Oh Gag, Bose Commercial - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude
Consider the attributes of the Lifestyle system (don't know the current number but has the dvd and built-in hard drive)

And then find another system that is :

Visually appealing and very small

Easy to hook-up

Automatic in it's way of storing many of your cd's

Simple enough for the technologicly retarded to connect and use

Zone two capable

Remote controlable , without programming, from anywhere in the house

Not dependant on a computer

Not neccesarily in need of profesional instalation

Completely sold as a one box solution for all entertainment

Reasonably decent sounding

----it can be done but ussually with trade-offs , often needs instalation/programming help, and not for much less.
Exactly...

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post #182 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 11:18 AM
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Exactly, what I find as interesting and or funny are those who buy into the bigger brands never to compare them to other offerings and insist that marketing had no part to play...either that or they buy the big brand and then after the fact go and listen to others and determine that what they have sounds better to them (they already have a vested financial interest)....
Same is true with many people who buy after reading the outside of the box in the store, or hype on a forum, so what's the differance, neither has used their own ears to mitigate the influence of others.

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The reality is marketing effects everyone to some degree, if it didn't companies wouldn't spend so much on it...
A great deal of comparisons of products and physical interaction with them will do an infinately better job of telling you what is best for you, personally.

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My problem is that I hold companies which claim themselves to be
Almost every company does this, some just have the ability (with more advertising dollars or more free forum posts) to do this more than others.
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or are held by public opinion as the "best in class" to a higher standard in some regards than other competitors,
Then this is a problem with public opinion, or their criteria differs strongly from yours....look at ALL they offer, not just the sound quality (or lack thereof).
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it might not be considered fair to the more popular brand but often the price differential more than offsets that criticism and they bring it on themselves with their marketing.
Sure, price is one of the bigger influenes in this game so people constantly are looking for what is AS GOOD OR BETTER for less, and there are some examples in every catagory of product.
As far as the Pen issue goes though, a pen and , to a large extent , a watch, is jewelry for men, and performance has much less value to most, than cache, brand name recognition, and snob appeal.

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #183 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake Sm
Same is true with many people who buy after reading the outside of the box in the store, or hype on a forum, so what's the differance, neither has used their own ears to mitigate the influence of others.
Perhaps, but I have yet to see a single store where I can compare the various makes I am interested in in an environment that gives me the ability to do any sort of reasonable comparison, particularly when I take into account the fact that whatever component I buy will be integrated into my system and my room - this part simply cannot be taken into account in the store.

Speakers, in particular, can sound VERY different from room to room, and being driven by different systems (not to mention the obvious need to have reference material for comparative listening).

When I read a review by a competent, professional reviewer, I have at least SOME faith that he has put the component under test into a system and room that he knows intimately. Therefore, his relative observations have meaning vs. the other observations he has made in similar reviews. Moving from store to store, room to room, and system to system to audition speakers leaves you with a complete inability to do reasonable comparison shopping.

Bose, however, uses this to their advantage as a marketing concept. By selling a 'complete system' in their own brand-specific stores, often with setups that discourage the use of your own reference material, they can give the unsuspecting shopper the image of high performance without ever having to let the shopper hear an apples-to-apples comparison. In this case, I would suggest that 'hearing it yourself at the store' is not only worthless, it actually can give you decidedly incorrect information on which to base a purchasing decision.
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post #184 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai
The price issue is interesting Mat because price itself isn't necessarily an indication of quality or competence nor of the cost to make the product. It can be and is adjusted by the manufacturer to do anything from impart the sense of great value by making it low, or great quality by making it high.
True, but on average I typically only see this behavior (pricing upwards that is) with products that are accepted by the masses as being "market leaders" underdogs or lesser known brands who attempt to jump prices to increase popularity/sales generally suffer from poor sales as people don't bite.

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In another field, there is a company called BAS. They make electrochemical detectors for use in a technique called liquid chromatography. ...... What he did was simple. He jacked the price up big time, gave it a bit of a cosmetic redesign, and it couldn't be made fast enough.
What is "funny" is that I have heard a similar analogy when discussing the merits (or lack therof) of another mass market, overpriced, underperforming brand, the difference was that was a real estate analogy, specifically a piece of property was offered in an affluent area for a reasonable price and no one bought it, the seller jacked the price considerably and presto the house sold in no time...didn't really buy that one as at the time we were in the housing market and that would have never happened...but I wouldn't be surprised if what you say is true, especially given the industry at the time...luckily times change, I work supporting instrument control systems for one of the worlds largest pharmaceutical companies, specifically a basic research site...and I can say from first hand experience while most of the equipment purchased is "expensive", my company does whatever it can to get the most competitive deal, and the scientists themselves with purchasing power are now more willing to consider lesser known companies that are willing to provide support and customization if the "price is right" and they move away from just over paying with the market leaders if they can...but again I view this as a very different industry and marketplace than I would consumer electronics.

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Whether this has any particular bearing on Bose's pricing, I don't know. Bose is a large company with an infrastructure that has to be paid for and that always adds to the price. But I think they could probably sell it for much less although I don't know how that would affect their bottom line. That it's taken so very long for other companies to begin offering very small speakers to meet the particular needs of people speaks to me of their utter stupidity in not recognizing a partcular need of the marketplace. Of particular interest to me, would be a listening comparison, behind an 'opaque' and acoustically transparent screen of Bose's little speakers with things like Orbs, maybe Tykes, Gallo's, and any other speakers that approach the minimalist, single driver preferred, varieties that are out there. What would people say if they didn't know which speaker they were listening to?
I would highly doubt any of that has any bearing on Bose's pricing...more likely they know what kind of an effect their marketing has had on people and they realize that the majority of their buyers will buy on their namesake alone with doing no other research, they know people expect their items to be expensive because they are assumed to be "the best", with your analogy the BAS system's cost didn't keep up with the rest of the industry and instead initially it was a "steal"...

As far as the listneing test didn't Consumer reports try that and get sued?, the sad thing is that Bose will never allow for a sanctioned blind test of their product, which is one reason why they on average don't allow for their systems to be installed in standard demo displays.

I think their size also has nothing to do with their pricing, if anything larger companies typically have an easier time of offering their products for a lesser cost as when buying in volume they save a boatload over the smaller competition...
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post #185 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 07:27 PM
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CR got sued because they commented on how they perceived the sound. Details can be found here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bi...=466&invol=485

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post #186 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake Sm
Same is true with many people who buy after reading the outside of the box in the store, or hype on a forum, so what's the differance, neither has used their own ears to mitigate the influence of others.
Hmm, I don't know about you Jake but I have yet to meet anyone who has bought anything from simply reading the description on the side of a box, nor have I met anyone who has bought anything blind off of recommendations from internet forms, if anything the people that do this are pretty critical and make a good effort to actually demo the product...wheras on the other hand I know many who just go to a store and only look at the supposed "best" brand and nothing else, even when the sales person tries to suggest something else they will insist they are not interested and continue to simply buy that....the power of marketing is both scary and great. Why just tonight I have seen three Bose ads on the television, today while in the car I heard another four for their in ear headphones, and while at the doctor I saw another five in various magazines for wave radios or lifestyle systems....guess how many I saw for other brands?

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A great deal of comparisons of products and physical interaction with them will do an infinately better job of telling you what is best for you, personally.
I agree wholeheartedly, however as someone below said in the case of Bose with their dedicated listening stations this might not be a prudent approach as they themselves are misleading, and demoing at home gets costly unless your place of purchase has a very liberal return policy.

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Almost every company does this, some just have the ability (with more advertising dollars or more free forum posts) to do this more than others.
No doubt but my point is that should we as enthusiasts defend a company that does this and doesn't live up to their hype? personally I think not.

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Then this is a problem with public opinion, or their criteria differs strongly from yours....look at ALL they offer, not just the sound quality (or lack thereof).
Since they are selling "sound" I find it hard to simply dismiss that one critical aspect and instead focus on whatever else they are selling, personally I see their main product being "hype" and "status" with the actual technology and performance being a secondary concern...virtually ever product they sell has rightfully come under fire for being overpriced and underperforming.

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Sure, price is one of the bigger influenes in this game so people constantly are looking for what is AS GOOD OR BETTER for less, and there are some examples in every catagory of product.
Agreed for the most part however I do feel that many buy on name over that of price/performance..which is why companies like Bose do so well, my hope is that consumers do more to educate themselves and at least consider options...however I don't think I will live to see the day when this is widespread.

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As far as the Pen issue goes though, a pen and , to a large extent , a watch, is jewelry for men, and performance has much less value to most, than cache, brand name recognition, and snob appeal.
I would agree, it was just a point that I was making in terms of the bigger brands aren't necessarily the best brands both in terms of product quality and certanly not with regards to price...in fact sometimes they are the worst...though as you said in industries like the pen and watch segments performance for many isn't of the utmost concern where status and image play a larger role...stinks for the companies that truly make great products as often they aren't as respected as the others simply because they don't carry the same cachet with the masses. I might also argue the same can be said of Bose, where because of their marketing they have transcended the necessity to actually perform well as people will buy them as status items, where sound isn't a primary concern.
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post #187 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai
CR got sued because they commented on how they perceived the sound. Details can be found here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bi...=466&invol=485
Regardless it is a similar situation, an independent did a test and made their judgement and put it into print...and the company, instead of seeking other reviews or what not decides to sue the publication..I don't know if that is scary or funny.

What is truly interesting is in going by your link the original review concluded that buyers should seriously consider if they like Bose and their direct reflecting technology before spending money as the novelty might wear off...at no point did it say "don't buy these" or these are a horrible buy, just that they felt the design and the way the speakers worked seemed "different" enough to not appeal to everyone, yet Bose felt that was damaging enough to them to bother with a suit...luckily the court of appeals seems to have found that the petitioner (Bose) couldn't make their argument.
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post #188 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 10:23 PM
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Perhaps, but I have yet to see a single store where I can compare the various makes I am interested in in an environment that gives me the ability to do any sort of reasonable comparison,
Cultivate a relationship with a dealer in your area, you'd be surprised at the accomidations many will make for a nice customer with an appointment during a calm stretch of the week.

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particularly when I take into account the fact that whatever component I buy will be integrated into my system and my room - this part simply cannot be taken into account in the store.

Speakers, in particular, can sound VERY different from room to room, and being driven by different systems (not to mention the obvious need to have reference material for comparative listening).
Many people will tell you that for rooms with problems, don't look for speakers to fix them, treat them mechanically or electronicly and buy speakers that you have heard sound good, not that just good in one room arranged a certain way.

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When I read a review by a competent, professional reviewer, I have at least SOME faith that he has put the component under test into a system and room that he knows intimately. Therefore, his relative observations have meaning vs. the other observations he has made in similar reviews. Moving from store to store, room to room, and system to system to audition speakers leaves you with a complete inability to do reasonable comparison shopping.
Well, I can usually narrow the field buying listening to speakers and positioning them well enough to know if I need to even bother taking them to go face to face with anything else. This can be difficult , but unless you are the kind of person who likes frequently changing his speakers, the reward of find the best ones for you will be worth the investment of time. If you are not investing the time to gain the experiance properly, yourself, then I guess marketing influances should be a concern and I, too, would look for what I believed would be "helpful friends" to mitigate these effects, provided that they, too, aren't another one of those very effects.

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Bose, however, uses this to their advantage as a marketing concept. By selling a 'complete system' in their own brand-specific stores, often with setups that discourage the use of your own reference material, they can give the unsuspecting shopper the image of high performance without ever having to let the shopper hear an apples-to-apples comparison
And a bad idea that is for the customer, without referances of comparison , it's easy for mediocre stuff to seem good to the uneducated ear - why auditioning for one's self alongside of other models is so critical..

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In this case, I would suggest that 'hearing it yourself at the store' is not only worthless, it actually can give you decidedly incorrect information on which to base a purchasing decision.
Just like purchasing and having something shipped directly to your house , when the clock radio is the baseline.

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Hmm, I don't know about you Jake but I have yet to meet anyone who has bought anything from simply reading the description on the side of a box, nor have I met anyone who has bought anything blind off of recommendations from internet forms,
No offense, but you need to get out more. I do have the benifit of knowing how misguided the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE shopping for Consumer electronics are.

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if anything the people that do this are pretty critical and make a good effort to actually demo the product...
Much of the traffic here is from newbies that will post for a while looking for quick answers and validation and then disappear, there is a small group of di-hard chronic posters as well, but I don't even see all of them actually doing as much of their own legwork and earwork.

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I agree wholeheartedly, however as someone below said in the case of Bose with their dedicated listening stations this might not be a prudent approach as they themselves are misleading, and demoing at home gets costly unless your place of purchase has a very liberal return policy.
I don't know about the big places as much (though I believe Tweeter and BB have 100% refund for 30 days) but every independant I know makes good concessions for in home auditions.

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Since they are selling "sound" I find it hard to simply dismiss that one critical aspect and instead focus on whatever else they are selling, personally I see their main product being "hype" and "status" with the actual technology and performance being a secondary concern...virtually ever product they sell has rightfully come under fire for being overpriced and underperforming.
List me out a system like a LS38 and let's see how it breaks down price, performance, features , etc.....Someone already has indicated that it can be a difficult task to come up with something that has the same elements that attracts many to the bose.

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where because of their marketing they have transcended the necessity to actually perform well
They may perform well if your criteria is headed by size, ease of use, and an on-screen display of your very accessable music collection .

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #189 of 432 Old 12-09-2006, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake Sm
No offense, but you need to get out more. I do have the benifit of knowing how misguided the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE shopping for Consumer electronics are.
Won't argue that there aren't alot of lazy people out there, however I regularly post on other boards focused on electronic equipment and on average anyone who asks about something on a site will generally follow up and try to take a first hand look at it for themselves before buying, either that or they will buy from a place that offers an easy return if they aren't satisfied, also they will typically consider other comparable options.

Now those who just go into a store and buy whatever, well that is a different story, though I personally have never met anyone who will just go in and buy the first thing they see simply by reading the box...they will at least look at what is next to it on the shelf...that is unless of course they are predisposed to that brand by prior marketing.

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List me out a system like a LS38 and let's see how it breaks down price, performance, features , etc.....Someone already has indicated that it can be a difficult task to come up with something that has the same elements that attracts many to the bose.
I am not denying it isn't a challenge, but personally I cannot see why anyone would be willing to seriously sacrifice sound for those "features" and especially at that price...I would be curious also as to just how many lifestyle owners even fully utilize their systems

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They may perform well if your criteria is headed by size, ease of use, and an on-screen display of your very accessable music collection .
True but only if you don't mind that the sound comming out is horrible :) at which I would question why bother.
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post #190 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake Sm
Cultivate a relationship with a dealer in your area, you'd be surprised at the accomidations many will make for a nice customer with an appointment during a calm stretch of the week.
I think you just hit one of my issues. My career has me relocating every few years, so it's tough to build that relationship. Frankly, my buying pattern is to get a new high-end item every couple of years, so I rarely end up making a 'large' purchase at the same store twice. [Interestingly, though, I can still walk into the high-end shop in my home town and be greeted by name and offered time with whatever I want to look at, even though it's been years since I've actually made a purchase there. If they carried the lines I was looking at right now, I might make the 7-hour drive to go see them.....]

On top of that, when you want to compare three or four different makes, you often have to go to three or four different shops, so even if you have built up the relationship, it may not be useful for the next round.

For example, I will need to buy a new subwoofer in the next few months. Of the brands I am interested in auditioning (screened based on reviews, specs, and price point), there is NO local shop that carries all three. Since these are so room-specific, I'm really having a tough time figuring out how to make this purchase.

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Many people will tell you that for rooms with problems, don't look for speakers to fix them, treat them mechanically or electronicly and buy speakers that you have heard sound good, not that just good in one room arranged a certain way.
Easy with mains, tougher with subs.

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but unless you are the kind of person who likes frequently changing his speakers, the reward of find the best ones for you will be worth the investment of time.
Agreed - my main music speakers are the same pair I spent several months selecting about a dozen years ago. The surround systems are a bit more transient, since I generally have to leave them when we sell a house to relocate.
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post #191 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 07:19 AM
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Won't argue that there aren't alot of lazy people out there, however I regularly post on other boards focused on electronic equipment and on average anyone who asks about something on a site will generally follow up and try to take a first hand look at it for themselves before buying, either that or they will buy from a place that offers an easy return if they aren't satisfied, also they will typically consider other comparable options.
I find many posting here may purchase ID, having never heard them before, or in the case of traditional brands, but on-line at best price (often PM'd to them by someone else here), or go to a place like BB and CC where a proper audition with similar products is very unlikely.

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Now those who just go into a store and buy whatever, well that is a different story, though I personally have never met anyone who will just go in and buy the first thing they see simply by reading the box...they will at least look at what is next to it on the shelf...that is unless of course they are predisposed to that brand by prior marketing.
Croy Tags and Shelf Talkers are the manufacturers prepared shopping list for you, the average consumer reads down looking for all the gadgets it's supposed to have and at the end is a price for all those features...done.

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I am not denying it isn't a challenge, but personally I cannot see why anyone would be willing to seriously sacrifice sound for those "features" and especially at that price...
It is obviously apparent that you cannot see that, but it is extremely myopic if you believe that others put sound quality as high or are so hard to please with it. To most , clearly, it doesn't sound horrible else it would have been returned, like all the ID brands being sold, in the vacuum of inexperiance almost everything sounds acceptable.
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I would be curious also as to just how many lifestyle owners even fully utilize their systems
Given that the number one impediment to full system usage is a customers difficulty understanding or operating, I would strongly suspect that the Bose's featurers would be much more utilized than those of a system cobbled together to try and emulate and duplicate all of it's characteristics.

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True but only if you don't mind that the sound comming out is horrible
I know it earns a lot of brownie points here saying such a thing, but it patently isn't horrible , otherwise millions of people wouldn't listen to their products. McDonalds couldn't find a lot of repeat buisness selling McDog$hit piles scraped up from behind the dumpster.

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Easy with mains, tougher with subs.
Position and passive treatments for the mains, electronic solution for the subs.
I feel the pain of your unusual circumstances having to move about.

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post #192 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 07:45 AM
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McDonalds couldn't find a lot of repeat buisness selling McDog$hit piles scraped up from behind the dumpster.
It's those little flavorful onions that keep me coming back.

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post #193 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 07:53 AM
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It's those little flavorful onions that keep me coming back.
I thought that was White Castle?

Seeking a speaker recomendation? Compare for yourself or be swayed by others who hear differantly, or by marketing, or just save time and get the cheapest , nicest looking, or smallest.
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post #194 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake Sm
To most , clearly, it doesn't sound horrible else it would have been returned, like all the ID brands being sold, in the vacuum of inexperiance almost everything sounds acceptable.
I am only addressing a few points to cut this down a bit...with the statement above I believe many are "blinded by brand", rather they assume what they hear has to be the "best" simply because of the cachet the brand carries...thus people are more reluctant to conclude Bose blows since everyone else is happy with them...thankfully I have met more and more non audiophile consumers that audition Bose and say "no thank you"...

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Given that the number one impediment to full system usage is a customers difficulty understanding or operating, I would strongly suspect that the Bose's featurers would be much more utilized than those of a system cobbled together to try and emulate and duplicate all of it's characteristics.
I won't deny that, however I also wouldn't be surprised if there are a whole host of badge buyers who don't even use a third of the features in the lifestyle system...they just bought it because it is one of the most expensive things they sell and for bragging rights to their neighbor.

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I know it earns a lot of brownie points here saying such a thing, but it patently isn't horrible , otherwise millions of people wouldn't listen to their products. McDonalds couldn't find a lot of repeat buisness selling McDog$hit piles scraped up from behind the dumpster.
And here comes that Chock Full O Nuts reference again...McDonalds is not charging $15 or even $7 for one of their burgers, they are considered "cheap fast food"...honestly I cannot see any type of comparison between this business model/product and that of Bose...unless you are talking about the laziness factor of the typical customer :)...but from a public perception and price standpoint the two are selling things at the opposite end of the spectrum...the difference is with Mc Donalds you get what you pay for, crap...with Bose you pay a huge premium for the same "crap" :)
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post #195 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM
I think you just hit one of my issues. My career has me relocating every few years, so it's tough to build that relationship. Frankly, my buying pattern is to get a new high-end item every couple of years, so I rarely end up making a 'large' purchase at the same store twice. [Interestingly, though, I can still walk into the high-end shop in my home town and be greeted by name and offered time with whatever I want to look at, even though it's been years since I've actually made a purchase there. If they carried the lines I was looking at right now, I might make the 7-hour drive to go see them.....]
My problem is the small guys typically are driven out of business here by the big box stores, either that or as you said they don't carry every brand I am interested in and thus I am forced to drive around, often only auditioning in store.
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post #196 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 10:33 AM
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And here comes that Chock Full O Nuts reference again...McDonalds is not charging $15 or even $7 for one of their burgers, they are considered "cheap fast food"...honestly I cannot see any type of comparison between this business model/product and that of Bose...unless you are talking about the laziness factor of the typical customer ...but from a public perception and price standpoint the two are selling things at the opposite end of the spectrum...the difference is with Mc Donalds you get what you pay for, crap...with Bose you pay a huge premium for the same "crap"
But again, you are only evaluating on Sound quality alone, and again you say "crap". Your evaluating criteria is out of whack with their target customer for whom ease of use and asthetic design are important factors....again list your system suggestions for what you would have compete with the LS38. Then let's see the trade-offs and "premium" differance.

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post #197 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Jake,
As long as said consumer does not invite me over to listen to their fabulous sound system, all the while believing it is because that is what BOSE told him. and he never heard a decent speaker in his life.

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post #198 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 01:51 PM
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As long as said consumer does not invite me over to listen to their fabulous sound system, all the while believing it is because that is what BOSE told him. and he never heard a decent speaker in his life.
Well, it may be a fabulous sound SYSTEM, without being the most fabulous sound...the system may have elements that make it fabulous to the customer who is easily satisfied with sound. Again, I don't want to listen to it, but my criteria differs strongly from that of Joe Average.

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post #199 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 04:41 PM
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But again, you are only evaluating on Sound quality alone, and again you say "crap". Your evaluating criteria is out of whack with their target customer for whom ease of use and asthetic design are important factors....again list your system suggestions for what you would have compete with the LS38. Then let's see the trade-offs and "premium" differance.
With the LS series and the Acoustimess I am not only considering sound, but also the build quality of the system and components themselves...it has been pretty well documented that the "cubes" truly are "junk" when one considers their construction, and I don't know what revisions were made to the main unit in the lifestyle series, but I do know in the past there were more than a few complains about quality when one considered the price...plus you are talking a totally proprietary system and if anything goes wrong you are stuck replacining it with an OEM component...as well as the "bass module" being underperforming with many needing to add additional subwoofer modules to compensate (though bose does admit their module isn't a sub).

If the build quality of the components was truly that good, or at least worthy of their claims to quality and put it in line with the price then so be it...but as far as I see it we are simply talking about overpricing a poorly built system because they have a "lazy" target demographic :)....luckily for them alot of people put preference on name brand and the criteria you mention.

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Well, it may be a fabulous sound SYSTEM, without being the most fabulous sound...the system may have elements that make it fabulous to the customer who is easily satisfied with sound. Again, I don't want to listen to it, but my criteria differs strongly from that of Joe Average.
Which goes back to my other point, why should we here even consider "joe average" and or defend their choices? especially when those decisions are weighted on factors that have nothing to do with sound reproduction and or truly well made higher end gear?
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post #200 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 06:31 PM
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With the LS series and the Acoustimess I am not only considering sound, but also the build quality of the system and components themselves...it has been pretty well documented that the "cubes" truly are "junk" when one considers their construction, and I don't know what revisions were made to the main unit in the lifestyle series, but I do know in the past there were more than a few complains about quality when one considered the price...plus you are talking a totally proprietary system and if anything goes wrong you are stuck replacining it with an OEM component...as well as the "bass module" being underperforming with many needing to add additional subwoofer modules to compensate (though bose does admit their module isn't a sub).
All of this is only relevant to their customers if both of two conditions apply: one , that the system fails to work, which , as far as I know, they rarely do...and two, if they do fail and bolse fails to repair/replace under warranty or at outrageous cost, which, again, I haven't heard complaints about.

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If the build quality of the components was truly that good, or at least worthy of their claims to quality and put it in line with the price then so be it...but as far as I see it we are simply talking about overpricing a poorly built system because they have a "lazy" target demographic ....luckily for them alot of people put preference on name brand and the criteria you mention.
Ok., again , assemble a system that can do all that Bose can (including features, simplicity of operation, hook-up and instalation) and lets see how overpriced the bose is compared to your system, you play the guru and tell the average target customer of bose how they can get all they have and the "bag of chips" of good sound. Many people who want entertainment like this don't want to have to learn an operating system just to be able to lay on the sofa and watch a dvd, if you think that in today's day and age that someone who expects everything to work with one or two button pushes is "LAZY" then perhaps your right , but Joe Average isnn't going to open up his operating system every time he wants to listen to a CD. 90% OF THE MOVIE AND MUSIC ENTHUSIASTS WANT INPUT, POWER, VOLUME , CHANNEL AND TRACK SKIP, ALL ON THE SAME REMOTE AND THEY CAN'T GET THEIR WIFE TO LEARN MORE THAN THAT.

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post #201 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathew J
With the LS series and the Acoustimess I am not only considering sound, but also the build quality of the system and components themselves...it has been pretty well documented that the "cubes" truly are "junk" when one considers their construction, and I don't know what revisions were made to the main unit in the lifestyle series, but I do know in the past there were more than a few complains about quality when one considered the price...plus you are talking a totally proprietary system and if anything goes wrong you are stuck replacining it with an OEM component...as well as the "bass module" being underperforming with many needing to add additional subwoofer modules to compensate (though bose does admit their module isn't a sub).

So because someone doesn't like the sound that proves it is automatically of poor build quality? It's proprietary system...yes. But that doesn't equal poor build quaility. And this is what I've been saying. If someone wants to say Bose doesn't sound good, that's one thing and subjective. But to say something is junk or that it's of poor build quality, what is that based upon? I can build a better system than Bose for less money, yes. I know because I have. But that doesn't prove that the Bose system in the other room is of poor build quality.

As I've said, I've got 14 years of nearly everyday usage and abuse on a Bose system and it hasn't failde yet. Even a lightning strike that fried a vcr only reset the Bose. The "cubes" have been dropped before and still operate. So please offer proof that the Bose is actually of poor build quality.
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post #202 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 07:34 PM
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I am not saying that ownership shouldn't carry weight, I feel like you that it should...but I don't think someone has to own something to make a determination as to whether or not it is good, it just allow those who do own it to give better long term perspective.
I agree that you may not have to own something to determine whether you want to purchase it or not. You can research it and audition it and make a decision on that. BUT, owners of a product should have a better perspective on long term reliability and quality of the product. Sound is subjective. But whether something keeps breaking or not is pretty clear.

If the premise is the Bose is bad no matter what and that those who purchase a Bose are either ignorant or don't care about sound at all...that premise doesn't allow for fair discussion. It doesn't allow for the possibility that a person researched reliablity, customer satisfaction, and service and made the decision to go with Bose. If they decide it sounds good enough for them, that's not ignorance. With people on this forum willing to pay $10,000 for speakers...the argument of Bose price starts to hold less merit.

If Bose sounded THAT horrible, people wouldn't continue to buy it. If Bose products broke down all of the time, then people would stop buying. If customer service was so bad, you should hear numerous complaints about it...not just a few.

Marketing does affect all of us on some level. But it can't overcome poor customer satisfaction forever. No matter how well Honda would market an Accord...if the wheels started falling off for a high percentage of people then people would stop buying the car.
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post #203 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 08:08 PM
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If Bose sounded THAT horrible, people wouldn't continue to buy it.
With all due respect, this is a poor argument. It's rather like saying that if Kias were cheaply-built, poor-performing automobile, that people would stop buying them. The fact is that amongst auto afficionados, the Kia is a joke. It is ABSOLUTELY clear that a Kia doesn't accelerate anywhere near the way a Mustang does, nor handle the way a Miata does. Same goes for Bose; while there may be features that some non-enthusiasts find attractive, sound quality RELATIVE TO OTHEr PRODUCTS OF THE SAME PRICE is not one of them. People don't buy Kias for performance, and they don't buy Bose for sound quality.

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If Bose products broke down all of the time, then people would stop buying.
Not true. HT speakers are not undershirts - people aren't continually in the market for them. Thus, the timeframe for the impact of quality issues is much longer than with cellphones or even cars.

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Marketing does affect all of us on some level. But it can't overcome poor customer satisfaction forever. No matter how well Honda would market an Accord...if the wheels started falling off for a high percentage of people then people would stop buying the car.
The problem is the life cycle of cars vs. speakers. Cars get traded every 2-4 years on average, while a speaker system can easily be in place for 10 years or more. Bad comparison.
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post #204 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 08:29 PM
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With all due respect, this is a poor argument. It's rather like saying that if Kias were cheaply-built, poor-performing automobile, that people would stop buying them. The fact is that amongst auto afficionados, the Kia is a joke. It is ABSOLUTELY clear that a Kia doesn't accelerate anywhere near the way a Mustang does, nor handle the way a Miata does. Same goes for Bose; while there may be features that some non-enthusiasts find attractive, sound quality RELATIVE TO OTHEr PRODUCTS OF THE SAME PRICE is not one of them. People don't buy Kias for performance, and they don't buy Bose for sound quality..
It is no poorer of an argument then a person who buys Bose MUST be ignorant. Also, Kia is a very inexpensive vehicle in comparison with other brands. Thus people sacrifice other criteria for the low price to get the Kia. I've not argued that you cannot make a better sounding system than Bose for less. But the premise that if a person buys a Bose means that they DON'T CARE about sound...is this truly fair?

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Not true. HT speakers are not undershirts - people aren't continually in the market for them. Thus, the timeframe for the impact of quality issues is much longer than with cellphones or even cars.
I repeat, if Bose products were continually breaking down, people would stop buying them. If a line of tv's, dvd players, etc...if it gained a rep for continually breaking down then people would eventually stop buying them.

As I've said, if someone thinks Bose doesn't sound good then that is subjective. But to label a product is "crap" or "junk"...then PROVE it to be an unreliable product. Prove that a majority of it's consumers, actual owners, are overall unsatisfied with the product.


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The problem is the life cycle of cars vs. speakers. Cars get traded every 2-4 years on average, while a speaker system can easily be in place for 10 years or more. Bad comparison.
Actually, the comparison favors my point. Technology changes and some people often upgrade speakers and equipment simply because it's new. Sometimes we buy stuff just because it's on sale or there is forum buzz. (Ex: INSIGNIA) If most people kept audio equipment for 10 years and didn't buy anything new or different, then some of these audio forums wouldn't have much to talk about. ;) Electronics tech changes faster than overall car technology. So people may be more likely to keep a car longer than a tv or dvd player.

Now myself, I keep everything for a long time. But that's another story.
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post #205 of 432 Old 12-10-2006, 10:34 PM
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For those of you really interested,Bose will let you demo your own CDs in the Bose store. I did and they most of them have the various Krall and jazz cds. The same ones you buy at the music stores. So bring in your own reference disc and compare for yourself. Keep in mind BOSE is make much paper (MONEY......you know the stuff that allows you to buy Porsches) marketing to common people and not to audiophiles. So in reality,it really doesn't matter what we think.
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post #206 of 432 Old 12-11-2006, 05:35 AM
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Which goes back to my other point, why should we here even consider "joe average" and or defend their choices? especially when those decisions are weighted on factors that have nothing to do with sound reproduction and or truly well made higher end gear?
1) Because they are their choices and not yours.
2) What do you care how they weigh their buying decisions? Not everyone evalutates sound quality or puts it at the head of the line. Many think they do but decisions and choices are often mitigated by the harsh realities of things like funds or what the other partner wants. I see nothing to suggest that Bose suffers from rampant quality issues and besides, without access to corporate information, none of us know either. I can point to any number of highly regarded speakers, receivers, cd players, and so forth where there's been some shoddy design work with commensurate failures in the field. Some are well regarded mainstream electronics, some are higher up on the snooty audiophile one. Besides Mat, it's not like you've got a hardon for Bose and have never compromised on sound is it?

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post #207 of 432 Old 12-11-2006, 06:01 AM
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In so far as the idea that Joe Average doesn't "care about sound", we should also consider that many of these people have hundreds and hundreds of cd's, xm radio, and Ipods, and they are concerned with content and aren't so hard to please on quality. A system is a means of delivering content, and the ease of which it does that directly relates to their satisfaction with it. As I sell more Escient units for peoples homes , they comment on how much more music they are buying and listening to and how much more the others in their family are using the (once) HT system for music. Now I could then say, ok., but now your speakers are crap so lets get you some better sound quality, but they'd only see the point if they were using their system a lot more anyway (and may not even care as they are enjoying it more now anyway), in short, it's often the convieniance first. Same can be said for design, I see people who need to get a system in under the wife's objection, or else they get nothing , now aside from the fact that they may be, argueably , not sticking up for themselves and their own desires, keeping their wife happy may factor into their buying decision. All satelitte speakers are a compriomise to the asthetic, it is far easier to build a quality system with bookshelves or floorstanders, but that isn't an option for many, so I try to avoid saying that they are all crap. Tradeoffs, baby, tradeoffs.

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post #208 of 432 Old 12-11-2006, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mathew J
And thankfully so....it isn't that I want to see one best the other overall as that would lead to another bad situation, rather competition in the mass market is good for choices and really good for consumers...a coexistance of two or more competing brands which offer quality products is the best situation IMHO.



However they did and still do with the older set, though now their quality/reliability to put it bluntly "blow" when compared to Whirlpool and GE and Miele as well as even Hoover :)




Barring Tiffany one can buy Montblanc at Costco and other wholesale outlets, Rolex as I mentioned is quite the dictator with their product though, however with more dealers pushing product through grey channels it is only a matter of time before they too see sales at discounters...I would say though that from a public perception standpoint Bose is in line with those brands as they are all seen as the benchmark for their genre by the masses.
Oh please. I can go out to 47th st. right now and get a Rolex for 30% off from about three different dealers.

OK, so why *again* do we need a bigger one?
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Oh please. I can go out to 47th st. right now and get a Rolex for 30% off from about three different dealers.
That might be a decent deal for a gray market Rolex. A good deal on Bose would be around 90% off. :p
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post #210 of 432 Old 12-11-2006, 11:12 AM
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That might be a decent deal for a gray market Rolex. A good deal on Bose would be around 90% off. :p
These are not Gray Market. You just need to know where to shop for them.

OK, so why *again* do we need a bigger one?
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