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post #901 of 1051 Old 01-17-2014, 11:38 PM
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Pshaw. I've blown 2 Thiel tweeters without even trying. But in the good old days, a phone call to Gary in Kentucky would get a fast and personal replacement.
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post #902 of 1051 Old 01-18-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bweissman View Post

Pshaw. I've blown 2 Thiel tweeters without even trying. But in the good old days, a phone call to Gary in Kentucky would get a fast and personal replacement.

Because of too much bass making it through a crossover, ie, no high pass filter outside the speaker? That is what the OP is asking about.

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post #903 of 1051 Old 01-18-2014, 08:15 PM
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I suspect that if you are destroying drivers it could be because the amps might be clipping and supplying DC. If you are going to play loud, make sure the amps have enough grunt.

I use ASP500 ICEPower modules to drive my PowerPoint speakers.
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post #904 of 1051 Old 01-18-2014, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

I suspect that if you are destroying drivers it could be because the amps might be clipping and supplying DC..
Amps never supply enough DC to bother a driver unless they're blown. A clipped waveform is not DC.
http://forum.qscaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2736
Amps pushed to clipping will create excess harmonic content, and that can overpower a tweeter and toast it. Woofers aren't bothered at all by a clipped waveform, so if they're blowing it's due to pushing them too hard.

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post #905 of 1051 Old 01-18-2014, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

I suspect that if you are destroying drivers it could be because the amps might be clipping and supplying DC..
Amps never supply enough DC to bother a driver unless they're blown. A clipped waveform is not DC.
http://forum.qscaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2736
Amps pushed to clipping will create excess harmonic content, and that can overpower a tweeter and toast it. Woofers aren't bothered at all by a clipped waveform, so if they're blowing it's due to pushing them too hard.

If you are following the discussion, you'll see that the drivers in question that are blown are invariably the tweeter/coax component. FWIW I've seen more drivers destroyed by underpowered amps than overpowered ones.
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post #906 of 1051 Old 01-19-2014, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
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Amps pushed to clipping will create excess harmonic content, and that can overpower a tweeter and toast it.

Exactly! That is what bweissman appears to be describing.

But the OP was worried about too much bass energy getting into a SCS4.

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post #907 of 1051 Old 01-19-2014, 11:20 AM
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I think in my case, the blown tweeters were due to power amp turn-on thump. I had just upgraded to a higher powered Adcom amp. I quickly tamed the thump by using a delayed outlet, but apparently not in time for a couple of tweeters.

 

Then there was the time my cat decided one of my CS2.2s looked like a good thing to climb. She poked a claw through the grille cloth and right through the tweeter. It was not the easily replaceable type Thiel uses today; I had to solder in a new one.

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post #908 of 1051 Old 01-19-2014, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bweissman View Post

I think in my case, the blown tweeters were due to power amp turn-on thump. I had just upgraded to a higher powered Adcom amp. I quickly tamed the thump by using a delayed outlet, but apparently not in time for a couple of tweeters.

Then there was the time my cat decided one of my CS2.2s looked like a good thing to climb. She poked a claw through the grille cloth and right through the tweeter. It was not the easily replaceable type Thiel uses today; I had to solder in a new one.

Ouch! I place a scratch box right next to the speakers. I don't know whether that makes a difference or if I have just been lucky, but they love the cardboard so much they ignore the speaker grills it seems.

Not my cat, and thsi is smaller than most commercial scratchers, but you get the idea. They love them.


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post #909 of 1051 Old 01-21-2014, 01:15 AM
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I think this is a very sad development for a once great company. Inevitable, I guess, after Jim's death but sad nonetheless.

My Thiels brought me many years of joy !

Cheers,
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post #910 of 1051 Old 01-21-2014, 09:53 AM
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I'm on my second set of Thiels (early 3.5 and now 2.7).
My Grandson wants to inherit the 2.7s
Why "upgrade" to lesser sound?
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post #911 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 04:29 PM
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I did notice the prices on the used Thiels are falling.  I'm going to speculate that this is because...
#1  People are projecting the company's reputation will fall hard and so will resale value
#2  Getting CS drivers rebuilt will become impossible

If #2 is a reality then perhaps I shouldn't be tempted by the deals I'm seeing online, although I can't help but regret not buying a *pristine* pair of CS6s for under $3k.


Mark Mason is about Me&Money -- I'll be referring to him as the m&m boy.  The more he hears about how great Jim was the more he'll want to replace Jim's work, and that will pretty much continue into chapter 11.  I've never seen real wealth come from hifi.  If you intend to build up your name [on merit, not acquisition] you better place passion first and profit last.

 

In that youtube video when Steven Rochlin gave big props to the CS3.7 and then there was a pause, and m&m said thank you.  How dare he take credit for someone else's life's work.  Thiel's rebirth is a still born.  They may as well have chosen a new company name because they won't find any new business from former customers with this image.  I litterly have no interest in hearing or reading about their new stuff (even if they reduced prices 80%), and in the last 4 years I've purchased the CS2, CS3.5, and CS3.6.  Perhaps it's time to get acquainted with B&W's diamond tweeter, or something with a RAAL tweeter.

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post #912 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 04:41 PM
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I think the obsession with tweeters is somewhat misplaced. As a 3.7 owner, I believe its special clarity and dynamics come primarily from the pleated midrange, and possibly the woofer, more than the tweeter. I think B&W's diamond tweeter and Focal's Be tweeter produce extreme treble with delicacy and subtlety superior to my 3.7's, but I strongly prefer the 3.7 overall. (3.7 also has superior tonal balance, but that's another subject.)

If you compare Stereophile's spectral decay plots for the 3.7 with several other class A loudspeakers, you'll see the 3.7 has faster (better) decay in the midrange, whereas the others have equal or superior decay in the treble.
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post #913 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJThiel View Post

I did notice the prices on the used Thiels are falling.  I'm going to speculate that this is because...

#1  People are projecting the company's reputation will fall hard and so will resale value

#2  Getting CS drivers rebuilt will become impossible
If #2 is a reality then perhaps I shouldn't be tempted by the deals I'm seeing online, although I can't help but regret not buying a *pristine* pair of CS6s for under $3k.


Mark Mason is about Me&Money -- I'll be referring to him as the m&m boy.  The more he hears about how great Jim was the more he'll want to replace Jim's work, and that will pretty much continue into chapter 11.  I've never seen real wealth come from hifi.  If you intend to build up your name [on merit, not acquisition] you better place passion first and profit last.

In that youtube video when Steven Rochlin gave big props to the CS3.7 and then there was a pause, and m&m said thank you.  How dare he take credit for someone else's life's work.  Thiel's rebirth is a still born.  They may as well have chosen a new company name because they won't find any new business from former customers with this image.  I litterly have no interest in hearing or reading about their new stuff (even if they reduced prices 80%), and in the last 4 years I've purchased the CS2, CS3.5, and CS3.6.  Perhaps it's time to get acquainted with B&W's diamond tweeter, or something with a RAAL tweeter.
Prices on the new Mark Mason models will not be lower. The TT-3 which is coming out this spring and replacing the 3.7 is $14,999. Also when the 2.7 and the 1.7 go away the replacements will be in the same pricing ballpark. Cheaper parts less labor bigger profits. The dealer I go to carried Thiel for 25 years and he dropped them 6 months ago when he heard what was going on. Within a year you won't recognize this company. smile.gif
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post #914 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 05:57 PM
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so I'm an impressionable consumer.  How should I interpret this news (I obviously don't care about m&m's lineup and prices)?  Can the CS line become more valuable after Thiel crumbles?  After reading Bob Stern's post it occurred to me that I could drop 10k on a new pair of 3.7s, and then store them like a fine wine, or until my life is ready to unwrap them.

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post #915 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJThiel View Post

so I'm an impressionable consumer.  How should I interpret this news (I obviously don't care about m&m's lineup and prices)?  Can the CS line become more valuable after Thiel crumbles?  After reading Bob Stern's post it occurred to me that I could drop 10k on a new pair of 3.7s, and then store them like a fine wine, or until my life is ready to unwrap them.
Down the road parts will be scarce so a lot of consumers will have second thoughts on purchasing Thiels.
The drivers that Jim Thiel developed were expensive you won't see those produced any more. The whole restoration department and parts inventory will eventually be gone. Currently some of the cabinet machinery is not being replaced. The current COO is a big advocate of overseas production. Look at it this way it took Jim Thiel years to develop his current line. Mark Mason is replacing it in around a year. Generic speakers by the numbers. smile.gif
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post #916 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 06:38 PM
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Well that changes my daily routine
For years I would search audiogon for Thiel at LEAST once per day. Mammals don't like change!

Meanwhile m&m's every move is a blessing for the competition
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post #917 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 08:02 PM
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Thank goodness I'm an advanced senior citizen. My 2.7s and SS2.2. won't have to be replaced in what's left of my lifetime; however, my son and DIL probably will have to hunt down replacement speakers.

IMO, Mr "M&M" may be a stand-in for Carl Ichan - - - profiting from the creativity of others.
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post #918 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 08:27 PM
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Thank goodness I'm an advanced senior citizen. My 2.7s and SS2.2. won't have to be replaced in what's left of my lifetime; however, my son and DIL probably will have to hunt down replacement speakers.

IMO, Mr "M&M" may be a stand-in for Carl Ichan - - - profiting from the creativity of others.
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post #919 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 08:45 PM
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I think what they did at the CES was dumb, by showing off the TT3 that won't be available until this summer the earliest and publicly stated that will replace the CS3.7. Who would wanna buy a pr CS3.7s now? (I think they've changed the story, but the damage has been done.) I guess that would give them a good reason to discontinue it. By the lack of posting from new owners here and their almost dead facebook page, things are not looking good at Thiel.
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post #920 of 1051 Old 02-12-2014, 09:26 PM
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I think what they did at the CES was dumb, by showing off the TT3 that won't be available until this summer the earliest and publicly stated that will replace the CS3.7. Who would wanna buy a pr CS3.7s now? (I think they've changed the story, but the damage has been done.) I guess that would give them a good reason to discontinue it. By the lack of posting from new owners here and their almost dead facebook page, things are not looking good at Thiel.

I am actually looking at purchasing existing models before they change to the new ones. I am glad they gave me the heads up on whats coming. I wonder how they are going to honor the 10 year warranty on the driver if you purchase a current product. For this reason and reputation to maintain price point, i think current drivers will be available for a while.

7.2 with Thiel Power Points, twin Seaton Submersive F2's in Espresso. Krell Showcase Amp, Marantz Pre-Pro, Richard Grey Power, Control 4 Home Automation, lots of Blue Jean Cables, Oppo 103D, Sony DVD 777 400 Disc Changer and Samsung Plasma 64" 8500 all in a Salamander Synergy 247 in Walnut.
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post #921 of 1051 Old 02-18-2014, 09:22 AM
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It appears that the new management team including the interim COO Bob Brown are more interested in building on Thiel's strengths and protecting the brand.  They are also making a lot of investments in capital equipment and process efficiency in Lexington.

 

Happy with what I read in this recent interview and looking forward to buying my new Thiel 2.7's.

 

http://www.strata-gee.com/2013/02/21/thiel-audios-bob-brown-sees-lots-of-opportunity/

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post #922 of 1051 Old 02-18-2014, 10:10 AM
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Welcome to the forum. You will enjoy the 2.7's. Get them soon because they appear to be getting replaced by a different design philosophy based on what Thiel has been showing at CES.

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post #923 of 1051 Old 02-18-2014, 12:14 PM
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I got my Thiel 2.7s last July. Driving them with a Bryston 4, it took well over 350-400 hours to REALLY break them in. At first, i was disappointed with them; however, I'm more than pleased with them now. (They were a replacement for a much earlier pair of 3.5s).

These babies need power, so don't try to drive them with 100 watts.

Since my CD collection is classical (including quite a few organ CDs), I went ahead and bought the SS2.2 sub and the crossover. The sub is still in its break-in, but what a difference with some CDs!

I know you won't be disappointed with the 2.7s, but give 'em lots off watts. I recommend a Bryston 4 as a minimum.
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post #924 of 1051 Old 02-19-2014, 10:01 AM
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I am also interested in adding a SmartSub into the mix.  Especially because the SmartSubs are due to go the way of the rest of the current Thiel line in the near future.  May I ask what placement you chose for the sub in your system?  Did you opt for a corner placement or center between the 2.7's?  

 

Also I have struggled with doing 2.7's or 1.7's with a USS SmartSub.  The window of opportunity is closing so I want to get as much genuine Thiel as I can afford.  (-: Opinions?  Advice?

 

Thanks!

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post #925 of 1051 Old 02-19-2014, 10:25 AM
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I mated a SW1 (=SS2) with 1.6's with great impact and integration. Very articulate. Noticeably better than the JL Audio 113 I had before.

(Of course, due to changes in my room, I am selling the SW1, but that's only because I cannot afford a second one, and I need two subs given the seating I need to cover.)
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post #926 of 1051 Old 02-19-2014, 12:43 PM
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Bradley,

I put the SS2.2 between the 2.7s. I have a large living room, so I have the 2.7s separated by 12 feet.

IMO, what you decide: 2.7s and a SS2.2 , vs 1.7s and a USS, will be personal preference and the type of music you like to listen to. Personally, I'm addicted to symphonies, operas, large-scale choral music and organ pieces. So, for me, the 2.7s are ideal, as the 3.7s were beyond my budget. You might prefer jazz and vocals.

I haven't listened to the 1.7s or the USS, so I can't comment on the differences. Maybe someone else on the list can offer a comment.
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post #927 of 1051 Old 02-19-2014, 05:09 PM
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I had a death in the family today. One of my CS2.2s has stopped woofing.

 

This is one of my original stereo pair, purchased in 1995. Since then, I have built a system around these, adding an SCS3 and a pair each of PowerPoints and PowerPlanes for 7 channels of classic Thiel.

 

But the CS2.2s haven't been played in a 1.5 years, since I moved to a new house and *finally* got my new home theater set up. Today when *finally* putting my assembled system through its paces, I found one CS2.2 putting out nothing from its woofer. Tweeter and midrange are fine.

 

I have already swapped the speakers and the problem followed the speaker. I pulled the woofer and the wires are still attached. It's possible that something was damaged in transit by movers, I guess. Something broken on the crossover board, maybe.

 

Should I

  • Consider that I got my money's worth from these old speakers and replace them? They were only $2790 for the pair in 1995. (I have a couple of new JL Audio E112 subwoofers, so I could probably get by with a pair of SCS4s for front speakers.)
  • Troubleshoot? If so, how would I go about it?

 

Thanks for any suggestions or sympathy.

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post #928 of 1051 Old 02-19-2014, 06:18 PM
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That sucks! I think the SCS4s might be a very good choice.

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post #929 of 1051 Old 02-20-2014, 03:47 AM
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You can check the woofer by connecting it's terminals to an AA battery. Just use a battery and a paperclip and touch the solder joints. If the cone moves the woofer is ok.
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post #930 of 1051 Old 02-20-2014, 06:19 AM
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If you unplugged the woofer leads you can scotch tape them to speaker cables and turn the volume up very slowly.

 

4 years ago I craigslisted a friend a pair of CS2s for 490.  A used SCS3 center costed a little more but that trio sounds terrific.  It was the audiophile grade bass from the CS2s that hooked me on Thiel.  A year later I put CS35s and CS36s in my home.  Two very different animals.  A couple weeks ago I drove up CS6s (boxes & new grills!) on audiogon to just under 2700 before acknowledging that I have too many speakers and someone grabbed them.  Having visited the seller's store I saw that these were in impossibly perfect condition -- just getting them into my attic would have scuffed them down to an 8/10.  To console myself I grabbed a pair of gloss black SCS3s with stands off audiogon for $500 (another 95 for shipping) -- a little scuffed just like I like 'em.  Someone listed a single MCS1 for 800 and that didn't last long.

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