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post #24931 of 24949 Unread 06-19-2017, 11:32 AM
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I'll just say in this instance I disagree with B&W. The largest signals are deep bass due primarily to the way we hear (we are much less sensitive to bass so need to turn it up for it to sound as loud as midrange signals -- Google Fletcher-Munson). That means a signal at say 50 Hz may need to be 100x or more louder than a signal at 1 kHz, and that means 100x the power. Setting the crossover lower means more power, more distortion, and all that jazz. I prefer to let the subwoofer do its thing and offload the mains (speakers and amplifiers). Other considerations are placement, since the best place for the mains in terms of imaging and such is rarely the best position for the sub(s) to reduce room modes/SBIR in the bass region, and for ported speakers (like the CM10) the drivers become "unloaded" and thus exhibit higher distortion below the tuning frequency. B&W's answer indicates a fairly low-Q system and/or port tune below their -3 dB spec (I do not know). Still, you have to dump more and more power into the speaker to get it to match volume as it rolls off; a 3 dB drop requires twice the power.

Given such a difference between B&W's opinion and that from an unknown internet poster (me), the temptation is to blow of the 'net guy, but I do encourage you to read about the subject a bit here and elsewhere before deciding. And you can always try both, though it is tricky since the added distortion in the bass often makes the speakers sound "fuller" even though it is distortion.
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post #24932 of 24949 Unread 06-19-2017, 11:46 AM
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Hey avs,

Any tips for an amp to drive a pair 683 s2s? Or any other pertinent info about playing them. Thanks.
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post #24933 of 24949 Unread 06-19-2017, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I'll just say in this instance I disagree with B&W. The largest signals are deep bass due primarily to the way we hear (we are much less sensitive to bass so need to turn it up for it to sound as loud as midrange signals -- Google Fletcher-Munson). That means a signal at say 50 Hz may need to be 100x or more louder than a signal at 1 kHz, and that means 100x the power. Setting the crossover lower means more power, more distortion, and all that jazz. I prefer to let the subwoofer do its thing and offload the mains (speakers and amplifiers). Other considerations are placement, since the best place for the mains in terms of imaging and such is rarely the best position for the sub(s) to reduce room modes/SBIR in the bass region, and for ported speakers (like the CM10) the drivers become "unloaded" and thus exhibit higher distortion below the tuning frequency. B&W's answer indicates a fairly low-Q system and/or port tune below their -3 dB spec (I do not know). Still, you have to dump more and more power into the speaker to get it to match volume as it rolls off; a 3 dB drop requires twice the power.

Given such a difference between B&W's opinion and that from an unknown internet poster (me), the temptation is to blow of the 'net guy, but I do encourage you to read about the subject a bit here and elsewhere before deciding. And you can always try both, though it is tricky since the added distortion in the bass often makes the speakers sound "fuller" even though it is distortion.
You may be right on this and B&W wrong. I did quite a bit of reading.

Also, SVS tech support seems to agree with you, although they suggest 1/3 of an Octave higher than 45 Hz on CM10, not 1/2 or 1. So they suggested setting it at a minimum of 60 Hz, and then moving up (as in higher frequency crossover) from there.

Thanks again.
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post #24934 of 24949 Unread 06-19-2017, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thyname View Post
You may be right on this and B&W wrong. I did quite a bit of reading.

Also, SVS tech support seems to agree with you, although they suggest 1/3 of an Octave higher than 45 Hz on CM10, not 1/2 or 1. So they suggested setting it at a minimum of 60 Hz, and then moving up (as in higher frequency crossover) from there.

Thanks again.
80 Hz is a logical conservative starting point. When I had the CM10S2s I had the crossover set at 60 Hz and that seemed to work quite well (in my listening area).

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post #24935 of 24949 Unread 06-21-2017, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thyname View Post
You may be right on this and B&W wrong. I did quite a bit of reading.

Also, SVS tech support seems to agree with you, although they suggest 1/3 of an Octave higher than 45 Hz on CM10, not 1/2 or 1. So they suggested setting it at a minimum of 60 Hz, and then moving up (as in higher frequency crossover) from there.

Thanks again.
That was definitely an odd answer from B&W. Having said that, it really depends on how you use the speakers. If 90% of your consumption is movies, tv or video games, an 80hz crossover is likely best. But, if you are more heavily into non aggressive music, running them full range without the subs could make you very happy.

I agree with the ideal crossover point for the CM10 when using subs to be somewhere around 80hz. Crossing to a sub at 40hz is wasting a sub and tasking your low freq drivers on the CM10 to do too much of the deep stuff, which will have a negative effect on midbass. Drivers can only change direction so fast.

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post #24936 of 24949 Unread 06-21-2017, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
That was definitely an odd answer from B&W. Having said that, it really depends on how you use the speakers. If 90% of your consumption is movies, tv or video games, an 80hz crossover is likely best. But, if you are more heavily into non aggressive music, running them full range without the subs could make you very happy.

I agree with the ideal crossover point for the CM10 when using subs to be somewhere around 80hz. Crossing to a sub at 40hz is wasting a sub and tasking your low freq drivers on the CM10 to do too much of the deep stuff, which will have a negative effect on midbass. Drivers can only change direction so fast.
Just to clarify, this is for my stereo setup only. 100% music.
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post #24937 of 24949 Unread 06-21-2017, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thyname View Post
Just to clarify, this is for my stereo setup only. 100% music.
Seems like you'd want the crossover set so that the bass response is flat, which means higher than the -3dB point for the CM10s.
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post #24938 of 24949 Unread 06-21-2017, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post
Seems like you'd want the crossover set so that the bass response is flat, which means higher than the -3dB point for the CM10s.
Higher than the 45 HZ? I set the crossover on the subs at 60 Hz yesterday. That's what the sVS people suggested, as well as one of the posters here. I will keep experimenting with the crossover, but I certainly believe that should be higher than the 45 Hz.

Thanks!
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post #24939 of 24949 Unread 06-21-2017, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thyname View Post
Higher than the 45 HZ? I set the crossover on the subs at 60 Hz yesterday. That's what the sVS people suggested, as well as one of the posters here. I will keep experimenting with the crossover, but I certainly believe that should be higher than the 45 Hz.

Thanks!
That sounds about right. It may be even higher, say 80Hz. The difference may be subtle. Seems like you could plot the frequency responses on top of each other to see where the summation remains flat in the transition region.
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post #24940 of 24949 Unread 06-21-2017, 12:20 PM
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Does anyone here own the old classic B&W 801 Matrix Series 2 or Series 3 speakers?

Audiophile fanboy beliefs are based on myth, superstition and ego.
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post #24941 of 24949 Unread 06-21-2017, 08:33 PM
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Ceiling mounted rears

Which B&W speakers can I ceiling mount that will perform well as surrounds with 804d3 towers and the HTM2D3 center? 80% movies / 20% music.

I have been looking for any information on ceiling mounting CM6S2 but I can't find anything.
I am trying to avoid in-ceiling speakers.

Thanks
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post #24942 of 24949 Unread 06-22-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie789 View Post
Which B&W speakers can I ceiling mount that will perform well as surrounds with 804d3 towers and the HTM2D3 center? 80% movies / 20% music.

I have been looking for any information on ceiling mounting CM6S2 but I can't find anything.
I am trying to avoid in-ceiling speakers.

Thanks
I have been looking for the same for Atmos speakers, do not want to do in ceiling.
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post #24943 of 24949 Unread 06-23-2017, 09:32 AM
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Regarding the integration of a subwoofer into a system with CM10S2, the answer to the question about where to cross them over depends on their response in your particular room.

I've done systems where I've run them full range, and others where I've had them crossed over at 50Hz. In the later instance there was a large response null at 40Hz (due to the room), and in the former the CM10s bass response was solid and reasonably linear into the low 30s, and the amplifier driving them was competent.

Regards,

Patrick Butler
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post #24944 of 24949 Unread Yesterday, 05:47 PM
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Question Matching ceiling mounted rears for B&W 804D3 and HTM2D3

I am about to purchase a set of B&W 804D3 towers, B&W HTM2D3 center, and a rotel amp.

I am looking for a matching bookshelf to pair with these that I can mount to the ceiling.

I am considering the CM6S2 but I can't find anything online on how to mount them to the ceiling.

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice on how I could do this or what other speaker would match the D3 fronts?

I have listened to the 685, 686, and multiple in-ceiling models and they can't come close to the D3 fronts.

Thanks!
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post #24945 of 24949 Unread Yesterday, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie789 View Post
I am about to purchase a set of B&W 804D3 towers, B&W HTM2D3 center, and a rotel amp.

I am looking for a matching bookshelf to pair with these that I can mount to the ceiling.

I am considering the CM6S2 but I can't find anything online on how to mount them to the ceiling.

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice on how I could do this or what other speaker would match the D3 fronts?

I have listened to the 685, 686, and multiple in-ceiling models and they can't come close to the D3 fronts.

Thanks!
You will need to find a wall mount with the right dimensions and using a clamp design.
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post #24946 of 24949 Unread Yesterday, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post
You will need to find a wall mount with the right dimensions and using a clamp design.


What do you think about something like an omnimount and drilling the bracket to the back of the speakers? Besides ruining the finish willl I hurt the speaker in any other way?

I'm sure they are at least 5/8" thick.


My wires are in the middle of the ceiling and the closest wall is multiple joists away. I'm trying to avoid making holes and dust with a new baby in the house.

Thanks


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post #24947 of 24949 Unread Yesterday, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie789 View Post
What do you think about something like an omnimount and drilling the bracket to the back of the speakers? Besides ruining the finish willl I hurt the speaker in any other way?

I'm sure they are at least 5/8" thick.


My wires are in the middle of the ceiling and the closest wall is multiple joists away. I'm trying to avoid making holes and dust with a new baby in the house.

Thanks


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I personally wouldn't want to do that. Probably a bad idea and it might affect the sound since you will be placing holes in the cabinet.

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post #24948 of 24949 Unread Today, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie789 View Post
What do you think about something like an omnimount and drilling the bracket to the back of the speakers? Besides ruining the finish willl I hurt the speaker in any other way?

I'm sure they are at least 5/8" thick.


My wires are in the middle of the ceiling and the closest wall is multiple joists away. I'm trying to avoid making holes and dust with a new baby in the house.

Thanks


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I have these that I use with my 685s. I like them because they do NOT leave any marks, holes, etc. in my speakers.

https://jet.com/product/detail/53f61...8-4c291d47f3fb


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post #24949 of 24949 Unread Today, 06:07 PM
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Thanks guys...
Well the shower in this old house has started leaking above the den so while we fix the ceiling we're going to run new bigger Guage wires and 4 atmos channels.

Any recommendations on which atmos speakers to use with the diamond fronts and the cm6s2 rears?

I heard the in ceiling b&w ccm7.4 but wasn't really impressed for the price.

What do yall think about monitor audio CT265-IDC or other speakers that will come close to the so if signature?

Thanks!


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