Thiel Audio Owner's Thread - Page 37 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 1109 Old 02-15-2015, 02:22 PM
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BTW,

Folks, I'm still weighing all my options and what route I might take to owning a Thiel.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm fairly tempted by the idea of picking up a pair of 2.7s to tide me over until a pair of 3.7s becomes available.

As far as I can tell, the 3.7s remain fairly in demand, but I wonder about the re-sale market for the 2.7s.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #1082 of 1109 Old 02-15-2015, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
BTW,

Folks, I'm still weighing all my options and what route I might take to owning a Thiel.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm fairly tempted by the idea of picking up a pair of 2.7s to tide me over until a pair of 3.7s becomes available.

As far as I can tell, the 3.7s remain fairly in demand, but I wonder about the re-sale market for the 2.7s.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
I'm not sure what they have available but The Natural Sound in Framingham Massachusetts has demo Thiels available at 30%-50% off. Also w/full warranty.
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post #1083 of 1109 Old 02-15-2015, 06:49 PM
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post #1084 of 1109 Old 02-17-2015, 02:50 PM
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Thanks Class A! I'll follow any leads.
Rich,

I don't believe you'll be disappointed with the 2.7s. It took about 300+ hours to really break in mine, and they're better than my much earlier 3.5s. But, please do not skimp on a good power amp. At low frequencies, the load drops to around 2 to 3 Ohms. (I use a Bryston 4BssT2).
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post #1085 of 1109 Old 02-17-2015, 05:48 PM
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Old Fud,

That's encouraging. (Though not about the break in. I'm something of a skeptic about speaker break in, as I think *most* tales of break in are people getting used to the sound vs the sound actually changing).

Thiels have always been accompanied by recommendations for beefy power reserves, which is one reason why this tube-amp-lovin' guy had looked elsewhere for a long time. But see my comments about the happy results I've had with
my tube amplifiers and Thiels (and other tough-load speakers). I don't see anything in the measurements for the 3.7 or 2.7 that presents a tougher load than some of the speakers I've already had success with in my place, so I have some fingers-crossed optimism. If I were forced into SS territory by the Thiels, I'd probably sooner drop the Thiels and move on.
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post #1086 of 1109 Old 02-22-2015, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Old Fud,

That's encouraging. (Though not about the break in. I'm something of a skeptic about speaker break in, as I think *most* tales of break in are people getting used to the sound vs the sound actually changing).
Hi there,

My room wasn't big enough for the 3.7's so I opted for the 2.7. Can't help you about resale value, but I can share that when I contacted Thiel about support over the 10 year warranty period, I got a reassuring response.

I was break-in agnostic I must say, but a new pair of CS2.7's soon changed my mind
If you go a few pages back, you'll see my comments about harshness in the lower treble region - possibly similar to the 'raspiness' you talked about in your 1st pair of Thiels. I thought I had made a very expensive mistake. I connected my Thiels up to my A/V Receiver and played an FM station during the day while I was at work for 10 hours a day for 4 weeks.

My 2.7's are a different speaker now. Chalk and cheese comparison really. There were some tracks that had me grimacing and cringing in my chair prior to break-in that sound just fine now. Other people who heard the 2.7's prior to break-in also heard the harsh treble.
They sound fantastic now...
Break-in, at least for the CS2.7's, is no fallacy IMHO.

Agree with OldFud re power requirements. Nominal impedance is 4 ohms but dips to 2.4 ohms @160Hz
Add the fact that they are not very sensitive and I reckon you've got a requirement for a bit of grunt in the amplifier department.

Regards
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post #1087 of 1109 Old 02-23-2015, 06:47 AM
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Thanks markus46.

Yes, I've heard that Thiel will still support the 2.7 and 3.7 line.

As for break-in, I guess for me it doesn't matter since I'd be getting a second hand pair anyway.
I'm in touch with a person who owns the 3.7 and finds his Audio Research 70W and 110W tube amps are driving that speaker happily.

So you really like the 2.7s now? What do you like about them? Did you ever compare them to the 3.7?

Cheers,
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post #1088 of 1109 Old 02-23-2015, 02:06 PM
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Yes, I really do like them - The CS2.7's are keepers for sure

I have a friend visiting at the moment who has heard my system over many years and he immediately noticed the improvement over my old Yamaha NS-1000M's. The bass is tighter, deeper and more articulate and they image better as well. This is of lesser importance to me, but they look beautiful - even better then the 3.7's in my (and my partner's) humble opinion.

I never considered the CS3.7's so no I've not heard them.

Cheers
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So you really like the 2.7s now? What do you like about them? Did you ever compare them to the 3.7?

Cheers,
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post #1089 of 1109 Old 02-23-2015, 04:38 PM
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[quote=markus46;32051233]Yes, I really do like them - The CS2.7's are keepers for sure [/QUOTE[

That's gratifying to hear.

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I have a friend visiting at the moment who has heard my system over many years and he immediately noticed the improvement over my old Yamaha NS-1000M's.
Well, I should hope so.

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Originally Posted by markus46 View Post
This is of lesser importance to me, but they look beautiful - even better then the 3.7's in my (and my partner's) humble opinion.
Aesthetics are hugely important to me as well. I'm super critical of how a speaker looks.
And I agree with you about the 2.7, it's a nicer design than the 3.7. In fact the 2.7 is one of the most beautiful speakers I've ever seen (from various photos). That's a huge draw for me.

At the same time, in my situation the speakers are unlikely to stay put in my listening room, so aesthetics can take a teeny bit of a hit if necessary. I bought a gorgeous pair of Audio Physic speakers several years ago, love how they looked so much, perfect match for our decor. But in the end sonics had to be the deciding factor and away they went. (Great speakers, just not exactly what I wanted). So while I"m wooed by a great looking speaker, I have to remember not to simply buy-with-my-eyes.
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post #1090 of 1109 Old 02-23-2015, 05:59 PM
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In fact the 2.7 is one of the most beautiful speakers I've ever seen (from various photos).
Especially with the outrigger stands attached
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post #1091 of 1109 Old 02-23-2015, 08:09 PM
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Especially with the outrigger stands attached
My 2.7s (dark cherry) blend in nicely with period 1800s furniture. The size is not overwhelming, especially the height. Even my daughter and son-in-law approve!
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post #1092 of 1109 Old 02-23-2015, 10:00 PM
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Theil Powerplane 1.2 Ceiling Install

Thiel PowerPlane 1.2 Ceiling Install

Has anyone performed a ThielPowerPlane 1.2 Ceiling Install. Can the weight of these speakers (9 pounds) besupported by drywall only or will the ceiling sag as time passes by. Doesanyone know of a better way than mounting on the drywall ceiling.
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post #1093 of 1109 Old 02-23-2015, 10:07 PM
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For years I've felt Thiels were among the nicest looking speakers. They are elegant, so substantial, impeccably constructed and finished. (Or...they were....sigh...).

I would like to add that I've had recent contact with Thiel with some questions, and they still seem a class act. They must have held on to the right people for customer service.

As I've delved into reading about the 3.7/2.7 speakers, it's almost odd to me to see the audiophile reaction to the demise of the core Thiel engineering ideas. I don't mean the reaction to the new direction - I'm as bummed as everyone else. I mean
that once Thiel-As-We-Know-It was clearly on the way out, I saw lots of talk about re-thinking a Thiel purchase. Along the lines of "Well, I guess I better not buy Thiels now..."

For me it's the opposite reaction. I want to grab one of these before they disappear into time. I'm dying to get my hands on a 2.7 or 3.7, to acquire the last fruits of Jim Thiel's legacy as a designer. I feel almost as if I've come full circle back to Thiel, given that little Thiel 02 really was the impetus for my audio journey. I've realized through all the different types of speakers I've owned and heard, that there really is something special about that (Jim) Thiel sound, that you just don't quite get anywhere else. And I really want to experience it again in my place.

I sort of exhausted myself in my crazy audiophile years and have no desire to keep up the old pace of equipment researching and demoing. I have an ever dwindling list of "ones that got away" I feel I have to get in my house.
The final Thiel designs are one, the Quad ESL 57 is another, and the old Hales Transcendence 8 sneaks in there as well (though, practically, it's simply too big and heavy to be practical for me).

The only truly new brand I'm interested in hearing is Magico, given all the hype. In fact, I almost had an itchy trigger finger on Audiogon when a pair of Mini 2s came up for sale recently. Has anyone here heard Magico speakers, and if so what'd ya think? Comparisons with Thiel would be interesting.
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post #1094 of 1109 Old 02-24-2015, 07:15 PM
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Folks, anyone who has the CS 3.7 (or the 2.7), I could really use some input:

After doing some exhaustive planning it turns out, for reasons I can get into later, I would have to have my Thiel
3.7 raised around 4 1/2 inches from the carpetted floor. I'm wondering it this is a negative in terms of affecting the perceived frequency balance. My "listening height" on my sofa has my ears 37" from the floor.

I looked at Stereophile's measurements:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/t...r-measurements

And John Atkinson comments that (presuming speakers are flat on the floor) he got the most accurate step response (all signals from drivers arriving at same time) measuring 34" from the floor, just a bit below average ear height (36").
Perhaps that favors sitting a teeny lower? Also he writes:

"Fig.5 shows how the speaker's response changes above and below this axis. Basically, the higher you sit, the more you'll be bothered by a lack of energy in the crossover region between the woofer and midrange; the more you slouch below 34" from the floor, the more the speaker's balance will favor the lower mids rather than the treble. "


Which doesn't sound too bad.

But you folks have real world experience. Are your speakers raised up at all - e.g. via spikes or the outriggers - and if so how high does that raise them? And what is your listening height relative to the speakers? Do you find different sonic effects in lowering or raising your ear levels relative to the speakers?

Thanks!
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post #1095 of 1109 Old 02-24-2015, 10:19 PM
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So I have been using an active crossover to send the signal to a Thiel SS1 sub, and I am pretty happy with the result. However, I guess curiosity got the best of me, I bought a used now discontinued PX05 last week and it is at Thiel getting the crossover change ($60 plus shipping both ways) to work with my CS3.7. I will report back if this intended setup is any better than the active crossover solution.
so I got my PX05 back from Thiel for about 3 weeks, it's time for a quick review. The PX05 integrated the SS1 to my CS3.7s seamlessly and perfectly, and maybe too good that at low volume which I usually do late at night, I can't hear the subwoofer anymore. I wish I could increase the subwoofer gain by 1-2db, but can't do that with the PX05. This is what I miss about the active crossover. keep in mind this is not an issue at normal volume.


I didn't mention it before, but with the active crossover setup, I can hear a tiny buzzing/ground loop hum noise coming from the sub. I am not sure if it was really ground loop or just a cheap active crossover. Since I can only hear it within 5ft, and I usually sit about 12ft away from the sub, it didn't really bother me. So I was not bother by the noise, but what bothered me was the fact the sub was making this noise. That's why I wanted to try the PX05, I was hoping by using the PX05 and remove the active crossover out of the chain, it should stop the noise. I am happy to say that I don't hear the buzzing noise anymore with the PX05.




Also, I think Thiel sent me a brand new PX05 back instead. I remember the used one I got had some markings on top, and the one I got back was in perfect condition with a different higher serial # too. not sure why they did that,but it's very nice of them to do that.
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post #1096 of 1109 Old 02-25-2015, 07:32 AM
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looks like Crutchfield is no long a Thiel dealer. I should've gotten the Higherplane 1.2 there when they were $500 off each. I didn't want to spend the $2k+ for 4 of them when I don't even have a ATMOS-enabled processor yet. what am I gonna use for my ceiling speakers for Dolby ATMOS?
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post #1097 of 1109 Old 02-25-2015, 12:57 PM
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Thanks for the info on the crossovers, richardyc.

I was sort of looking into that too, since I considered picking up a Thiel sub (to use with my MBL monitors, actually).

On that note: I am normally an "anti-subwoofer" guy as I've never heard a system with a sub I liked. But I heard so many good things about the Thiel subs (discontinued…of course!) that they have me intrigued. My other audio pal, who is into subwoofers, is pushing the REL brand option.
I'm in a situation where my source components and amps are (and must remain) about 25 feet from my speakers, in another room. So I have long speaker cables
and sub systems that require running an interconnect from the pre-amp to subwoofer wouldn't be ideal. Apparently RELs don't work that way though.
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post #1098 of 1109 Old 02-25-2015, 01:06 PM
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Just something I was remembering and thinking about. A long time ago when I talked to Jim Thiel about speaker design, I was asking why did he go the route he did, and asked him whether he liked electrostatics. He, like most speaker designers, expressed admiration for electrostatic and ribbon speakers (I think he mentioned the Quads). But he said he determined early on that you could only go so far with electrostatics, that they had some inherent limitations he didn't think he'd get around, and that despite the issues with dynamic/box speakers, he felt there was ultimately more potential in going that route.

I agreed with him then, and still do now. I love listening to electrostatics, quad, martin logan, etc. But for me it's a "nice place to visit" only, because in every single implementation (and I've heard the giant sound labs as well as huge MLs), the same limitation hits me: the lack of realistic body/density to the sound, that lack of objects moving air. Something that I remember my Thiel CS6s excelling in. It's why I gave up on electrostatics as well. Though I totally get why people are beguiled by them. (I'm actually scheming on how to get a pair of old Quad ESL 57s in my house, just for occasional listening. They are still my favourite electrostatic).
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post #1099 of 1109 Old 02-25-2015, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
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Are your speakers raised up at all - e.g. via spikes or the outriggers - and if so how high does that raise them?
CS2.7 come with spikes. Outriggers (which I have) are optional. I'd guess they raise the speaker 1/2 inch. Maybe 3/4. But then after they pierce the carpet and underlay the bottom of the speaker is not much higher than the top of the carpet (in my room).

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And what is your listening height relative to the speakers?
In my seated listening position, the coincident mid/tweeter is higher than my ears. I haven't measured, but I reckon 3 to 4 inches.

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Do you find different sonic effects in lowering or raising your ear levels relative to the speakers?
I haven't tried. But thanks for putting the thought in my head
Honestly - I'm very tempted to let laziness rule and not futz with height.

Last edited by markus46; 02-25-2015 at 02:27 PM. Reason: formatting
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post #1100 of 1109 Old 02-25-2015, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
BTW,

Folks, I'm still weighing all my options and what route I might take to owning a Thiel.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm fairly tempted by the idea of picking up a pair of 2.7s to tide me over until a pair of 3.7s becomes available.

As far as I can tell, the 3.7s remain fairly in demand, but I wonder about the re-sale market for the 2.7s.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

Used Thiel speakers have terrible resale value, not sure why, they just are, usually at least 50% off. good for buyers, bad if you are the seller. you should really wait for a pr of CS3.7 to show up. would you like to get another pr of CS6? I saw an ad in audiogon for a pr for $1900. his ad is terrible, you won't find it unless you search for 'krell', he is selling long list of items in one ad. he is actually 30mins away from me, and I was thinking about getting it, but just don't have the room or need for another pr of HUGE speakers. his ad: https://app.audiogon.com/listings/mu...3076-pelham-nh
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post #1101 of 1109 Old 02-25-2015, 03:04 PM
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I don't think the re-sale value of products, audio products especially, is good to begin with. It's almost always crappy. Buying an audio component new is like driving a new car off the lot, not sure what else we would expect.

Nothing I've ever sold went for anything near it's original value - usually below half it's original price, or well below that. I've been amazed that the used 3.7 even goes for over half of what they were new!

And of course, I'm talking about buying second hand here, so I would benefit from the lower re-sale prices, and presumably not lose much in re-selling. It's not the price for re-selling so much that I'm wondering about: it's actually being able to re-sell the Thiel 2.7s at all.

Thanks for the heads up on the CS6, but it's just too big for my purposes. One of the reasons I'm interested in the 3.7 is the amount of performance it packs into a smaller, lighter package vs the CS6 and CS7.2.

BTW, I'm in contact with someone who might sell me their 3.7s. I'm torn because it's a trustworthy seller (unlike some recent adds for the 3.7s I've seen), they are in mint condition, but they aren't the speaker finish I'd like ideally. They are in a nice natural cherry, which I know is popular and well liked. But our decor is much darker wood. Hence I'm ruminating on the idea of getting them and if I like them as keepers, having them re-finished in a darker stain to exactly match our decor. That may sound daunting but Thiel would actually do it for me so I know it would be done correctly, with quality. Or…I don't go for this pair and roll the dice, waiting on a future listing for 3.7s in similarly excellent condition, from a trustworthy seller, with a premium finish, like ebony or amber wood. Will they show up, and how long will I have to wait while having "Thiel fever?" Dunno. These darned decisions….

Last edited by R Harkness; 02-25-2015 at 03:21 PM.
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post #1102 of 1109 Old 02-26-2015, 01:19 PM
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Hey Thiel 3.7 owners…

I've pretty much decided on getting the 3.7s over the 2.7s. But I do have some limitations, not much room to play with.

Which brings on another question I could use help with. I find in my room, especially since I switched the seating design for home theatre, that an optimal speaker distance from me is between 7 and 8 feet. I like this distance because it edges into near field and I get less room, more of the recording space. The rap on Thiels is you are supposed to get far away from them for driver integration, 8 feet and beyond.

Wes Philips stated he sat 91" away (basically 7 1/2 feet away) and didn't complain of any lack of driver integration. So that sounds promising. Ideally, I'd push it even a bit further to 7 feet.

Can anyone with the 3.7s tell me, by actually having tried it (or trying it) whether the sound remains ok, integrated, at 7 feet (and between 7 and 8 feet)?

Many thanks.
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post #1103 of 1109 Old 02-27-2015, 02:08 PM
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Rich, you wrote:
Wes Philips stated he sat 91" away (basically 7 1/2 feet away) and didn't complain of any lack of driver integration. So that sounds promising. Ideally, I'd push it even a bit further to 7 feet.
Can anyone with the 3.7s tell me, by actually having tried it (or trying it) whether the sound remains ok, integrated, at 7 feet (and between 7 and 8 feet)?

Maybe I missed something, but won't the optimum seating distance be affected by the distance the speakers are separated - - - and the degree of toe-in? I know it does for me.
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post #1104 of 1109 Old 02-27-2015, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
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Maybe I missed something, but won't the optimum seating distance be affected by the distance the speakers are separated - - - and the degree of toe-in? I know it does for me.
For imaging etc yes there will be an optimal triangular relationship (well, depending on what type of imaging one favors).

But I'm talking specifically about driver integration, where you don't want to become aware of the lower frequencies coming from lower than the higher frequencies (and the sonic anomalies that may result), which is pretty much a function of distance.

How close do you sit? Do you notice any break up of sound into the discrete drivers if you get to 7 feet close or so?
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post #1105 of 1109 Old 03-01-2015, 09:57 AM
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For imaging etc yes there will be an optimal triangular relationship (well, depending on what type of imaging one favors).

But I'm talking specifically about driver integration, where you don't want to become aware of the lower frequencies coming from lower than the higher frequencies (and the sonic anomalies that may result), which is pretty much a function of distance.

How close do you sit? Do you notice any break up of sound into the discrete drivers if you get to 7 feet close or so?
My speakers are 10 feet apart and toed in. I've really never measured the distance I sit from them. I did my distance selection by listening to the same CD, over and over, switching between my STAX Lambda Pro headphones and the speakers.

(After hours, my neighbors prefer I listen via my headphones)
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post #1106 of 1109 Old Today, 06:32 AM
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Rich,

If they are in excellent condition and the price is right, buy them. You don't know how long you will have to wait for the right color and whether they would be in the same condition.
It may be expensive, but Thiel should be able to stain them darker for you.
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post #1107 of 1109 Old Today, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Fud View Post
My speakers are 10 feet apart and toed in. I've really never measured the distance I sit from them. I did my distance selection by listening to the same CD, over and over, switching between my STAX Lambda Pro headphones and the speakers.

(After hours, my neighbors prefer I listen via my headphones)
Ok, thanks.

As for after-hours time listening: I have read numerous times the Thiels are actually quite good for low volume listening, in that they maintain their detail and sense of life even at lower volumes. I really like that about a speaker, as I don't listen loud to begin with, and sometimes after a long day of sound editing I listen to my system even more quietly.
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Originally Posted by cawgijoe View Post
Rich,

If they are in excellent condition and the price is right, buy them. You don't know how long you will have to wait for the right color and whether they would be in the same condition.
It may be expensive, but Thiel should be able to stain them darker for you.
This is exactly my dilemma. Yes the Thiels are in pretty much mint condition. As I say, my one issue is that I love the look of a good speaker finish and LOVE what I've seen of the amber wood and ebony finishes of the Thiels in photos. Aside from the lighter colour not matching our decor, I've never been a fan of cherry wood either. But I've also pursued options, found some wood-finishing places that would re-do the speaker locally in whatever colour, and Thiel said they'd do it for me as well, if I pick the stain. I think I could end up with something that looks quite good, matches our room well, but probably just being cherry would never have the richness of the amber wood or ebony. I picture getting these Thiels, and then a month later an ebony or amber wood pair show up for sale….and would I have regrets? Alternatively, as you say, how long might I have to wait for just the right speaker finish to show up for sale?

I did a survey searching on line for Thiel 3.7s being sold second hand on-line, over the past few years. 5 out of the 14 I found (over 4 years) were in amber wood or ebony. Between 2015 and early 2015 there was a spike with something like 7 coming up for sale.
That seems to suggest that I wouldn't have to wait too long for some other 3.7s to arise. However, it might be an anomaly. I'd bet that could be attributed to this year's discontinuing of those CS models and Thiel's change of direction, and hence a glut of owners and
especially dealers dumping their stock (which is all gone now).

I still go back and forth every day…grab this pair - excellent condition, trustworthy seller, stain them as I want - or wait for a more beautiful finish, hopefully in great condition, etc.

Thanks for your input, I'll take on board any words of wisdom.
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I understand the desire for a certain wood. Again, the problem is that you really have no idea when a perfect pair will show up if at all.

Cherry is really not a bad wood. A lot of furniture is coveted in cherry wood.

If these are speakers that you can see and physically take home, you are way ahead of the game.

I would buy them, have them re-finished professionally and if in the end you decide they are not right, sell them.

Just my .02.
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