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post #20041 of 20056 Old 12-12-2014, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Billerator View Post
Greetings all,

I've been playing around with our CM10's location and orientation for a few months now. They are the main speakers in our 5.1 system that we primarily enjoy with music. I have them toed in a little and foam 'doughnut' plugs installed. They are not as far away from the wall as I'd like, but I'm at the limit. 'Can't have it all I guess. They sound great. I'm pleased and surprised at how well they seem to fill the room with sound. I can't see changing their location any time soon.

They sit on the carpeted floor, plinth attached with rubber feet. The carpet is about 1/2" thick dense pile over a very dense 7/16" urethane foam pad.

Will installing the spike feet do me any good?
My concern is the wife, and being able to justify sticking spikes through her brand new carpet.

Thx
B
Yes. It is important to have the speaker properly coupled and steadied. Make sure your speakers are plum and level after installing the spikes. Test by trying to warble the speaker. Tweak your spikes till it doesn't warble any more.

I find that my spike marks eventually disappear. Hope this helps.
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post #20042 of 20056 Old 12-13-2014, 08:50 AM
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on the topic of positioning for CM10s does anyone have any suggestions/knowledge regarding the dispersion patterns of these speakers when it comes to placement in a non-rectangular room less than ideal acoustical properties?

to clarify I was wondering if it makes sense to perhaps aim the CM10 downward a bit to help offset the effects of my troublesome vent pass that sits either just above my main listening position (or just behind and above/in front and above) depending on the placement of my leather couch. I am going to try and get a CAD diagram going to make it easier to visualize but this vent pass is causing me all kinds of headaches when it comes to speaker placement and subsequently calibration using xt32 on the sr7009. the vent pass is 1 foot in height coming down from the ceiling and starts at 10 feet from the front wall and runs 3 feet in width. it is the full width of the room as well and the right wall in this setup is a thin, badly insulated separation from a noisy hvac system feeding this vent pass and a vertical one within the utility room with not just air but plenty of reverberating noise when it kicks on.

Long version.....(stop reading if you have a life outside the forum)

the rest of my set up is like this:

brick fireplace is on front wall (behind my tv stand and CMC2) which is 17 feet in width - fireplace is not exactly center in room but closer to right wall by a foot or two - this results in my entire set up behind off center unless I move the tv stand and consequently front 3 speakers to the left making it a bit unpleasing to the eye and perhaps even worse on the ears as the right speaker will be closer to the brick fireplace then the left.

I have tried setups with the CM10s 3 or more feet from the front wall as well as closer to a foot from the front wall and experimented with distance between them ranging from 5.5 feet of separation to around 8 feet of separation (always with cmc2 below my tv and angled up).

I have had moments of great stereo playback with varying degrees of toe in but ideally I want to avoid a "sweet spot" and go for more of a wide listening area or if possible a "full room sound" if that makes sense.

I have experimented with subwoofer placement as well with my dual (2) SVS SB2000s subwoofer behind placed mid wall (just at front edge of vent pass (about 9 feet from front wall) of about a foot from each side wall or up to 3 feet from side wall which is usually just left and right of my couch serving as the MLP. Also have tried front wall set up in side of CM10s - outside of CM10s, and one in front right corner and one in rear back left corner.

I am STILL looking for viable speaker stand option for my cm5 surrounds but short of ordering something from b&w I havent had any luck. Got some helpful suggestions on the forum for stands that would work but will not allow for bolting down the cm5 for lack of the better phrase and in that scenario i am leaning towards building my own stands with some metal or wood round column type material and two wooden top and bottom pieces to plop the cm5 on top of. as for now i am using some IKEA furniture as stands for them and the cm5s almost always end up either right under the vent pass or just behind the vent pass as this is the only way to get them to fall into the 120-90 degree angle from MLP.

I dont have rear surrounds yet (may add them or heights or wides) because i haven't gotten to a setup with the current 5.2 gear that i am really happy with yet so trying to avoid complicating that further.

and the questions:

So to get the point for anyone still reading (thank you) I am wondering if i should scrap my tv stand in front of fireplace room set up and start all over using a different wall for my front three and tv. this would change the layout of the room so that the vent pass would be either perpendicular to soundstage and just off center or more left of listening area and consequently depending on the wall used having the hvac system behind the listening couch (at least 3 feet or more from mlp) or set everything up in front of the hvac system.

or

continue with current set up and try different mic positions with audyssey til i get things as close to decent sounding as possible. even when i get extremely accurate readings running the calibration in terms of distance measurements and subwoofer level/etc. down to the .1 of an inch I still get room nulls and peaks where lower frequencies sound good throughout the room or even just on the MLP couch.

would rear surround speakers help offset room reflections from the front sound stage for multichannel music listening?

if so would a pair of polk t15 bookshelves do the trick or would it be wise to stay in the family and add a cm1/cm5 or otherwise to the surround mix help even out the field so to speak?

if the cm10 is angled down a bit from level (i sit on a low couch anyway) would that help avoid reflections on the vent pass that could be stifling the sound from the front speakers?

did i forget to mention that the rear wall in my current set up is only half the width of the room and the back right side of my setup opens to a hallway and staircase?

I cannot say things sound bad - but without getting to the level of REW measurements (already used spl without much success) does anyone have any suggestions as to how to improve things?

happy to clarify any of this and i know i have asked much of this before in the forum so i appreciate anyone taking the time to chime in and for the patience of those who have helped in the past as it may seem a bit repetitive from previous posts.

thanks again!

My Current 5.2 Setup - for now....
B&W CM10s (FLR), CMC2, CM5 x2 (SLR)
Dual SVS SB2000s

Rack and Display:
Marantz SR7009, Marantz UD7007, T-PC50st60
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post #20043 of 20056 Old 12-13-2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fokakis1 View Post
<Snip...Yes. It is important to have the speaker properly coupled and steadied...
No doubt.
I don't think I have an issue with stability. The relatively firm carpet and very dense carpet pad hold the speakers very steady. Of course, I can get them to rock a little if I push hard enough.

I'm mainly curious if there is likely to be a noticeable change in sound quality - for the better.

Is it more or less likely that a speaker with spiked feet will sound better than without? And, buy how much? Is it going to be a %10 chance that it'll sound better, or %70? Will I be able to tell the difference?

If the probability is low that after I install the spikes I'll likely not notice any difference then I won't bother.

Thx
B
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post #20044 of 20056 Old 12-13-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Billerator View Post
No doubt.
I don't think I have an issue with stability. The relatively firm carpet and very dense carpet pad hold the speakers very steady. Of course, I can get them to rock a little if I push hard enough.

I'm mainly curious if there is likely to be a noticeable change in sound quality - for the better.

Is it more or less likely that a speaker with spiked feet will sound better than without? And, buy how much? Is it going to be a %10 chance that it'll sound better, or %70? Will I be able to tell the difference?

If the probability is low that after I install the spikes I'll likely not notice any difference then I won't bother.

Thx
B
I was skeptical, but ended up realizing improved imaging. Nothing drastic, but an improvement nonetheless.
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post #20045 of 20056 Old 12-14-2014, 05:49 AM
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Hello,

What is everyone using for rears in a 5.1 system when looking at the 686's? These will be on a back wall, with the sofa against it. Not changing that....

Thanks!
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post #20046 of 20056 Old 12-14-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wardman1 View Post
Hello,

What is everyone using for rears in a 5.1 system when looking at the 686's? These will be on a back wall, with the sofa against it. Not changing that....

Thanks!
I use 686s. Crossed at 80hz they work brilliantly. They hang easily with one drywall screw. Since they are front ported they perform well against the wall. I have them 2 feet above my listening position.
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post #20047 of 20056 Old 12-15-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by wardman1 View Post
Hello,

What is everyone using for rears in a 5.1 system when looking at the 686's? These will be on a back wall, with the sofa against it. Not changing that....

Thanks!
I'm using B&W SCM1 for rears; it's more or less a 805N created for wall-mounting. The B&W SCMS is even better; which is a 805s created for wall-mounting. Why B&W stopped including these in the diamond series is beyond me. Something important is missing in the lineup.

Edit: 5.1 does actually not have any rears; it should be sides... rears is for 7.1; for surround (sides) I use 804 Diamond
Edit2: SCM1 or SCMS can be found on the used marked; and will be great even with 686. Or you could also try the B&W DS3 for rear.

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HP: Oppo HA-1 - Audeze LCD-3(Fazor), LCD-XC - Sennheiser IE 800 - Cambridge DacMagic Plus - Beyerdynamic T5p, T70p

Last edited by Berland; 12-15-2014 at 11:36 AM.
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post #20048 of 20056 Old 12-15-2014, 11:50 AM
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Thanks - These speakers will be hung on the rear wall. The comments that you are stating, are exactly what I am trying to figure out. Others have a rear speaker solutions that fire sound left, right, and even up.
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post #20049 of 20056 Old 12-15-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wardman1 View Post
Thanks - These speakers will be hung on the rear wall. The comments that you are stating, are exactly what I am trying to figure out. Others have a rear speaker solutions that fire sound left, right, and even up.
You actually have 5.1 setup with rear speakers instead of surround (side) speakers... but all movies I've seen have the 5.1 with surround (side); this is actually stored in meta-data on the audio-stream of a blu-ray/dvd.

Surround speakers in a 5.1 setup should be placed 90 degrees (directly to your sides); on ear-level (hight). The specification indicates they can be placed a bit back (110 degrees). But surround (side) speakers should never be placed on the back-wall behind you.

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post #20050 of 20056 Old Yesterday, 07:57 AM
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New guy here. My current set up is a Pioneer VSX 50, HTM62S2, and 685s. I am probably getting an SVS sub soon and then will pick up a set of 683s or 684s. My primary use is home theater, but i listen to a range of music sometimes.

My question is this: should i put an amp in the system when i get the floor speakers? If so, what kind. Budget is an issue and i need to stay in a reasonable price range thats comparable to my system.

Thanks in advance for any info.
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post #20051 of 20056 Old Yesterday, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by RBFjr View Post
New guy here. My current set up is a Pioneer VSX 50, HTM62S2, and 685s. I am probably getting an SVS sub soon and then will pick up a set of 683s or 684s. My primary use is home theater, but i listen to a range of music sometimes.

My question is this: should i put an amp in the system when i get the floor speakers? If so, what kind. Budget is an issue and i need to stay in a reasonable price range thats comparable to my system.

Thanks in advance for any info.
The VSX 50 does not appear to have pre amp outputs for any channel other than sub so adding an amp is not possible. Maybe I'm wrong...

Main System:
Panasonic - VIERA / TCP55VT50
Emotiva XPA-5 X-Ref 12 sub
Denon X4000
Oppo BDP 93
B & W N804 Mains, 603 Rear surrounds, LCR 600 Center, ASW 600 sub, B & W CDS6 S3 rear heights
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post #20052 of 20056 Old Yesterday, 10:43 AM
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Ahhh. That sounds right and i didnt even think about that. Thank you. That begs the question though: does the vsx have what it takes to run those speakers?
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Originally Posted by RBFjr View Post
Ahhh. That sounds right and i didnt even think about that. Thank you. That begs the question though: does the vsx have what it takes to run those speakers?
I think the VSX 50 will work fine on those speakers. Of course, separat amplifier will be better, but for ordinary listening levels I don't think you will hear the big difference.

Edit:
Keep in mind that by adding a sub; you will remove the load from the VSX. Bass-frequencies are much more power-hungry; and if you remove those frequencies from the ordinary speakers you will do fine with the 7*90W of the VSX 50.

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post #20054 of 20056 Old Yesterday, 12:21 PM
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That makes sense. Thank you for the info!!
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post #20055 of 20056 Old Yesterday, 02:56 PM
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That makes sense. Thank you for the info!!
Just make sure to configure your receiver correctly; don't know how VSX 50 works, but on my receiver I can select speakers = small; this works for bass-management and cut off frequency sends lower frequency to sub; and removes them from the ordinary speakers. If you select speaker = large bass will be sendt both to sub and speakers (double-bass); which will give you a sound that is most likely not very good.

Different vendors use different names for this; look in your instructions manual delivered with your receiver for details. Getting this right will give you a much better/correct sound. So it is highly recommended spending a few hours doing right.

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post #20056 of 20056 Old Today, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pickering.tim View Post
on the topic of positioning for CM10s does anyone have any suggestions/knowledge regarding the dispersion patterns of these speakers when it comes to placement in a non-rectangular room less than ideal acoustical properties?

to clarify I was wondering if it makes sense to perhaps aim the CM10 downward a bit to help offset the effects of my troublesome vent pass that sits either just above my main listening position (or just behind and above/in front and above) depending on the placement of my leather couch. I am going to try and get a CAD diagram going to make it easier to visualize but this vent pass is causing me all kinds of headaches when it comes to speaker placement and subsequently calibration using xt32 on the sr7009. the vent pass is 1 foot in height coming down from the ceiling and starts at 10 feet from the front wall and runs 3 feet in width. it is the full width of the room as well and the right wall in this setup is a thin, badly insulated separation from a noisy hvac system feeding this vent pass and a vertical one within the utility room with not just air but plenty of reverberating noise when it kicks on.

Long version.....(stop reading if you have a life outside the forum)

the rest of my set up is like this:

brick fireplace is on front wall (behind my tv stand and CMC2) which is 17 feet in width - fireplace is not exactly center in room but closer to right wall by a foot or two - this results in my entire set up behind off center unless I move the tv stand and consequently front 3 speakers to the left making it a bit unpleasing to the eye and perhaps even worse on the ears as the right speaker will be closer to the brick fireplace then the left.

I have tried setups with the CM10s 3 or more feet from the front wall as well as closer to a foot from the front wall and experimented with distance between them ranging from 5.5 feet of separation to around 8 feet of separation (always with cmc2 below my tv and angled up).

I have had moments of great stereo playback with varying degrees of toe in but ideally I want to avoid a "sweet spot" and go for more of a wide listening area or if possible a "full room sound" if that makes sense.

I have experimented with subwoofer placement as well with my dual (2) SVS SB2000s subwoofer behind placed mid wall (just at front edge of vent pass (about 9 feet from front wall) of about a foot from each side wall or up to 3 feet from side wall which is usually just left and right of my couch serving as the MLP. Also have tried front wall set up in side of CM10s - outside of CM10s, and one in front right corner and one in rear back left corner.

I am STILL looking for viable speaker stand option for my cm5 surrounds but short of ordering something from b&w I havent had any luck. Got some helpful suggestions on the forum for stands that would work but will not allow for bolting down the cm5 for lack of the better phrase and in that scenario i am leaning towards building my own stands with some metal or wood round column type material and two wooden top and bottom pieces to plop the cm5 on top of. as for now i am using some IKEA furniture as stands for them and the cm5s almost always end up either right under the vent pass or just behind the vent pass as this is the only way to get them to fall into the 120-90 degree angle from MLP.

I dont have rear surrounds yet (may add them or heights or wides) because i haven't gotten to a setup with the current 5.2 gear that i am really happy with yet so trying to avoid complicating that further.

and the questions:

So to get the point for anyone still reading (thank you) I am wondering if i should scrap my tv stand in front of fireplace room set up and start all over using a different wall for my front three and tv. this would change the layout of the room so that the vent pass would be either perpendicular to soundstage and just off center or more left of listening area and consequently depending on the wall used having the hvac system behind the listening couch (at least 3 feet or more from mlp) or set everything up in front of the hvac system.

or

continue with current set up and try different mic positions with audyssey til i get things as close to decent sounding as possible. even when i get extremely accurate readings running the calibration in terms of distance measurements and subwoofer level/etc. down to the .1 of an inch I still get room nulls and peaks where lower frequencies sound good throughout the room or even just on the MLP couch.

would rear surround speakers help offset room reflections from the front sound stage for multichannel music listening?

if so would a pair of polk t15 bookshelves do the trick or would it be wise to stay in the family and add a cm1/cm5 or otherwise to the surround mix help even out the field so to speak?

if the cm10 is angled down a bit from level (i sit on a low couch anyway) would that help avoid reflections on the vent pass that could be stifling the sound from the front speakers?

did i forget to mention that the rear wall in my current set up is only half the width of the room and the back right side of my setup opens to a hallway and staircase?

I cannot say things sound bad - but without getting to the level of REW measurements (already used spl without much success) does anyone have any suggestions as to how to improve things?

happy to clarify any of this and i know i have asked much of this before in the forum so i appreciate anyone taking the time to chime in and for the patience of those who have helped in the past as it may seem a bit repetitive from previous posts.

thanks again!
I'm trying to visualize as best I can the setup you are describing. I would not immediately be in favor of trying to angle the speaker. It would alter the dispersion, but it would also decouple the speaker from the floor. The first thing I would do is establish the center seat position. I know you want to avoid the "sweet spot", but for Audyssey to do its job you have to establish this. I'm going guess it will be the center seat of the couch. Now what I have done to widen the sweet spot in my own setup is to adjust the L/R toe in to hit the seating positions left and right of center rather than the center. So the toe in is less aggressive. The center seat still has the best imaging, but the left and right seating still have a very nice soundfield. Then run Audyssey in at least the 3 prescribed locations and order.

The first step I would do for the room is acoustic panels to absorb reflections. That should help immensely with the problems of the fireplace and the venting. You can find panels that won't break the bank and really do help.

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