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post #24661 of 24688 Unread 02-18-2017, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pancakeplease View Post
Yeah those are killer deals its very tempting. I never heard the q900s so Im considering those.




I'd like to make a slight correction to my description of what I'm looking for after listening to music for the past 3 hours.

It basically comes down to a main thing which is, I do not like vocals in front of the instruments. I'm listening to Tron Legacy, Dubstep and country music right now and it is glorious how real the vocals sound on the monitor audios but I keep finding myself turning up the volume because I want to hear the instruments.

When I meant powerful, it was an ineffective way of describing how I'm feeling when I hear the music coming out of speakers that places vocals primarily in the front because it doesn't sound as strong in my ears. The trumpets, the horns, guitars are all recessed behind the person's singing and that's what I meant.

Listening to dubstep, I would prefer to hear the WWAH WAH WAHHHHH more than the female vocals. So it has a pseudo acoustic feel to me when my main genre is electronic and rock and roll.
If you prefer a more laid back vocal presentation, I would think B&W 600 series will suit your taste better than the KEF Q or Monitor Audio Bronze..

However, if your budget allow, I would strongly recommend audition the KEF R300..

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post #24662 of 24688 Unread 02-18-2017, 06:49 AM
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I'm thinking the type of "impact" wanted here merits the inclusion of Klipsch "Reference Premier" series RP28-F into the mix. Big sound, huge soundstage, in-your-face looks and relatively cheap to buy.

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post #24663 of 24688 Unread 02-18-2017, 02:33 PM
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The dreaded upgrade bug has hit again and I'm looking to upgrade my 16:9 dedicated theater to a 2.35 screen. Unfortunately I'm running into somewhat of a horizontal space limitation. Currently my front soundstage consists of B&W CM9 (S1) and a CMC2 (S1). I love the sound of these speakers and won't part with them, however I really need to either tightly corner load them or move to an in-wall solution to fit my desired screen size.

What is typically considered the best B&W in-wall that matches closely to the CM series?
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post #24664 of 24688 Unread 02-18-2017, 03:02 PM
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Hi BroUK,

We would recommend the CI700 Series, and the CWM7.3 in particular. Barney Miller's in your area can give you a hand.

Regards,

Patrick Butler
B&W Group North America


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Originally Posted by BdoUK View Post
The dreaded upgrade bug has hit again and I'm looking to upgrade my 16:9 dedicated theater to a 2.35 screen. Unfortunately I'm running into somewhat of a horizontal space limitation. Currently my front soundstage consists of B&W CM9 (S1) and a CMC2 (S1). I love the sound of these speakers and won't part with them, however I really need to either tightly corner load them or move to an in-wall solution to fit my desired screen size.

What is typically considered the best B&W in-wall that matches closely to the CM series?
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post #24665 of 24688 Unread 02-18-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
Hi BroUK,

We would recommend the CI700 Series, and the CWM7.3 in particular. Barney Miller's in your area can give you a hand.

Regards,

Patrick Butler
B&W Group North America
Thanks Patrick! Was just in Barney Miller's today looking around .
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post #24666 of 24688 Unread 02-18-2017, 03:05 PM
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They are great people. I'm traveling from Boston to Lexington to see them next Thursday. The great bourbon and hospitality makes these trips special!

Patrick

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Thanks Patrick! Was just in Barney Miller's today looking around .
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post #24667 of 24688 Unread 02-18-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
They are great people. I'm traveling from Boston to Lexington to see them next Thursday. The great bourbon and hospitality makes these trips special!

Patrick
Love good small batch Kentucky Bourbon! Sipping some Jefferson's Ocean, Aged At Sea tonight. I have three bottles, each from a different aging trip a-sea.

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post #24668 of 24688 Unread 02-19-2017, 02:06 AM
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I am looking at potentially getting Trinnov's Altitude 32 with the 3 LCR B&W 802d3's and was wondering about bi-amping and whether anyone here recommends it? Not sure if 802d3 would support active biamping becuase we'd need to bypass the internal crossover, but even that aside I wonder if Trinnov's ability would help here to improve bi-amping performance.
Does anyone here have experience with that? For amplification I'm looking at Classe at the moment.
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post #24669 of 24688 Unread 02-19-2017, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
I'm thinking the type of "impact" wanted here merits the inclusion of Klipsch "Reference Premier" series RP28-F into the mix. Big sound, huge soundstage, in-your-face looks and relatively cheap to buy.
All of my Klipsh speakers , RF 82'S, 63's and 7's were harsh to my ears. They flat put out some power in my bedroom.

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post #24670 of 24688 Unread 02-19-2017, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousDelicious View Post
I am looking at potentially getting Trinnov's Altitude 32 with the 3 LCR B&W 802d3's and was wondering about bi-amping and whether anyone here recommends it? Not sure if 802d3 would support active biamping becuase we'd need to bypass the internal crossover, but even that aside I wonder if Trinnov's ability would help here to improve bi-amping performance.
Does anyone here have experience with that? For amplification I'm looking at Classe at the moment.
In my opinion I would not waste your money on passive bi-amping.

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post #24671 of 24688 Unread 02-19-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
I don't want to reawaken the "all amps sound the same argument," which is too reductive, but I have to push back a bit on this meme that there is some mystical property to B&W speakers that requires high power amps. Unless you are sitting very, very far away, providing 100 amps to one of these CM speakers is going to result in absurdly high decibel levels. You will find that at the vast majority of listening levels, the power draw from the amp is no more than 10, maybe 20, maybe 30 amps. A 100-watt amp is going to provide more than enough headroom to to cover momentary spikes in volume. Having a 200-watt or 300-watt amp doesn't make the sound "beefier" or "louder," unless you are actually clipping when playing at high volumes with a lower powered amp; you're just paying extra for unused power.

There can be good reasons to go with separates; peace of mind, bling factor, a huge room that really does require high power to hit reference level, ultra-low-sensitivity speakers that require high power to hit reference level, or some combination of these; but for the vast majority of situations a 100-watt amp is fine.
This is a good point. I just replaced my Proceed AMP5 for my mains and moved it to the Atmos speakers with a Macintosh MC8207. Now i do like the sound across the 7 channels for main and surrounds from the Macintosh BUT I actually was laughing watching the meters on the Macintosh. I couldn't sit in the room at 40 let alone 100 or more. See my sig line for the setup...802's and 805's.
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post #24672 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 03:16 PM
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In reference to my original post about my CM10s, I have now made some adjustments and I am much happier. I did the following things:
  1. Changed amplifier back to 8 ohms, as recommended by @NETPCTECH
  2. Moved CM10s a bit wider and further forward, away from the walls. They are still in the corners of the room, but with about 1.5' clearance as suggested in the manual.
  3. Readjusted my subwoofer placement and configuration. Changed the HSU's EQ to EQ2, and changed the crossover for the main and surround speakers to 60hz (previously 80hz).
  4. Re-ran Audyssey with all 8 configurations with the tripod on the floor right behind and right in front of the couch, not on the couch like before, as recommended by @Smoothmhz

After making these changes, everything sounds quite a bit better. The bass is pervasive throughout the room without localization, and the speakers sound great throughout their range. Vocals, midrange, and highs are crisp and clear. If I switch off Audyssey I can hear the difference in what it is correcting, and it really makes a huge difference in the room.

I attached two images, the Audyssey graphs before and after the changes. If I understand it correctly, there must be some huge resonance around 100hz in my room, it was having to correct down nearly -20db. After the changes, there is still a dip at 100hz but much less pronounced.

At this point I have had them hooked up for the whole weekend so I am probably developing bias, but if nothing else these speakers are beautiful and make my room look amazing

I am going to take my Denon into a local AV store that has CM10s this week and test using it with a separate amplifier and see if I can hear a difference. I am happy to upgrade and make these sound even better than they do now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NETPCTECH View Post
Also, don't confuse fast bass with bad bass. Most lower end speakers smug the bass because the driver cannot recover fast enough. This is generally not in the source material unless it is a rap song. The bass of the CM10S2s is not extremely deep, but it is extremely fast and requires a fast sub to keep up.
Could you explain what you mean by "fast bass" and "smugging" the bass? How do I know if I have a "fast" subwoofer - mine is the HSU VTF-3 MK5.
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post #24673 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 03:39 PM
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Time to upgrade my older B&W speakers

My B&W speakers are about 16 years old (hard to imagine it's been that long) and I'd like to replace them. I would love to get some advice on what to consider.

Here are the models of the speakers: Center channel - LCR3, L&R - DM303, Rears - LM1. I'm using a Marantz 5008 receiver, and a Polk PSW505 sub that I've been happy with and don't feel like it needs to be replaced right now.

What would be good replacements to consider for the B&W speakers? Unfortunately I need to stick with bookshelf speakers for the L&R ones since it's in our main family room. One of my goals is to get a higher output with the speakers since the family room in my new house is much larger - 20x10 and in an open floor plan with the dining room and kitchen next to it. My budget is up to $3,000.

Thanks for the help!

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post #24674 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 05:17 PM
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Hi frenchmr,

What are your size restrictions?

Regards,

Patrick Butler
B&W Group North America

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
My B&W speakers are about 16 years old (hard to imagine it's been that long) and I'd like to replace them. I would love to get some advice on what to consider.

Here are the models of the speakers: Center channel - LCR3, L&R - DM303, Rears - LM1. I'm using a Marantz 5008 receiver, and a Polk PSW505 sub that I've been happy with and don't feel like it needs to be replaced right now.

What would be good replacements to consider for the B&W speakers? Unfortunately I need to stick with bookshelf speakers for the L&R ones since it's in our main family room. One of my goals is to get a higher output with the speakers since the family room in my new house is much larger - 20x10 and in an open floor plan with the dining room and kitchen next to it. My budget is up to $3,000.

Thanks for the help!
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post #24675 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 05:59 PM
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Hi frenchmr,

What are your size restrictions?

Regards,

Patrick Butler
B&W Group North America
Hi Patrick, thanks for the help!

Here are the measurements of what I have currently:
Center - 6"h x 16.5"w x 9"d
Sides - 13"h x 8"w x 9"d

Here are the measurements of max space, I could move shelves around slightly to get an extra inch or two with the sides.
Center - 7"h x 24"w x 12"d
Sides - 18.5"h x 10"w x 10"d
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post #24676 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 06:28 PM
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You might be able to use 685S2 or CM5S2 in the space. Depth might be the only issue. Either will be able to play a louder than DM303. Each of these speakers has a matching center channel.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
Hi Patrick, thanks for the help!

Here are the measurements of what I have currently:
Center - 6"h x 16.5"w x 9"d
Sides - 13"h x 8"w x 9"d

Here are the measurements of max space, I could move shelves around slightly to get an extra inch or two with the sides.
Center - 7"h x 24"w x 12"d
Sides - 18.5"h x 10"w x 10"d
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post #24677 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler View Post
You might be able to use 685S2 or CM5S2 in the space. Depth might be the only issue. Either will be able to play a louder than DM303. Each of these speakers has a matching center channel.

Regards,

Patrick
B&W Group North America
Thanks, again! So it looks like here are my options:

600 series:
685 L&R - $600
HTM62 S2 - $450
Total - $1,050

CM series
CM5 L&R - $1,600 or
CM6 L&R - $2,000
CM Centre S2 - $700
Total - $2,300 to $2,700

I can make any of those speakers work in my space. What would you recommend for rear speakers?

I'm fairly certain I'll go with the CM series since I'll have the budget to do it, so will come down to CM5 or CM6. For mainly watching movies, will I notice that much difference between the two or is it mostly more precise sound with music that I'll notice the difference?
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post #24678 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
Thanks, again! So it looks like here are my options:

600 series:
685 L&R - $600
HTM62 S2 - $450
Total - $1,050

CM series
CM5 L&R - $1,600 or
CM6 L&R - $2,000
CM Centre S2 - $700
Total - $2,300 to $2,700

I can make any of those speakers work in my space. What would you recommend for rear speakers?

I'm fairly certain I'll go with the CM series since I'll have the budget to do it, so will come down to CM5 or CM6. For mainly watching movies, will I notice that much difference between the two or is it mostly more precise sound with music that I'll notice the difference?
What would be your listening ratio for movies and music? 70:30, 80:20, etc? I would be inclined to go with the CM6 since the budget allows.

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post #24679 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post
What would be your listening ratio for movies and music? 70:30, 80:20, etc? I would be inclined to go with the CM6 since the budget allows.
It's pretty much all for movies, and the kids play video games, but I'm not concerned about that experience.

I agree, the CM6 speakers are the best option, especially since they aren't that much more than the 5s.

So the next big question is what to do for the rear speakers. I have a 7.1 setup, but I'm ok just starting with the side left and right ones first. What would you recommend for those? I didn't see any speakers specifically for rears on the B&W site. Are you supposed to get similar ones to the front? If so, I wonder if I could do 685 speakers to keep costs down.

Thanks for the advice!
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post #24680 of 24688 Unread Yesterday, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
It's pretty much all for movies, and the kids play video games, but I'm not concerned about that experience.

I agree, the CM6 speakers are the best option, especially since they aren't that much more than the 5s.

So the next big question is what to do for the rear speakers. I have a 7.1 setup, but I'm ok just starting with the side left and right ones first. What would you recommend for those? I didn't see any speakers specifically for rears on the B&W site. Are you supposed to get similar ones to the front? If so, I wonder if I could do 685 speakers to keep costs down.

Thanks for the advice!
If multi-channel music were a priority it would be best to have the rear speakers match. For movies only, the 685 S2s would be perfectly fine or maybe even the 686 S2s.

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Hi all
I have bought 2 Crown Amplifier 2502 XLS to power my 803D2. It is an believable.
My question is. Is it dangerous for my speakers? As a class D and it has tons of watts.
What is the difference would be between it and Class'e ca-2300.
Is it huge or just 15%.

Sorry for bad English.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #24682 of 24688 Unread Today, 03:05 AM
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On a similar note I was also looking at a class D amp from Trinnov for B&W 802d3's called Amplitude 8. Since I'm thinking of a theater setting it provides a bit better value and people seem to say great things about the similar Theta Dreadnaught amps. What do you guys think Amplitude as a match to 802's vs Classe?
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post #24683 of 24688 Unread Today, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midblue View Post
In reference to my original post about my CM10s, I have now made some adjustments and I am much happier. I did the following things:
  1. Changed amplifier back to 8 ohms, as recommended by @NETPCTECH
  2. Moved CM10s a bit wider and further forward, away from the walls. They are still in the corners of the room, but with about 1.5' clearance as suggested in the manual.
  3. Readjusted my subwoofer placement and configuration. Changed the HSU's EQ to EQ2, and changed the crossover for the main and surround speakers to 60hz (previously 80hz).
  4. Re-ran Audyssey with all 8 configurations with the tripod on the floor right behind and right in front of the couch, not on the couch like before, as recommended by @Smoothmhz

After making these changes, everything sounds quite a bit better. The bass is pervasive throughout the room without localization, and the speakers sound great throughout their range. Vocals, midrange, and highs are crisp and clear. If I switch off Audyssey I can hear the difference in what it is correcting, and it really makes a huge difference in the room.

I attached two images, the Audyssey graphs before and after the changes. If I understand it correctly, there must be some huge resonance around 100hz in my room, it was having to correct down nearly -20db. After the changes, there is still a dip at 100hz but much less pronounced.

At this point I have had them hooked up for the whole weekend so I am probably developing bias, but if nothing else these speakers are beautiful and make my room look amazing

I am going to take my Denon into a local AV store that has CM10s this week and test using it with a separate amplifier and see if I can hear a difference. I am happy to upgrade and make these sound even better than they do now.



Could you explain what you mean by "fast bass" and "smugging" the bass? How do I know if I have a "fast" subwoofer - mine is the HSU VTF-3 MK5.
The term "smugging" may be a poor description. A better example is the bass you hear coming from someones car when they have large cheap subwoofers. The bass does not start and stop correctly because the bass drivers are crap.

Once you hear a full range speaker that can go down into the 20s, it is difficult to settle for less in the bass. I prefer towers for this reason.
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post #24684 of 24688 Unread Today, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice cube View Post
Hi all
I have bought 2 Crown Amplifier 2502 XLS to power my 803D2. It is an believable.
My question is. Is it dangerous for my speakers? As a class D and it has tons of watts.
What is the difference would be between it and Class'e ca-2300.
Is it huge or just 15%. Sorry for bad English. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No worries how does it sound to you is all taht matters I have all Classé Audio and have been enjoying them

Crown is a different beast
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post #24685 of 24688 Unread Today, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
I don't want to reawaken the "all amps sound the same argument," which is too reductive, but I have to push back a bit on this meme that there is some mystical property to B&W speakers that requires high power amps. Unless you are sitting very, very far away, providing 100 amps to one of these CM speakers is going to result in absurdly high decibel levels. You will find that at the vast majority of listening levels, the power draw from the amp is no more than 10, maybe 20, maybe 30 amps. A 100-watt amp is going to provide more than enough headroom to to cover momentary spikes in volume. Having a 200-watt or 300-watt amp doesn't make the sound "beefier" or "louder," unless you are actually clipping when playing at high volumes with a lower powered amp; you're just paying extra for unused power.

There can be good reasons to go with separates; peace of mind, bling factor, a huge room that really does require high power to hit reference level, ultra-low-sensitivity speakers that require high power to hit reference level, or some combination of these; but for the vast majority of situations a 100-watt amp is fine.
I knew someone would disagree.

For clarification, I am not referring to the sound signature of an amp. I am strictly referring to the power requirements for a speaker. I am also referencing my own personal experience powering two large towers with several lower end AVRs. The mid range and tweeter will often sound the same, but the woofers generally have the biggest change.

After my own unscientific personal experiences, I cannot understand the thinking that 100 watts can drive any speaker. Dynamic headroom is needed to make certain sounds come to life. If a drum beat or sound affect requires 200 watts to sound correctly near reference level, how can 100 watts be the same. I also think back to the McIntosh amp meters that read peeks of 300+ watts when listening to songs. How can an AVR that is rated at 50 -100 watts sound as dynamic.

Now lets look at the extremes to better understand what I am saying. Can a headphone amp drive the 800D3 to reference level? Of course not. But why is this the case. It is because the amp does not have enough power to move the drivers enough to reach those levels. The same thing is happening when you go from a AVR 50 -100watt amp to a 300 wpc amp or mono block. You can also test this yourself if you have a dealer near you and a low level receiver or integrated amp. If they allow you, you can replace their 1000wat McIntosh mono blocks with you AVR on the same speakers. The results will surprise you.

Now please understand that I am not dogmatic in my opinion. This is just a hobby for me. You do not have to agree with my opinion.
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The SSP-900 will be available in March, 2007 at a retail price of $25,000 US.
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Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
Thanks, again! So it looks like here are my options:

600 series:
685 L&R - $600
HTM62 S2 - $450
Total - $1,050

CM series
CM5 L&R - $1,600 or
CM6 L&R - $2,000
CM Centre S2 - $700
Total - $2,300 to $2,700

I can make any of those speakers work in my space. What would you recommend for rear speakers?

I'm fairly certain I'll go with the CM series since I'll have the budget to do it, so will come down to CM5 or CM6. For mainly watching movies, will I notice that much difference between the two or is it mostly more precise sound with music that I'll notice the difference?
Follow up to my upgrade project. After chatting with a few folks from local B&W retailers and a friend who is an audiophile, I have a couple of different routes to go that I'd love to get people's perspective on.

1 - Feedback generally is that I need to go with the bigger center speaker in each line, so this would be CM Centre 2 S2 or HTM61 S2. Problem is I'd need to remount my TV up a few inches to make that bigger speaker work, but I can do that if it is a significant improvement. Is it worth it?

2 - Another suggestion is that unless I use an amp, I won't be able to get the full benefit of spending the money on the CM series and that I would be better off spending the money on 685 speakers with a good amp. What do you think of that? Go with CM with no amp or 685 with an amp? I have a Marantz 5008 receiver with 100 watts per channel.

Thanks!
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post #24688 of 24688 Unread Today, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
2 - Another suggestion is that unless I use an amp, I won't be able to get the full benefit of spending the money on the CM series and that I would be better off spending the money on 685 speakers with a good amp. What do you think of that? Go with CM with no amp or 685 with an amp? I have a Marantz 5008 receiver with 100 watts per channel.
Thanks!
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