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post #22951 of 22974 Old 02-11-2016, 01:59 PM
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Hi guys,

Wanted to chime in and possibly get some help.

I've had a pair 805 Nautilus since 2000. The original 800 series 805. I've been enjoying them all these years, but since I upgraded the pre-pro and upgraded speaker cables a few years ago, I could really take full advantage of use speakers capabilities. However I also was lusting after new speakers since the 805's were performing so well, I wondered how much better I could get. I was using them mainly for movies and about 20% music. Which I know is a waste. But in recent years, the pendulum has swung over and I'm listening a lot more music because the gear is making it so much more pleasurable.

So at the time I got the new pre-pro, (Rotel RSP-1572 and the matching amplifier which puts out 100 watts I believe) I wanted to see if going to 804D2's would be what I needed. The dealer discouraged me and said to really wring out the 805's. Or to really feel a difference, go for the 803D2.

Well a month or two ago I read that the new 800 series are out and I wondered about those. I went back to my dealer and a new guy was there who actually encouraged me to consider a 804D2 or 803D2 demo model because he was going to be getting the new D3 line.

So I auditioned the 804D2 and 803D2. My interest has always been the 804D2 because of it's smaller size. While I could hear a difference, I figured once I got the 804D2 home, it would sound great. So they were offering a terrific deal for the demo models. So it was quite. Savings and I'm glad I went for it. Now I have the 804D2 at home and they do sound great. A real upgrade from the older 805 because of several generations of improvements and it being full range.

So since they are demo's, I was willing to accept a certain level of damage. My 805's were demos but were perfect. The 804D2 are cherrywood and there is a slight scuff/scratch on the side of one and the tweeter grille is damaged a bit. I'll be getting new grilles, both fabric ones and the tweeter from the dealer at no cost. I think I can minimize and or fix the scratch/scuff.

But the last thing I noticed upon delivery was one binding post is bent. If I unscrew the knob, and expose the threaded section and the hole for the wire to pass through, I see the threaded post is slightly separated at the hole. If I screw the knob back down it will cover that. It's functioning now so it's not a mechanical or functional problem. But I would like to know how easy or difficult it is to replace the binding post, or maybe the threaded section? The post is slightly loose and wiggly when unscrewed, but seems tight like the remaining good ones once the knob is tight.

Any insights on the binding post is appreciated. As I said, I'm very happy to have gotten one of the last generations of the D2 series with the iconic Kevlar cones too. Not meant as a dis on the new 800D3 series. I'm sure those are even better! And I do like the new designs a lot. But I'm glad to have gotten an upgrade for less money and a design I still like a lot!
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post #22952 of 22974 Old 02-11-2016, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelsun View Post
Hi guys,

But I would like to know how easy or difficult it is to replace the binding post, or maybe the threaded section?
Easy, here is the service manual:
http://bwgroupsupport.com/downloads/...w/804D2-TM.pdf

Here are the parts:
http://www.bwgroupusa.com/bwgroup-pa...ond/804d2.html
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post #22953 of 22974 Old 02-11-2016, 03:23 PM
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Advanced,

Thanks for your reply. I see the nautilus htm2 and nautilus 800 series have polypropylene caps so I figure those don't need to be refreshed since they have a long life span. I will look into changing the ferrofluid in the tweeter though. Hopefully it's an easy task. Thanks again.
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post #22954 of 22974 Old 02-11-2016, 03:35 PM
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Thanks Advanced! I didn't realize they had such a section on B&W's site. Thanks, that's great.

Looks like the post has to be accessed with the tray removed.
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post #22955 of 22974 Old 02-11-2016, 06:33 PM
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Hi Guys,
Just after your opinions on which front speakers I should go for.
I'll be moving into our new house later this year and it has a dedicated theatre room,size is around 3.6x3.5m(around 12ft x 11ft).
I already have a B&W Centre2s2 and I will be using 4 M-1's for surround duties plus my B&W PV1D sub.
I'm torn between the CM8s2 and the CM6s2?
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
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post #22956 of 22974 Old 02-11-2016, 06:33 PM
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Which Fronts?

Hi Guys,
Just after your opinions on which front speakers I should go for.
I'll be moving into our new house later this year and it has a dedicated theatre room,size is around 3.6x3.5m(around 12ft x 11ft).
I already have a B&W Centre2s2 and I will be using 4 M-1's for surround duties plus my B&W PV1D sub.
I'm torn between the CM8s2 and the CM6s2?
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
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post #22957 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lego1 View Post
Advanced,

Thanks for your reply. I see the nautilus htm2 and nautilus 800 series have polypropylene caps so I figure those don't need to be refreshed since they have a long life span. I will look into changing the ferrofluid in the tweeter though. Hopefully it's an easy task. Thanks again.
You are probably right. Capacitors degrade over time, at what point would you notice sound quality degradation? You probably wouldn't know that answer unless you compared them to a new set.

Also, If you have a version earlier than the Diamond series it could also be an opportunity to put in a set of Mundorf SGO caps. But now we are just being silly.
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post #22958 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothsac View Post
Hi Guys,
Just after your opinions on which front speakers I should go for.
I'll be moving into our new house later this year and it has a dedicated theatre room,size is around 3.6x3.5m(around 12ft x 11ft).
I already have a B&W Centre2s2 and I will be using 4 M-1's for surround duties plus my B&W PV1D sub.
I'm torn between the CM8s2 and the CM6s2?
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
In your situation I would go CM6S2 and put the extra money to pick up another PV1D.

Or sell the PV1D and pick up a pair of SVS ported subs.

Or put the money away for room treatments for your new theater.

Depends on your budget. CM8 is a better speaker but more bang for the buck putting money elsewhere. The best option is the CM8s, another sub and room treatments.

Last edited by advanced101101; Yesterday at 07:36 AM.
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post #22959 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 11:58 AM
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I've held off commenting on the new D3 line because I wanted to hear a fully broken-in set... Two months later, I'm now ready. I've heard fully broken-in (hundreds of hours) pair of 803D3 and 802D3, with various electronics, i.e. Classe, Rotel, Boulder, and Bryston.

Here it goes... These are overall the best speakers that I have ever heard!
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post #22960 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothsac View Post
Hi Guys,
Just after your opinions on which front speakers I should go for.
I'll be moving into our new house later this year and it has a dedicated theatre room,size is around 3.6x3.5m(around 12ft x 11ft).
I already have a B&W Centre2s2 and I will be using 4 M-1's for surround duties plus my B&W PV1D sub.
I'm torn between the CM8s2 and the CM6s2?
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
I've owned the CM6S2s and now own the CM8S2s. IMO, CM8S2s are a better balanced speaker. Their midbass is so prominent yet extremely nimble, it's a pleasure to listen to. BTW, PV1D is a great sub.
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post #22961 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 12:36 PM
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Well I changed the ferrofluid in the natilius tweeter yesterday. Way easier than I though. Took me some time to get the old fluid out which was quite thicker but wasn't really bunked up. There were also metal shavings in there too that I was able to remove.

Plugged the speaker in for a quick listen and it sounds great but I haven't really had time to do any critical listening to see if the treble improved.

Advanced, those Mundorf caps are quite pricey. I bought this center for $400 so I doubt it's worth putting that much money into the capacitors. : )
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post #22962 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 01:29 PM
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Sounds like you guys have a lot of experience servicing these 800 series speakers.

Now that Advanced has given me the information on the bent terminal core I want to replace, I'd be interested in knowing what's behind the terminal tray. I've looked at the service information Advanced linked to. There isn't clear information if the terminal cores are soldered in, pressed fit or what. I'd imagine though that if the terminal tray is removable, the entire assembly can be pulled out after the screws are removed. And the terminal cores simply slide in and out of something inside the speaker on the crossover boards.

I'd appreciate any insight before I start trying to disassemble the terminal tray on the 804D. Thanks!

Edit: oh wait, I think I see mention that the wires are crimped to the terminal core. I'll have to learn more about this for the proper crimping tool as I'm guessing you crimp the copper on the terminal core itself to secure the wire.

Last edited by Nelsun; Yesterday at 01:39 PM.
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post #22963 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lego1 View Post
Well I changed the ferrofluid in the natilius tweeter yesterday. Way easier than I though. Took me some time to get the old fluid out which was quite thicker but wasn't really bunked up. There were also metal shavings in there too that I was able to remove.

Plugged the speaker in for a quick listen and it sounds great but I haven't really had time to do any critical listening to see if the treble improved.

Advanced, those Mundorf caps are quite pricey. I bought this center for $400 so I doubt it's worth putting that much money into the capacitors. : )
Nice work!

Yes, very expensive. You would also want to change the caps in the LR speakers to match. Wouldn't be cheap.
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post #22964 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
I've held off commenting on the new D3 line because I wanted to hear a fully broken-in set... Two months later, I'm now ready. I've heard fully broken-in (hundreds of hours) pair of 803D3 and 802D3, with various electronics, i.e. Classe, Rotel, Boulder, and Bryston.

Here it goes... These are overall the best speakers that I have ever heard!
Must say my 803D3s are now becoming fully broken-in and they sound great. I spiked them a couple of days ago and it really seems to have made a difference to the sound - I know many people will say speaker spikes do not make any difference (placebo effect) but certainly make a difference to me on the D3s.
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post #22965 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 08:20 PM
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Must say my 803D3s are now becoming fully broken-in and they sound great. I spiked them a couple of days ago and it really seems to have made a difference to the sound - I know many people will say speaker spikes do not make any difference (placebo effect) but certainly make a difference to me on the D3s.
I mentioned this some time ago. If your cabinets have a great deal of resonance, spiking may conceivably make a difference. It makes no difference, almost by definition, if your speakers have no or insignificant resonance. My 800D2s have no resonance to speak of. If your speakers do, buy some that don't.

I'm putting my money on expectation bias. But as long as you like them spiked, where's the harm?
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post #22966 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothsac View Post
Hi Guys,
Just after your opinions on which front speakers I should go for.
I'll be moving into our new house later this year and it has a dedicated theatre room,size is around 3.6x3.5m(around 12ft x 11ft).
I already have a B&W Centre2s2 and I will be using 4 M-1's for surround duties plus my B&W PV1D sub.
I'm torn between the CM8s2 and the CM6s2?
Any thoughts?
Thanks.
I agree with advanced101101. Both the CM8S2 and CM6 are great speakers. Since your listening area isn't that large and you will be using a subwoofer a pair of the CM6s should suffice. Also, the tweeter-on-top is something special.

Main: CM10 S2 FR/FL, CMC2 S2, CM5 S1 surrounds, ASW610; Marantz SR5010; Parasound Halo P5; Parasound Halo A23; Oppo BDP-93; ATV
2 Channel (computer setup): Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 NrT FR/FL, ASW608; Parasound Zpre2; Parasound Zampv3; Parasound Zdac; Marantz CD5004; Rega RP1

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post #22967 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 09:13 PM
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I personally don't like the new 802D3's better than my old 802D's so I'm actually upgrading my front end rather than getting the new ones.
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post #22968 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 09:54 PM
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Here's another explanation- spiking allows you reduce the front to back rocking that can occur when your speakers are not on a level surface. Further, they allow one to adjust the speakers so that they are level. That makes a big difference.

If you are running a pair of the older D2 series, then you definitely owe it to yourself to remove the casters and replace them with spikes, or even the rubber sided version.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
I mentioned this some time ago. If your cabinets have a great deal of resonance, spiking may conceivably make a difference. It makes no difference, almost by definition, if your speakers have no or insignificant resonance. My 800D2s have no resonance to speak of. If your speakers do, buy some that don't.

I'm putting my money on expectation bias. But as long as you like them spiked, where's the harm?
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post #22969 of 22974 Old Yesterday, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob852 View Post
Must say my 803D3s are now becoming fully broken-in and they sound great. I spiked them a couple of days ago and it really seems to have made a difference to the sound - I know many people will say speaker spikes do not make any difference (placebo effect) but certainly make a difference to me on the D3s.
Definitely not a placebo. Spiking makes a huge difference. Any components that vibrate within, i.e. speakers, CD players, amplifiers, etc. benefit tremendously from spiking, or from placing on cones. This method drains the vibrations from the components to the floor, or any other support.

The concept is mechanical grounding. Soft feet, Zorbothane pads, cork, etc. should never be used.

As an experiment, one can take a coffee grinder and hold it up in the air to feel the strong vibrations from the motor. Now place a cone underneath it and gently press it down on a granite counter top, bath tub, tile floor, etc. and the vibrations from the motor instantly reduce to almost nothing. They get drained away.

Placing the same coffee grinder on soft feet does nothing for evacuating vibrations.

Spiking speakers is a must no matter how big, heavy, or inert they seem.
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post #22970 of 22974 Unread Today, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Here's another explanation- spiking allows you reduce the front to back rocking that can occur when your speakers are not on a level surface. Further, they allow one to adjust the speakers so that they are level. That makes a big difference.

If you are running a pair of the older D2 series, then you definitely owe it to yourself to remove the casters and replace them with spikes, or even the rubber sided version.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America
Thanks, Patrick. I suppose that could be a valid argument if ones floor is lumpy. Since I live in Holladay and not a third world country, my basement floor is concrete and flat, not dirt, and is covered with padding and carpet. So, my speakers are level and don't rock. They require a fair amount of effort to move even on the casters. And, since when are the 800D2s "older"? The D3s haven't even been released yet, have they?

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Originally Posted by NagysAudio View Post
Definitely not a placebo. Spiking makes a huge difference. Any components that vibrate within, i.e. speakers, CD players, amplifiers, etc. benefit tremendously from spiking, or from placing on cones. This method drains the vibrations from the components to the floor, or any other support.

The concept is mechanical grounding. Soft feet, Zorbothane pads, cork, etc. should never be used.

As an experiment, one can take a coffee grinder and hold it up in the air to feel the strong vibrations from the motor. Now place a cone underneath it and gently press it down on a granite counter top, bath tub, tile floor, etc. and the vibrations from the motor instantly reduce to almost nothing. They get drained away.

Placing the same coffee grinder on soft feet does nothing for evacuating vibrations.

Spiking speakers is a must no matter how big, heavy, or inert they seem.
Don't mean to rude, but that makes no sense at all. I regard that train of thought as the same as I do many other audiophile theories, ie, flooby dust. If you look at the Stereophile review on these speakers, you'll find that according to the accelerometer readings the cabinets have essentially no resonances and hence no vibrations. Now, if my speakers vibrated like a coffee grinder, you'd have a very good point. The less your speaker cabinets vibrate, the less improvement you'll see by spiking. One must also realize that the only vibrations that could be transmitted through spikes to the floor are those that are present at the plinth. One must demonstrate significant plinth vibrations if one expects to realize any benefit by spiking. Any internal vibrations that do not transmit to the plinth itself will not be affected.

If you and Patrick would like to come on over and lift these 225# speakers so we can spike them, we could do some sighted A-B testing. We could even attach accelerometers to the plinths to take before and after measurements. I still have the spikes in their nice box stored in the turntable cabinet. I'll even buy you guys a drink. Until then, though, I see no need to risk marring my speakers or damaging my carpet for something that is obviously illogical.
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Thanks, Patrick. I suppose that could be a valid argument if ones floor is lumpy. Since I live in Holladay and not a third world country, my basement floor is concrete and flat, not dirt, and is covered with padding and carpet. So, my speakers are level and don't rock. They require a fair amount of effort to move even on the casters. And, since when are the 800D2s "older"? The D3s haven't even been released yet, have they?



Don't mean to rude, but that makes no sense at all. I regard that train of thought as the same as I do many other audiophile theories, ie, flooby dust. If you look at the Stereophile review on these speakers, you'll find that according to the accelerometer readings the cabinets have essentially no resonances and hence no vibrations. Now, if my speakers vibrated like a coffee grinder, you'd have a very good point. The less your speaker cabinets vibrate, the less improvement you'll see by spiking. One must also realize that the only vibrations that could be transmitted through spikes to the floor are those that are present at the plinth. One must demonstrate significant plinth vibrations if one expects to realize any benefit by spiking. Any internal vibrations that do not transmit to the plinth itself will not be affected.

If you and Patrick would like to come on over and lift these 225# speakers so we can spike them, we could do some sighted A-B testing. We could even attach accelerometers to the plinths to take before and after measurements. I still have the spikes in their nice box stored in the turntable cabinet. I'll even buy you guys a drink. Until then, though, I see no need to risk marring my speakers or damaging my carpet for something that is obviously illogical.
An inert speaker is better than a plastic Bose enclosure, but it can still benefit from spikes. How much of this benefit you can hear in your system/set-up is a personal issue. It may be obviously illogical to you, but mechanical physics is real!

BTW, you have fantastic speakers, enjoy them!
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I can attest to vibrations being transmitted into the floor with the 800s. You may not notice since you are on concrete but my set is on the second story of my house. When the speakers were coupled to the floor with the spikes the transmitted vibrations could be felt in the floor. Now I am running decoupled and it is much different. Will you notice a difference? I don't know.

I don't believe any one solution will work for everyone. I have heard arguments that if you are on concrete you should still anchor the speakers. Some have argued the speaker can move back and forth ever so slightly, enough to alter the driver alignment casing a slight smearing of the sound. Sounds possible I guess, not my theory.

B&W also believes that bass vibrations travel along the cabinet. They have put effort into decoupling the tweeter with a gel cushion to reduce external interference.

I feel this subject has been beat to death. Different opinions on spikes, Coupling/ Decoupling.

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post #22973 of 22974 Unread Today, 01:00 PM
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Thanks, Patrick. I suppose that could be a valid argument if ones floor is lumpy. Since I live in Holladay and not a third world country, my basement floor is concrete and flat, not dirt, and is covered with padding and carpet. So, my speakers are level and don't rock. They require a fair amount of effort to move even on the casters. And, since when are the 800D2s "older"? The D3s haven't even been released yet, have they?
My floors are also concrete and covered with carpet. However, when I placed a long level against the speaker backs (on that great looking aluminum column) they were both definitely out of level. The speakers were tilted forward. I used the spikes to also level the speakers. Indeed, Patrick's comments (many posts ago) on the importance of leveling the speakers is why I went to the effort to use the spikes. Thanks for the advice Patrick, it did help.

Off to get a new receiver.....
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post #22974 of 22974 Unread Today, 01:34 PM
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The spiking issue is indeed controversial. If your speakers are essentially inert, which is every manufacturer's goal, that doesn't mean they cannot incite resonances in your room. I know the main entrance door to my home theater resonates a couple of Hz higher than the back door, the bottles in my wine closet just outside the theater resonate at a different frequency. I can pretty much induce resonance two floors above my theater, at least according to my wife.

Once again, if there is no vibration present at the plinth, or more specifically, at the point of attachment of your spikes, coupling your speakers to the floor is moot. Spikes cannot possibly transmit vibrations to the floor when none exist. The only real question is at what point vibrations, if present, can cause audible differences. That sets a rather high bar, IMO.

Certainly leveling your speakers is a good idea if they are out of plumb, but even then small degrees of error may not be audible because of the dispersion characteristics of the speakers in question.

Of course, these are just my thoughts. As NagsAudio says, mechanical physics is real. Vibrations can be measured. If you attribute changes in sound to spiking your gear and reducing vibrations, one should be able to quantify the vibrations before and after spiking. Sounds like an interesting experiment, and I think it will once again demonstrate the power of expectation bias. However, if you wish to spike your speakers, use fancy hookup wire, cable elevators, etc, there's no harm done. It's a hobby, just have fun. I'm not looking to be rude or insult anybody, I just take a pragmatic, hopefully scientific approach to these issues.
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