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post #1801 of 18822 Old 11-24-2007, 11:53 AM
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"Hard to drive" means one or both of the following:
1. At some audio frequencies but not all, the speaker requires a lot of power from the amplifier. If your amplifier can't deliver enough current at those frequencies, then sonically your system will "run out of gas" at louder listening levels. People usually refer to this as a "bumpy impendance curve." Your amplifier is working harder and running hotter when powering a speaker like this, which can shorten the amplifier's lifespan. There are a few infamous speakers that have very low impedance at all frequencies, such as the infamous Apogee Scintilla (nominal impedance of 1 ohm).

2. Some speakers have low sensitivity, requiring a LOT of amplifier power at all frequencies to play at reasonable volume levels. The hardest-to-drive speakers are typically the ones with a very bumpy impedance curve and low sensitivity.

See http://gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/spkramp.html for a really clear explanation that non-engineers like me can follow.

I would add that an amplifier has lots more power available for fronts/center/surrounds when the low frequencies are routed to the subwoofer's amplifier, as they are in your home theater system.

The http://www.gcaudio website, which I hadn't seen before, has some clearly written articles on the basics of system setup in it's "How To" section, under "Resources." You won't agree with everything there, e.g., whether cables benefit from break-in (the writer says YES).

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post #1802 of 18822 Old 11-24-2007, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

"Hard to drive" means one or both of the following:
1. At some audio frequencies but not all, the speaker requires a lot of power from the amplifier. If your amplifier can't deliver enough current at those frequencies, then sonically your system will "run out of gas" at louder listening levels. People usually refer to this as a "bumpy impendance curve." Your amplifier is working harder and running hotter when powering a speaker like this, which can shorten the amplifier's lifespan. There are a few infamous speakers that have very low impedance at all frequencies, such as the infamous Apogee Scintilla (nominal impedance of 1 ohm).

2. Some speakers have low sensitivity, requiring a LOT of amplifier power at all frequencies to play at reasonable volume levels. The hardest-to-drive speakers are typically the ones with a very bumpy impedance curve and low sensitivity.

See http://gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/spkramp.html for a really clear explanation that non-engineers like me can follow.

I would add that an amplifier has lots more power available for fronts/center/surrounds when the low frequencies are routed to the subwoofer's amplifier, as they are in your home theater system.

The http://www.gcaudio website, which I hadn't seen before, has some clearly written articles on the basics of system setup in it's "How To" section, under "Resources." You won't agree with everything there, e.g., whether cables benefit from break-in (the writer says YES).

Great reply, thanks. One more question, you wrote:

"I would add that an amplifier has lots more power available for fronts/center/surrounds when the low frequencies are routed to the subwoofer's amplifier, as they are in your home theater system"

I have speakers set to small, crossover at 80 and Bass set to "Subwoofer" in the amp setup, I assume this is what you are referring to?
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post #1803 of 18822 Old 11-24-2007, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrilledCheese View Post

Great reply, thanks. One more question...I have speakers set to small, crossover at 80 and Bass set to "Subwoofer" in the amp setup, I assume this is what you are referring to?


Right, that's what I meant. The frequencies in all 5 channels going to the amplifier section of your Yamaha receiver start to roll off at 80 Hz (it's not a sudden cutoff), and they get sent to the subwoofer's amplifier, leaving your Yamaha's amplifier to handle everything else. I'm not familiar with your specific equipment, and also I don't know how loudly you play your system, what kind of music you listen to, or the size and acoustics of your listening room. All of those things, in addition to the electrical characteristics of your speakers, play a role in whether your receiver has enough power to do the job.

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post #1804 of 18822 Old 11-24-2007, 07:58 PM
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Anyone with the HTM7 center channel have it inside a cabinet? I plan on getting this as my center channel (with the 703's) but the center channel must fit inside a cabinet. Any thoughts or feedback?
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post #1805 of 18822 Old 11-24-2007, 08:07 PM
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you should be able to compensate for it. i tried moving my towers closer to walls, putting stuff infront of them, and the autosetup on my receiver did a great job of adjusting it...no real difference was noticed. I don't think people need to be as picky with movies as they do with music (And even then..really...an inch to the left..big deal?) because once you get it to your liking you will be watching the visuals.

besides..if you have the HTM7 moved right to the edge of the cabinet, it shouldn't reflect off anything.

-----------------------------------
also, if any prospective 704 buyers are interested: i just listened to my 704's with transformers HD-DVD running PCM downmix as well as with bitstreme. Sound was fantastic, dialogue was perfectly centered even without the center channel. Where it was lacking was for bass effects (duh..get a subwoofer) and the dialogue was a bit too quiet (which is where the center channel speaker would have helped out..or crank up the dialogue enhancer on ur reciever).
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post #1806 of 18822 Old 11-24-2007, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckerm View Post

Anyone with the HTM7 center channel have it inside a cabinet? I plan on getting this as my center channel (with the 703's) but the center channel must fit inside a cabinet. Any thoughts or feedback?

I have the HTM7 along with the 703's I don't have it in a cabinet but I would urge you to audition other B&W center channel speakers. I have not been pleased with the sound. I have B&W for all speakers except sub and with the exception of the HTM7 they sound fantastic. The HTM7 to me does not produce natural sounding dialog. The dialog sounds muddy. I like cyrstal clear sound and this speaker just does not reproduce this natural clean sound.
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post #1807 of 18822 Old 11-24-2007, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckerm View Post

Anyone with the HTM7 center channel have it inside a cabinet? I plan on getting this as my center channel (with the 703's) but the center channel must fit inside a cabinet. Any thoughts or feedback?

I have it in a Salamander triple 20 console. It fits in the middle section width wise perfectly. It's a little low. I have the shelf adjusted to fit a dvr below it.

Phil Tomaskovic
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post #1808 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 03:31 AM
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I was wondering if anyone has compared the older Natilus 805 to the new 805S?

If so, how different are they? What's the biggest difference in sounds? Bass? highs? imagine?

Any help is appreciated!

Thnx

Pioneer Elite Kuro 111FD, Elite BDP-05FD, Elite 72TXV, B&W 805/XTC/M1.
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post #1809 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th8ter View Post

I have the HTM7 along with the 703's I don't have it in a cabinet but I would urge you to audition other B&W center channel speakers. I have not been pleased with the sound. I have B&W for all speakers except sub and with the exception of the HTM7 they sound fantastic. The HTM7 to me does not produce natural sounding dialog. The dialog sounds muddy. I like cyrstal clear sound and this speaker just does not reproduce this natural clean sound.

Have you tried shifting placement, checking the settings at the amp, etc. I also have it and havent seen any such problems, it works fine together with DS7/685 surrounds. The problem with it i have is that its really too small to go together with the 703 i use as fronts. I would love to have something like a "HTM 7s" or something with the 703 configuration of elements alike the HTM3s is to the 803s/804s.
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post #1810 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th8ter View Post

I have the HTM7 along with the 703's I don't have it in a cabinet but I would urge you to audition other B&W center channel speakers. I have not been pleased with the sound. I have B&W for all speakers except sub and with the exception of the HTM7 they sound fantastic. The HTM7 to me does not produce natural sounding dialog. The dialog sounds muddy. I like cyrstal clear sound and this speaker just does not reproduce this natural clean sound.

have you tried the HTM4S?
it should be the same technologies as the HTM7 but..u kno...bigger.

the HTM3 and such all have FST so they would also match with your 703's..but not as much with 704's
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post #1811 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

I was wondering if anyone has compared the older Natilus 805 to the new 805S?

If so, how different are they? What's the biggest difference in sounds? Bass? highs? imagine?

Any help is appreciated!

Thnx

Yes, I owned the N805 and moved to 804s. Out of curiousity, I A/B'd against the 805s. In my opinion, there was not enough of a difference to warrant the price difference ($1200 used/$1600 discounted dealer old stock vs. 2500$ new). The difference was subtle and was mainly in the low treble. The difference could have easily been the room.

If given the choice between 1200$ Used mint N805 vs 805s > $1800, I would go for the n805 and use the extra money on a fantastic subwoofer, or room treatments.
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post #1812 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 11:13 AM
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does anyone have any pics or specs/info on the B&W Matrix HTM center channel?

Its a previous gen model I think so not one of the newer ones. I need to find out more about it so i can see whether or not to pull the trigger on the used on for sale locally.
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post #1813 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Tomaskovic View Post

I have it in a Salamander triple 20 console. It fits in the middle section width wise perfectly. It's a little low. I have the shelf adjusted to fit a dvr below it.

That's exactly the cabinet this is going in. Have you experienced the same issue that th8ter posted above? I am definetly into the 703s for mains, and this center seemed to fit the bill size wise.
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post #1814 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Yes, I owned the N805 and moved to 804s. Out of curiousity, I A/B'd against the 805s. In my opinion, there was not enough of a difference to warrant the price difference ($1200 used/$1600 discounted dealer old stock vs. 2500$ new). The difference was subtle and was mainly in the low treble. The difference could have easily been the room.

If given the choice between 1200$ Used mint N805 vs 805s > $1800, I would go for the n805 and use the extra money on a fantastic subwoofer, or room treatments.

Thanks man... appreciate your feedback.

I did exactly the same, got myself some old stock N805 and brought it home and haven't been happy with it. Not that it's not good, it just doesn't sound good for the moeny (or my expectation), so thought maybe I should go with 805S instead?!

I got really bad room dyamincs, #1 issue, and secondly, my listening is to Electronic, Rock mostly and from what I've read, it looks like B&W is not great for that style of music and either have to go to a different brand or different B&W to make it work better.

The XT series highs I think were a bit better for Electronic music, although gotto mate it with a nice sub to compensate for bass...

Any suggestions for a better pair for electronic music?

Thnx

Pioneer Elite Kuro 111FD, Elite BDP-05FD, Elite 72TXV, B&W 805/XTC/M1.
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post #1815 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Any suggestions for a better pair for electronic music?

Thnx

Cerwin Vega?

jk :-)
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post #1816 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

Thanks man... appreciate your feedback.

I did exactly the same, got myself some old stock N805 and brought it home and haven't been happy with it. Not that it's not good, it just doesn't sound good for the moeny (or my expectation), so thought maybe I should go with 805S instead?!

I got really bad room dyamincs, #1 issue, and secondly, my listening is to Electronic, Rock mostly and from what I've read, it looks like B&W is not great for that style of music and either have to go to a different brand or different B&W to make it work better.

The XT series highs I think were a bit better for Electronic music, although gotto mate it with a nice sub to compensate for bass...

Any suggestions for a better pair for electronic music?

Thnx

In my rooms, the N805 excelled at all types of music that I threw at it. I listen to Classical, Jazz, Japanese Rock, JPOP, Trance, House. This is of course with my ACI subwoofer. The only music it didn't excel at was pipe organ music because the mid-woofer would undergo overexcursion, I fixed that problem by getting the 804s which is a 3-way setup.

If your room isn't acoustically ok, then you are pretty screwed.

Granted, I don't listen at volumes greater than 104dB peak. Rock concert levels are 110dB+. If you want that, then just get some very sensitive professional speakers like Mackie.
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post #1817 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphasia View Post

Have you tried shifting placement, checking the settings at the amp, etc. I also have it and havent seen any such problems, it works fine together with DS7/685 surrounds. The problem with it i have is that its really too small to go together with the 703 i use as fronts. I would love to have something like a "HTM 7s" or something with the 703 configuration of elements alike the HTM3s is to the 803s/804s.

I've had a similar experience with my 703's/HTM7. Particularly at low volume levels, the dialog is a little muddy. I haven't played with position too much, but it seems to me B&W ought to sell an FST-equipped center to match the 703's. The HTM4 is no doubt very good, but rather pricey.

On the other hand, the HTM61's look pretty promising, for $600US msrp. I haven't heard them, but at least they have comparable drivers,so you might expect them to match reasonable well with the 703's.

In the meantime, I'll just crank them up a bit.

-Reid
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post #1818 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 10:28 PM
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I'm a new AVS Member and joining the B&W Club with the following acquisition which we're installing this week;

Fronts: 604S3
Center:LCR600S3
Sub: ASW700
Integra DTR 7.8

I'm looking to round out the installation with the rears and trying to decide between the LM-1 and the new DS3s. I'm leaning towards wall mounts as I have furniture constraints. My HT room is 20 X 14 with a 12 ft ceiling. I'd appreciate any guidance you all could provide on a well balanced selection.

Thanks for helping out a new guy as I've been away from the high end audio scene for more than a few decades.

Thanks again,
TJ

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post #1819 of 18822 Old 11-25-2007, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

In my rooms, the N805 excelled at all types of music that I threw at it. I listen to Classical, Jazz, Japanese Rock, JPOP, Trance, House. This is of course with my ACI subwoofer. The only music it didn't excel at was pipe organ music because the mid-woofer would undergo overexcursion, I fixed that problem by getting the 804s which is a 3-way setup.

If your room isn't acoustically ok, then you are pretty screwed.

Granted, I don't listen at volumes greater than 104dB peak. Rock concert levels are 110dB+. If you want that, then just get some very sensitive professional speakers like Mackie.

Interesting... I live in a condo, so can't really turn it up that high... that seems to be the issue. The 805 sounds great, when u crank it up, but it's not very good at all, when volume levels are low.

I do NOT have a sub yet, could that be the reason?

So, what would be a good set of speakers at low volumes?

Thnx

Pioneer Elite Kuro 111FD, Elite BDP-05FD, Elite 72TXV, B&W 805/XTC/M1.
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post #1820 of 18822 Old 11-26-2007, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Anyone with the HTM7 center channel have it inside a cabinet? I plan on getting this as my center channel (with the 703's) but the center channel must fit inside a cabinet. Any thoughts or feedback?

You could try the HTM61. it might be better.

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #1821 of 18822 Old 11-26-2007, 07:06 AM
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anyone know what US MSRP's on the B&W centers are?
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post #1822 of 18822 Old 11-26-2007, 05:24 PM
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hometheaterstore.com has them listed
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post #1823 of 18822 Old 11-26-2007, 08:47 PM
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so has anyone bought a set of CT8's?
i couldn't even find a review on any of the components...either they're brand new, or they're so over the top that no one has bothered with them...which I find strange since i'm sure that in the audiophile world, there's people with 100,000$ mcintosh towers in their rooms
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post #1824 of 18822 Old 11-26-2007, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khanmotorsport View Post

so has anyone bought a set of CT8's?
i couldn't even find a review on any of the components...either they're brand new, or they're so over the top that no one has bothered with them...

yeah, they are supposedly for custom-installations- ie. in-wall, or in-cabinet, or in-sunken-wall situations. I think they are very impressive, they feature all the latest B&W technology and more. But very (B&W) expensive.
http://www.audioholics.com/news/trad...s-loudspeakers
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post #1825 of 18822 Old 11-27-2007, 08:31 AM
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I have a deal with a local dealer to trade in my speakers within one year and get full purchase price applied to new speakers. Currently I have 704s which I love and wonder if it's worth moving up to 703s for around $800. I have the HTM7 center along with a Yamaha Rv-x1700. I was also considering some Totems which are heavily discounted. Or should I jump to the lower costing end of the 800 series. I assume I'd need to upgrade my center channel if I do that. Thoughts?
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post #1826 of 18822 Old 11-27-2007, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpotto View Post

I have a deal with a local dealer to trade in my speakers within one year and get full purchase price applied to new speakers. Currently I have 704s which I love and wonder if it's worth moving up to 703s for around $800. I have the HTM7 center along with a Yamaha Rv-x1700. I was also considering some Totems which are heavily discounted. Or should I jump to the lower costing end of the 800 series. I assume I'd need to upgrade my center channel if I do that. Thoughts?

In my opinion there is a big difference between the 704 & 703, with the 703 having a much clearer midrange and a bigger presentation. The 703 is also more forward which may not appeal to all. The bass is a bit deeper on the 703 (though it's not earthshaking) but is very tight and well controlled.

In side by side listening I much preferred the 703 to both the 704 and the CM7. In fact, I thought the 703 was a big step above the 704 and a pretty small step below the 804S. Obviously this is my opinion and I know not everyone shares it so you ought to listen for yourself.

One problem is that the HTM7 doesn't match very well with the 703, so you might be looking to upgrade your center channel even with that upgrade. If you are going to upgrade to the 800 series, a center channel upgrade is essential.
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post #1827 of 18822 Old 11-27-2007, 12:34 PM
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What center will work with the 703s and how much does it go for?
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post #1828 of 18822 Old 11-27-2007, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpotto View Post

What center will work with the 703s and how much does it go for?

Unfortunately, there really isn't a center designed specifically with this speaker in mind

I'm sure the HTM3S (from the 800 series) would sound amazing with the 703s, but it's a bit pricey ($2800 MSRP).

The one center that I wonder about is the HTM61. It does have an FST midrange so it might match OK. It's also much cheaper ($650.00 MSRP).

I'd also consider just going with a 705 instead of a dedicated center. It won't be a perfect match, but I bet it works better than the HTM7.

I own 703s, but I don't have this issue as they are in a dedicated 2 channel system.
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post #1829 of 18822 Old 11-27-2007, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckerm View Post

That's exactly the cabinet this is going in. Have you experienced the same issue that th8ter posted above? I am definitely into the 703s for mains, and this center seemed to fit the bill size wise.

It sounds fine to me, but my hearing may not be as sensitive as others who can hear (subtle) differences betweens speakers. Main thing is I have the HTM7 lined up with the front of the cabinet so sound doesn't hit any of the inside. If you are placing the center on the bottom most shelf, you may want to put some type of feet under the front 2 corners so the sound is pointing up vs parallel to the floor. I have another shelf in mine (dvr is on the bottom), but the height of the htm7 limits raising it only about 4 inches from the bottom shelf.

Phil Tomaskovic
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post #1830 of 18822 Old 11-27-2007, 06:27 PM
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has anyone tried bi-amping their speakers using the rear surround outputs on an Onkyo?
is it worth the effort? (i think the rears are another 50wpc or 100wpc)
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