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post #19351 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
I don't envy your predicament. When I demo'd the CM10's I also found that the sonic differences impacted their pairing with the CMC2. The lack of a CMC3 is a fairly glaring omission in the lineup in my opinion. B&W has somewhat backed themselves into a corner. They proclaim the advantages of the detached tweeter arrangement (which I don't disagree with) and then try to market an in-cabinet tweeter center with a detached tweeter tower as matching. The 2 messages are at odds with each other.
It's intersting that this same predicament exists in the 800 series line up. Since B&W dropped the HTM1D there is no true matching center for the 800 and 802 as there is no longer a speaker with the marlan head and bass to run with the 800 and 802. They market the HTM2 as being the center for these speakers and it does do a good job but the reality is the HTM2 is a much better match for the 803 and even 804 than the 800 and 802. Those 2 speakers simply out perform the HTM2. They should have kept the HTM1D as a custom offering at least i.e. not a permanent offering in the lineup but one that could be special ordered.

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post #19352 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
They proclaim the advantages of the detached tweeter arrangement (which I don't disagree with) and then try to market an in-cabinet tweeter center with a detached tweeter tower as matching. The 2 messages are at odds with each other.
Well put. I'm willing to take a chance on the CMC2 S2 because I think the matching decoupled double dome tweeter could make all the difference. The CM10s rock my world on a daily basis and I would be thrilled to have a center channel that matches up to them.

Just noticed on the CMC S2 page, Best Buy says it is ideally paired with the CM8 S2. Thought maybe this language was copied from the original two CM centre channels, but I checked and it is not. The pairing suggestions were added for the new S2 centers.
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post #19353 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Brotus View Post
Well put. I'm willing to take a chance on the CMC2 S2 because I think the matching decoupled double dome tweeter could make all the difference. The CM10s rock my world on a daily basis and I would be thrilled to have a center channel that matches up to them.

Just noticed on the CMC S2 page, Best Buy says it is ideally paired with the CM8 S2. Thought maybe this language was copied from the original two CM centre channels, but I checked and it is not. The pairing suggestions were added for the new S2 centers.
Moving to an identical driver in the tweeter in the CMC2 S2 will certainly help. When comparing the CM9 with the CM10 the main differences I noted were in the highs. With the CM10 offering a bit more detail and a wider soundstage. How much of that is the location and how much is the driver will be the big question. My gut tells me you may get some of the detail that the CMC2 was lacking, but the wider and more open soundstage is something I suspect comes more from the detached tweeter.

It's still baffling that they are missing an opportunity to make money on a matching center. It would only be a win-win.

As far as Best Buys recommendations, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about them.


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post #19354 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 12:01 PM
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Well guys I did listen to CM8, CM9S2's today and they just hook them up today, they sounded good, but they need to be broken-in, Now are they better S1 series too early to say right now.
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post #19355 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mjmcmahon67 View Post
Hi all -

back at the first of the year, I purchased a pair of 685's which have now been moved back into the Surround spots. Unfortunately, the stands that were purchased with them are about 6" too short to allow the speaker to sit completely over the top of my couches. I have read that the primary consideration is to have the tweeters at (or pointing at) ear level, but is the top of the couch liable to interfere with the mid-range response from my surrounds? Before working further on moving the speakers onto stands on the wall, I wanted to get the forum's input on whether I'm wasting my time. Room layout sketch is attached.

Thanks,

Mike
Any thoughts folks?
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post #19356 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Brotus View Post
Just ordered the CMC2 S2 from Best Buy and it will arrive on 9/17/2014. I still have the original CMC2 so I will be comparing them side by side (or, perhaps, over and under).

I have the original CM10s which were an upgrade from CM9s. Over this past year, I have concluded that the original CMC2 does not image well with the CM10s. I have been mixing the center channel into the CM10s for superior sound in movies. For gaming, I've continued to use the CMC2 because the dynamic 7.1 channels blend well enough that its shortcomings don't stand out compared to the CM10s.

After buying, though, I am a little worried that a CMC3 is on the horizon to match the CM10. The reason I think this is because members here expected such a product and on the CMC2 S2 Best Buy product page, it specifically claims that the CMC2 S2 is "ideal for pairing with the CM9 S2" (To find product page, search Google... site:bestbuy.com "Bowers & Wilkins - CM Centre 2 S2").

I wonder if that is BB's own marketing people coming up with that "ideal pairing" or whether that language is from B&W? Either way, I will be testing how it sounds with the CM10s shortly.

Any suggestions or requests will be considered!
Hello.

I would think if B&W were going to come out with a "tweeter on top" center, they would have done so with the roll out of the S2 line, but who the heck knows. Can you do CM10 in the center?

Companies do some crazy things that really make you scratch your head sometimes. I upgraded my CM9 front and rears to CM10 front and rears barely a year ago, and wham....not even a year after they release the CM10, they release the CM10S2...not too cool in my book. So anyone looking to upgrade any components of a CM10 S1 series, is kind of forced to go S2 all around, as the S2 have different rings around the drivers and aestetically they would not match. I was going to trade in my CM2 Center for another CM10 for the center and have all 5 speakers the same all the way around. I can't now because the CM10S2 look different than the S1 with the new rings around the drivers.

Do you have to buy from Best Buy? Forget the dismal customer service, but they sell at full retail, and unless I am mistaken, they don't take in trades or purchase used equipment. Many people here have mentioned dealers who sell at 10% and sometimes more off list. Some also offer full value on your trade for up to a certain timeframe, or at the very least will buy your old stuff back at a decent price, thus eliminating the trouble of selling your used gear. My local B&W dealer sells for 10% off list on the CM series, plus, he will offer 100% trade in value for 12 months toward full list on any upgrade, and he is flexible with the 12 month limit. I started with 600 series then I upgraded to CM9, now have CM10, and I am upgrading within the next month to something in the 800 series. It's nice being able to upgrade for full value paid and not having to deal with selling used stuff.

And of course, any local B&W dealer is going to trump BB in knowledge, advise and customer service.

B&W CM10 fronts-B&W CM10 rears-CM2 Center-ASWCM12 sub---Rotel RSP-1572 pre-amp-Rotel RMB-1585 amp---Oppo BDP-105 Blu-ray---SurgeX QX515---Samsung UN60H7150---AppleTV---Acoustimac DMD-422 acoustic panels 48"X24"X2" (11) w/ Owens Corning 703.

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post #19357 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post
It's intersting that this same predicament exists in the 800 series line up. Since B&W dropped the HTM1D there is no true matching center for the 800 and 802 as there is no longer a speaker with the marlan head and bass to run with the 800 and 802. They market the HTM2 as being the center for these speakers and it does do a good job but the reality is the HTM2 is a much better match for the 803 and even 804 than the 800 and 802. Those 2 speakers simply out perform the HTM2. They should have kept the HTM1D as a custom offering at least i.e. not a permanent offering in the lineup but one that could be special ordered.
I am upgrading to 800 series in the very near future. Either 802, 803 or 804, just have to do some more listening and decide what is best for my small (10X12) room, and if I want to go from 5.1 to 2 channel or stay 5.1, so I have been looking into the HTM2 vs HTM4.

I had this exact conversation about the HTM1, 2 & 4 with my dealer...he stated the HTM2 is better with the 803 and 804 than the HTM4 and stated it would still be fine with the 802. All of this is yet to be determined based on my decisions and listening, but I agree with you, that the HTM2 would not be the best choice for 800 and 802.

My reason for mentioning this, is that I specifically asked why B&W discontinued the HTM1 with the matching Marlan head, because if I decide to go with 802 and go 5.1, I want things to match. He stated that the HTM1 simply was not selling, and he attributed the lack of sales on the size of the center. He said the length at 38.3 was not as much of an issue as the height at 23", but said overall that it was a "beast" and attributed that as the main factor in the lack of sales, and ultimately its' discontinuatiuon.

To me, size is not as much a factor as having all matching components...I mean if you can fit a pair of 802 in a room with no problem, what is the big deal with a 38"X23" center that matches? But that was his explanation.

B&W CM10 fronts-B&W CM10 rears-CM2 Center-ASWCM12 sub---Rotel RSP-1572 pre-amp-Rotel RMB-1585 amp---Oppo BDP-105 Blu-ray---SurgeX QX515---Samsung UN60H7150---AppleTV---Acoustimac DMD-422 acoustic panels 48"X24"X2" (11) w/ Owens Corning 703.

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post #19358 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by KaliKid2013 View Post
Do you have to buy from Best Buy? Forget the dismal customer service, but they sell at full retail, and unless I am mistaken, they don't take in trades or purchase used equipment...And of course, any local B&W dealer is going to trump BB in knowledge, advise and customer service.
I loathe Best Buy but I just so happen to have "Elite Plus" status with them for the rest of the year which offers a generous return policy, 6% cash back in points (w/credit card), and free expedited shipping. Also, I don't have a B&W dealer near me since I move out of Austin (Modia!) to Asheville, NC (no one?).

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Originally Posted by KaliKid2013
Can you do CM10 in the center?
Probably! Beef up the midrange driver to full size and stick the tweeter on top. Not sure if the decoupled midrange FST is doable in "Centre" form, though.

EDIT: @KaliKid2013 , I thought you meant "is a horizontal center that can match the CM10 even possible?" but now I read it is "are you, with your setup, able to use a CM10 as a center channel?" in which case the answer is no, I have a plasma that is positioned low to the ground which is my preference.

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post #19359 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KaliKid2013 View Post
I am upgrading to 800 series in the very near future. Either 802, 803 or 804, just have to do some more listening and decide what is best for my small (10X12) room, and if I want to go from 5.1 to 2 channel or stay 5.1, so I have been looking into the HTM2 vs HTM4.

I had this exact conversation about the HTM1, 2 & 4 with my dealer...he stated the HTM2 is better with the 803 and 804 than the HTM4 and stated it would still be fine with the 802. All of this is yet to be determined based on my decisions and listening, but I agree with you, that the HTM2 would not be the best choice for 800 and 802.

My reason for mentioning this, is that I specifically asked why B&W discontinued the HTM1 with the matching Marlan head, because if I decide to go with 802 and go 5.1, I want things to match. He stated that the HTM1 simply was not selling, and he attributed the lack of sales on the size of the center. He said the length at 38.3 was not as much of an issue as the height at 23", but said overall that it was a "beast" and attributed that as the main factor in the lack of sales, and ultimately its' discontinuatiuon.

To me, size is not as much a factor as having all matching components...I mean if you can fit a pair of 802 in a room with no problem, what is the big deal with a 38"X23" center that matches? But that was his explanation.
I don't think the HTM2 is that much less awkward of a speaker than the HTM1 was. I think the price was the real issue. I guess the HTM2 at least has a stand. None of the 800 series centers can fit very well into an entertainment center / shelf.
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post #19360 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 08:57 PM
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What do the HTM1D go for used? I have one in my bedroom that I never use.

 

 

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post #19361 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 10:04 PM
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What do the HTM1D go for used? I have one in my bedroom that I never use.
The cynical married man might suggest one or two other things that don't get used in the bedroom after some time, but I cannot fathom the HTM1D being one of them.

However, as a drunken single man might loathsomely ask, peering across his bed the morning after a bender, how did it get there?


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post #19362 of 19372 Old Yesterday, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Brotus View Post
I loathe Best Buy but I just so happen to have "Elite Plus" status with them for the rest of the year which offers a generous return policy, 6% cash back in points (w/credit card), and free expedited shipping. Also, I don't have a B&W dealer near me since I move out of Austin (Modia!) to Asheville, NC (
Lest we not forget that if not for the 400+ magnolia stores, these "local" dealers probably would not offer a 10% discount from list. Also small local dealers do not fall under the same oversight on pricing that the big box retailers do
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post #19363 of 19372 Old Today, 09:24 AM
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I don't think the HTM2 is that much less awkward of a speaker than the HTM1 was. I think the price was the real issue. I guess the HTM2 at least has a stand. None of the 800 series centers can fit very well into an entertainment center / shelf.
Probably a bit of both I would suspect. Width wise the 1 wasn't acutally much wider than the 2 but it was noticeably deeper and higher but I would think that wouldn't have been much of an issue seeing as it was never mant to be mounted on a stand. So if you compare the 1 spiked with the 2 on the HTM stand it's actually the HTM2 that's higher, by a fair bit.

I think just the nature of it's design it looked more opposing than it may have been if you were to sit a 1 beside the 2. As for price the thing was very expensive making it the 2nd most expensive 800 series speaker. It was what, just slightly less than a single 800 but a bit more than a single 801 I think.

I can't imagine B&W sell to many Nautilus speakers so not selling to many HTM1D's seems like a poor excuse to stop making it when the other model suffers from the same issue as it were.

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post #19364 of 19372 Old Today, 10:34 AM
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There is always someone who will purchase a center as large as the HTM1D, but not necessarily enough to warrant keeping it in production. The market is much smaller than you'd imagine. The simple economics work against making 100 of anything at our level of manufacturing, unless you price it in a way to destroy any semblance of value (charging $18k for a $9k center channel as an example.)

The Nautilus HTM1 has a direct replacement in the HTM2 Diamond. Because we make a relatively large number of HTM2 Diamond, the economics of production keep the price down. That's good news for everyone.

Regards,

Patrick Butler
B&W Group North America


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Originally Posted by KaliKid2013 View Post
I am upgrading to 800 series in the very near future. Either 802, 803 or 804, just have to do some more listening and decide what is best for my small (10X12) room, and if I want to go from 5.1 to 2 channel or stay 5.1, so I have been looking into the HTM2 vs HTM4.

I had this exact conversation about the HTM1, 2 & 4 with my dealer...he stated the HTM2 is better with the 803 and 804 than the HTM4 and stated it would still be fine with the 802. All of this is yet to be determined based on my decisions and listening, but I agree with you, that the HTM2 would not be the best choice for 800 and 802.

My reason for mentioning this, is that I specifically asked why B&W discontinued the HTM1 with the matching Marlan head, because if I decide to go with 802 and go 5.1, I want things to match. He stated that the HTM1 simply was not selling, and he attributed the lack of sales on the size of the center. He said the length at 38.3 was not as much of an issue as the height at 23", but said overall that it was a "beast" and attributed that as the main factor in the lack of sales, and ultimately its' discontinuatiuon.

To me, size is not as much a factor as having all matching components...I mean if you can fit a pair of 802 in a room with no problem, what is the big deal with a 38"X23" center that matches? But that was his explanation.
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post #19365 of 19372 Old Today, 10:43 AM
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The HTM1D (not the HTM1) was (HWD) 23"x38.3x22.8 for $9k. The HTM2 Diamond is 13"x33.1"x15.2" for $5k. The market for giant, $9k center channels is very small. Nautilus is a different animal entirely. The product is iconic, and expensive enough to warrant building a relatively small number per year. While the HTM1D was a great center channel, it was most definitely was not iconic.


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Probably a bit of both I would suspect. Width wise the 1 wasn't acutally much wider than the 2 but it was noticeably deeper and higher but I would think that wouldn't have been much of an issue seeing as it was never mant to be mounted on a stand. So if you compare the 1 spiked with the 2 on the HTM stand it's actually the HTM2 that's higher, by a fair bit.

I think just the nature of it's design it looked more opposing than it may have been if you were to sit a 1 beside the 2. As for price the thing was very expensive making it the 2nd most expensive 800 series speaker. It was what, just slightly less than a single 800 but a bit more than a single 801 I think.

I can't imagine B&W sell to many Nautilus speakers so not selling to many HTM1D's seems like a poor excuse to stop making it when the other model suffers from the same issue as it were.
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post #19366 of 19372 Old Today, 10:53 AM
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Hi Jeahrens,

There are no plans to produce a tweeter on top center channel in the CM Range. I've personally paired the new CMC2S2 with CM10, and it works brilliantly. The blend is seamless and dialog sounds crystal clear and dynamic. While I'd love to see a tweeter on top version, the reality is that the majority of CM customers want the opposite- something small that fits in their furniture. This puts us in a bit of a bind in wanting to produce that best products that actually can sell in quantities that make their production viable. The CMC2S2 does a great job of walking that tight rope.

Try the CMC2S2 with CM10S2 (or 1) and I think you'll be very pleased. I'm about as picky a listener as you'll meet, and I was hearing things in soundtracks that I'm very familiar with that I have not heard before from a CM center.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America.

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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
I don't envy your predicament. When I demo'd the CM10's I also found that the sonic differences impacted their pairing with the CMC2. The lack of a CMC3 is a fairly glaring omission in the lineup in my opinion. B&W has somewhat backed themselves into a corner. They proclaim the advantages of the detached tweeter arrangement (which I don't disagree with) and then try to market an in-cabinet tweeter center with a detached tweeter tower as matching. The 2 messages are at odds with each other.

Will they make a CMC3 is the big question? The fact the CM6 exists says there is a chance. I have not sat down with the S2 series yet, but I suspect I will again find the pairing of the CMC2 S2 and the CM9 S2 to be better for multichannel matching. Time will tell I guess. You can at least recoup a good deal of your investment in the CMC2 S2 on the used market should a CMC3 surface.
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post #19367 of 19372 Old Today, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
The HTM1D (not the HTM1) was (HWD) 23"x38.3x22.8 for $9k. The HTM2 Diamond is 13"x33.1"x15.2" for $5k. The market for giant, $9k center channels is very small. Nautilus is a different animal entirely. The product is iconic, and expensive enough to warrant building a relatively small number per year. While the HTM1D was a great center channel, it was most definitely was not iconic.
Thanks for posting on the subject Patrick. So like I remembered the difference in size other than height wasn't to bad. So riddle me this, seeing as the market is small for large centers how/why do you think Wilson continue to offer not only the Mezzo which is more or less similar ball park to the HTM1D but they also offer the Polaris whch is another level yet above in size and price?

For speakers similar in size or perhaps a bit larger than the HTM2, Focal make the Viva, granted not quite as big as the HTM1D but it's still a large speaker for a center channel. Sonus Faber just recently introduced the Homage Vox which like the 2 Wilsons is degisned for the floor due to size. I will point out though that even though it's designed for the floor it's closer to the HTM2 in size.

It would seem there might be enough of a market now to dip ones toe in

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post #19368 of 19372 Old Today, 12:17 PM
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Hi Rod,

Best of luck to them. That market is very, very small- we know. If there was any real money to be made, we'd be there.

Patrick


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Thanks for posting on the subject Patrick. So like I remembered the difference in size other than height wasn't to bad. So riddle me this, seeing as the market is small for large centers how/why do you think Wilson continue to offer not only the Mezzo which is more or less similar ball park to the HTM1D but they also offer the Polaris whch is another level yet above in size and price?

For speakers similar in size or perhaps a bit larger than the HTM2, Focal make the Viva, granted not quite as big as the HTM1D but it's still a large speaker for a center channel. Sonus Faber just recently introduced the Homage Vox which like the 2 Wilsons is degisned for the floor due to size. I will point out though that even though it's designed for the floor it's closer to the HTM2 in size.

It would seem there might be enough of a market now to dip ones toe in
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post #19369 of 19372 Old Today, 07:18 PM
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Hey, anyone know if the new tweeters for the cm line with the grills can be used to repair the original cm line. Sitting here with both pushed in and getting tired of replacing them...

Thanks ,
Jim
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post #19370 of 19372 Old Today, 07:25 PM
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Hey, anyone know if the new tweeters for the cm line with the grills can be used to repair the original cm line. Sitting here with both pushed in and getting tired of replacing them...

Thanks ,
Jim
My guess is no since the S2s have different cabinets and more importantly crossovers. Perhaps Patrick can chime in.

Why not purchase the tweeter protectors?

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post #19371 of 19372 Old Today, 07:46 PM
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Would be great if the covers would fit the older style tweeter....
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post #19372 of 19372 Old Today, 08:35 PM
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I have 703s. Would any of the CM s1 or s2 centers be a better upgrade over the original series 7 center?

Phil Tomaskovic
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B W , Bowers And Wilkings 685 Speakers , carver cm-1090
Gear in this thread - cm-1090 by PriceGrabber.com



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