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post #1561 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

By all means check out the Hsu subs, they are very good.

In order to determine if your room is causing your boominess, you could get out your sound meter and measure your room response.

Look at this:
http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
Run the test sounds, and graph your room's frequency response with a meter.

Now if you get some high peaks in your room, then NO sub is going to sound good until you find a better placement for it. If you can't move the sub, you're going to have to resort to equalization to get it to sound flatter. Either you have a receiver that does it for you (something equipped with Audyssey room calibration) or buy a sub that allows you to tame those peaks (the SB12 has controls to do that), add bass traps to your room, or just live with the boominess at your listening location.

Just for added information, the peaks would only be +6db at max (this is the theoretical max where a reflected wave exactly constructively interferes with its original wave). What you want to really watch out for are the nulls which could be practically infinite. Nulls tend to make you think that your bass is too low in volume causing you to boost the volume quite a bit. What this usually results in is that the stuff that was normal before is now boosted severely and causes the boom boom. Of course, this effect is made worse by poor decay times so that the transient bass hits are more like a slob-bass fest.
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post #1562 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 09:22 AM
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I agree with Warpdrive. I have 703's and after auditioning the B&W subs I also went with the SVS PB-12 Ultra. Great for music or movies.
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post #1563 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderx View Post

Hi, I recently decided to go with B&W 685's for my front pair. They sound amazing. Compared to DA, Snell, and Paradigm, these sounded the best to MY ears. Snell were probably more detailed by also quite a bit more expensive... I'm using a Rotel RSX-1057 to power these.

Anyway... to my question... I do have an older Polk sub that I'm using for when I watch movies (not too often) and for a little more kick in the low-end when listening to music. The problem is, the sub is not accurate, and quite boomy and muddy. It's a 10", and a cheaper one if I remember right. I need a better sub. I've already played with every setting under the sun to try and get it right.

The room is about 12ft x 20ft, with 10ft ceilings.

Do any of you have experience with the B&W subs? Specifically, the smaller 8" model? I think I'd prefer tighter accuracy over big house-shaking bass for movies.

Thanks

I also recommend a non-B&W sub. B&Ws are great, but for same money you can do better, specially at the lower end of B&W range.

Have a listen to REL. They ONLY make Subwoofers and are absolutely best musical subs I've listened to. The REL T3 is 8" and has a passive woofer as well which helps a lot, it's small enuf to fit anywhere and does an abolutely great job (its so HEAVY for the size).

Pioneer Elite Kuro 111FD, Elite BDP-05FD, Elite 72TXV, B&W 805/XTC/M1.
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post #1564 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Just for added information, the peaks would only be +6db at max (this is the theoretical max where a reflected wave exactly constructively interferes with its original wave). What you want to really watch out for are the nulls which could be practically infinite. Nulls tend to make you think that your bass is too low in volume causing you to boost the volume quite a bit. What this usually results in is that the stuff that was normal before is now boosted severely and causes the boom boom. Of course, this effect is made worse by poor decay times so that the transient bass hits are more like a slob-bass fest.

I believe 6dB is the theoretical max for just two parallel surfaces. Since there are three surface pairs in a room, depending on the dimensions you can end up with a 12 or 18dB peak.
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post #1565 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I believe 6dB is the theoretical max for just two parallel surfaces. Since there are three surface pairs in a room, depending on the dimensions you can end up with a 12 or 18dB peak.

hmm, im not sure actually I have to go find Everest book... its packed somewhere lol.
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post #1566 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

hmm, im not sure actually I have to go find Everest book... its packed somewhere lol.

Stepping out of theory for a moment, I can tell you that I have a 10dB peak at 30Hz in my room. I have the Velodyne DD sub with the built in RTA and the peak is clearly visible in the read-out.
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post #1567 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Stepping out of theory for a moment, I can tell you that I have a 10dB peak at 30Hz in my room. I have the Velodyne DD sub with the built in RTA and the peak is clearly visible in the read-out.

I also have a 10dB peak at 40Hz using my SVS in my room. I know it's not the sub because in another room, the sub is +/- 2dB all the way down from 70Hz. The spike was great for movies, but music sounded like #$#@ until I EQ'ed it out.

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post #1568 of 20055 Old 09-27-2007, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderx View Post

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, my placement locations are very limited due to the way the room is laid out.

I did several hours of reading last night, and think I'm going to go over to the Hsu factory (I live in OC, SoCal) and check out some of their offerings, which seem to get quite good reviews & ratings. Will also go to my B&W dealer to see how they compare. May also audition some of the mid-level velodyne. $600 is the range I'm looking in.

Sort of chiming in after several other posts.
I also have the HSU FT-3 mated with my 604s & LRC 600 for the past 4 years. While each set of ears are different and the new 600s are out, I love the way mine works/sounds together.

Definetely go and listen. Even though I live on the other coast, HSU was very helpful/supportive of my questions prior to my purchase, including recommendations for layout/location. Your living near by is an added advantage.

Good luck & please post your followup.

Thanks,
..Mark
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post #1569 of 20055 Old 09-28-2007, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I sell B&W speakers....I also sell many Velodyne subs

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #1570 of 20055 Old 09-28-2007, 02:25 PM
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Jake,

What subwoofer do you recommend to go with B&W M1s? I would like it to respond well to both music and movies. Very loud bass is not what I am after (8-10 inch would be fine), I would like the bass to be clean and responsive. What do you think of the B&W ASW610? I would assume the subwoofer should respond up to 120Hz to complement the M1s?

Thanks
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post #1571 of 20055 Old 09-28-2007, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adm View Post

Sort of chiming in after several other posts.
I also have the HSU FT-3 mated with my 604s & LRC 600 for the past 4 years. While each set of ears are different and the new 600s are out, I love the way mine works/sounds together.

Definetely go and listen. Even though I live on the other coast, HSU was very helpful/supportive of my questions prior to my purchase, including recommendations for layout/location. Your living near by is an added advantage.

Good luck & please post your followup.

Thanks,
..Mark

Went over to the Hsu shop today. Love small operators! Little office/warehouse in a light commercial area. Anyway, called and talked to a lady who set me up with an appointment with Dr. Hsu. Talk about gracious, they were very friendly. I had brought a drawing of my room, measurements, sizes, he talked through placement, theory behind the designs and placement, room harmonics, variance in crossover frequency, etc. Nothing like small company service.

They have a demo room setup with their speakers, TV, receivers, couch, etc. Put in some CDs I had brought with me and went to town. Listened to some jazz, some indie rock (with lots of bad recordings!), some more mainstream music, Dr. Hsu had some DVDs we played with.

I decided on the VTF-1 over the VTF-2 MK3, mostly because of size (ie the Wife factor). Both are incredibly musical. The VTF-2 will hit deeper. But the VTF-1 goes plenty deep for me and sounded great on music. Very tight, no muddiness, clear punch, great detail.

He offered to exchange for the larger unit if I didn't feel the VTF-1 had enough punch once I got it home, but I seriously doubt I'll take them up on the offer based on what I heard in the shop.

Compared to B&W, Velodyne, Polk. The B&W just wasn't that impressive, nothing like their main speakers. And expensive. The Polk didn't win me over. The Velodyne was very nice, but a lot more expensive than the Hsu for similar sound quality, although the Velodyne has a better finish (doesn't matter to me, mine will be hidden).

Will set it up tonight, if sounds 80% as good as it did in his listening room, it's a keeper. Looking forward to it.

Will report back on in-home experience later. Looking forward to it.
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post #1572 of 20055 Old 09-28-2007, 03:35 PM
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Glad to hear it.

I felt the same way, and my contact was via telephone and email. BTW- small error on my part --it is the VTF-3 that I have. Your letters are correct. My earlier post listing was from memory and slightly off...

I had a similar experience when I auditioned the B&W subs.

ENJOY, and looking forward to your follow up.
..Mark
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post #1573 of 20055 Old 09-28-2007, 03:45 PM
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"Long time listener, first time caller."

Seriously, I just stumbled across this thread. Haven't even tried reading it. Thought I'd post what I have, ask a question and move forward.

speakers:
Nautilus 804 front left and right
Nautilus HTM1 center
Nautilus SCM1 surrounds
Velodyne HGS18 sub
had an extra pair of Paradigm Atom's which are currently by L/R back channels in my 7.1 configuration.

processor:
anthem d2

amps:
bel canto eVo6 (bi-amped powering front 3 speakers)
ati1506 (using 4 channels to power the surrounds)


My question - wife noticed the huge difference in quality of the paradigms. (Yeah!) I'm looking at replacing those with something that will better voice match the other speakers. Don't have room for another pair of SCM1's or even a pair of 805's. Am considering a pair of DM600's or the new 685. Also looking at the inwall CCM60's or CWM60 (I think that's the right #) to go in the slanted ceiling just behind the listening postion. Thoughts on these various options?

I see the recent posts about sub woofers, so I'll add this:

I love the HGS18. Have had it for many years. kicks butt in this huge 29' x 24' ( x 8-12' A-frame ceiling ) room. Some sites suggest a room this large needs 2 18" subs. I can't imaging that. Wow! This beast can rattle the walls and pound my chest.

Have thought about trading in on a DD18, but can't imaging it would be that much better.

Happy listening!

=== Tim
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post #1574 of 20055 Old 09-29-2007, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


What subwoofer do you recommend to go with B&W M1s? I would like it to respond well to both music and movies. Very loud bass is not what I am after (8-10 inch would be fine), I would like the bass to be clean and responsive. What do you think of the B&W ASW610? I would assume the subwoofer should respond up to 120Hz to complement the M1s?

I haven't had enough experiance with the 608 & 610's, but they are a big improvement over their previous incarnations..........the smaller the speaker the more the sub will have to do, therefor an SPL1000R or DD10 would be in order, but guessing that this isn't what you want to spend, try the 610, or, if you can stretch, I've had a lot of success with the Velodyne Minivee when used with satelittes, as well as the Era SUB8.

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #1575 of 20055 Old 09-30-2007, 12:32 AM
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I just moved and bought a new receiver primarily for HDMI and watching HDTV and HD DVD. I've got my original B&W DM 602s (Series 1) and CC6 center channel. Couple of questions:

1) I can specify the crossover for each set of speakers (front, center, surround, sub), how should I go about determining what the crossover should be? I've got a pretty basic sub.

2) The SR-605 allows me to bi-amp the front speakers, will this provide a noticeable benefit?

thanks
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post #1576 of 20055 Old 09-30-2007, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adm View Post

Glad to hear it.

I felt the same way, and my contact was via telephone and email. BTW- small error on my part --it is the VTF-3 that I have. Your letters are correct. My earlier post listing was from memory and slightly off...

I had a similar experience when I auditioned the B&W subs.

ENJOY, and looking forward to your follow up.
..Mark

Spent a good part of yesterday calibrating and setting up the new sub. Overall, VERY happy. My room has a roughly 6db dip at 63hz that I'm still trying to work out, but the output is within 2db from 25hz up to 250hz (using Hsu test cd). Left it crossed at 80hz using the Rotel for bass management.

The VTF-1 is more than adequate for my room setup (about 2400sq ft). This is a 200w, 10" ported design. I left is setup in the deep pass setup (1 port plugged).

This thing drives hard, loud, and even at soft volumes fills the room with proper, musical bass. Played a couple movies and it definitely does it's job.

The wife, who isn't too much into this whole obsession, even commented that it sounded great, and to use her words, the music sounded "snappier", which she is referring to as punch and texture in the bass lines (after I asked her to describe what she meant!).

I'm very happy, and it would definitely suggest it (to MY ears!) paired with the B&W 685.
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post #1577 of 20055 Old 09-30-2007, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyderx View Post

Spent a good part of yesterday calibrating and setting up the new sub. Overall, VERY happy. My room has a roughly 6db dip at 63hz that I'm still trying to work out, but the output is within 2db from 25hz up to 250hz (using Hsu test cd). Left it crossed at 80hz using the Rotel for bass management.

The VTF-1 is more than adequate for my room setup (about 2400sq ft). This is a 200w, 10" ported design. I left is setup in the deep pass setup (1 port plugged).

This thing drives hard, loud, and even at soft volumes fills the room with proper, musical bass. Played a couple movies and it definitely does it's job.

The wife, who isn't too much into this whole obsession, even commented that it sounded great, and to use her words, the music sounded "snappier", which she is referring to as punch and texture in the bass lines (after I asked her to describe what she meant!).

I'm very happy, and it would definitely suggest it (to MY ears!) paired with the B&W 685.


Glad to hear it.
A thought: If you would really like to show how that sub produces, try the following DVD [In Search of Nemo: Chapt 25 -- when Darla taps on the outside of the fish tank]. It is a stunnnnnnnnnner and you might feel the walls shake

That one also got the WAF big time approval at our place

Enjoy.
..Mark
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post #1578 of 20055 Old 09-30-2007, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMS252 View Post

2) The SR-605 allows me to bi-amp the front speakers, will this provide a noticeable benefit?

In a blind test, my wife preferred our 602s when bi-amped. The difference is very subtle, though, so I wouldn't bother to do it unless you already have the speaker wire just lying around.
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post #1579 of 20055 Old 10-01-2007, 11:10 PM
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I'd never heard of B&W speakers until this past weekend and I'm I ever happy I did. While scavaging some shops in another town I stumbled upon the M-1's. I grabbed 5 of them (still need 2.1 more) along with the Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH.

Shane
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post #1580 of 20055 Old 10-02-2007, 07:20 AM
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I just finished putting my first system together and thought I'd share it. I am a college student so funds were limited, along with possible speaker placements.

Components are
B&W 685 Bookshelf speakers (Bi-Wired)
Krix Seismix 3 mk3 subwoofer (amazing locally made aussie product)
Yamaha 661B AVR (Using the Bi-Wire feature)
Samsung 32" LCD

Pictured here! Havent had time to tidy all the cables and such up with uni mid-semesters on.

I upgraded from a VideoLogic Sirocco 2.1 PC speaker system, basically the only HiFi style PC speaker system ever made and I still consider them to be the best PC speakers I heave heard. They blow logitech/klipsch/creative out of the water. That said the step up from the Sirooco to the component system listed above is massive. You just hear so much that you could never hear before. The krix sub especially is amazing to my ears, it is subtle enough to be very musical while still being able to output massive amounts of bass when needed. Overall I am very very happy with the new system, but I know that the 685s will sound much, much better when I can get them off the desk and onto some stands with a decent amount of seperation between them.
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post #1581 of 20055 Old 10-02-2007, 07:36 AM
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nice setup lithast.

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post #1582 of 20055 Old 10-02-2007, 11:26 AM
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I still have my Videologic Sirocco Crossfire (4.1) system going strong for the computer, and its really no slouch either way. But then, i dont use it for movies, only a tv-episode now and then and only casual listening when doing other stuff at the comp.
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post #1583 of 20055 Old 10-06-2007, 04:44 AM
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Hello,

I recently bought B&W 683 fronts and HTM61 center. I couldn't make up my mind on a receiver and decided to try the Onkyo SR705.

In the past week, two different AV installers have expressed dismay when we've told them we're using an Onkyo receiver with B&W speakers. Am I really shortchanging the speakers using this receiver?

I read the thread a few pages back where a poster had a similar situation with B&W CM1's. Do the 683's require similar power as the CM1s? Right now I have not bi-amped but it remains an option.

Thanks.
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post #1584 of 20055 Old 10-06-2007, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytorr View Post

Hello,

I recently bought B&W 683 fronts and HTM61 center. I couldn't make up my mind on a receiver and decided to try the Onkyo SR705.

In the past week, two different AV installers have expressed dismay when we've told them we're using an Onkyo receiver with B&W speakers. Am I really shortchanging the speakers using this receiver?

I read the thread a few pages back where a poster had a similar situation with B&W CM1's. Do the 683's require similar power as the CM1s? Right now I have not bi-amped but it remains an option.

Thanks.

Bi-amping won't really help, at least not at this level. AV installers usually express dismay when hooking up entry level receivers to entry-mid level speakers. But, what is more important is: Does the receiver work well for YOU in YOUR room? Do you hear any audible distortion at the volumes you listen to? If you feel the receiver is working well, and you cannot hear any audible distortion, then the answer is: The receiver is good enough for you.

I don't know exactly what model receiver you have, but if you feel that you are not getting as much power as you would like to send to your speakers, buy an external amplifier and hook it to the pre-outs of your receiver.

Passive Bi-amping would only ensure that your drivers each see the rated output of your receiver at the appropriate impedance level (assuming those ratings are correct). When hooked up normally, your drivers each see a fraction of that rated power. Since the tweeter generally does not require much power for these types of speakers, the woofers get most of the power anyways. If you are having dynamic headroom problems, the passive bi-amp might help a little, but it won't give you much more power into your woofers as you are already getting in your standard wiring. When it comes to a requirement of more dynamic headroom, or just louder volumes, nothing beats having additional power, usually in the form of a separate external amplifier rated for at least double the power than what you already have available to you. (Double the power gives +3db headroom in best of cases)
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post #1585 of 20055 Old 10-06-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaytorr View Post

Hello,

I recently bought B&W 683 fronts and HTM61 center. I couldn't make up my mind on a receiver and decided to try the Onkyo SR705.

In the past week, two different AV installers have expressed dismay when we've told them we're using an Onkyo receiver with B&W speakers. Am I really shortchanging the speakers using this receiver?

I read the thread a few pages back where a poster had a similar situation with B&W CM1's. Do the 683's require similar power as the CM1s? Right now I have not bi-amped but it remains an option.

Thanks.

If you had it their way, those AV installers would have recommended some very expensive Rotel gear with a separate power amp. There is nothing wrong with running the B&Ws with an Onkyo receiver. I think the perception in their minds is that a consumer receiver such as the Onkyo won't deliver adequate power to all channels, and that the sound quality is subpar due to the fact that Onkyo is a consumer brand. That would be true if you were running some $300 receiver, but a receiver such as the 705 should not have any problems driving the 683. If your room is very big then you can always add an external amp to the Onkyo. The other aspect of the bias on those dealers is sound quality. Something like Rotel receiver would indeed look and may even sound nicer, but IMHO, I don't think you are shortchanging yourself. The difference in sound quality from upgrading receivers, despite anecdotes from people who claim night and day differences, is very subtle at best.

You could try biamping but I doubt you'll notice a difference at all. It's worth a try for kicks.

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post #1586 of 20055 Old 10-06-2007, 07:28 PM
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There is nothing wrong with running the B&Ws with an Onkyo receiver. I think the perception in their minds is that a consumer receiver such as the Onkyo won't deliver adequate power to all channels,

Deliverable current would be greater from a Rotel or other NON-current limiting receiver (ie; B&K, Arcam, Sunfire, Mac, Lexicon) OR from straight amps which also have higher current output. However, if you have a small room, don't listen loud, or restrict dynamic range , you may not need more power than the Onkyo has....I would need it though.
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and that the sound quality is subpar due to the fact that Onkyo is a consumer brand.

Well Rotel is a CONSUMER brand as well and the only thing that keeps most mass market brands from delivering enough output is the fact that these companies want to save on repair calls (from blown fuses and amp stages) , they want to charge less, and they don't think their average Joe 6PK will notice.
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That would be true if you were running some $300 receiver, but a receiver such as the 705 should not have any problems driving the 683.

I HAVE CLIPPED A DTR7.8 WITH THOSE SPEAKERS.
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If your room is very big then you can always add an external amp to the Onkyo

.
GOOD ADVICE.
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The other aspect of the bias on those dealers is sound quality. Something like Rotel receiver would indeed look and may even sound nicer,

Then they are right to be biased if it sounds better , no?
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but IMHO, I don't think you are shortchanging yourself. The difference in sound quality from upgrading receivers, despite anecdotes from people who claim night and day differences, is very subtle at best.

I'd suggest you let someone demonstate for you and see what you think for yourself.
You might not notice, especially if you aren't listening at higher volumes with dynamic material....but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

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Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

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post #1587 of 20055 Old 10-06-2007, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post

Deliverable current would be greater from a Rotel or other NON-current limiting receiver (ie; B&K, Arcam, Sunfire, Mac, Lexicon) OR from straight amps which also have higher current output. However, if you have a small room, don't listen loud, or restrict dynamic range , you may not need more power than the Onkyo has....I would need it though.

....

I HAVE CLIPPED A DTR7.8 WITH THOSE SPEAKERS.

Certainly one has to consider the size of the room and the real world usage of the system. I have had no problems with my Onkyo driving my CMs to very loud volumes (beyond reference level) cleanly in a 2800 cu ft room.

As for clipping a 7.8, you must have been pushing them pretty hard as an Ultra 2 amp shouldn't really have a problem reproducing decent dynamics in a large room for the 683's.

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post #1588 of 20055 Old 10-07-2007, 11:06 AM
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Question for you B&W experts and/or 703 owners: Which of B&W in-ceiling surrounds do you recommend to complement 703s with a HTM7 center.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Cheers,

Gary
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post #1589 of 20055 Old 10-08-2007, 10:25 AM
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Has anyone seen (or know if its even available yet) the new Wenge "finish" on the 600 series? My dealer doesn't have it yet and that's the color I am leaning towards.
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post #1590 of 20055 Old 10-08-2007, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Question for you B&W experts and/or 703 owners: Which of B&W in-ceiling surrounds do you recommend to complement 703s with a HTM7 center.

ccm817/818

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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