Do dipole surrounds come with Left and Right option? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 01-22-2007, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I was talking a while ago with a speaker store salesmen that said you have to reverse polarity of one of the dipole speakers so that the out-of-phase set of speakers is either facing forward or backwards for both of the surrounds, which makes sense. However, I was wondering if you had the dipole/bipole switchable surround speakers what would you do then? There must be a dedicated Left and Right Rear for these switchable speakers, right?
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-22-2007, 03:09 PM
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I was under the impression that dipole/bipole was to disperse the sound more over a wider area as well as change the sound characteristics a little...try both and see which mode sounds better to your ears. Usually dipoles are used for surrounds and surround backs.

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post #3 of 19 Old 01-22-2007, 04:24 PM
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It really doesn't matter whether the bipolar-wired speakers face forward or backward in relation to the fronts (in regards to phase). What matters is that the opposing drivers in the speaker itself are wired in phase with each other for a bipole configuration. If the dipole/bipole speakers have instructions for L or R placement, use them as so. But if they don't, you needn't worry about it. Just experiment with placement as with all things audio.

One thing you can experiment with is reversing the polarity at the input terminas if you think that the two rear speaker systems are at odds with one another and are playing at less-than-ideal. The polarity would be reversed on only one speaker system. My bet is that you wouldn't be able to tell a difference.

I built my DIY dipoles as mirror images, and also made the front side look different than the back. This would be classified as dedicated left/right. It DOES make the most sense to build them that way, but commercial offerings have to keep marketing, inventory and selling in mind.
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post #4 of 19 Old 01-22-2007, 04:55 PM
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Most dipolar loudspeakers are designed as mirror-imaged L+R pairs so that the in-phase drivers are pointing the same direction. In fact, a company not selling dipolar surrounds this way should probably be discounted from the selection process....
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-22-2007, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rynberg View Post

Most dipolar loudspeakers are designed as mirror-imaged L+R pairs so that the in-phase drivers are pointing the same direction. In fact, a company not selling dipolar surrounds this way should probably be discounted from the selection process....

Correct. Every dipole surround I've represented in my career (probably upwards of 30 models) have been sold in pairs, with speakers marked "left" and "right." The front array of each dipole is in phase with the front speakers, and the back array is out of phase. It matters.

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post #6 of 19 Old 01-23-2007, 04:39 AM
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Agree with above. If you can get your hands on a copy of Chesky's "Ultimate surround sampler & 5.1 setup DVD, there are phase tests, which include front to surround in/out phase testing. This not only shows if the surrounds are in phase in relationship to their corresponding fronts, but also where the best placement would be.
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-23-2007, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkhome View Post

Agree with above. If you can get your hands on a copy of Chesky's "Ultimate surround sampler & 5.1 setup DVD, there are phase tests, which include front to surround in/out phase testing. This not only shows if the surrounds are in phase in relationship to their corresponding fronts, but also where the best placement would be.


What websites or stores typically carry that setup DVD? Thanks
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-23-2007, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastgt79 View Post

What websites or stores typically carry that setup DVD? Thanks

This is where I bought my copy from:
http://store.acousticsounds.com/brow...&section=music
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post #9 of 19 Old 02-07-2007, 10:47 AM
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I can tell you in my 7.1 set up...dipoles for the sides and rears. I use paradigm ADP 470's and they are labeled right and left. I have tried them in reverse (right on left side visa versa in my rear set up) and they will cancel eachother out...leaving a gap of sound behind me. I could still hear reflections coming from the corner, but not an immersion of sound that was produced by proper placement. I literally left them in place for a month and it was night and day negative experience.

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post #10 of 19 Old 02-07-2007, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rynberg View Post

Most dipolar loudspeakers are designed as mirror-imaged L+R pairs so that the in-phase drivers are pointing the same direction. In fact, a company not selling dipolar surrounds this way should probably be discounted from the selection process....

I had always thought this as well. I currently have a Monitor Audio Gold Reference system with the GRFX for my surrounds (dipole/bipole switchable). Unlike all of the other dipole speakers I have had in the past, these are interchangeable. It doesn't matter which one is left or which one is right. I know that money is no indication of quality, but these originally sold for $2000. Do I have compromised surround speakers, or could MA be doing something different?
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post #11 of 19 Old 02-07-2007, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin View Post

I had always thought this as well. I currently have a Monitor Audio Gold Reference system with the GRFX for my surrounds (dipole/bipole switchable). Unlike all of the other dipole speakers I have had in the past, these are interchangeable. It doesn't matter which one is left or which one is right. I know that money is no indication of quality, but these originally sold for $2000. Do I have compromised surround speakers, or could MA be doing something different?

It doesn't make sense that they can be doing something differently. Dipole is dipole and they must be mirror images and placed on the correct sides. I find it hard to believe that there is no indication of any sort to identify the in phase side. In any event, the battery trick will allow you to figure out which peaker is which.

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post #12 of 19 Old 02-08-2007, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekb View Post

It doesn't make sense that they can be doing something differently. Dipole is dipole and they must be mirror images and placed on the correct sides. I find it hard to believe that there is no indication of any sort to identify the in phase side. In any event, the battery trick will allow you to figure out which peaker is which.

Ed

For what it is worth, here is the original email that was a response to this very question. I am guessing Kevro is the US distributer for Monitor Audio, because my initial email was sent through the Monitor Audio web site.

"Hello Greg,
The GRFX are symmetric so there is no specific left or right speaker. The
bass driver always operates in phase , the tweeters can be hard wired for
operation as Di pole or Bi pole. In most typical side wall 5.1 installations
it is recommended that they be used as Bi poles however in particularly
large room installations it is often more desirable to switch them to di
pole.

Regards

Matt Armstrong
Product Manager
Kevro International
(905)428-2800"

Does this make any sense? Also, what is the battery test?

Thanks
Greg
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post #13 of 19 Old 02-08-2007, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin View Post

the tweeters can be hard wired for
operation as Di pole or Bi pole.

What does this mean? Do these speakers have a switch to change from Di to Bi ? Or are they really bi-poles and hence L&R are identical?

Quote:


Also, what is the battery test?

This is where you connect a battery to the speaker terminals and look to see if the driver moves in or out. This way you can verify polarity of the wiring and can determine which speaker is left and right by observing which drivers are consistent with your front speakers. But this method probably won't work here since it sounds like there is only 1 woofer and 2 tweeters? You would have to test on the tweeters and the displacement would probably be too small to observe.

Ed
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post #14 of 19 Old 02-08-2007, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekb View Post

What does this mean? Do these speakers have a switch to change from Di to Bi ? Or are they really bi-poles and hence L&R are identical?

Ed

Side mounted, there is a woofer facing toward the listening positions, with 2 tweeters/ one facing front and one facing rear.

There is not a switch. On the back there are two sets of binding posts, paired up on top of each other. There are two small speaker cables that you use to change from di to bipole. If you connect each top binding post to the bottom post directly below it, you are in bipole mode. If you connect each top binding post to the opposite bottom binding post (essentially creating an X with the wires, you are in dipole mode. In either setting, you connect you speaker cable to the bottom two binding posts.
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post #15 of 19 Old 02-08-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redskin View Post

There is not a switch. On the back there are two sets of binding posts, . . .

OK - I understand. I'm surprised that a quality product like this is missing this important aspect of a di-pole speaker. In di-pole mode, I believe that you can still achieve the correct results by wiring one of the speakers from the amp in reverse (normally refered to as out-of-phase, but that terminology is misleading here). Then the speakers are not identical but mirror images. The task still remains to determine which speaker is left and which is right. The battery trick won't work on tweeters. So I think that you have to depend on your hearing. Put a front speaker close to the forward facing driver of the dipole. Use either a mono (preferable) or a stereo (ie not 5.1) source to drive the 2 speakers and put your head between the speakers. The correct match will have a solid / stable image with slight movements of your head. The incorrect match will be out-of-phase and have an unsettling sound/image. Also, there are test CDs that play sounds in and out of phase - that would be good source material to figure this out.

Ed
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post #16 of 19 Old 09-01-2007, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post

I can tell you in my 7.1 set up...dipoles for the sides and rears. I use paradigm ADP 470's and they are labeled right and left. I have tried them in reverse (right on left side visa versa in my rear set up) and they will cancel eachother out...leaving a gap of sound behind me. I could still hear reflections coming from the corner, but not an immersion of sound that was produced by proper placement. I literally left them in place for a month and it was night and day negative experience.

Newbie question here. When companies label their speakers LEFT & RIGHT, is that when you're sitting in your viewing/listening position?? Or when you're actually facing the rear speakers????
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post #17 of 19 Old 09-02-2007, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

Newbie question here. When companies label their speakers LEFT & RIGHT, is that when you're sitting in your viewing/listening position?? Or when you're actually facing the rear speakers????

When sitting in your viewing/listening position facing forward.

Ed
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post #18 of 19 Old 12-29-2008, 09:12 AM
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My Paradigm ADP 70s are not labeled left and right. How do I know where to put them.

I also have a placement problem. I am sitting in the middle of wide room and the main speakers are 4 feet apart. My couch is against the wall and I have no side walls.

Some people have suggested the ceiling whil others have suggested the back wall 6' high.

What is recommended?
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post #19 of 19 Old 05-29-2011, 02:33 PM
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So I have a pair of 1996ish Phase Tech. DS-Ts
Took them apart to clean the cloth covers and to my surprise the condition of the drivers are like brand new!! They are built to last. They still sound amazing.

They do not have any R-L designation. Are they wired internally to be correctly out of phase?

Or do I need to do this manually?

//Onkyo 608 - B&W LCR 60 S3 Center - B&W DM 602 S3 Fronts - TSC TSS & Phase Tech DST Surrounds - B&W ASW600 S3 Subwoofer//
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