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post #24391 of 24858 Old 12-25-2016, 07:26 PM
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The 805S Nautilus is looking good to me. My ears can't hear diamonds anyway
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post #24392 of 24858 Old 12-25-2016, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
I prefer 3-way too, but... I'm looking at good condition used B&W Nautilus 805 non diamond models for $1500 or less. Even the $$$ used pairs of CDM1 SE or CDM 1NT would be an incremental improvement over my system.

I didn't see anything in their other lines (new) that I liked or could afford.

Here are the top of the 800 lines over the years
We have two generations of the four pictured. The 801S3s still hold their own, IMO. My wife prefers them to the 800D2s. They're obviously different, but it's difficult for me to say which I like better. I can definitely say the top of the line is the way to go if you can swing it. Looking back 10 years from now, you'll be glad you did.
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post #24393 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
We have two generations of the four pictured. The 801S3s still hold their own, IMO. My wife prefers them to the 800D2s. They're obviously different, but it's difficult for me to say which I like better. I can definitely say the top of the line is the way to go if you can swing it. Looking back 10 years from now, you'll be glad you did.
I like the overall look of the second one from the left. The D2 looks better except for the toe breaker platform. The Matrix 801S3 is just starting to become affordable for me, but I want the Nautilus tech. Most sellers don't want to ship.
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post #24394 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
I like the overall look of the second one from the left. The D2 looks better except for the toe breaker platform. The Matrix 801S3 is just starting to become affordable for me, but I want the Nautilus tech. Most sellers don't want to ship.
I don't know how many of the 801S3s are out there, much less available. My are walnut, Serial #923 and 924. I wonder how many were made. Patrick? I think the woofer material was the same that they used up until the D3s, but am not sure. The midrange is kevlar, current again until the D3. The tweeter is aluminum, I think. Not sure why we really needed the diamond tweeter, which is good to 70kHz. My hearing cuts out around 14kHz, and there are really very few recordings that contain any useful information in that range anyway.

I like the plinth on the D2s. It protects the bottom of the speaker from incidental contacts. Haven't broken a toe yet, and it goes nicely with the gloss black.
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post #24395 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
Not sure why we really needed the diamond tweeter, which is good to 70kHz. My hearing cuts out around 14kHz, and there are really very few recordings that contain any useful information in that range anyway.
Sound are waves; the high frequency "waves" affect the sound-waves in our audible range of sound. Hence sound in 40kHz will affect the sound below 20kHz as well. My ears stops at 16-17kHz, but I can still hear difference when cutting sound above 20kHz (when source is for example 24bit/96kHz).

Edit:
To be clear; if you have sound only below 20kHz and add a single frequency at 40kHz; you will not hear any difference. But multiple waves at different frequency above 20kHz can as a sum lead to audible difference when the total of frequencies above 20Khz affect the sound-curve below 20kHz. So removing everything above 20kHz will lead to missing upper harmonics that for us represent the sound of a specific instrument.

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Last edited by Berland; 12-26-2016 at 08:28 AM.
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post #24396 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 08:33 AM
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Hi Jon,

I have no information regarding how many 801S3s were produced. The 801S3 used a Cobex woofer, the Nautilus 801 used a paper/kevlar woofer and the 801D used a Rohacell bass driver. As you know, that was the last version of the 801 produced. The kevlar mid used in the 801S3 is not the same as used in later versions of the 801. In addition to the usual changes in motor, basket and suspension, the way Kevlar was treated also changed over time for better performance.

Regarding the tweeter, the principle advantage of diamond (or even our current double dome aluminum tweeters) over the 801S3 tweeter is a higher frequency breakup point. Sure, you can't hear anything north of 20kHz, but you sure can hear the result of a rigid dome breaking up outside of the human hearing range. Push that breakup out to 70kHz, and everything that we can hear is that much cleaner in presentation. It's all about reducing distortion in the range we can perceive.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

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Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
I don't know how many of the 801S3s are out there, much less available. My are walnut, Serial #923 and 924. I wonder how many were made. Patrick? I think the woofer material was the same that they used up until the D3s, but am not sure. The midrange is kevlar, current again until the D3. The tweeter is aluminum, I think. Not sure why we really needed the diamond tweeter, which is good to 70kHz. My hearing cuts out around 14kHz, and there are really very few recordings that contain any useful information in that range anyway.

I like the plinth on the D2s. It protects the bottom of the speaker from incidental contacts. Haven't broken a toe yet, and it goes nicely with the gloss black.
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post #24397 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 11:00 AM
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Hi guys, I am Thinking o buiying 2 M60 speakers for my desktop and i would liike to know what do i need in order to connect them to my desktop. My sound card is an Asus Essence STX ll
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post #24398 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Regarding the tweeter, the principle advantage of diamond (or even our current double dome aluminum tweeters) over the 801S3 tweeter is a higher frequency breakup point. Sure, you can't hear anything north of 20kHz, but you sure can hear the result of a rigid dome breaking up outside of the human hearing range. Push that breakup out to 70kHz, and everything that we can hear is that much cleaner in presentation. It's all about reducing distortion in the range we can perceive.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America
This makes a very good argument for the Diamond tweeter technology. Thanks for pointing this out.
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post #24399 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Hi Jon,

I have no information regarding how many 801S3s were produced.
Do you think B&W has that information? I'm curious. The MSRP when we bought ours was ~$5500/pair, so I wonder how many pair were sold.

Quote:
The 801S3 used a Cobex woofer, the Nautilus 801 used a paper/kevlar woofer and the 801D used a Rohacell bass driver. As you know, that was the last version of the 801 produced. The kevlar mid used in the 801S3 is not the same as used in later versions of the 801. In addition to the usual changes in motor, basket and suspension, the way Kevlar was treated also changed over time for better performance.
Thanks for the rundown, Patrick. I thought the 800D2s used Rohacell for the base drivers, too?

Quote:
Regarding the tweeter, the principle advantage of diamond (or even our current double dome aluminum tweeters) over the 801S3 tweeter is a higher frequency breakup point. Sure, you can't hear anything north of 20kHz, but you sure can hear the result of a rigid dome breaking up outside of the human hearing range. Push that breakup out to 70kHz, and everything that we can hear is that much cleaner in presentation. It's all about reducing distortion in the range we can perceive.
I fried my tweeters once, using test tones. I think I was at 4000Hz. Turns out it was a very bad idea, and it sure was audible. Even more remarkable was the silence that ensued. I've heard the above argument before, as well as what Berland posted regarding the impact of frequencies well above the audible spectrum interfering with lower frequencies. I'm a bit skeptical about the audibility of those effects. As I said above, my wife actually prefers the 801S3s to the 800D2s. How many improvements have been made between the two series? Given all the changes in materials, motors, spiders, crossovers, cabinets, etc, one would think it wouldn't even be close. Yet, it appears to be. Food for thought.

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Regards,

Patrick
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post #24400 of 24858 Old 12-26-2016, 10:04 PM
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Be aware that the CD of Adele's "25" is actually not-too-good. I get a fair bit of sibilance with that one that I don't get with any other artist. My speakers aren't B&W but apparently I'm not alone with that problem.
Adele's 25 is no worse than most new releases; as always some dynamic compression and they seem to have opted for roomy sound (most likely intensionally).

Should how-ever not be any distortion of voice. Sounds "good" and as producers have planned on my Audeze LCD-4 rev2 (on Moon 430HA amplifier and Schiit Yggdrasil DAC). Very similar sound from my B&W 803 D2 on Classe amplifier (in sound-treated room). Of course; LCD-4 rev2 beats the 803 D2, but not by very much actually.

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post #24401 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 07:08 AM
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Hi Jon,

I'll see if I can run down the data on how many pairs were produced of 801S3. The 800D2 used a Rohacell bass driver, but it was different than Rohacell bass driver used in the 800D. Different dust cap, motor, suspension and I think the chassis was also different.

One of the biggest mysteries in audio for me is personal preference. All things being equal (two systems working equally well in the same room) some just prefer a different presentation of music. I liken it to the preference that some show to older cars, which tend to be preferred for their personality.

One person's personality is another's deficiency. Our modern products do a better job of getting out of the way than older ones like the 801S3. As an engineering company, that's the way it should be. Whether or not a listener will prefer to hear their music less colored by the loudspeaker is another matter altogether.

Per our white paper on the development of the diamond tweeter:

"It should be remembered that deviation from piston-like behaviour does not suddenly happen when the break-up resonance frequency is reached. It builds up from a much lower frequency. It is similar to the effect of anti-aliassing filters used in digital recording. Those have cut-off frequencies above the accepted limit of human hearing, but deviations in the phase and associated group delay begin well below 20kHz. It is the shifting of these build up effects well above the limit of hearing that is most important." The appendix of the paper is particularly interesting regarding the more technical aspects of aluminum versus diamond tweeters.



Best regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
Do you think B&W has that information? I'm curious. The MSRP when we bought ours was ~$5500/pair, so I wonder how many pair were sold.



Thanks for the rundown, Patrick. I thought the 800D2s used Rohacell for the base drivers, too?



I fried my tweeters once, using test tones. I think I was at 4000Hz. Turns out it was a very bad idea, and it sure was audible. Even more remarkable was the silence that ensued. I've heard the above argument before, as well as what Berland posted regarding the impact of frequencies well above the audible spectrum interfering with lower frequencies. I'm a bit skeptical about the audibility of those effects. As I said above, my wife actually prefers the 801S3s to the 800D2s. How many improvements have been made between the two series? Given all the changes in materials, motors, spiders, crossovers, cabinets, etc, one would think it wouldn't even be close. Yet, it appears to be. Food for thought.
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post #24402 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Hi Jon,

I'll see if I can run down the data on how many pairs were produced of 801S3. The 800D2 used a Rohacell bass driver, but it was different than Rohacell bass driver used in the 800D. Different dust cap, motor, suspension and I think the chassis was also different.

One of the biggest mysteries in audio for me is personal preference. All things being equal (two systems working equally well in the same room) some just prefer a different presentation of music. I liken it to the preference that some show to older cars, which tend to be preferred for their personality.

One person's personality is another's deficiency. Our modern products do a better job of getting out of the way than older ones like the 801S3. As an engineering company, that's the way it should be. Whether or not a listener will prefer to hear their music less colored by the loudspeaker is another matter altogether.

Per our white paper on the development of the diamond tweeter:

"It should be remembered that deviation from piston-like behaviour does not suddenly happen when the break-up resonance frequency is reached. It builds up from a much lower frequency. It is similar to the effect of anti-aliassing filters used in digital recording. Those have cut-off frequencies above the accepted limit of human hearing, but deviations in the phase and associated group delay begin well below 20kHz. It is the shifting of these build up effects well above the limit of hearing that is most important." The appendix of the paper is particularly interesting regarding the more technical aspects of aluminum versus diamond tweeters.



Best regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America
Thanks, Patrick. Yes, personal preference is impossible to predict, or deny. Variations from the original source can be pleasing. I suppose that's why Photoshop exists. The 801S3s may vary from the original performance more than recent designs, but at least for some may be preferable. I'm on the fence, as the major difference I hear is in the bass region. I don't hear much difference in the midrange or higher. In fact, I can dial in a bit of subwoofer with the 800D2s and make them sound very close to the 801s. I generally use the sub just for movies, so one could argue that the 801s are actually better for a home theater application. But they don't fit in my room, so the point is moot. Bottom line, I feel very fortunate to own both speakers. They're wonderful in different ways, both make me smile when I listen to them.

One must remember that the speakers are just the last link in the chain of music reproduction. Not counting the room interactions, the hearing of the listener, of course. So, thinking back to the beginning, the source material, you must consider the recording. How many performances will produce ultra high frequency harmonics powerful enough to distort lower frequencies? Which instruments? What pieces of music? What is the frequency response of recording microphones? Do any of them actually record harmonics above 20kHz? I suppose one would need a frequency response graph to know, but if they're not picked up by the mic, they won't be on the CD. But, then again, even if present on the CD, how important are they? How much energy do they have? Why would anybody presume that a harmonic at 40kHz, 6dB or more down, would influence tweeter behavior more than the audible frequencies produced by the other drivers?

This is a complex subject, with many unknowns. Postulating that moving a tweeter's break up frequency to 70kHz from 30kHz will improve sound quality justifies the diamond tweeter development in a white paper. But the null hypothesis would be that it will not. Disproving that null hypothesis would require blinded listening tests, which I'm sure will never happen. Skepticism has a valid place in the discussion.

Thanks again,

Jon
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post #24403 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 12:42 PM
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Hi Jon,

All interesting questions. Engineering and psychological research are different fields, and we specialize in the former and not the later. When it comes to people's opinions about what they like, I find it pointless to argue with them. We like what we like.

There are any number of projects over the years that have resulted in dead-ends regardless of how good they looked in theory or on paper. That said, there is generally a strong correlation between the physics and better performance. In addition to raising the breakup frequency, the diamond tweeter also exhibits better impulse response well below 20kHz. That might be one of the reasons why a diamond tweeter performs better with a classic red-book cd than an aluminum dome with no high frequency content above 22kHz. Below 20kHz, a better piston is merely that. That's probably part of the reason why I prefer the tweeter in a pair of CM10 over any 800 Matrix Series 3 product.

Good listening, and all the best for 2017,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
Thanks, Patrick. Yes, personal preference is impossible to predict, or deny. Variations from the original source can be pleasing. I suppose that's why Photoshop exists. The 801S3s may vary from the original performance more than recent designs, but at least for some may be preferable. I'm on the fence, as the major difference I hear is in the bass region. I don't hear much difference in the midrange or higher. In fact, I can dial in a bit of subwoofer with the 800D2s and make them sound very close to the 801s. I generally use the sub just for movies, so one could argue that the 801s are actually better for a home theater application. But they don't fit in my room, so the point is moot. Bottom line, I feel very fortunate to own both speakers. They're wonderful in different ways, both make me smile when I listen to them.

One must remember that the speakers are just the last link in the chain of music reproduction. Not counting the room interactions, the hearing of the listener, of course. So, thinking back to the beginning, the source material, you must consider the recording. How many performances will produce ultra high frequency harmonics powerful enough to distort lower frequencies? Which instruments? What pieces of music? What is the frequency response of recording microphones? Do any of them actually record harmonics above 20kHz? I suppose one would need a frequency response graph to know, but if they're not picked up by the mic, they won't be on the CD. But, then again, even if present on the CD, how important are they? How much energy do they have? Why would anybody presume that a harmonic at 40kHz, 6dB or more down, would influence tweeter behavior more than the audible frequencies produced by the other drivers?

This is a complex subject, with many unknowns. Postulating that moving a tweeter's break up frequency to 70kHz from 30kHz will improve sound quality justifies the diamond tweeter development in a white paper. But the null hypothesis would be that it will not. Disproving that null hypothesis would require blinded listening tests, which I'm sure will never happen. Skepticism has a valid place in the discussion.

Thanks again,

Jon
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I posted the below in speakers thread but thought might get more input here.
Hello guys, I tried searching online for the difference between cm9 s1 and cm9 s2 but couldn't find any good article.
Came across a dealer selling used CM9 S1 for $1600 a pair. It comes with 5 year warranty from dealer. With used center (smaller one), he is asking $2000. I told him I am not interested in the center as I like the bigger CM S2 which I can buy new (10% discount).
Came across another person selling 2 804S, 1 HTM4 center, 2 ASW610 subs, 2 rear wall speakers, rotel tuner/amp all for $5000 (all 7 year old single owner).
So my questions are,
1. which used system is better?
2. also what is the difference between cm9 s1 and cm9 s2?
Any input or advise is appreciated.
Thanks
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post #24405 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 04:20 PM
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I posted the below in speakers thread but thought might get more input here.
Hello guys, I tried searching online for the difference between cm9 s1 and cm9 s2 but couldn't find any good article.
Came across a dealer selling used CM9 S1 for $1600 a pair. It comes with 5 year warranty from dealer. With used center (smaller one), he is asking $2000. I told him I am not interested in the center as I like the bigger CM S2 which I can buy new (10% discount).
Came across another person selling 2 804S, 1 HTM4 center, 2 ASW610 subs, 2 rear wall speakers, rotel tuner/amp all for $5000 (all 7 year old single owner).
So my questions are,
1. which used system is better?
2. also what is the difference between cm9 s1 and cm9 s2?
Any input or advise is appreciated.
Thanks
I responded to your other thread. You will probably get more responses here with "B&W-centric" questions.
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CM6 S2 vs 805S
Which will sound better overall with a full range of music?

A used 805S in good condition will cost about the same as a new CM6 S2.
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Need advice on wire selection for 802D3 and Mac MC452: My room requires an in-wall and in-ceiling run of approximately 35'+ between components. Currently, I have type 4 ran which powered my old CM10's. I imagine the new gear needs something better, yet with the long runs, I'm not ready to plunk down thousands on over-marketed cabling. What would be a quality bulk spool type, Audioquest I assume, to run and terminate with banana plugs? Is material gauge the most important factor? Thank you....
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post #24408 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 350banshee View Post
Need advice on wire selection for 802D3 and Mac MC452: My room requires an in-wall and in-ceiling run of approximately 35'+ between components. Currently, I have type 4 ran which powered my old CM10's. I imagine the new gear needs something better, yet with the long runs, I'm not ready to plunk down thousands on over-marketed cabling. What would be a quality bulk spool type, Audioquest I assume, to run and terminate with banana plugs? Is material gauge the most important factor? Thank you....
I am fond of Blue Jeans Cable - no-nonsense, high quality cabling at a fair price (they use mostly Belden for their speaker wire). Material gauge and quality construction are the important factors.
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I am fond of Blue Jeans Cable - no-nonsense, high quality cabling at a fair price (they use mostly Belden for their speaker wire). Material gauge and quality construction are the important factors.
Thanks! Is there a certain gauge desirable for high current systems, 12,10, etc?
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post #24410 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 07:37 PM
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Thanks! Is there a certain gauge desirable for high current systems, 12,10, etc?
Required gauge depends on the impedance of your speakers, and the length of the cable run.I found a handy chart here:

http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/..._300/2521/7034
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post #24411 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 08:37 PM
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How many watts per channel is "high current"? I figure if my toaster oven can pull 1500 watts at 120 volts, or my wife's urban assault vacuum cleaner can pull a 12 amp load on the same size circuit both on 16 gauge, I'm already far into massive overkill with Monoprice 12 gauge speaker wire on my system. The receiver may get warm to the touch at sustained high volume, the speaker wires have never been anything but dead cold.

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post #24412 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
CM6 S2 vs 805S
Which will sound better overall with a full range of music?

A used 805S in good condition will cost about the same as a new CM6 S2.
Close call. I would be inclined to go with the 805S. However, the CM6 is pretty impressive and has similar specs. In addition the CM6 tweeter extends to 28 kHz compared to the 22 kHz of the 805S which may or may not be a factor considering Patrick's previous comments.
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post #24413 of 24858 Old 12-27-2016, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post
Close call. I would be inclined to go with the 805S. However, the CM6 is pretty impressive and has similar specs. In addition the CM6 tweeter extends to 28 kHz compared to the 22 kHz of the 805S which may or may not be a factor considering Patrick's previous comments.
Well the CM6 S2 does have the 'double dome aluminum tweeter' while the 805S isn't even a diamond dome. I sure love the looks of that wood veneer and curves on the 805S. The CM6 is too boxy looking to me. It doesn't look bad, just not my cup of tea. I also wish the port was out of the front and not the back.

If I was to get a floor standing speaker, the $4k CM10 S2 is immensely more affordable.

Last edited by Steve Hanna; 12-27-2016 at 10:34 PM.
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post #24414 of 24858 Old 12-28-2016, 06:05 AM
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Hi guys, I am Thinking o buiying 2 M60 speakers for my desktop and i would like to know if i can connect them to my z5500 sub ( i will upgrade later). My sound card is an Asus Essence STX ll
Anyone, please ?
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post #24415 of 24858 Old 12-28-2016, 06:19 AM
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The 805S Nautilus is looking good to me. My ears can't hear diamonds anyway
The 805's are still one of my all time favorites.
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post #24416 of 24858 Old 12-28-2016, 06:32 AM
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The 805S also has the advantage of a much more substantial cabinet. Matrix bracing and the curved cabinet make for a quieter structure than CM6S2.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Well the CM6 S2 does have the 'double dome aluminum tweeter' while the 805S isn't even a diamond dome. I sure love the looks of that wood veneer and curves on the 805S. The CM6 is too boxy looking to me. It doesn't look bad, just not my cup of tea. I also wish the port was out of the front and not the back.

If I was to get a floor standing speaker, the $4k CM10 S2 is immensely more affordable.
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post #24417 of 24858 Old 12-28-2016, 10:38 AM
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Anyone, please ?
Are you referring to the MT-60D mini-theatre speakers? If so, they are passive and will need amplification.

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post #24418 of 24858 Old 12-30-2016, 09:29 AM
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Hi all,

I ordered B & W 804 D3 shipment should arrive next week.
I did listen with Classé CA 2300 and it sounds "Shouty Sound".

AVS also did a test, and you can hear in the link I've provided what it is.

I'm debating between Hegel H160, and musical fidelity M6si
This is enough power for the 804 D3 speakers?

And I'm going to use only in stereo, I can connect a Blu-ray player to watch movies without AVR?

Can anybody help me please?
Best regards, Kevin
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post #24419 of 24858 Old 12-30-2016, 09:59 AM
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Hi all,

I ordered B & W 804 D3 shipment should arrive next week.
I did listen with Classé CA 2300 and it sounds "Shouty Sound".

AVS also did a test, and you can hear in the link I've provided what it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXKgR8hoRQ

I'm debating between Hegel H160, and musical fidelity M6si
This is enough power for the 804 D3 speakers?

And I'm going to use only in stereo, I can connect a Blu-ray player to watch movies without AVR?

Can anybody help me please?
Best regards, Kevin
Those speakers sound a lot like my iPhone. I think the only Bluray player options left with RCA connections are from Oppo, but that's one option.

Last edited by Williams2; 12-30-2016 at 10:05 AM.
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post #24420 of 24858 Old 12-30-2016, 10:09 AM
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Those speakers sound a lot like my iPhone. I think the only Bluray player options left with RCA connections are from Oppo, but that's one option.
I think that the RCA should be the option.

I think that the NAD can be a good connection.
You talk about the NAD M12 -22?

And thank you
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