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post #18661 of 20013 Old 06-18-2014, 09:00 PM
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Of course. The quote of the previous post was unintentional. Sorry about that.

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
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post #18662 of 20013 Old 06-18-2014, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post
Maybe Patrick could finally she'd some light on why B&W recommends biwiring in the owners manual.

Bill
This is from the manual. It says "can", but doesn't specially recommend it or say it "will" improve sound. I think they're probably trying to not alienate audiophiles who believe this stuff:

Note: Bi-wiring separates the signal paths to each
section of the speaker and can improve both stereo
imaging and detail resolution. It also enables the
use of different types of cable for each frequency
band.
Bi-amplification goes a stage further and involves the
use of two independent power amplifier channels for
each speaker. This is not the same as a fully “active”
drive as the speaker's internal passive crossover is
still used. If bi-amplification is employed, ensure that
each amplifier channel has the same gain, otherwise
the speaker’s tonal balance will be distorted.
Check also the absolute polarity of the amplifiers.
Some amplifiers invert the signal, and their use in
combination with non-inverting types will result in a
distorted frequency response. If you have a mixture
of inverting and non-inverting amplifiers, reverse the
polarity of the speaker connections from the inverting
amplifier.
Bear in mind that, even though midrange and, even
more so, tweeter drivers can (and only need to)
handle less continuous power than bass drivers, the
amplifier feeding them needs to have an adequate
voltage swing in order to supply the short-term
high-frequency peaks in music without distortion. A
high voltage capability implies high power, so it is not
particularly desirable to have a lower powered
amplifier feeding the midrange and tweeter than is
used for bass drivers.
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post #18663 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
So I am curious if I should Bi-Wire these or just keep the bridge that came with them since I am not using any additional amps. I purchased Audioquest X2 speaker cable and have that running from my receiver to these two front speakers (B&W 684 S1s). What is the consensus for those that have Bi-wired or haven't, or those who know about it in detail regarding whether these speakers will sound even better with the bi-wiring or not.
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Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post
Biamping could be beneficial but biwiring would offer no improvement.
Not Bi-Wiring or Bi-Amping won't make any difference just pressure from Dealers to sell more expensive cables and amplifiers Unless you have active crossover bi-amping won't do anything!
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post #18664 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 11:06 AM
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Bi-amp or Bi-wired will not make it worse either, try it see if you like it.
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post #18665 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 12:19 PM
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Question Another request for help/opinion(s) (Re: used 805N and possible surround setup)

Looking at a used pair of 805N w/stands for $2200 (seller indicates not "set" on price) for 2.0 audio on zone 2 of an Anthem 710. Plan to get a separate amp (hopefully soon) to drive the zone 2 speakers.

My question is - what is a fair price for a pair of these? In good shape and no issues.
What is the difference (construction wise and sound wise) between the Nautilus and other series (esp. Diamond)?

I also have a chance at getting a pair of DM601 and a CC6 for $250. Good price? Good match to the 805N? If so, may go 5.1 vice 2.0 in this room. (Long term plan is to do so anyhow, just was not planning to do for awhile.)

Thanks for your input.
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post #18666 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 01:02 PM
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Actually in the 803n owners manual it reads

"Bi-wiring is the preferred method of connection and involves the use of separate cables from the amplifier to each pair of terminals. The separation of the signal paths improves the resolution of low- level detail and allows the user to optimise the type of cable to the frequency range of use."

But, again, I was asking Patrick.

I am curious for the manufacturers point of view.

Bill
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post #18667 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post
Actually in the 803n owners manual it reads

"Bi-wiring is the preferred method of connection and involves the use of separate cables from the amplifier to each pair of terminals. The separation of the signal paths improves the resolution of low- level detail and allows the user to optimise the type of cable to the frequency range of use."

But, again, I was asking Patrick.

I am curious for the manufacturers point of view.

Bill
I'm curious, too. I'll be wearing hip boots.
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post #18668 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
That seems to be the majority consensus. I've tried to do some research into this, even getting into the physics of it at some points. As a formal electrical engineering student turned IT guy, I have to agree with you. I do not see how it is scientifically possible that running separate speaker cable from the same receiver output to two different inputs is any different than basically running one speaker cable from the receiver output to both inputs. If anything, I would argue the latter way would provide better sound due to a lower chance of signal interference or degradation as a result of a decreased amount of speaker cable being run all together.

That being said, the engineer in me wants to try it anyways :-)
Please do then let us know what you think! Do you have a EE degree?
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post #18669 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post
Actually in the 803n owners manual it reads "Bi-wiring is the preferred method of connection and involves the use of separate cables from the amplifier to each pair of terminals. The separation of the signal paths improves the resolution of low- level detail and allows the user to optimise the type of cable to the frequency range of use." But, again, I was asking Patrick. I am curious for the manufacturers point of view. Bill
You might not get a response online this is too touchy! Dealers want that features to sell more cables ($$$$$) and additional amplification ($$$$$$$$$$$$)
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post #18670 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
You might not get a response online this is too touchy! Dealers want that features to sell more cables ($$$$$) and additional amplification ($$$$$$$$$$$$)
Yep, and speaker manufacturers will supply the extra binding posts just because they don't want to limit their customer base. I'm sure it's purely market driven.
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post #18671 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
Yep, and speaker manufacturers will supply the extra binding posts just because they don't want to limit their customer base. I'm sure it's purely market driven.
If you open up a 100k speaker the wires inside are probably 1/10th or even 1/100th as thick as the silly wires that people plug into the other end of the terminal.

They did a double blind test, including some acoustic measurements, with coat hanger wires that proved that cables, even bare, unshielded ones, make virtually no difference in the final sound.

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post #18672 of 20013 Old 06-19-2014, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chise View Post
Bi-amp or Bi-wired will not make it worse either, try it see if you like it.
The only thing this person would discern is a placebo effect, and his wallet feeling eerily lighter.

Give your money to a children's charity instead of throwing it down the drain, at least it would achieve something useful.
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post #18673 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
The only thing this person would discern is a placebo effect, and his wallet feeling eerily lighter.

Give your money to a children's charity instead of throwing it down the drain, at least it would achieve something useful.
You really sound stupid and look at all the gear you brought over years now look in the mirror.
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post #18674 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 10:13 AM
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Saying biwiring doesn't give results is not stupid, just a different opinion than yours, and one shared by the majority here to be honest.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
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post #18675 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 10:26 AM
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If a person desires to sate his bi-amp/bi-wire curiosity, I say just let him try it.

Most of us have tried it at one point.
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post #18676 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
If a person desires to sate his bi-amp/bi-wire curiosity, I say just let him try it. Most of us have tried it at one point.
Experimentation just try if you like it great if not then at least I are not wondering anymore. Just money and time

Just don't expect miracles
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post #18677 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 12:10 PM
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Experimentation just try if you like it great if not then at least I are not wondering anymore. Just money and time

Just don't expect miracles
Just don't expect electrons to spark from the wires and create a mellifluous atmosphere?

No. But try it anyway. How else would people learn, right?
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post #18678 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post
If a person desires to sate his bi-amp/bi-wire curiosity, I say just let him try it.

Most of us have tried it at one point.
Thank you, some people thinks it cost a lot money to make or buy your own speaker wire and plugs.
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post #18679 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 03:10 PM
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Hi Bill,

The current note on bi-wiring in manuals is as follows: "Bi-wiring separates the signal paths to each section of the speaker and can improve both stereo imaging and detail resolution. It also enables the use of different types of cable for each frequency band."

I've not spoken to any of the engineering staff regarding their opinions on the topic. My own experience in general (multiple speaker brands) is that I've not found the practice to be advantageous, and in some instances have found it to be deleterious. I've used four separate cables per speaker with 800 Diamonds, and I've used cables with four conductors that terminate to a single + and - on the amp end, and four conductors on the speaker end. Was there any sonic benefit that I could attribute to one method or another? No.

In the long list of things to pay attention to in order to improve performance in your particular system, I would not mark this as a priority. Priorities? I'd use the spikes if you are able, and I would certainly make sure your speakers are plumb, level and square with the floor (not rocking back and forth on an improperly adjusted spike.) This is actually something which will give you an immediate and noticeable improvement in performance.

Regards,

Patrick


Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post
Actually in the 803n owners manual it reads

"Bi-wiring is the preferred method of connection and involves the use of separate cables from the amplifier to each pair of terminals. The separation of the signal paths improves the resolution of low- level detail and allows the user to optimise the type of cable to the frequency range of use."

But, again, I was asking Patrick.

I am curious for the manufacturers point of view.

Bill
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post #18680 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Hi Bill,

The current note on bi-wiring in manuals is as follows: "Bi-wiring separates the signal paths to each section of the speaker and can improve both stereo imaging and detail resolution. It also enables the use of different types of cable for each frequency band."

I've not spoken to any of the engineering staff regarding their opinions on the topic. My own experience in general (multiple speaker brands) is that I've not found the practice to be advantageous, and in some instances have found it to be deleterious. I've used four separate cables per speaker with 800 Diamonds, and I've used cables with four conductors that terminate to a single + and - on the amp end, and four conductors on the speaker end. Was there any sonic benefit that I could attribute to one method or another? No.

In the long list of things to pay attention to in order to improve performance in your particular system, I would not mark this as a priority. Priorities? I'd use the spikes if you are able, and I would certainly make sure your speakers are plumb, level and square with the floor (not rocking back and forth on an improperly adjusted spike.) This is actually something which will give you an immediate and noticeable improvement in performance.

Regards,

Patrick
Thank you Patrick,

Installing the spikes on the 800D2 are quite difficult also how do you prop the speaker back up in the position you want! I would need to hire Piano movers to lift the beasts

Since, my floor is marble I will keep them on the wheel!
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post #18681 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 08:15 PM
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Thank you Patrick for the response...

Wse... if you do not want to use the spikes send them to me. I can make use of them.


Bill
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post #18682 of 20013 Old 06-20-2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Hi Bill,

The current note on bi-wiring in manuals is as follows: "Bi-wiring separates the signal paths to each section of the speaker and can improve both stereo imaging and detail resolution. It also enables the use of different types of cable for each frequency band."

I've not spoken to any of the engineering staff regarding their opinions on the topic. My own experience in general (multiple speaker brands) is that I've not found the practice to be advantageous, and in some instances have found it to be deleterious. I've used four separate cables per speaker with 800 Diamonds, and I've used cables with four conductors that terminate to a single + and - on the amp end, and four conductors on the speaker end. Was there any sonic benefit that I could attribute to one method or another? No.

In the long list of things to pay attention to in order to improve performance in your particular system, I would not mark this as a priority. Priorities? I'd use the spikes if you are able, and I would certainly make sure your speakers are plumb, level and square with the floor (not rocking back and forth on an improperly adjusted spike.) This is actually something which will give you an immediate and noticeable improvement in performance.

Regards,

Patrick
Thanks, Patrick. Your frank response differs from B&W's official party line, and I believe you. I have a question regarding the spikes, though. Because the cabinet is so rigid and non resonant, why are spikes better than the casters? As the cabinets do not vibrate in the slightest, and the plinth presumably offers further isolation, it's difficult to imagine the spikes producing any improvement in sound quality. Providing, of course, your floor is flat, your speakers don't rock, etc. Doesn't make much sense to me, and I plan to keep my spikes in the box. They look like a PITA to install, and make moving these beasts very difficult.
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post #18683 of 20013 Old 06-21-2014, 06:33 AM
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Hi WSE,

On a delicate surface, I use end of the spike that terminates in a rubber foot. Not quite as good as a spike, but a much better solution than the caster. Get a friend to help you stand them upright after installing the spike kit. Not terribly difficult.

Patrick


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Thank you Patrick,

Installing the spikes on the 800D2 are quite difficult also how do you prop the speaker back up in the position you want! I would need to hire Piano movers to lift the beasts

Since, my floor is marble I will keep them on the wheel!
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post #18684 of 20013 Old 06-21-2014, 06:51 AM
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Hi Jon,

Actually, our positions are not inconsistent as "can improve" does not equal "will improve." Frankly, I'd love the engineering staff to show me a way of improving performance. My interactions with a few of them so far reveals that they are no-nonsense folks who don't believe in flying spaghetti monsters if you catch my drift.

Mounting and adjusting the spikes is a 30 minute endeavor. Bit of a pain with big upside potential. I've yet to find a level floor (absolutely, or between channels) in any setting where I've setup speakers. Without the speakers plumb and level, you cannot get a coherent wave launch and stereo only works properly when this can be achieved. Worth the effort.

Best,

Patrick


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Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
Thanks, Patrick. Your frank response differs from B&W's official party line, and I believe you. I have a question regarding the spikes, though. Because the cabinet is so rigid and non resonant, why are spikes better than the casters? As the cabinets do not vibrate in the slightest, and the plinth presumably offers further isolation, it's difficult to imagine the spikes producing any improvement in sound quality. Providing, of course, your floor is flat, your speakers don't rock, etc. Doesn't make much sense to me, and I plan to keep my spikes in the box. They look like a PITA to install, and make moving these beasts very difficult.

Last edited by Patrick Butler; 06-21-2014 at 07:05 AM.
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post #18685 of 20013 Old 06-21-2014, 08:26 AM
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Hi WSE, On a delicate surface, I use end of the spike that terminates in a rubber foot. Not quite as good as a spike, but a much better solution than the caster. Get a friend to help you stand them upright after installing the spike kit. Not terribly difficult. Patrick
Hello Patrick,

So you are saying there is a definite improvement in sound with the spikes? Can you explain what is the difference?
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post #18686 of 20013 Old 06-21-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Hi Jon,

Actually, our positions are not inconsistent as "can improve" does not equal "will improve." Frankly, I'd love the engineering staff to show me a way of improving performance. My interactions with a few of them so far reveals that they are no-nonsense folks who don't believe in flying spaghetti monsters if you catch my drift.

Mounting and adjusting the spikes is a 30 minute endeavor. Bit of a pain with big upside potential. I've yet to find a level floor (absolutely, or between channels) in any setting where I've setup speakers. Without the speakers plumb and level, you cannot get a coherent wave launch and stereo only works properly when this can be achieved. Worth the effort.

Best,

Patrick
I'd like to hear what the engineering staff says about biwiring and passive biamping as well. I'm pretty sure they didn't write the Owner's Manual. I'm sure we'll not hear from them any time soon on that topic, as they're probably busy doing engineering stuff and leave marketing to others. If asked their opinion on the controversial statements in the manual, they'd probably say, "Whatever...".

One would think that a properly poured concrete slab would be quite level in the absence of settling. Installing the spikes may be worth the effort after determining the optimum speaker position. Seems like you'd also need to shim the casters so that the speakers are level and plumb to find the exact spot, though. That's a down-the-road project for me, as I have more pressing priorities in my room. The spikes are very nicely made, though.
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post #18687 of 20013 Old 06-21-2014, 10:27 AM
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There is absolutely an improvement with the spikes (with the sharp or the rubber end.) The casters are only supplied to make it easy to wheel the speakers into place, but are not intended to be a permanent solution. They are a better mechanical interface with the floor than the casters. 2. They allow for the kind of adjustments that are both necessary and impossible with casters.

What kind of sonic changes can you expect to hear? The noise floor drops, soundstage becomes more three dimensional because you can properly align left and right channels, images achieve better focus and stability, improved leading edge attack, better bass slam, etc. Nothing trivial.

Patrick




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Hello Patrick,

So you are saying there is a definite improvement in sound with the spikes? Can you explain what is the difference?
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post #18688 of 20013 Old 06-21-2014, 12:44 PM
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Hi Patrick, earlier in the thread you mentioned custom colors and that B&W does offer the option however in doing so there is a significant wait time. Does B&W also offer custom veneers?

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post #18689 of 20013 Old 06-21-2014, 02:08 PM
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Hi Rod,

I've never heard of any custom veneers offered.

Best,

Patrick


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Hi Patrick, earlier in the thread you mentioned custom colors and that B&W does offer the option however in doing so there is a significant wait time. Does B&W also offer custom veneers?
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post #18690 of 20013 Old 06-22-2014, 11:29 AM
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Thanks

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