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post #271 of 986 Old 03-15-2008, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Caaudiophile View Post

Thiel Pricing

Having replaced my three Thiel PCS with PowerPoint 1.2s, I've been disappointed in the resale value of my three year old PCS. They haven't held their value any better than any of the numerous speakers I've owned through the years including high-end models from M&K and Definitive Technology.

That said, I've always been impressed with the Thiel sound.
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post #272 of 986 Old 03-15-2008, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gimp View Post

Having replaced my three Thiel PCS with PowerPoint 1.2s, I've been disappointed in the resale value of my three year old PCS. They haven't held their value any better than any of the numerous speakers I've owned through the years including high-end models from M&K and Definitive Technology.

That said, I've always been impressed with the Thiel sound.

True, not all models will command high resale. It all still depends on sound quality and whether there is a demand for a specific model.

The PCS is a small bookshelf so demand is likely not great. Audiophiles gravitate towards at least the 1.6's and up while non-Audiophiles have many other brands at similar pricing. So the PCS will be tough to resell. The PowerPoint is in-wall mount so used ones must have been unmounted from the ceilings or walls and that will make them tough to resell.

I was not implying the SCS4 will achieve "classic" status like the old Spendor but who knows? My comments were more about the SS1, SS2, 2.4's, 3.6's, 7.2's. These will continue to circulate in the reuse market for a long time commanding a decent price for a long time to come.

Then there is the price range. The 7.2's were $12000 in 2000, went up to $13500 in 2001. By 2002, a used pair sold in 2000 still range around $9000 to $11000. In 2005, I found one on Audiogon for $7500 but with blemish.

Many Thiels including the 3.5's and 2.3's can still be found on Audiogon selling for 33% to 50% of original price. The 3.5's are at least 18 years old. The 2.3 are at least 10 years old.

I bought a set of DefTech BP2000 plus center and surrounds for my parents for $5500 way back in late 1990's, it is highly doubtful I can sell these today for 50% or even 33% of the price we paid. This is not to put down DefTech because it has its place and my parents loved them but that is just the reality of the resale situation.

Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. If someone can buy a brand new set of 7 loudspeakers and 1 subwoofer for $2500, why would they spend $2500 for a single pair of used Thiel 2.4? On the other hand, put a pair of Thiel 2.4 on sale for $2500 on Audiogon, some audiophile out there will surely grab them .
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post #273 of 986 Old 03-15-2008, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caaudiophile View Post

I bought a set of DefTech BP2000 plus center...

Me too! Sold them for about 1/4 of the purchase price after eight years. That's when I first bought the PCS.
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post #274 of 986 Old 03-17-2008, 01:32 AM
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AudioArchitect and Caaudiophile:

Thank you both for your very informative responses to my questions. I learned quite a bit and it's made me want to dive into the Thiel world even more.

I only purchased that Onkyo 805 receiver because that is what was driving the Paradigm Studio speakers I was auditioning and "was" going to purchase.

I have many questions and I don't know whether to post them here or to PM either one of you guys. I noticed that Crutchfield does not advertise the SS1, only the SCS4 and the MCS1. Is the MCS1 used in the same way that the SCS4 would be used? The MCS1 looks more substantial and is more expensive. If I'm wanting to do 5 of the same speaker along with a sub, what benefits do I get from the MCS1 over the SCS4?

is it better to go with one SS2 or two SS1's?

Lastly, since Crutchfield doesn't advertise Thiel Subs or crossovers, I assume that I would need to purchase these items from a dealer?

Thanks! Jimmy
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post #275 of 986 Old 03-17-2008, 03:49 AM
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Was just reading the two separate reviews done by Home Theater Magazine on the Paradigm Signature S8's and the Thiel SCS4's. With respect to low frequencies:

The -3dB point for the Signature S8's is 42 Hz.

The -3dB point for the Thiel SCS4 is 47 Hz.

This is just amazing to me. How can this be? The Paradigm S8 is a floorstanding speaker at 100lbs with four 7" bass drivers. The Thiel SCS4 is a bookshelf speaker at 25lbs and has one 6.5" driver.
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post #276 of 986 Old 03-17-2008, 06:04 AM
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IMHO, Paradigm speakers are designed more for HT; they are not full range. They assume you will be using a sub. The larger tower speakers are designed for more mid bass slam, for larger rooms. I own Studio 60s,with one bass driver, the bass response (on paper) is just a few hz. higher than the Studio 100s (which are similar to the Sig S8s).

It’s not just about frequency response, but also dynamic range and max. SPL at under the audible distortion level.
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post #277 of 986 Old 03-17-2008, 06:11 AM
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Now here's my question. I have an old pair of Thiel CS3.0s that I have had in storage. I'm going to try them in a small office room (which I know is a no-no ) My only source will be a Squeezebox /Behringer DEQ, driven by a spare NAD amp to start.

If I can make the Thiels work in this room satisfactory, later I would want to pick up a mid-fi integral tube amp (under $1000, new or used). Any suggestion? How about Jolida?
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post #278 of 986 Old 03-17-2008, 10:18 AM
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Hi JimmyDaves,

If at all possible, let your ears be the judges. I was only answering directly to specific Thiel-related questions in your posts and not about the general process of finding and matching gear. Nothing beats hearing these things in person, if at all possible.

You can call Crutchfield to find out how their 30-day return policy works with Thiel gear. If the same policy applies, it may not be bad to listen and compare before deciding. You can even just get one of each to try at home.

Crutchfield does offer the SS1 (and SS2). The "Powered Subwoofer" tab (left hand column) on their site leads to all powered woofers and then look under "Thiel". The crossovers are there too. If you do not have a local Thiel dealer, Crutchfield is a good source.

I have not read any of the reviews but if they are all glowing, it may be worthwhile to find one or wait for one that is not so glowing just to see if they pick on anything meaningful. It is always good to know both sides of the coin.

Added:
If you have a dealer within an hour's drive, I strongly encourage paying them a visit and indulge yourself. The MCS1 is over $2000 each so hearing it in a well set-up room, paired with matching sources, will make its full potential apparent. You may find it is NOT for you at all, then you will have saved cash. You may find it is fantastic and want to know more, the dealer can answer any questions there. I respect Crutchfield and have bought from them but it's unclear if their staff have heard Thiel paired with gear like Krell, Anthem, McIntosh, Audio Research, Meridian and others. This also gives the local dealer a chance to earn your business. Trying them at home is nice but it is a long process of ordering, waiting for shipment and having to ship back if you dislike it. Just a suggestion.

Good luck!
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post #279 of 986 Old 03-19-2008, 12:31 AM
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Caaudiophile:

Your comments and suggestions are very appreciated. I was going over the review again in Home Theater Magazine regarding the SCS4's and the SS1 sub. It really didn't occur to me how expensive this setup would actually be.

If you figure five SCS4's at $990 each, one SS1 sub at $2900 and one crossover at $500, that puts me at approximately $8400 not counting speaker stands, cables, etc.

My audio use would be about 85% home theater and I'm sure that this Thiel setup would be an awesome system for both movies and music, but it does get expensive very quickly!

I have alot of thinking to do. I've been reading about other speaker companies raising their prices (Paradigm, Def Tech). With the economy being so unstable and consumer spending down, it just makes me nervous spending so much money just on speakers alone, even though I am able to afford them.
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post #280 of 986 Old 03-19-2008, 06:36 AM
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Jimm
I would agree with Caaudiophile in that your best thing is to go listen. I have had Thiel's for about eight years. I do have the MCS1 for my center speaker, 2.3's for left and right and power points for the surrounds.
I jumped in and ordered the 3.7's and they are on the way without hearing them. Caaudiophile and others had recommend them. And based on my experience and Thiel's rep.
But, with that said you are right, Thiel's are very expensive. But, this hobby if you want to continue to upgrade is expensive.
The only other way is to buy used.
I almost bought a Thiel SS-2 sub from Audiogon a few days ago. But, unless you buy from a Thiel dealer, nothing is covered on the TEN year warantee.
gerry
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post #281 of 986 Old 03-19-2008, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyDaves View Post

...With the economy being so unstable and consumer spending down, it just makes me nervous spending so much money just on speakers alone, even though I am able to afford them.

I absolutely share your views, frugal is always smart. It took me seven years to accumulate our stereo system. I bought used, new, some full price and some on sale. We could have just spent the cash but looking back, I am glad we did not.

As Slots1 suggested, starting with good used gear is a good strategy. Most dealers have sales and some even sell on Audiogon so grabbing a used pair makes sense. We have our pair of used 2.4's for seven years. It may take you a while to see a pair but it may be worth the wait. One possibility is grabbing a pair of used 2.4's or 3.6's to start and then add the SCS4's later on. As long as they are of the same brand, the voicing will be identical so there will be seamlessness to the sound.

Good luck!
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post #282 of 986 Old 03-20-2008, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Jimmy D (and all),

As Matt (AA) has stated the passive x-over is for use with Thiel subs and Thiel speakers. A great sounding combination.

I've heard the SCS-4 and CS 3.7s using the SS-2 sub as well as a complete SCS-4 system at trade shows and its very impressive.

BTW, you don't need to buy pairs you can buy 5 SCS-4s if you like or just 1.

Mike Miles

ICR [ Sales Consulting and Small Part-Time AV shop, very small...  ]

Process Integration, Inc. [ contract sales consultant ]

Eastern Shore of Maryland

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post #283 of 986 Old 03-20-2008, 08:04 PM
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mmiles and all:

I've been on my search for the past 6 months actually and had made up my mind and changed it and went another direction, then went back, then... well you know.

I had kind of forgotten about Thiel even though I've auditioned them in the past, but not in the last 5 years. I've been into hi end audio for about 15 years and have owned Revel, B&W, Atlantic Technology and Aerial.

It wasn't until Home Theater Magazine did a great review in its current issue on the SCS4's and the SS1 sub. I like the idea of having all the speakers identical, but there's part of me that wishes Thiel had made a surround speaker in the same vein as the SCS4.

There are some parts the review that are somewhat vague about the SCS4's. Namely, there's no mention of a sense of envelopment in home theater use. Also, I don't get a sense of the dynamics of the SCS4 from the review as well. I mean, can they "rock out".

I have to admit I like their measured response, especially in comparison to a mammoth speaker like the Paradigm Signature S8. The SCS4's -3dB point is 47Hz, The S8's -3dB point is 42Hz. Not too bad considering the SCS4 is a 25lb two-way bookshelf speaker and the Paradigm is a 100lb floorstanding speaker with 6 drivers, 5 of them larger than the SCS4. (not to mention that the SS1 has a -3dB point of 11Hz). wow.

Jimmy
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post #284 of 986 Old 03-23-2008, 07:26 PM
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In February of 1986 (2/86) I purchased a pair of Thiel CS 3.0 speakers with their included in-line equalizer. In addition, my Tampa Bay dealer sold me a Threshold pre-amp, Threshold Stasis 140W amplifier, and Linn Sondek LP-12 turntable all for just under $7,000 (2750 for the speakers). The only thing I've added in 22-years is an 8-year old Sony CD player.


The Tough News: It's been a 22-year love hate relationship. The Thiel CS 3.0 have been too persnickety. Every home I've lived in except today's has introduced some abnormal sound stage/balance issue. It drove me crazy but I kept everything anyway. The answer was discovered in house 4 when the speakers were given side wall breathing room. Now in house 5 with it's upcoming media room (22'W x 14'L x 10'H) the speakers have come alive; however, with my listening in the 14'L room dimension it may be time to look at smaller speakers.

Over my 22-year Thiel experience I've had 2 drivers go bad and the in-line EQ go out 3 times. The good news - Thiel has repaired or replaced the component at no cost and did so just last month (2/08). Now that's customer service. I had to find a shop to solder in the replacement tweeter but no shop could believe my story - Thiel replaced, at no cost, a tweeter after 22 years. It cost $50 to have the solder work done.

Now that the world has moved heavily into digital audio and the stereo experience can now live with the media room experience - it maybe time to explore new options. My first choice would be to reward Thiel and the April 2008 article in Home Theater Magazine written by audiophiliac.com Steve Guttenberg really got my attention.

Like many other readers in AVS forum auditioning non-mainstream speakers requires a lot of windshield time. Many times it's just not possible. So, if anyone has taken a serious listen to the SCS4's with the SS1 sub using Thiel in-ceilings or SCS4 as surrounds the experience would be worth writing about. Unfortunately today, convenience wins over quality and it's just too easy to hear a pair of DefTech ST (smaller mythos) at your local Magnolia Theater although Magnolia is doing a pretty good job chipping around the edges of Hi-Fi.
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post #285 of 986 Old 03-24-2008, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdlee123 View Post

In February of 1986 (2/86) I purchased a pair of Thiel CS 3.0 speakers with their included in-line equalizer.


Agree with Thiel service. I bought my 3.0s, used, from an unauthorized dealer (they were about 4 years old when I purchased them). Thiel still warranted my speakers at first, and replaced two bass drivers for free. They have also repaired the EQ twice, although the second time did not fix the problem. I did have to later buy one tweeter, which was very expensive.

I had mine in a 23 x 15 room, pulled out from the back and side walls, with no toe in. Had excellent results, driven by an Aragon 8008BB amp, until I slapped a RPTV in between them, then the soundstage went to pot.

Since then have tried both Magnepan MMGs and Paradigm Studios, in this HT system, neither did what the Thiels could do, although my Studio 60s do much better with the RPTV between them. Of course a Plasma or FP unit would help there.

I moved the Thiels upstairs into my smaller office space room, and had to place them directly in the corners, with full toe in, due to closet door locations. To my amazement, they sounded wonderful in there, image and soundstage wise, much better than the MMGs I tried in there first. Plus placing them in the corners reinforced the bass, instead of using the Thiel EQ. Unlike my downstairs HT system, in this room I can add globs of room treatment with no WAF approval. Also, I will be feeding a Squeezebox digitally into a Behringer DEQ2496, which should help.

After years of a combo system, I am now happy to have two separate systems, each with different design goals. When it's time to upgrde the office system, I will be checking out the 1.6s.
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post #286 of 986 Old 03-24-2008, 03:08 PM
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We are debating SCS4 vs MCS1 for HT use. If we end up purchasing the SCS4, will post our impression of it.
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post #287 of 986 Old 03-25-2008, 02:08 AM
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I think the MCS-1 is worth the extra money. I have one as my centre between my 2.4s. Seamless front sound stage.
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post #288 of 986 Old 03-26-2008, 07:21 AM
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Just a quick question, do you think a Parasound Halo A23 is enough to drive a pair of Thiel 3.6?

Thanks
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post #289 of 986 Old 03-27-2008, 01:34 AM
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Seems like a very nice amp. 225W/ch into 4 ohms should be plenty.
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post #290 of 986 Old 03-27-2008, 06:30 AM
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To those who own the CS3.7, how big is your sweetspot? Is it true the 3.7s look better in person than in pictures? How well do they disappear sonically? Does the 3.7s midrange compare with that of the electrostatics?
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post #291 of 986 Old 03-27-2008, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgerman View Post

To those who own the CS3.7, how big is your sweetspot? Is it true the 3.7s look better in person than in pictures? How well do they disappear sonically? Does the 3.7s midrange compare with that of the electrostatics?

I am no professional reviewer so please take what I say with a grain of salt. Our 3.7 have about 150 hours of work but not driven hard so they may need another 150 hours to fully break in. Out of the box, high rolled off a bit soon, mid was recessed, low was OK but disjoint. 10 hours of initial play changed that a bit but mid was still hesitant. Now, everything sounds "together".

Our set-up (not final yet) is 8' apart on-center, no toe-in. Seating position is 9-ft perpendicular to the plane formed by the front baffles of both speakers. Speakers are at least 8-ft away from nearest side wall, 5-ft from wall behind the speakers and some 20-ft of emptiness in front of the speakers. Ceiling is 8-ft. We are still finishing up HT work so the room has low pile of junk laid about but not within 5-ft in front of the speakers.

Sitting 6 ft in front of one, leveled with the tweeter+midrange assembly, I can barely discern sound coming from the drivers. The instruments hover mostly around the speaker, not quite announcing themselves straight from the drivers. The rest of the sound stage remains viable. By 7-ft, the speaker vanishes. On older recording where they split deliberately to R and L, they cannot quite disappear of course. On other shrill recording with prolonged and intense tweeter work, then the speaker can announce itself if you happen to sit in front or near in front of one. It has to be prolonged though to pull our attention over to the speaker. On any decent recording and on good ones, 6-ft is about where it begins to disappear even if I sit in front of one.

I am unsure how to define sweet spot for these speakers; more like sweet zone? I could be all wrong because I have not yet experienced anything quite like it, not even when compared against the 7.2. Starting from the traditional sweet spot in the middle, extend in a line to the right and left all the way out until you sit in front of each speaker and the sound stage remains stable along this entire line. We are the ones moving, the "orchestra" remains where it is; exactly as it should be. Each speaker, at 9 ft away from this sweet line, never calls attention to itself. The weirdest part is to stand up, walk around out of this "sweet zone" and the sound stage remains surprisingly stable where it is. For HT use, we can easily sit two rows and not lose much, if at all. May be there are speakers out there that can do this too, so I may just be outdated but that is what we hear.

Yes, the pictures cannot show off how they look. We have the cherry and Thiel matched the grain on both speakers so they go well together. The grain is beautiful, so is the muted satin finish. The best example I can give is to find a piece of old fine Cherry furniture (Amish furniture) with fine grain, stain it with light oil to show off the grain, no shinny stuff and that is what you get. It adds a lot of warmth to the room. The fitting of the wood is also smooth and tight, no gap and no seams, really nice work. It reminds me of the finish of the Sonus Faber Amati Homage but with a natural Cherry finish. The round black bullet head is fine, my wife was worry it would look weird but no problem .

I have never owned an electrostatic, no way to compare. On a good recording, a violin is convincingly a violin. A piano is a piano and vocals are as real as they get for female and male. Well recorded cymbal work can softly materialize in space as though it is in our room. There is no hint of a driver doing the work. Instruments are the ones making the sound. Dynamics is wonderful, starting and stopping on a dime and plenty fast when needed. It goes down to 33 hz so a subwoofer can help. We do not have a sub yet, we plan to get them to round out the whole spectrum.

I am not claiming it is perfect, just that to my ears, given my limited experience, I have not heard anything like this in our house. We have had a pair of 2.4's for a long time. Before that, a pair of Polk Monitor. In showrooms, I have spent an hour each to hear the Amati, B&W, Martin Logan, Thiel 7.2, and a big name with passionate followers. Thiel 7.2 came closest to my taste but the high was just a tad too hard. These 3.7's are for now, best fit for our ears.

Nothing beats listening to them in person so a visit to a dealer is worth considering. You may not like what I like.

Some CDs for reference:
TELARC CD-80402 : Viennese Violin - The Romantic Music of Lehar, Kreisler and Strauss.
Sony Classical SK66841 : MOZART The Piano Quartets with EManuel Ax, Isaac Stern, Jaime Laredo and Yo-Yo Ma.

We drive them with Audio Research tube gear.

Hope this helps a bit.

[ps. "Sound stage" here means the ability to locate instruments or orchestral sections as they were arranged on a real stage for the recording. Recording that has been heavily remixed often loses spatial cues. Movie soundtracks also often lose these spatial cues. Good movie soundtracks can "appear" almost behind the screen, as though an orchestra is playing right there as we watch the movie "up front". By "stable" stage, I meant the 3.7 kept the instruments where they were as we moved from the traditional sweet spot. So it gave a sense that we were moving, not the stage.]
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post #292 of 986 Old 03-28-2008, 06:37 AM
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Thank you caadiophile,the local dealer does not have them in his store but has offered to take me to a 3.7 owner's house who doesn't mind showing his CS 3.7s off. I am not comfortable with that. But thank you for the detail of this brilliant speaker. Especially going into detail about the sweetspot and how easily the speaker disappears. I guess this is a product of the 1rst order crossover Jim Thiel uses. Thank you again.
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post #293 of 986 Old 03-28-2008, 06:50 AM
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Pardon me for butting into an other speaker company's thread, but I have a comment. As much as I like and respect Jim and his great products, I would encourage people to buy Theil for yet another reason. Other than Theil, Vandersteen, and Triad, I don't know of any other brands that continue to manufacture the bulk of their speaker products in America.

Theil is a great brand, and you get to spend your tax rebate check at home; not China.

Okay, I'll butt out again...

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aka TRIAD DUDE

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post #294 of 986 Old 03-28-2008, 10:55 AM
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Hi Triad Dude ,
I knew there were three! When we were looking at choices to replace the 2.4's, a dealer mentioned three names, Theil, Vandersteen and "....", now I remember it was Triad!
Thanks for popping up here!
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post #295 of 986 Old 03-28-2008, 10:58 AM
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Hi wgerman,
Glad to be of some help. Sorry there is no way to listen. What if you tell the dealer that you are only shopping and even after listening at the customer's home, you may not buy? Some dealers and owners are audio-geeks and they will still do it for you anyway just to have some fun.

Another thing is if you own electrostatic and have not heard Thiels before, it may or may not suite your tastes. I met people at the Martin Logan demo and they would not buy anything but electrostatic.

Good luck!
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post #296 of 986 Old 04-01-2008, 08:37 PM
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Does anyone know if the 3.7s have been reviewed by any of the audio mags?
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post #297 of 986 Old 04-02-2008, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc9pilot View Post

Does anyone know if the 3.7s have been reviewed by any of the audio mags?

They've been reviewed in Germany and New Zealand. 3 pairs are going out next month including one set to Stereophile.
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post #298 of 986 Old 04-02-2008, 02:25 AM
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What magazines/web sites have reviewed them in Germany and NZ??

Thanks
Mark
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post #299 of 986 Old 04-02-2008, 06:34 AM
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What magazines/web sites have reviewed them in Germany and NZ??

Thanks
Mark

Tone in NZ which I have a PDF of. Audio in Germany.
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post #300 of 986 Old 04-04-2008, 12:30 AM
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Thanks Zissou.
Any chance you could please email me a copy of the the NZ review please? Or provide the link...
My email: (remove the spaces)
mhoepfl @ go2uti . com

thanks
mark
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