post

For this kind of thing, demoing briefly in the store won't be much of a help IMO. I will have to experiment with phantom center and a 600 center (i'll buy used since i will lose very little if i have to sell them again). The htm 7 is gonna be my last resort.

ok...

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post #135 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawaun da bomb View Post

You know what im not a B&W owner and I normally dont get on owners threads,but I am a former owner of 2 different B&W speakers so i guess that makes me a alum,If im not welcome on this thread,im gonna welcome myself on here for a few posts anyway.Since it seems that you have have short term memory loss, and before you forget who I am.I see how you are criticizing people on how they dont read all of your posts and they misinterpret what you say,becuase it makes you look like a jerk but you say you are really not,well i guess im not the only one who thinks so.When did i ever say that i owned the Onix Reference 3s?I think you need to go back and read that thread all over.Plenty of people can see your smog attitude on this forum,even though you try very well to hide it and you act like a totally different person sometimes,me and John were talking about you and how often you change into a different person,and how your cool one minute and then your a prick the next.Are you bipolar or something?Whether they own B&W or they own Onix or ect people on this forum will see and you have been showing them what kind of guy you really are the last week or so.You have all these posts in row stop bragging and let someonelse talk,and stop being a glory hound.I hope my grammer was good enough for you this time,i hope it looks pretty enough for you,but I see you are still talking about what I told you so aparently you understood me just fine and maybe what that other guy in this thread said about you isnt just his opinion,maybe its just a fact.

Besides the serious mental issues I think you have... I don't really think anyone cares what you say or do on these fora. So whatever crusade you think you are on isn't showing anyone anything. Chances are someone read your post, if they could even read it, and immediately forgot everything you wrote. I feel that way about my own posts as well. I don't expect people to really think about the posts for very long after they read them, because most people don't. They read a post, perhaps respond, and then forget about it and move on to something else.

I do think it is funny that you are so desperate to find someone else to attack me with that you showed up in a thread for speaker owners of a brand you don't even own. As far as other people who don't like me are concerned, I am not bothered, as most of them are much more unbalanced mentally than I am, IMO. I'm curious what kind of glory you think I am going after that is attainable on these fora. I'm bored and I like to write, I also have a lot of free time during the day while acting as the contractor for my HT/Listening room as it is being built. Pretty glorious, huh? What am I bragging about? You were the one who brought up the speakers I owned in that previous thread where you attacked me for no reason, I didn't bring it up at all, so how could I be bragging about them? I haven't bragged about the gear I own in this thread. I don't even mention my most expensive gear hardly ever on these fora. I posted the gear I own in this thread because someone else requested pictures, probably after reading my profile.

I actually went back to that thread (Buying speakers w/o listening to them) to check on your posts again and now I see why Zeus was attacking me in this thread. He was in that thread also and he was attacking me there also, and like on this thread, he was attacking me there before you started attacking me there (without provocation and with terribly flawed logic). I get the feeling that you are either the same person or you are buddies. Once I proved he was incorrect (that his logic was fatally flawed even) and that he was attacking me for no reason in that thread, you showed up and full force started attacking me for no reason about a topic I didn't bring up. A topic that you brought up just to attack me. You took his place in that thread, like you are doing in this thread also. I wonder if they can check and see if your IP addresses match on the posts you have been aiming at me. You both were attacking me in that thread and you both followed me to this thread to attack me here as well. That is pathetic, really, it is very pathetic, ask anyone here... I don't see why you think I am the one with mental issues, since you are the one who is stalking me (excuse me, you are the ones who are stalking me)! You both showed up here and almost immediately started attacking me personally. Does Zeus even own B&W speakers, or is he a previous owner like you?

Let's see. Zeus made one post earlier today saying, "Now seems as good a time as any", then his next post and all his posts following it are aimed at attacking me. Taiwan didn't even bother with pretenses, he started with the harassment right away. You two are sad indeed, but it is entertaining to say the least. If it wasn't entertaining I would just add you two to ignore like I did to John for a little while. I admit, you two make me look good. I appreciate that.

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post #136 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

If I were to get the 800Ds, replacing the 802Ds would just mean moving them to the surround channels instead of selling them...

802D surrounds. That is the good life my friend. My pre-emptive congratulations if you pull that off.
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post #137 of 19368 Old 11-28-2006, 11:39 PM
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802D surrounds. That is the good life my friend. My pre-emptive congratulations if you pull that off.

Thanks. I appreciate the congratulations, it took me awhile to save up for the upgrade.

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post #138 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Besides the serious mental issues I think you have...

man you guys are starting to crack me up now!

This is "sitcom" material...............

I could only imagine if we were all on the (stupid) annual "AVSForum Party Cruise", aboard a ship together, man you guys would be literally ringing each-other's neck's for 7-days straight!
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post #139 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tawaun da bomb View Post

.I hope my grammer was good enough for you this time,i hope it looks pretty enough for you,

No offense Tawaun but it's very difficult to read your posts. They're like one long run-on sentence. If you would at least put a space after the period at the end of the sentence it would make them much easier to read.

Again no offense, but doing so would make your posts and opinions easier to understand, gammer and spelling errors aside.
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post #140 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Be careful, English may not be his first language. There are many foreign born posters here.

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #141 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 05:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

New people to these fora don't always know the difference.

In that case, maybe there needs to be a sticky to the effect that "Every statement (other than a direct quote from a scientific paper) on this forum is an opinion."
Actually, I think that to suggest that anyone cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion is an insult to their intelligence. If someone really is that stupid, and ends up buying something they don't like as a result, then it is hard for me to have any sympathy for them.
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post #142 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Brownstone View Post

Anyway, I'll never begrudge anyone who spends more than I did (or could); there's no jealous envy on my end. As a friend of mine once remarked, "If you got the jack, what's the problem?"

Jealousy,envy,egos, are all part of life peaple deal with. I dont have a problem with someone owning expensive electronics gear, cars, homes, etc. It's just the attitude of some that think other peaples gear is not even worth talking about or recognizing their "enthusiasm" if you dont have gear, etc etc on their level or "price" level. Some think to truely seperate and feel good about themselves you need to spend 20k-30k on speakers. It's all about ego and "status" to some. Some do it for the recogntion to feel better about themselves and act elite on forums like this, others truely are enthusiests and dont present elite attitude.. Que just seems to fall in that category to me.
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post #143 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 05:37 AM
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Foreign poster here and another happy B&W speakers owner

The 600 series are pretty decent speakers for the price, but I think the best application for them is HT. For instance, my 604s, LCR60 and 601s are doing a good job at my bedroom's HT. My wife is not very happy with this, BTW

These speakers were originally located at my main HT place, but I decided to replace them with new Monitor Audio speakers (GR60 for fronts and RS8 for surrounds), which IMO are better than the 600 and 700 for music and multichannel performances.

Unfortunately, the 800 were too expensive for me
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post #144 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 05:41 AM
 
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Maybe not 80-90%, but i would say atleast 75%.

There is a certain level, and really not even a very high level (pretty much anything distinctly better than a HTiB or boombox, IMO) at which almost any system gets the basics right. Everything beyond that is a matter of refinement, with diminishing returns kicking in early. To me, saying that a speaker is only 75% as good as a reference standard like the 802's is far from being a compliment, in fact it is an insult as it implies quite poor performance. To me, even something like the Infinity Primus 250's do much better than 75%. Since the 602's are a big step up from those, they have to rank considerably higher. 90% is really not a stretch, as it is well known that the last 50% of cost goes for the last 1% of performance.
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post #145 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, I think that to suggest that anyone cannot tell the difference between fact and opinion is an insult to their intelligence.

No, it may simply be that they are unfamiliar with the topic. Many responsible people, when making opinion statements, will use language that is less strong, Blowhards , on the other hand, will make very strongly worded opinion statements that sound as if their opinion is one that should be valued or taken seriously, when , in fact, they often lack enough relavant experiance to make their opinions mean much of anything.

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If someone really is that stupid, and ends up buying something they don't like as a result, then it is hard for me to have any sympathy for them.

I would try harder, sympathy is something we should all have more of, and patience too. Some people here have been very patient and sympathetic towards the more inexperianced, obnoxious blowhards despite feeling as if they are guilty by association.

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #146 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 06:05 AM
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To me, saying that a speaker is only 75% as good as a reference standard like the 802's is far from being a compliment, in fact it is an insult as it implies quite poor performance.

I dont know how anyone can come to data conclusion on what percentage better AvsB speaker will be. Maybe it's possible, i dont know. I guess it's all guesswork. Given the price difference i would think you would hope to get more than a 10% increase in performance. I guess that was my whole point with que, and i kind of contradicted myself agreeing what percentage increase their would be. But i also said sometimes the higher end model dont always mean superior performance..Which que seems confident more expensive always=better. But with speakers maybe the performance difference is not quite as dramatic as say when you upgrade horsepower on your car from 300hp- 500hp. You can come to % difference in that situation pretty easily and it's not insulting to say the 300hp car is 75% of the performance of the 500hp car.
But with speakers yea, i guess it was wrong to come to any kind of conclusion what % better speaker A is over B without real data.
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post #147 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 06:07 AM
 
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Some people here have been very patient and sympathetic towards the more inexperianced, obnoxious blowhards .

Such as Alimentall, Tawaun, and yourself?
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post #148 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 06:18 AM
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Such as Alimentall, Tawaun, and yourself?

Pulliamm....yup, you're still da' bomb!
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post #149 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 07:09 AM
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man.. it has been tough reading these last 2 pages.

here is the business theory that works on everything IME.

You spend 20% of your money to get 80% return and 80% of your money to get that last 20%.

With that being said, b&w has many speakers for each price point, and this allows them to reach different target markets. As it was said earlier, the further up the food chain you go, the bigger the slippery slope gets in costs for stuff down the chain, such as electronics, cables, etc.

There is no reason why we need to bicker about the different models b&w offers. We are in a club where we can enjoy each others systems for what they are. I have seen some sweet looking 600 series systems and I have seen some sweet looking 800 series systems.

With that being said, I love seeing pics of everyones b&w setup, so please feel free to post pics, or links to pics!

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
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post #150 of 19368 Old 11-29-2006, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Such as Alimentall, Tawaun, and yourself?

I think we could all be more patient and sympathetic towards you.

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Given the price difference i would think you would hope to get more than a 10% increase in performance.

Given that, for some of my customers, the differance between the 705's and the 805's might be only half a day's pay, then 10% IMPROVEMENT FOR A PRODUCT THEY USE AND ENJOY EVERY DAY would be easy to justify. If a thousand dollars is half a months pay, then it may not be.

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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