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post #18721 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 12:25 PM
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Let me see 7 x 150 lbs I will need back surgery after that!
I have an abhorrence for heavy objects.
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post #18722 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 01:56 PM
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Hi Jon,

In order to work properly, you don't want a loudspeaker cabinet to move in any direction. The whole point of the casters is ease of movement. My observation is that spikes sound better than casters. As it happens, my observation is in agreement with a number of other people who's opinions matter to me. My untested hypothesis? Even though the cabinets are massive, drivers create lateral forces that are sufficient to shift the cabinet forward and aft during playback. If you'd like to study the matter more in depth- have at it.

Stereo works because your ear can perceive where things are in recorded space through a combination of interaural time differences, spectral shifts and interaural level differences. Speakers work by focusing multiple drivers elements in a point in space. A sound projector if you will. In order for speakers to do this coherently, they must be precisely aligned. If not, the system (both speakers) is not coherent. Your ears are very sensitive to time (phase) in particular, and can perceive interaural time differences as little as 6-10 microseconds depending on which literature you are reading. Small differences in height between speakers or whether or not they are exactly plumb are absolutely audible.

Regarding the use of "flowery language", when we talk about what we hear, we're dealing with perception. The only way to talk about perception is to use a vocabulary that describes what we perceive. When we talk about the cherry flavors in wine, we don't say "i detect benzaldehyde." In like fashion, when we hear a loudspeaker enclosure resonating we say boxy. We don't say "it sounds like it has a high q resonance at 1500 cycles.

Regards,

Patrick

Good morning, Patrick,


Even at very high volumes, the cabinets for my 800D2's don't vibrate, much less move to and fro. My impressions are supported by the accelerometer testing in the Stereophile review. Atkinson, when looking for cabinet vibration, "found nothing". My point is that if the cabinet doesn't vibrate, whether one uses casters or spike doesn't matter. Your untested hypothesis is just as you say, and the measurements would say you're precisely incorrect. While I agree that distance is important, "mechanical coupling" of speakers to substrate makes no sense. Feel free to explain why you think it's critical.


The fact that others agree with you is irrelevant. This is one of those things that would be very difficult to subject to DBT, I presume that all of your evaluations (and those of others) were sighted. The only logical conclusion is that your tests are examples of confirmation bias.


Once again, flowery terms like "lowering the noise floor" and improving "bass slam" have become trite, much overused in subjective reviews. Indeed, it's hard to find any review that doesn't include one or even both of these terms. They lack any precise definition and I've never seen any measurements to back up such claims. Help me out here. Define noise floor and explain how spikes lower it. If you can do that, we can move on to "bass slam", which will be much harder to substantiate. Thanks
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post #18723 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 02:12 PM
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Well if anyone is up to help putting spikes on I am all willing to try, but my back will not allow me to lift these beasts. They sound great to me as is But beeing a scientist I like to experiment
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post #18724 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 03:11 PM
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Hi Jon,

You are free to use your spikes, or not. As you can tell by looking at them, they were not designed as an afterthought and our marketing department doesn't design products. I've already explained what they do regarding the precise alignment of your speakers.

I'll give you some free advice. Start experimenting. There are plenty of observations in the world looking for an explanation. That's the basis for good science. However, observations casually discarded as confirmation bias unless accompanied by an explanation, is at best pseudo science and at worse a path to nowhere.

Regards,

Patrick



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Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
Good morning, Patrick,


Even at very high volumes, the cabinets for my 800D2's don't vibrate, much less move to and fro. My impressions are supported by the accelerometer testing in the Stereophile review. Atkinson, when looking for cabinet vibration, "found nothing". My point is that if the cabinet doesn't vibrate, whether one uses casters or spike doesn't matter. Your untested hypothesis is just as you say, and the measurements would say you're precisely incorrect. While I agree that distance is important, "mechanical coupling" of speakers to substrate makes no sense. Feel free to explain why you think it's critical.


The fact that others agree with you is irrelevant. This is one of those things that would be very difficult to subject to DBT, I presume that all of your evaluations (and those of others) were sighted. The only logical conclusion is that your tests are examples of confirmation bias.


Once again, flowery terms like "lowering the noise floor" and improving "bass slam" have become trite, much overused in subjective reviews. Indeed, it's hard to find any review that doesn't include one or even both of these terms. They lack any precise definition and I've never seen any measurements to back up such claims. Help me out here. Define noise floor and explain how spikes lower it. If you can do that, we can move on to "bass slam", which will be much harder to substantiate. Thanks
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post #18725 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 04:20 PM
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So will B&W have ATMOS enabled speakers like Pioneer Electronics CEA Line Show Activities

See their presentation to happen on Wednesday?

Location: Metropolitan Pavilion, 125 W. 18th Street, NY, NY
Press Conference, Wednesday, June 25 at 11:45 a.m. EDT
Booth Exhibit, Booth #44 , Wednesday, June 25 (11 a.m. – 7 p.m.) and Thursday, June 26 (9 a.m. – 3 p.m.)

Home Technology Demonstrations, Booth #5
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post #18726 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
So will B&W have ATMOS enabled speakers like Pioneer Electronics CEA Line Show Activities

See their presentation to happen on Wednesday?

Location: Metropolitan Pavilion, 125 W. 18th Street, NY, NY
Press Conference, Wednesday, June 25 at 11:45 a.m. EDT
Booth Exhibit, Booth #44 , Wednesday, June 25 (11 a.m. – 7 p.m.) and Thursday, June 26 (9 a.m. – 3 p.m.)

Home Technology Demonstrations, Booth #5
I don't see any reference to a show on the Metropolitan Pavilion's website...
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post #18727 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 06:04 PM
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Two reasons:

1) The B&W speakers are better.
2) You really want your front 3 channels left center right to match each other as closely as possible. When someone is talking on the screen and they walk from left to right across the screen you will hear there voice change when moving from left to center to right if you use speakers from different brands that do not match each other.

I'd leave the center hooked up. Turn it off on the recievier, watch a movie scene. Turn the center channel back on, watch the same scene. Do it a couple times with different scenes you care about... then choose.
I've had quite the afternoon lol. After heading to home depot for some speaker cable/wire running stuff I got home to set it up. Once I had the shelves up, speakers on them, and wire run to the receiver - I realized the VSX-522k is a 5.1 system. Duhhh.

So - I went out and purchased a new receiver. I went with a Pioneer VSX-44 Elite. Everything is setup now and after playing with settings, I determined the system sounds by far the best with the B&W set as Large, the center channel in the mix, and the it, plus all the others set as smalls. I realized the Pioneer systems have the A. MCACC. After running that, it did the same and also it set Xover to 100Hz. The system sounds great just as the A. MCACC set everything. Only question I have it why it set the sub to -15? I changed that up to -7 and think the system sounds much better as a whole. Any idea why it would set Sub to -15?
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post #18728 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 06:16 PM
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So - I went out and purchased a new receiver. I went with a Pioneer VSX-44 Elite. Everything is setup now and after playing with settings, I determined the system sounds by far the best with the B&W set as Large, the center channel in the mix, and the it, plus all the others set as smalls. I realized the Pioneer systems have the A. MCACC. After running that, it did the same and also it set Xover to 100Hz. The system sounds great just as the A. MCACC set everything. Only question I have it why it set the sub to -15? I changed that up to -7 and think the system sounds much better as a whole. Any idea why it would set Sub to -15?
Wow, were you able to return the 522?

I'm glad your happy with the sound. I'm working on putting together a system with 683s up front and 684s for surrounds. I was really impressed with them when I auditioned them. I just need to wait for my basement construction to finish up.

I've never really had auto calibration work very well for subwoofer levels. I always have adjusted it afterwards. One thing you may want to consider is turning down the gain on you actual subwoofer and turning up the subwoofer level on your receiver. If you find the sleep wake circuitry on subwoofers doesn't work very well.

Last edited by Daniel Smith; 06-23-2014 at 06:20 PM.
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post #18729 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 06:21 PM
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Wow, were you able to return the 522?

I'm glad your happy with the sound. I'm working on putting together a system with 683s up front and 684s for surrounds. I was really impressed with them when I auditioned them. I just need to wait for my basement construction to finish up.
I've had the 522 for a while - but it isn't going to waste. My wife and I are buying a new home with a dedicated home theater. The setup we've been discussing will be for the theater. I'll likely buy another HTIB for the living room and use them with the 522k. I'll upgrade the rest of the theater speakers over time - hoping to complete the 684 setup.

Just watched a few scenes from Master and Commander and Iron Man - this is awesome. Looking for a 7.1 specific bluray to test with now.
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post #18730 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 06:27 PM
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Hi Jon,

You are free to use your spikes, or not. As you can tell by looking at them, they were not designed as an afterthought and our marketing department doesn't design products. I've already explained what they do regarding the precise alignment of your speakers.

I'll give you some free advice. Start experimenting. There are plenty of observations in the world looking for an explanation. That's the basis for good science. However, observations casually discarded as confirmation bias unless accompanied by an explanation, is at best pseudo science and at worse a path to nowhere.

Regards,

Patrick

Hi Patrick,


I said before that the spikes are very well made. Marketing didn't design them, just as they didn't design the superfluous extra set of binding posts, but I still see them as more marketing than science. I'll keep mine in the boxes where I can take a look at them every so often.


Good science means well designed experiments. Subjective impressions are notoriously unreliable and do not withstand the bright light of science. They should be discarded out of hand unless there is a rational explanation for the observed phenomena. If subjective observations seem to have a logical explanation, they should be scientifically verified. I'd be happy to participate in a DBT regarding the spikes vs casters issue. But given what I know about time coherence, dispersion, cabinet vibrations (or in this case, lack thereof), the effort involved in performing a DBT myself isn't worth my time or effort.


Believing in sighted reviews, which are pure rubbish, is a path to wasting time and money. Lots of money has changed hands in the world of high end audio based on unscientific articles, reviews, forum posts, etc. Not my cup of tea. Once again, I'll ask you to define "noise floor" and explain how spikes lower it. Please do not dodge this question, as doing so really impeaches your credibility. I'd guess that by "noise floor" one would mean the SPL at the MLP with the system powered up, either with no input to the preamp or during quiet passages? Those should be a measurable dB values. If you're correct, installing the spikes should yield a lower reading than with the casters in place. If your definition is different, please explain. If you cannot define the term for us in fairly simple language, I don't think you should make such statements. But that's just the scientist in me.
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post #18731 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 08:21 PM
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Ok, I admit it. It was the spikes that sold me on the Diamonds. I just couldn't resist. Those guys are marketing geniuses.
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post #18732 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 08:34 PM
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Ok, I admit it. It was the spikes that sold me on the Diamonds. I just couldn't resist. Those guys are marketing geniuses.
I completely agree, they're freaking awesome. I'll have to build a display case for them.
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post #18733 of 18908 Old 06-23-2014, 09:34 PM
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Hi Patrick,

I said before that the spikes are very well made. Marketing didn't design them, just as they didn't design the superfluous extra set of binding posts, but I still see them as more marketing than science. I'll keep mine in the boxes where I can take a look at them every so often.

Good science means well designed experiments. Subjective impressions are notoriously unreliable and do not withstand the bright light of science. They should be discarded out of hand unless there is a rational explanation for the observed phenomena. If subjective observations seem to have a logical explanation, they should be scientifically verified. I'd be happy to participate in a DBT regarding the spikes vs casters issue. But given what I know about time coherence, dispersion, cabinet vibrations (or in this case, lack thereof), the effort involved in performing a DBT myself isn't worth my time or effort.

Believing in sighted reviews, which are pure rubbish, is a path to wasting time and money. Lots of money has changed hands in the world of high end audio based on unscientific articles, reviews, forum posts, etc. Not my cup of tea. Once again, I'll ask you to define "noise floor" and explain how spikes lower it. Please do not dodge this question, as doing so really impeaches your credibility. I'd guess that by "noise floor" one would mean the SPL at the MLP with the system powered up, either with no input to the preamp or during quiet passages? Those should be a measurable dB values. If you're correct, installing the spikes should yield a lower reading than with the casters in place. If your definition is different, please explain. If you cannot define the term for us in fairly simple language, I don't think you should make such statements. But that's just the scientist in me.
Come on over we can conduct the experiments, Double Blind Randomized Placebo Controlled
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post #18734 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 07:04 AM
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Wow, were you able to return the 522?

I'm glad your happy with the sound. I'm working on putting together a system with 683s up front and 684s for surrounds. I was really impressed with them when I auditioned them. I just need to wait for my basement construction to finish up.

I've never really had auto calibration work very well for subwoofer levels. I always have adjusted it afterwards. One thing you may want to consider is turning down the gain on you actual subwoofer and turning up the subwoofer level on your receiver. If you find the sleep wake circuitry on subwoofers doesn't work very well.
Hey Daniel - need some more help if you're able. I did some testing with the opening scene/prologue of Thor: The Dark World because it has good solo dialog, mixed action dialog, and pure action. Here is what I found.

With the center off, the vocals seem balanced and loud enough to not be overpowered by the music/action in the scene. With the center on and balanced with the fronts at -5db (as per A. MCACC) the volume is too low and gets somewhat washed out by the music/action sound FX. If I turn the center up, say to 0.0db, the issue of the dialog being too low is fixed, but then what seems to happen is that the Surrounds and Rears get washed out (not able to hear the sounds coming from them), due to some of the action mix being ported to the center channel and its louder setting washing those out.

I would like to use the center, because the way I see it is that if I don't, because only something like 5% of the audio track comes out of the surrounds and rears, im basically running a stereo setup. The real culprit, and the reason the fronts and center are being set to -5db in the first place by A. MCACC is likely because my fronts are overpowering compared to the rest of the speaker set. My thought was to just increase the channel level of the surrounds and rears a bit to compensate for the louder center. Any reason that might not be a good idea? Anything else you can think of? I remember yesterday you said something about setting the B&Ws to Small and setting crossover to 150Hz for the whole system. Think I should give that a shot? Thanks for any help you can give in advance.
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post #18735 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 07:20 AM
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I've had the 522 for a while - but it isn't going to waste. My wife and I are buying a new home with a dedicated home theater. The setup we've been discussing will be for the theater. I'll likely buy another HTIB for the living room and use them with the 522k. I'll upgrade the rest of the theater speakers over time - hoping to complete the 684 setup.

Just watched a few scenes from Master and Commander and Iron Man - this is awesome. Looking for a 7.1 specific bluray to test with now.
Hello and good morning,

Sorry for missing all of the posts lately, I was away.

Since you are speaking about home theater... I wanted to chime in in my observations over the years. I personally got into the higher end speakers and systems because of theater.

I like pioneer products... I own an elite vsx- 92 thx that, to this day, runs my cable TV set in the living room.

The pioneer ran all my speakers, well, until I moved to the 800 series at that time it seemed that the tweeters were very loud and would hurt the ears.

I like the pioneer room correction and I could not tell a difference between it and audyssey of my processor that replaced it.

Over the years this is what I have found.

1. Center channel is the most important of the home theater... buy the best one you can that will match your left and right. Best yet buy the same as your left and right. ( one of the largest improvements)

2. Set the crossover between 60 and 100. Even with the best tower speakers a good sub can produce the lower frequencies better. Going over 100 and you have have a good chance of being able to locate where your sub is placed in your room. You don't want that. ( noticeable improvement)

3. Get a good sub. This is where the oooooooo and Ahhhhh come from when you have people over and / or when you are getting into a movie. Thus the movie experience. ( big improvement)

4. Going from my pioneer to a stand alone processor. Just for processing not for amplification. I found very little Improvement. ( doubtful improvement)

5. Stand alone amp for my front 3 speakers. This made a difference BUT it could have just been an improvement with my 800 series speakers that the pioneer could not drive that well. ( very noticeable)

6. Rca vs. Xlr... just go with what you have. ( no improvement)

7. Speaker cable ( no difference)

8. Hdmi cables go with a quality cable no need for the expensive ones. I use blujeans. ( no difference)

9. Going from 5.1 to 7.1 not much of a difference. But I am going to go back to 7 because I have the speakers sitting around. (Not much difference)

10. Room acoustic panels. I put diy panels at all of the First Reflective points and it works very well. It can be done pretty cheap it you are willing to diy. ( large improvement)

I am sure there are others suggestions but those are the ones that come to mind quickly.

again these are my personal findings.

Bill
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post #18736 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 07:24 AM
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Patrick,

I have a set of Nautilus 803s. They are currently resting in my media room directly on the carpet. Beneath the carpet is a heavy duty pad, and beneath that is a poured concrete basement subfloor. The speakers are plumb and level -- I have checked. They are currently on either side of my 120" screen with a decent amount of toe in (aimed directly at the right and left from row sitting postion -- there are three seats total).

My speakers did not come with spikes (the original owner had lost them). I hate to damage the carpet with the spikes -- will they really improve the sound stage (which is already exemplary)? And a huge improvement over my CDM-9NTs (which are for sale everyone).

I know it seems like you are being asked to repeat yourself -- but new spikes are $25 per speaker from your parts website. Will there really be a $50+ improvement in sound quality?

Thanks!

Hey babe ... at least I am not into motorcycles or boats ... that's real money.
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post #18737 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 07:30 AM
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Hello and good morning,

Sorry for missing all of the posts lately, I was away.

Since you are speaking about home theater... I wanted to chime in in my observations over the years. I personally got into the higher end speakers and systems because of theater.

I like pioneer products... I own an elite vsx- 92 thx that, to this day, runs my cable TV set in the living room.

The pioneer ran all my speakers, well, until I moved to the 800 series at that time it seemed that the tweeters were very loud and would hurt the ears.

I like the pioneer room correction and I could not tell a difference between it and audyssey of my processor that replaced it.

Over the years this is what I have found.

1. Center channel is the most important of the home theater... buy the best one you can that will match your left and right. Best yet buy the same as your left and right. ( one of the largest improvements)

2. Set the crossover between 60 and 100. Even with the best tower speakers a good sub can produce the lower frequencies better. Going over 100 and you have have a good chance of being able to locate where your sub is placed in your room. You don't want that. ( noticeable improvement)

3. Get a good sub. This is where the oooooooo and Ahhhhh come from when you have people over and / or when you are getting into a movie. Thus the movie experience. ( big improvement)

4. Going from my pioneer to a stand alone processor. Just for processing not for amplification. I found very little Improvement. ( doubtful improvement)

5. Stand alone amp for my front 3 speakers. This made a difference BUT it could have just been an improvement with my 800 series speakers that the pioneer could not drive that well. ( very noticeable)

6. Rca vs. Xlr... just go with what you have. ( no improvement)

7. Speaker cable ( no difference)

8. Hdmi cables go with a quality cable no need for the expensive ones. I use blujeans. ( no difference)

9. Going from 5.1 to 7.1 not much of a difference. But I am going to go back to 7 because I have the speakers sitting around. (Not much difference)

10. Room acoustic panels. I put diy panels at all of the First Reflective points and it works very well. It can be done pretty cheap it you are willing to diy. ( large improvement)

I am sure there are others suggestions but those are the ones that come to mind quickly.

again these are my personal findings.

Bill
Hey Bill Thanks for the info. Here are my thoughts on your points based on my experimenting so far.

1. Center channel is the most important of the home theater... buy the best one you can that will match your left and right. Best yet buy the same as your left and right. ( one of the largest improvements)
So my next priority will be to buy the B&W 684 center. Unfortunately it (HTM62) is about $450 - will work on this for my next HT purchase.

2. Set the crossover between 60 and 100. Even with the best tower speakers a good sub can produce the lower frequencies better. Going over 100 and you have have a good chance of being able to locate where your sub is placed in your room. You don't want that. ( noticeable improvement)
Currently set to 100Hz as per the A. MCACC on my Pioneer VSX-44

3. Get a good sub. This is where the oooooooo and Ahhhhh come from when you have people over and / or when you are getting into a movie. Thus the movie experience. ( big improvement)
Will be the purchase I make after the center channel purchase.

4. Going from my pioneer to a stand alone processor. Just for processing not for amplification. I found very little Improvement. ( doubtful improvement)
No plans on doing this as per your recommendation and my receiver's quality.

5. Stand alone amp for my front 3 speakers. This made a difference BUT it could have just been an improvement with my 800 series speakers that the pioneer could not drive that well. ( very noticeable)
No need in the size room I have.

Agree with 6,7,8.

9. Going from 5.1 to 7.1 not much of a difference. But I am going to go back to 7 because I have the speakers sitting around. (Not much difference)
Only point I will have to disagree on you with. I just setup my 7.1 last night, and every 7.1 enabled bluray I have has sounded noticeably better with the 7.1 Of course, this is subjective.


10. Room acoustic panels. I put diy panels at all of the First Reflective points and it works very well. It can be done pretty cheap it you are willing to diy. ( large improvement)
Will look into this once I get in my new house and setup a dedicated home theater. For now my HT is my living room.
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post #18738 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 08:55 AM
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Hey Bill Thanks for the info. Here are my thoughts on your points based on my experimenting so far.

1. Center channel is the most important of the home theater... buy the best one you can that will match your left and right. Best yet buy the same as your left and right. ( one of the largest improvements)
So my next priority will be to buy the B&W 684 center. Unfortunately it (HTM62) is about $450 - will work on this for my next HT purchase.
If you can spring the extra cash I would upgrade to the HTM61. It is voiced the same as the 684s and 683s, but is a significant upgrade over the HTM62. Like we said the best speaker in your system should be the center channel.

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9. Going from 5.1 to 7.1 not much of a difference. But I am going to go back to 7 because I have the speakers sitting around. (Not much difference)
Only point I will have to disagree on you with. I just setup my 7.1 last night, and every 7.1 enabled bluray I have has sounded noticeably better with the 7.1 Of course, this is subjective.
Part of the reason you noticed a significant improvement when moving from 5.1 to 7.1 is your 5.1 setup used incorrect placement for the surround channels. The surround channels should be to the side. The picture you showed had them placed too far to the rear. Your noticing a significant improvement now because you are using better speakers for your surround channels with better placement. Take your current setup and turn off the rear channels watch a few scenes, turn them back on watch a few more scenes. You'll only notice a subtle improvement with them on.

The Dolby Speaker placement guide is a nice interactive overview of how to place your speakers.
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post #18739 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 09:07 AM
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Hey Daniel - need some more help if you're able. I did some testing with the opening scene/prologue of Thor: The Dark World because it has good solo dialog, mixed action dialog, and pure action. Here is what I found.

With the center off, the vocals seem balanced and loud enough to not be overpowered by the music/action in the scene. With the center on and balanced with the fronts at -5db (as per A. MCACC) the volume is too low and gets somewhat washed out by the music/action sound FX. If I turn the center up, say to 0.0db, the issue of the dialog being too low is fixed, but then what seems to happen is that the Surrounds and Rears get washed out (not able to hear the sounds coming from them), due to some of the action mix being ported to the center channel and its louder setting washing those out.

I would like to use the center, because the way I see it is that if I don't, because only something like 5% of the audio track comes out of the surrounds and rears, im basically running a stereo setup. The real culprit, and the reason the fronts and center are being set to -5db in the first place by A. MCACC is likely because my fronts are overpowering compared to the rest of the speaker set. My thought was to just increase the channel level of the surrounds and rears a bit to compensate for the louder center. Any reason that might not be a good idea? Anything else you can think of? I remember yesterday you said something about setting the B&Ws to Small and setting crossover to 150Hz for the whole system. Think I should give that a shot? Thanks for any help you can give in advance.
Feel free to play with all the different settings and configurations. My guess is that you won't find an optimal solution until you upgrade your center, and my hunch is that best sound you are going to get with your current speaker setup is by turning the center channel off. From my experience the only way to really solve the center channel dialog being washed out by the sound effects is by upgrading the center channel. Turn up the center channel, it dominates the surround effects. Turn up the surrounds the center channel will sound overwhelmed again. That has just been my experience in the last 10-15 years I've been playing with this stuff.
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post #18740 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 09:16 AM
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Feel free to play with all the different settings and configurations. My guess is that you won't find an optimal solution until you upgrade your center, and my hunch is that best sound you are going to get with your current speaker setup is by turning the center channel off. From my experience the only way to really solve the center channel dialog being washed out by the sound effects is by upgrading the center channel. Turn up the center channel, it dominates the surround effects. Turn up the surrounds the center channel will sound overwhelmed again. That has just been my experience in the last 10-15 years I've been playing with this stuff.
Interesting regarding the 5.1 to 7.1 difference - and what you said makes a lot of sense.

Regarding the setup, I think you are right. Turning the center up and rears cause the same issue as before, though it's a little better.

It's really between that and turning off the center channel until I get a better one. I would love to get the center now, but dropping the $900 for the fronts and $500 for the receiver has already got me in a bit of hot water with the wife If I go spend $650 on a center speaker and tell her its to make the system sound even better (already used that one last night), I might just not make it to tomorrow haha. Anyways, it sounds great for now, and I will improve it going forward.
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post #18741 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 09:20 AM
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So will B&W have ATMOS enabled speakers like Pioneer Electronics CEA Line Show Activities

See their presentation to happen on Wednesday?

Location: Metropolitan Pavilion, 125 W. 18th Street, NY, NY
Press Conference, Wednesday, June 25 at 11:45 a.m. EDT
Booth Exhibit, Booth #44 , Wednesday, June 25 (11 a.m. – 7 p.m.) and Thursday, June 26 (9 a.m. – 3 p.m.)

Home Technology Demonstrations, Booth #5
I'm very curious about this too. I was thinking of pulling the trigger later this summer on a set of 600 series 2 for my home theater, but now I think it's prudent to wait.

Big question is, what are the real changes to speaker design to enable Atmos, and will they sound good for music too, or do you need to keep a seperate set of speakers for those. If so, I don't know how Atmos can really convince people to buy two sets of speakers.
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post #18742 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 09:22 AM
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Interesting regarding the 5.1 to 7.1 difference - and what you said makes a lot of sense.

Regarding the setup, I think you are right. Turning the center up and rears cause the same issue as before, though it's a little better.

It's really between that and turning off the center channel until I get a better one. I would love to get the center now, but dropping the $900 for the fronts and $500 for the receiver has already got me in a bit of hot water with the wife If I go spend $650 on a center speaker and tell her its to make the system sound even better (already used that one last night), I might just not make it to tomorrow haha. Anyways, it sounds great for now, and I will improve it going forward.
I know how that goes If you play with the rears and determine that it sounds nearly as good without them on, maybe you could return the VSX-44 and use the money buy the HTM61 and go back to the 522 for now.
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post #18743 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 09:40 AM
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Feel free to play with all the different settings and configurations. My guess is that you won't find an optimal solution until you upgrade your center, and my hunch is that best sound you are going to get with your current speaker setup is by turning the center channel off. From my experience the only way to really solve the center channel dialog being washed out by the sound effects is by upgrading the center channel. Turn up the center channel, it dominates the surround effects. Turn up the surrounds the center channel will sound overwhelmed again. That has just been my experience in the last 10-15 years I've been playing with this stuff.
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I know how that goes If you play with the rears and determine that it sounds nearly as good without them on, maybe you could return the VSX-44 and use the money buy the HTM61 and go back to the 522 for now.


It sounds like a better center channel is way higher up on the list than 5.1 to 7.1 as far as sound improvement goes. And based on the fact that I spent nearly what it would cost for the B&W Center on a receiver to drive the 7.1 - maybe i made a mistake....

My initial thought is that I don't want to take the receiver back because now I have these speakers mounted on the side of the room, but then I remembered what you said about that being the better location for them anyways. So I wonder if I should take the receiver back, get the center and just use the old Yamaha fronts (now on the sides) as my surrounds without the rears.....decisions decisions....

Oh and this might be a stupid question, but what if I plugged both the rears and surrounds into the 5.1 receiver's Surround inputs?
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post #18744 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 10:15 AM
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It sounds like a better center channel is way higher up on the list than 5.1 to 7.1 as far as sound improvement goes. And based on the fact that I spent nearly what it would cost for the B&W Center on a receiver to drive the 7.1 - maybe i made a mistake....

My initial thought is that I don't want to take the receiver back because now I have these speakers mounted on the side of the room, but then I remembered what you said about that being the better location for them anyways. So I wonder if I should take the receiver back, get the center and just use the old Yamaha fronts (now on the sides) as my surrounds without the rears.....decisions decisions....

Oh and this might be a stupid question, but what if I plugged both the rears and surrounds into the 5.1 receiver's Surround inputs?
Not a good idea to connect them both. In parallel they will present a smaller impedance to the receiver 4Ohms. I think only the Pioneer SC elite receivers are rated to drive 4 ohms and it likely would sound worse anyways.

One other thing to note the Yamaha fronts have a better frequency response than the surround speakers. By removing the rear channels you could drop the crossover down to 80Hz, from my experience if you can get speakers that allow you to run the crossover at 60 or 80 Hz it is a nice improvement. I'd try turning off the rears, changing the crossover to 80 Hz and see if you like the sound better.

If you do then hook up the 522 with the same settings and see if you like that setup as well. If you do then it is probably worth returning the VSX-44 for a B&W center. You can do lots of experimenting before you return or buy anything else.

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post #18745 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 10:24 AM
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Not a good idea to connect them both. In parallel they will present a smaller impedance to the receiver 4Ohms. I think only the Pioneer SC elite receivers are rated to drive 4 ohms and it likely would sound worse anyways.

One other thing to note the Yamaha fronts have a better frequency response than the surround speakers. By removing the rear channels you could drop the crossover down to 80Hz, from my experience if you can get speakers that allow you to run the crossover at 60 or 80 Hz it is a nice improvement. I'd try turning off the rears, changing the crossover to 80 Hz and see if you like the sound better.

If you do then hook up the 522 with the same settings and see if you like that setup as well. If you do then it is probably worth returning the VSX-44 for a B&W center. You can do lots of experimenting before you return or buy anything else.
OK I will do some experimenting. Couldn't I just turn the crossover down to 80Hz with the rears plugged in. They would just then send less bass to the sub if I understand correctly, but the rest of the speakers will act the same at 80Hz as they would with or without the rears unplugged right?
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post #18746 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 10:30 AM
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OK I will do some experimenting. Couldn't I just turn the crossover down to 80Hz with the rears plugged in. They would just then send less bass to the sub if I understand correctly, but the rest of the speakers will act the same at 80Hz as they would with or without the rears unplugged right?
I wouldn't unplug them, just change the speaker setting for the rears to "NO" that will turn them off and route any sound that was provided for those channels on a 7.1 channel blueray to the nearest surround speaker (in this case your Yamaha fronts that are now surrounds).

And no they wouldn't necessarily sound the same. There will be an increase in noise/distortion by using a crossover point lower than the frequency response of the speaker. That noise/distortion is much worse than the dynamics improvement you'd gain by using a lower crossover.
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post #18747 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 11:19 AM
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I know how that goes If you play with the rears and determine that it sounds nearly as good without them on, maybe you could return the VSX-44 and use the money buy the HTM61 and go back to the 522 for now.
To me he should save the money first then buy what you want.
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post #18748 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 11:23 AM
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I wouldn't unplug them, just change the speaker setting for the rears to "NO" that will turn them off and route any sound that was provided for those channels on a 7.1 channel blueray to the nearest surround speaker (in this case your Yamaha fronts that are now surrounds).

And no they wouldn't necessarily sound the same. There will be an increase in noise/distortion by using a crossover point lower than the frequency response of the speaker. That noise/distortion is much worse than the dynamics improvement you'd gain by using a lower crossover.
One experiment I did was to make the Surrounds (Old Yamaha Fronts) to Large as well as the fronts, and leave the center and rears as small - then put Xover to 100Hz. I think this is the best sound i've gotten so far.
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post #18749 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 11:33 AM
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Patrick,

I have a set of Nautilus 803s. They are currently resting in my media room directly on the carpet. Beneath the carpet is a heavy duty pad, and beneath that is a poured concrete basement subfloor. The speakers are plumb and level -- I have checked. They are currently on either side of my 120" screen with a decent amount of toe in (aimed directly at the right and left from row sitting postion -- there are three seats total).

My speakers did not come with spikes (the original owner had lost them). I hate to damage the carpet with the spikes -- will they really improve the sound stage (which is already exemplary)? And a huge improvement over my CDM-9NTs (which are for sale everyone).

I know it seems like you are being asked to repeat yourself -- but new spikes are $25 per speaker from your parts website. Will there really be a $50+ improvement in sound quality?

Thanks!
Patrick seems quiet this morning, so I'll chime in. Spikes might help if your speaker cabinets resonate and that resonance degrades the sound quality. That's if you believe that spikes actually can decrease that resonance, an assumption that makes absolutely no sense to me. What you will find is many, many audiophiles stating that "mechanical coupling" speakers to a floor drastically improves sound quality. They describe the difference using the typical buzz words you find in rags like Stereophile. Note that these terms defy any rational definition or explanation, yet all their friends hear the same thing. Spikes, like power conditioners, overpriced cables, etc, yield the following enhancements; lower noise floor, improved bass slam, improved leading edge attack, better microdynamics, etc. It goes on ad nauseum, and yet when you ask exactly what they mean, they say just try it for yourself.

Here's an excerpt from SP 2014 RC's:

First, tube cozies that alter electron flow:

Audio Research Tube Damping Rings: $4 each ✩
Damping rings for all AR products are now available to the public at large. They're made of a proprietary polymer material that converts kinetic energy to heat, and their improvements are not subtle, exclaims BJR: tighter, cleaner, deeper, more dynamic bass; more coherent transient attacks; crisper, more extended highs; plus "improvements in the reproduction of subtle gradations of low-level dynamics." Give "em a whirl—the cost is minimal. (Vol.23 No.2, Vol.26 No.8)


Here's a disc, that once you play it on your system, changes the way other discs sound when played later:

Ayre Acoustics Irrational But Efficacious System Enhancement CD: $19.99
Ayre's test CD includes five tracks of various white, pink, and brown noise, as well as two glide tones that sweep from 5Hz to 20kHz. The disc produced a less electronic sound in JM's system, while lowering the noise floor and improving microdynamics. "I am flabbergasted," said he. "Highly recommended."AD adds that this CD should be used "with caution, and with the understanding that, as with trying to measure a transformer with a DVM and unintentionally magnetizing the core, negative results may ensue and may take a few days to fade away." ST points out that "weird **** goes on in hi-fi. don't dismiss it until you try it. I use this thing, too. Just don't play too loud." (Vol.33 No.12, Vol.34 No.2, Vol.36 No.10 WWW)


Weird crap appears in print, on the internet, etc. The emperor has no clothes. We'll be installing some very nice imported, woven carpet in my HT. I won't be spiking it.
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post #18750 of 18908 Old 06-24-2014, 11:55 AM
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Interesting regarding the 5.1 to 7.1 difference - and what you said makes a lot of sense.

Regarding the setup, I think you are right. Turning the center up and rears cause the same issue as before, though it's a little better.

It's really between that and turning off the center channel until I get a better one. I would love to get the center now, but dropping the $900 for the fronts and $500 for the receiver has already got me in a bit of hot water with the wife If I go spend $650 on a center speaker and tell her its to make the system sound even better (already used that one last night), I might just not make it to tomorrow haha. Anyways, it sounds great for now, and I will improve it going forward.
No doubt that you need a matching center channel. However, I would never recommend the HTM61 to anyone. The 685 is a superior speaker. If you can't buy a single 685 then a pair costs no more than the HTM61.

You may be totally impressed by the HTM61 since it is an improvement over your current one. If possible also try the 685 in the same set up then decide.
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