Canton owner's 'club' - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #661 of 687 Old 01-10-2017, 07:52 PM
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And the Canton Reference 1, I wish I have money to get those monster speakers (12.2 woofers 193.5 lbs). Stereophile have review.
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post #662 of 687 Old 02-02-2017, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsham View Post
Hi,

I am starting to build my HT room, and collecting items for it.

I was looking at these speakers. I want to put them in fake wall, and cover with fabric.

Vento Reference 5 DC 8" 3-Way Floorstanding Speaker Black Each

a pair is ~$3250.

What do you guys think?

Thanks.
Can anyone answer Ramsham? We mustn't be rude!
I have no experience with the Reference 5 or any built-in speakers; but I don't think you'd get everything the Vento has to offer putting it in a wall. The down firing port would be isolated for one thing. Canton does make a series of InWall speakers, however:

https://www.canton.de/en/cat/index/sCategory/60
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post #663 of 687 Old 02-04-2017, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2channel8 View Post
Can anyone answer Ramsham? We mustn't be rude!
I have no experience with the Reference 5 or any built-in speakers; but I don't think you'd get everything the Vento has to offer putting it in a wall. The down firing port would be isolated for one thing. Canton does make a series of InWall speakers, however:

https://www.canton.de/en/cat/index/sCategory/60
well if that supposedly fake wall is open on the floor so the downfire subs can be heared it shouldn't be any worse than covering a speaker with fabric. I doubt somebody has experience here with fake walls or choosing the right fabrics to hide speakers behind it. It's kind of a weird project and not really Canton specific. At least I never heard of anybody investing thousands of $$ in shiny speakers just to hide them away.
As you found out, there are inwall/onwall speakers available from Canton, but also from other brands. I'd bet there are other forum threads on this site that discuss such things, again not a Canton specific question really. He's off topic IMHO.
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post #664 of 687 Old 02-10-2017, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramsham View Post
.. I want to put them in fake wall, and cover with fabric.
... coincidentally stumbled across sth when surfing the forum - if you're looking for a bargain deal for speakers behind fake walls you should check out this thread (whereas i'd guess for most the 212xl with good sub would do the job just as good) not very shiny or truly hifi high end, but a very good deal with optional wall mounting kit and it's German engineering too
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post #665 of 687 Old 02-10-2017, 11:22 AM
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Considering these:


http://www.accessories4less.com/make...bwoofer/1.html


But I cannot seem to find anywhere NEAR enough information. I know these are a long ways off from the Vento/reference line but I think they should be a fair amount nicer than the GFE.


Other option would be for the KEFs (Q500 fronts, etc).


If anyone has any input I would love it.


TIA.
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post #666 of 687 Old 02-10-2017, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhand View Post
But I cannot seem to find anywhere NEAR enough information. ...
If anyone has any input I would love it.
TIA.
did you really try hard? Canton website not enough?
what about this?
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post #667 of 687 Old 02-10-2017, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazpri View Post
did you really try hard? Canton website not enough?
what about this?

Yes, I actually did. This is even one of those places I tried.


I wasn't looking for advertisements (which is essentially what I consider info from the maker). I was looking for informed consensus on the quality of the set. Reviews are relatively scarce and while that review was certainly helpful I am hoping to get more data points.
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post #668 of 687 Old 02-12-2017, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhand View Post
I wasn't looking for advertisements (which is essentially what I consider info from the maker).
AreaDVD is not known for beein biased. Hard to find any review that goes into disassembilng speakers. So I don't get what kinda "more information" you need.
The kit is based on the standard series speakers - u can google each model number individually... or try this search if you rather rely on end user comments...
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post #669 of 687 Old 03-13-2017, 02:50 PM
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Does anyone know where to get Chrono 502.2 speaker stands? I need a set in black. I can't find much online. I would guess I need the LS 600.2
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post #670 of 687 Old 03-15-2017, 03:26 AM
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standing and waiting

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Originally Posted by Norris Kasey View Post
Does anyone know where to get Chrono 502.2 speaker stands? I need a set in black. I can't find much online. I would guess I need the LS 600.2
there are some retailers that list the LS600.2 ones as compatible with those Chrono 502.2. You could double check with Canton HQ support what they think, maybe they just deleted EOL speakers in the description for that stand. I doubt there is some stock of original 502.2 stands left. Not sure about the design, but other than that any stand for that size of speakers should do...
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post #671 of 687 Old 03-20-2017, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norris Kasey View Post
Does anyone know where to get Chrono 502.2 speaker stands? I need a set in black. I can't find much online. I would guess I need the LS 600.2
I don't know your location; but Amazon USA has them.

https://www.amazon.com/Canton-02881-...+speaker+stand

They seem to have become the USA retailer. Most of the others are installers.
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post #672 of 687 Old 03-20-2017, 10:35 AM
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Amazon has quite a bit of Canton product now, but I don't think any of it is the most current product.

Sean
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post #673 of 687 Old 03-20-2017, 12:52 PM
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I heard the Canton Karat speakers, and was very impressed with the clarity, but the side firing low-bass drivers created a slight disconnected between the low-bass and the rest of the speakers. However, that said, I felt they would have made great Stereo Movie speakers in my living room. Despite the fact that they were on-sale, they were just a bit too rich for my blood.

But I have always loved the way the Ergo Speakers looked, and would seriously love to have a pair.

https://www.canton.de/de/hifi/ergo-serie/

Great looking speakers.

Here are the Karat -

https://www.canton.de/en/cat/index/sCategory/41

And here are the REFERENCE K series -

https://www.canton.de/en/cat/index/sCategory/37

Would love to have a pair of Reference K3, but they are approaching $20,000/pr - (2x12" each) -

https://www.canton.de/en/reference-k/reference-3-k



The Canton tend to use all metal drivers, but I did not find any harshness or brightness to the speakers, which is typically attributed to Metal Dome Tweeters. I found the speakers to be exceptionally well balanced.

I do have one complaint about the CANTON Website, they tend to give the -10db frequency response with no reference to -3db or -6db. That fudges the specs and makes it difficult to determine what the frequency response is relative to any accepted standard for frequency response rating. And they don't reference the fact that they are using -10db.

For example, the ERGO 690DC, which is the biggest in the Ergo Series is rated at -

https://www.canton.de/en/hifi/ergo-series/ergo-690-dc

Frequency response: 20...40,000 Hz

20hz seems extremely unlikely. More than likely you can trim about 20hz off that and the response by a common standard is probably in the 30hz to 40hz range. Though without a standard Frequency Response rating, we can't really know for sure. Even the Owner's Manual does not give frequency specs to a commonly accepted standard.

Here is someone who built a whole system around the Canton Vento Series, which are up near the higher end of Canton Speakers. If you are a member you can see the first photos of his system starting at Post 18 -

https://www.avforums.com/threads/tak...akers.1704459/

He is over the moon about his Canton system. Absolutely loves it.

https://www.canton.de/en/hifi/vento-series/

These look like very appealing speakers, and I would expect good sound even from the lower end Canton GLE series.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 03-20-2017 at 12:57 PM.
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post #674 of 687 Old 03-20-2017, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post

I do have one complaint about the CANTON Website, they tend to give the -10db frequency response with no reference to -3db or -6db. That fudges the specs and makes it difficult to determine what the frequency response is relative to any accepted standard for frequency response rating. And they don't reference the fact that they are using -10db.


Steve/bluewizard
They seem like they have always exaggerated like that.
Not sure why, as their numbers don't even seem close to
reality.

I have a set of older fonum towers, rated 20 - 30,000 Hz

Although hardly scientific or exact, when I tested some freq tones, they seemed to fall off around 45-50.

I have a spare AV700.2 rated at:

40...30.000 Hz

No way it is even close to that... didn't test it, but my ears can tell (and logic is a giveaway)... small speaker, small drivers, no way should it be listed at 40.

So for Canton speakers, I typically add 25-30 to their listed bottom specs and figure that is probably more accurate. At least 25-30...


Although they aren't the only company that seemingly lists specs that way. I have a Def Tech procenter 1000 w/ specs of 47 Hz → 30 kHz. Not even remotely close to reality. Using a crossover of 100 on it, and I'm not sure if it even reaches that.
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post #675 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 07:40 AM
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howto

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Originally Posted by 2channel8 View Post
I don't know your location; but Amazon USA has them..
No, that is the speaker including a stand. The original stand should be around 200$.

Try this instead... or try your luck here...
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post #676 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
They seem like they have always exaggerated like that.
Not sure why, as their numbers don't even seem close to
reality.
This is the typical misunderstanding of the Canton ratings. There is no proper/ratified standard for such ratings that all vendors use. The Canton ratings are rather exact in terms of electrical load occurrence, e.g. freq starts at 20Hz but is not audible at that point, it has nothing to do with audible performance other than there won't be anything beyond these points. Usually a hard cut off filter in the x-over design. Same is for Ohms, they are always rated 4..8 Ohms load which is more correct than simply 6 or 8 Ohms.

In case you wanna know about frequency range go n google for pictures on a given model. They usually get measured sooner or later for web reviews, so diagrams should be easy to find. If not available go for a similar speaker by the chassis layout and year, Canton usually has just a few chassis in use across the whole product range.

btw. the higher end Vento, Karat and Reference models feature ceramic tweeters for years now....
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post #677 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mazpri View Post
This is the typical misunderstanding of the Canton ratings. There is no proper/ratified standard for such ratings that all vendors use. The Canton ratings are rather exact in terms of electrical load occurrence, e.g. freq starts at 20Hz but is not audible at that point, it has nothing to do with audible performance other than there won't be anything beyond these points. .
Thing is, most of the industry uses those freq ranges to indicate audible performance. So when someone sees Cantons numbers, they'll assume the same. What good is a stated freq range if it's not even audible? How does that help the customer in any way?
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post #678 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazpri View Post
This is the typical misunderstanding of the Canton ratings. There is no proper/ratified standard for such ratings that all vendors use. ....
There is no legal standard for frequency response ratings of speakers, but near universally speakers are rated at -3db or -6db, which is still usable, or both. That I can find, Canton is the only exception, and it is a deceptive exception. To claim that their speakers go down to 20hz in any effective or useful way is misleading to consumers.

That said, their speakers do sound good, but you simply can not trust those frequency response ratings.

I think bare minimum, you have to add 10hz to the rating, and even that is conservative, more likely adding 15hz to 20hz to the low end rating is going to take you closer to a more common rating.

Though it certainly varies from speaker to speakers, but as a broad and general guide, there is typically a 5hz to 8hz difference between the -3db rating and the -6db rating. which means you can easily double that for the Canton to get from their rating to a more common rating. So, minimum adding 10hz to 16hz would take you close as a best guess.

That means a speaker rated at 20hz is going to be between 30hz and 36hz by a more common standard ... at least that amount. And it could potentially be as high as 40hz. Though with large speakers like the Canton, it should not be that hard to get response below 40hz.

But the point is, we will never know. We are left to guess at the functional response of the speakers.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #679 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 10:30 AM
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Here is a review of the Canton Vento 809, though an older review. This 809 model has 2x8" low-bass drivers, and a 7" mid-bass. That makes it the equivalent of the current Vento 886 models with similar sized drivers.

reverberance reverberance

http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...Fm5B3fDxavz.97

The rated response is -

Frequency response: 36Hz–38kHz, ±6dB; ... 41Hz–24.4kHz, ±3dB.

However, if you look at the frequency response graph, the -6db looks more like 40hz.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...khh6KZ4ac1c.97



Notice that when this speaker starts to drop on the low end, it drop pretty sharply and pretty fast. That means a very small difference between the -3db and -6db points. By my interpretation of the graph, less than 5hz difference.

The rated response on the newer Vento 886 is 23hz. If we use the above graph as a model, 23hz is about -25db. That's a bit ridiculous. That means the output at -25db is less than 1/4th what is is at 0db. That's no way to rate a speaker.

Again, this is something of an apples and oranges comparison since the Vento 809 is an older model no longer in production, but given near identical build and drivers size, I would expect them to be similar.

However, I'm not criticizing the speaker, just the way they rate their frequency response. If you read the review above, you can see it is very positive -

"The Vento 809 DC delivered it all with lithe grace. This was no heavy-handed speaker. In fact, I characterize it as light, agile, and accurate. When there was bass to deliver, however, the 809 delivered it with lots of slam."

"But the Canton is better than anything I've heard that's cheaper, and cheaper than anything I've heard that's better."

"In fact, as of right now, the Canton Vento 809 DC just might be my favorite loudspeaker, period."


Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 03-21-2017 at 10:50 AM.
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post #680 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 10:40 AM
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I agree that Canton's advertising is deceptive and I think deliberately so. I have the Canton Vento Reference 5DC towers and not only do they exaggerate the low end capability but also the driver size. The woofer size is published at 200mm... almost 8". I measure just barely 6.5" at that is to the very outer edge of the surrounds. Now it is fairly typical that mfr's overstate the woofer size but I have never come across a difference of more than even 1" on any other speakers I have owned. It's really absurd that Canton would publish such a glaringly inaccurate driver size.

Sean
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post #681 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post
I agree that Canton's advertising is deceptive and I think deliberately so. I have the Canton Vento Reference 5DC towers and not only do they exaggerate the low end capability but also the driver size. The woofer size is published at 200mm... almost 8". I measure just barely 6.5" at that is to the very outer edge of the surrounds. Now it is fairly typical that mfr's overstate the woofer size but I have never come across a difference of more than even 1" on any other speakers I have owned. It's really absurd that Canton would publish such a glaringly inaccurate driver size.
Actually virtually all drivers are rated based on the outer edge of the frame to the outer edge of the frame opposite. This is very common and has been going on since the inception of speakers.

My 8" speaker drivers measure about the same, 6.5" from the center of the surround to the center of the surround.

My 12" speakers measure about 10.25" from the center of the surround to the center of the surround.

That is near universal and not unique to Canton.

But the frequency response is inexcusable.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #682 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Actually virtually all drivers are rated based on the outer edge of the frame to the outer edge of the frame opposite. This is very common and has been going on since the inception of speakers.

My 8" speaker drivers measure about the same, 6.5" from the center of the surround to the center of the surround.

My 12" speakers measure about 10.25" from the center of the surround to the center of the surround.

That is near universal and not unique to Canton.

But the frequency response is inexcusable.

Steve/bluewizard

I have always suspected that many mfr's were using the flange outer diameter, but it still does not excuse Canton in this case. My tower is only about 8" wide at the front baffle, so it is impossible that the basket flange would measure 8" diameter. Like I said, I know that the woofer size specified by mfr's is exaggerated (not indicative of the cone or surround) but Canton's measurement in this case is flagrant. My previous Jamo towers were specified as 7" and were actually a little over 6.5" at the surrounds... larger than the Canton woofers specified as 8".

Sean
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post #683 of 687 Old 03-21-2017, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post
I have always suspected that many mfr's were using the flange outer diameter,... My previous Jamo towers were specified as 7" and were actually a little over 6.5" at the surrounds... larger than the Canton woofers specified as 8".
The driver size does not necessarily indicate the Piston size, mostly due to variation in the driver surrounds. And a given Piston size does not necessary mean a fixed Cone Surface Area (Sd). But generally it is close. Like I said, my 8" driver have 6.5" pistons.

Also, there is a variation when the drivers are actually metric. A 5" driver could be anything from 125mm (4.92") to 135mm (5.32") , but most often they are rated at 130mm which is actually 5.12".

So, a 200mm driver is technically only 7.87". That would typically be referred to as an 8" driver. The actually size of an 8" driver would be 203.2mm.

So, sometimes dimension is lost in the metric to US conversion.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 03-21-2017 at 11:00 PM.
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post #684 of 687 Old Yesterday, 10:43 AM
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I know how to convert metric to English (inch) units and vice-versa and I certainly know about unit precision... I have 25+ years mechanical engineering experience. And I can assure you it is not the engineers at Canton that are misrepresenting their speaker's performance/attributes... this type of exaggeration is solely on Canton's marketing/sales.

Sean
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post #685 of 687 Old Today, 04:45 AM
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sorry to say guys, but i think this is all bollocks.

Canton has their way of defining specs since the early 70s and never changed AFAIK. It was always a purely electrical spec - a technical rating referring to the crossover design, not audible capabilities. 20Hz... was always cut off freq, no -dB anything, no indicator for roll off. And when all other manufactures put the upper end way beyond 20kHz they followed suit. Listening at 40kHz anybody?

And while in metric world - where they come from - they provide exact dimensions of chassis in the imperial inch world they just provide rough guidance for buyers who are used to inches. It's obvious when looking at the specs. It's not a big issue either, coz freq reproduction is not solely defined by the diameter.

Everything about certain user expectations on what a specific rating should stand for just developed in the last two decades when our homies got more and more into building home theaters and started debating on the Internet. The hifi world is full of flawed specs made by marketing ppl. You can only really compare at single digits within same brand, and even then you might be mislead. Its a mess but it is what it is.

I'd definitely prefer Canton keeps rating speakers as they do. The only thing they could improve on is a SPL diagram in detailed spec sheet, but that's a twofold thing, most ppl make wrong conclusions on those. Very few manufacturers do such diagrams, there is no international normative standard to make those either.

I think in the end it's all good, you get what you pay for. And if you're serious about it you better test listen before, going only by written specs does not tell how good a speaker really sounds.

Last edited by mazpri; Today at 06:23 AM. Reason: errata
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post #686 of 687 Old Today, 08:03 AM
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wasn't Cantons fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
....

http://www.stereophile.com/content/c...Fm5B3fDxavz.97

The rated response is -

Frequency response: 36Hz–38kHz, ±6dB; ... 41Hz–24.4kHz, ±3dB.

....

... first - the rated response is no Canton figure, Canton actually rated it 20..40.000Hz (the x-over design, no +/-dB) like almost all their speakers in that price range.... it must have been Atkinson noting it that way.

...secondly compare this to lets say a Paradigm Prestige 95F official rating:
4-driver, 2-1/2 way floorstanding ±2dB from 37 Hz - 20 kHz 24 Hz (DIN) 94 dB

and look what was measured there....


-10dB or ±5dB if you level it different and forget about beyond 20kHz. That is an audible difference in the mid tones and clearly wrong specs by the manufacturer... because they meant it in that "audible" way. -2dB @37Hz? no way.

Forget the audible ratings of manufacturers, rather trust a brand and judge by their price differences or look for independent reviews to compare different manufacturers, that's what my suggestion is on this topic.
(nough said, over n out)
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post #687 of 687 Old Today, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazpri View Post
sorry to say guys, but i think this is all bollocks.

Canton has their way of defining specs since the early 70s and never changed AFAIK. ....

I'd definitely prefer Canton keeps rating speakers as they do. ....

I think in the end it's all good, you get what you pay for. And if you're serious about it you better test listen before, going only by written specs does not tell how good a speaker really sounds.

Canton's ratings are misleading, there is no usable sound down at 20hz. And there are DIN and EIA standards for speaker frequency response, and while few people use them, most state their speakers response at -3db and -6db which are usable sound levels. Even those who don't specify are still using either -3db or -6db, though if not specified, it is typically -6db which again is still usable sound.

The purpose of using a common standard is so that similar items can be fairly compared to each other. That's why there is a common standard for HiFi Amplifier Power. Both a USA/FTC standard and a European Standard for rating of amp power.

There is no way to know the frequency performance of a Canton speaker because it doesn't conform to ratings used near universally among HiFi Speaker makers.

I'm not slamming the speakers themselves as I had a chance to hear several models and they sounded great, but not using a common -3db and -6db standard for frequency response ratings is DECEIVING and misleading. If you claim 20hz, then you better be able to deliver a usable 20hz.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; Today at 10:09 AM.
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Canton , Canton Center Channel Speaker , Canton Chrono 505 2 Speaker , Canton Ls 90 1 Stand Pair Silver , Canton Ls 95 Stand Pair Silver , Canton Ls 105 Stand Pair Silver , Canton Ls 80 1 Stand Pair Black , Canton Ls 90 1 Stand Pair Black , Canton Gle 490 2 Speaker Single Silver , Canton Chrono 507 2 Standing Speaker



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