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rsalexan's Avatar rsalexan
07:49 AM Liked: 10
post #721 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 180
Joined: Jun 2004
I heard a new line was to be called Classia, there was mention of it somewhere in these forums a while back. But I've not seen much about it since.
rsalexan's Avatar rsalexan
07:50 AM Liked: 10
post #722 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 180
Joined: Jun 2004
I just Googled, and what do you know...
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/04...-loudspeakers/
DamageMcRamage's Avatar DamageMcRamage
07:59 AM Liked: 21
post #723 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 838
Joined: Aug 2007
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, those are not my cup of tea as far as looks go. I will reserve judgement untill I see specs and reviews.
plhart's Avatar plhart
10:39 AM Liked: 11
post #724 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 88
Joined: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker View Post

plhart,

I'll echo all the praise mentioned earlier and add my appreciation for your valuable comments to this and other forums. After reading through these posts, I placed an order tonight for 2 beta 50s, 2 beta ES250s, and 2 beta 20s (already had the C360). A couple of questions:

1) In your last post you mentioned some reasons for the 50s sounding harsh when set to small with no center channel. Not sure I fully understood the response, but I'm curious as to whether you would expect this to happen with the C360 turned on? If so, do you recommend setting the 50s to large?

2) I debated whether to use an ES250 (or maybe two of them) for the rear channels. I ended up buying the 20s purely for price. Would you have recommended something other than the 20s for the rears?

Thanks again for your input. As others have mentioned, it's quite invaluable.


You might want to re-read the post regarding the C-360. Obviously the C-360 can't sound harsh if it is turned off (and only the Ls& Rs are playing).

To the question I believe you're trying to pose>

There are numerous ways an audio system can overload or be forced into overload. Each type of "overload" usually has its own type of sound signature. These various "sound signatures" might originate from any number of places in the reproduction chain: from the pre-pro section of a receiver, the receiver's amplifier section, poor or inadequate interconnects, drivers out of their gap (linear operating range) or less than optimum quality crossover components.

When I see statements like "the speakers distort when I play them really loud" all it says to me, since I am obviously unable to hear the system for myself, is that the weakest link in the audio chain, the first culprit, might be any of the suspects mentioned above or it may be a combination of many suspects.

What I do know for certain is that it is almost always the final link in the chain, the loudspeaker which always gets the blame. And I don't blame you guys. It takes years of hearing various types of distortion and then qualifying and quantifying (in real time) what one is hearing with sophisticated test gear to be able to train one's ear to be able to readily diagnose the different sounds. This is especially true when one gets to "very high volume levels" when it is more than likely that many of the aforementioned suspects may be starting to reach their operational design limits all at the same time!

I hope this doesn't sound like a cope out to your originally posed question. What I am trying to say is that if it is indeed the C-360 speaker itself that is the main cause of the distortion you're hearing, then I know for a fact that the weakest link within the C-360 speaker system was the downgraded quality of the crossover components vs. what I had originally designed in. The fact that the woofer-to-mid crossover is around 850Hz, which is the in second harmonic range for female vocals would tend to highlight this type of distortion to most listener's since we have an everyday reference of what a real female voice sounds like.

Regarding the second part of your first question: Setting a speaker to large will let it run full range. Setting a speaker to small will force it to roll-on at ~80Hz which, if you also have a very high quality subwoofer in the system would be a better option than running the Beta 50's below 80Hz.

Note that though the Beta 50's have a -3dB down point of ~45Hz, a tuned Infinity sub with RABOS sub-room correction applied should be much more capable of delivering tighter, more tuneful bass at the frequencies which comprise the two lowest musical octaves (20-40Hz and 40-80Hz). And unlike a sub which has RABOS, there is no way to control the Beta 50's bass interaction with the room and/or the sub below 80Hz if they are not set up from the outset to small. So, with Beta 50s set to large, you are potentially masking the tight, tuneful bass from you RABOS sub with 45Hz-80Hz bass from the Beta 50 which can't be electronically controlled. Your choice. Whichever sounds be to You. That's all that matters...

Question 2 is much easier to answer. The front hemisphere of a home theater listening space gives information (through the LCRs) which is always intended to be Localized.

The rear hemisphere which encompasses the side surrounds (first and most importantly) and the rear surrounds (secondarily) is always intended to recreate a sense of envelopment. For a home theater environment, with the speakers-to-listeners distances much shorter than a movie theater the best configuration is (IMHO) always a bipole or dipole design (and not a front firing monopole like the Beta 20s). The more bipole/dipole speakers mounted to the sides and rear of the rear hemisphere the greater the true sense of envelopment can be,because the converse, localization, will be minimized.

The choice of whether to set the side and rear surrounds to bipole or dipole will come down to lots of listening within your room and your preference as to which flip of the switch gives you the greater feeling of envelopment, more of the time, on more surround program material.
jmps's Avatar jmps
10:51 AM Liked: 10
post #725 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 176
Joined: Dec 2006
Juiceblrc,

Sorry if I missed it, but what sub are you going to use?



Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceblrc View Post

Hey ckhusker,

Patrick & I were discussing the 360 sounding harsh when set to small (not the 50's) only when listening to music. This is why when listening to music I listen to 4 channel stereo (I turn the center off). I will try 5 channel stereo some more tomorrow to compare with my center set to large.

For movies the 360 is unbelievable.

Hey jmps,

Yes I will set all 5 speakers to small when I get my sub.

Thanks for all the info Patrick.


lik2hvfun's Avatar lik2hvfun
10:57 AM Liked: 10
post #726 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 299
Joined: Nov 2007
Again Patrick, thank for your continued participation here, and for your extremely 'sound' advice. Since you mentioned the quality of the crossover components you were forced to use, is there any reason to upgrade these? If so, I for one would be willing to make a contribution for your time to provide us with a parts list, design and instructions if this would really make a difference. By that I mean more assurance this weak link in the system would be removed, and the speakers will continue to perform per your original design. Any thoughts on this?
plhart's Avatar plhart
12:02 PM Liked: 11
post #727 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 88
Joined: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by lik2hvfun View Post

Again Patrick, thank for your continued participation here, and for your extremely 'sound' advice. Since you mentioned the quality of the crossover components you were forced to use, is there any reason to upgrade these? If so, I for one would be willing to make a contribution for your time to provide us with a parts list, design and instructions if this would really make a difference. By that I mean more assurance this weak link in the system would be removed, and the speakers will continue to perform per your original design. Any thoughts on this?

Harman/Infinity is the sole owner of the all Bills of Materials. If you want an "upgraded" version of C-360 I would suggest looking to Revel's Concerta series. This series was designed after many requests from Revels dealers who need an entry level, lower price point series to augment Revel's higher priced offerings. Marc G., the Chief Designer of the Concerta series (as well as most of the Revel series) used some of the same ports and crossover boards from the Beta series. The important point to note here is that, consistant with Revel's more upmarket image, higher quality crossover components are used at all times.

So, if you're looking for an upmarket version of the Betas I'd strongly suggest looking to the Revel Concertas
Chett's Avatar Chett
12:26 PM Liked: 10
post #728 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 27
Joined: Jun 2003
Patrick;

What would the cost be involved in upgrading the components to ones of your original design. I can make the boards and do the soldering. If it would just be a matter of replacing the parts with ones of higher quality or actually changing the over all desgin to get better sound quality?

So far, I cannot wait to get better ellectronics! These things sound freaking awesome, although I know they can sound better by feeding a better signal. The Pioneer Receiver I have is in no way comparable to my Adcom GFA-5800 pushing the 50's. I just do not have room for that huge amp, let alone it being only a 2 channels.

Thanks Again !!!!
lik2hvfun's Avatar lik2hvfun
12:28 PM Liked: 10
post #729 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 299
Joined: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

Harman/Infinity is the sole owner of the all Bills of Materials. If you want an "upgraded" version of C-360 I would suggest looking to Revel's Concerta series. This series was designed after many requests from Revels dealers who need an entry level, lower price point series to augment Revel's higher priced offerings. Marc G., the Chief Designer of the Concerta series (as well as most of the Revel series) used some of the same ports and crossover boards from the Beta series. The important point to note here is that, consistant with Revel's more upmarket image, higher quality crossover components are used at all times.

So, if you're looking for an upmarket version of the Betas I'd strongly suggest looking to the Revel Concertas

A most excellent reply! Thank you again.

(I think what Patrick is saying, is that he can't help us modify the Beta line since it's still owned by Infinity. It might also not be a good idea to take the speakers apart as he's mentioned before. This thread has made me curious about crossover boards and their design though. I think I'm going to do some more research.)
juiceblrc's Avatar juiceblrc
01:39 PM Liked: 12
post #730 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 282
Joined: Sep 2006
jmps,

The subs I am considering are (in no particular order):
SVS PB12
HSU 3.3
but then then the AV123 MFW 15 came out &
I am awaiting the new HSU sub to be released.

So, I will wait & see.
ckhusker's Avatar ckhusker
06:24 PM Liked: 10
post #731 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 151
Joined: Jan 2007
juiceblrc,

thanks for pointing out my error. I did misunderstand the original issue. Very helpful.

plhart,

Wow. thanks for taking the time to cover both of my questions. You are quite an education. I am using a decent sub (Klipsch Synergy 12"), so it sounds like setting all speakers to small is the way to go.

I wish I would have thought to ask you my question on the rear surrounds before I purchased them. Your explanation makes total sense. I may go ahead and sell or return the 20s and get one or two more ES250s.

On that note, I saw you mention to another poster that using a single ES250 to function as both rears would be a good idea. Probably a dumb question, but would recommend one or two?

Thanks again for your helpful responses. You could probably get away with it, but I'm really glad you're not charging us yet for all of this great expert, insider knowledge.
jmps's Avatar jmps
10:07 PM Liked: 10
post #732 of 2353
02-19-2008 | Posts: 176
Joined: Dec 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceblrc View Post

jmps,

The subs I am considering are (in no particular order):
SVS PB12
HSU 3.3
but then then the AV123 MFW 15 came out &
I am awaiting the new HSU sub to be released.

So, I will wait & see.

You are going to have one nice system when you add any of those in!
plhart's Avatar plhart
06:16 PM Liked: 11
post #733 of 2353
02-20-2008 | Posts: 88
Joined: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker View Post

juiceblrc,

On that note, I saw you mention to another poster that using a single ES250 to function as both rears would be a good idea. Probably a dumb question, but would recommend one or two?

Two ES250's. Remember, the task of the rear surround speakers (sides and rears) in home theater is to create Envelopment or Immersion. This also is why there are 7.1 channels in HT receivers even though the content is only 6.1.

A single rear surround speaker, even one capable of bipole or dipole operation like the ES250 would be typically mounted symmetrically with respect to the front-to-back centerline of a typical HT. So, If you are sitting exactly on that centerline it is easy to pinpoint (Localize) the sound as coming from directly behind you.. Sit to either the left or right of the centerline and your Localization abilities become even greater.

Localization is the exact opposite of Immersion! Not good...
ckhusker's Avatar ckhusker
07:19 PM Liked: 10
post #734 of 2353
02-20-2008 | Posts: 151
Joined: Jan 2007
Thanks a lot! I just ordered the 2nd pair of ES250s. Any special angle-to-listener angles for the rear surrounds?
plhart's Avatar plhart
10:03 PM Liked: 11
post #735 of 2353
02-20-2008 | Posts: 88
Joined: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhusker View Post

Thanks a lot! I just ordered the 2nd pair of ES250s. Any special angle-to-listener angles for the rear surrounds?

Nope. Keep the rear of the speaker cabinets flat against the wall and the center point between the woofers and tweeters 18" to 24" above the seated ear height of the tallest listener.

The two ES250's that you plan to mount on the rear wall should have a minimum of 6' between them or, keep them 3' from the junction of your side walls with your rear wall and allow even greater distance in between.
Shingleboy's Avatar Shingleboy
11:47 PM Liked: 10
post #736 of 2353
02-20-2008 | Posts: 6
Joined: May 2006
Wow. Awesome info plhart. Wondering your opinion on hooking up 2 ES250s as both the side and rear surrounds? Due to room challenges I can fit 2 on the back wall - but just not enough room for the sides. Still flat mount em' up and ride?

Thanks.
avsxer's Avatar avsxer
09:24 AM Liked: 10
post #737 of 2353
02-21-2008 | Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 2008
plhart:


Center - Beta 360
Fronts - Beta 50
Surr - Beta 10
Surr Back - none
Subwoofer - SW-12
Receiver - Onkyo 605
Usage - 80% Movies / 20% Music


Would appreciate if you can shed some light here:

1. Any idea if my setup timbre match properly, any recommendations?

2. What would be the matching Surround Back speaker, a pair of ES250 or 10s?

3. Will Onkyo 605 handle the fronts better at high volume if I disconnect one of the two woofers (the bottom ones) on each Beta 50 speaker, until I upgrade to a more powerful receiver (e.g. Onkyo 875)?

4. Does cable quality from receiver to speakers make a big difference to how speakers sound? Some say invest in high-quality cables, when others say basically any speakers cable will do. Did anyone experience a noticeable change in sound quality after cable upgrade?

Thanks for help
lik2hvfun's Avatar lik2hvfun
10:09 AM Liked: 10
post #738 of 2353
02-21-2008 | Posts: 299
Joined: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by avsxer View Post

plhart:

4. Does cable quality from receiver to speakers make a big difference to how speakers sound? Some say invest in high-quality cables, when others say basically any speakers cable will do. Did anyone experience a noticeable change in sound quality after cable upgrade?

I'm by far no expert on speaker wire, but I have found this article to be informative:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire.htm

Also, there seems to be a consensus here on the AVS Forum is that Monoprice is a good place to purchase speaker wire.

I also read somewhere that you can buy four conductor wire and use it as two conductor by twisting the black and white wires together and the red and green wires together (as an example). It's supposed to give you a lower AWG conductor thus reducing resistance. I did this with my front left and right Beta 20s using some four conductor 14AWG speaker wire I had left over after installing my back surround channel ES250s. I have no idea if it makes a difference, but it works.

Interestingly though, if you look at the owners manual for the Revel Concertas, for a speaker rated at 6Ω (nominal), 3.7Ω (minimum @ 130Hz), they recommend speaker wire AWG for a .07Ω load. It seems Roger Russell would recommend the AWG for 3.7Ω.

Perhaps Patrick will illuminate us some more on this subject?
avsxer's Avatar avsxer
02:15 PM Liked: 10
post #739 of 2353
02-21-2008 | Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 2008
lik2hvfun:
Thank you for the info, sounds like I should upgrade cables to 20 AWG wire.

My setup is:

Center - Beta 360
Fronts - Beta 50
Surr - Beta 10
Surr Back - ...
Subwoofer - SW-12
Receiver - Onkyo 605

1. Any idea if speakers 360, 50 and 10 match properly?

2. What would be the right surround back ES250 or 10s?

3. Is it ok to disconnect one of two woofers (the bottom one) on each Beta 50 speaker (until I upgrade to more powerful Onkyo 875)?
lik2hvfun's Avatar lik2hvfun
04:15 PM Liked: 10
post #740 of 2353
02-21-2008 | Posts: 299
Joined: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by avsxer View Post

lik2hvfun:
Thank you for the info, sounds like I should upgrade cables to 20 AWG wire.

Sorry, I may have muddied the waters here. Actually, 20AWG is a thinner wire than say 14AWG and may not be the way you want to go. I'm not sure if plhart is going to comment here. I would really like to hear his take on this, since he may have a better answer as to the AWG of wire to best use with the speakers you have. More so than me.

For what it's worth, I used 14AWG for all of my surrounds and doubled it for my front and center channels simply because I had left over 4 conductor wire. (Do two 14AWG wires equal 7AWG?)

I had been using some 20 year old monster type cable for my front channels. When I ran the Audyssey EQ, it showed my left front was out of phase. I checked the old wiring, and it appeared to be correct. (The lead with the + stamped on it was connected to the red terminal on the receiver and the speaker and the other lead was connected to the black terminals. It seemed the insulation was still ok with no apparent cracks in it.)

After replacing it with the new cable, I re-ran the Audyssey, and it then showed the left front to be in phase. Sometimes, strange things happen in my house I can't explain and this is one of them. Copper doesn't have a shelf life, and changing the cable should not have made any difference at all. But apparently, it did.
juiceblrc's Avatar juiceblrc
04:57 PM Liked: 12
post #741 of 2353
02-21-2008 | Posts: 282
Joined: Sep 2006
Avsxer,

Question 1
----------
Every speaker in the entire beta series to designed to be timbre matched with one another.

My setup is 50's, 360, and two beta 10's with a subwoofer to come soon.

They sound excellent to me. I use 12 gauge wire to the 50's are 16 guage to the rest. It is home depot speaker wire.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to questions 2 & 3.
plhart's Avatar plhart
05:06 PM Liked: 11
post #742 of 2353
02-21-2008 | Posts: 88
Joined: Feb 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingleboy View Post

Wow. Awesome info plhart. Wondering your opinion on hooking up 2 ES250s as both the side and rear surrounds? Due to room challenges I can fit 2 on the back wall - but just not enough room for the sides. Still flat mount em' up and ride?

Thanks.

What??? The Side-mounted surrounds ARE the left surround and right surround in a 5.1 system (usually designated RS and LS). The specification for the RS and LS surrounds is + or - 80 to 110 degrees (from the 0 degree centerline of the center channel speaker). Think movie theater. That is how they, the two discrete surround channels are set up, to your Sides.

The problem is that most folks get the two most important, discrete envelopment (RS and LS)
channels' surround placement confused and place them further back than 110 degrees; typically 135-150 degrees (from the 0 degree center channel. That is where the Rear Surrounds are supposed to be placed.

The rear surrounds, RR and LR, only carry the final discrete channel if a DVD is encoded as 6.1. With discs encoded only as 5.1 (and that's most of them) your receiver will synthesize that final rear surround channel from the RS and LS information contained on the disc.

Therefore, the only speakers that should technically ever be mounted on the wall behind you are the RR and LR. Mount the RS and LS speakers on your rear walls only if you're running a 5.1 set-up and have absolutely no other choice to your left and right sides.
zworykin's Avatar zworykin
05:18 PM Liked: 10
post #743 of 2353
02-21-2008 | Posts: 111
Joined: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by lik2hvfun View Post

(Do two 14AWG wires equal 7AWG?)

They actually equal 11AWG, or close enough to it for our purposes.

Personally, I use 16AWG in my current setup, but I have fairly short runs and it isn't exactly a long-term installation here in the bedroom of my apartment . When I get around to moving the good system to the living room of my next place, I plan to just use 12AWG all around. No real reason not to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceblrc View Post

They sound excellent to me. I use 12 gauge wire to the 50's are 16 gauge to the rest. It is home depot speaker wire.

I'm surprised how often I see this situation here on the forum--people using a larger gauge wire for their shortest runs. Just seems funny since it's the opposite of what we all ought to do. That being said, 16 gauge is perfectly fine for most setups, and as I just mentioned above, it's what I use all around. Just an interesting observation, I thought.
lik2hvfun's Avatar lik2hvfun
09:26 AM Liked: 10
post #744 of 2353
02-22-2008 | Posts: 299
Joined: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by zworykin View Post

They actually equal 11AWG, or close enough to it for our purposes.

I'm surprised how often I see this situation here on the forum--people using a larger gauge wire for their shortest runs. Just seems funny since it's the opposite of what we all ought to do. That being said, 16 gauge is perfectly fine for most setups, and as I just mentioned above, it's what I use all around. Just an interesting observation, I thought.

11AWG. Thanks!

As to your second comment, what I chuckle about are those 'audiophiles' who swear by the larger, more expensive cables and swear they hear the difference with their brazilion dollar speakers. Well, if you look inside those speakers you'll see these tiny little wires running from the crossover board to the drivers. How is that possible? Don't the engineers of these things know that only a 6AWG, oxygen free copper link interlaced with silver threads tipped with gold will work to preserve the subtle sound nuances provided by the Godzilla sized speaker wires? Guess not. (No offense meant to plhart.)
rsalexan's Avatar rsalexan
09:55 AM Liked: 10
post #745 of 2353
02-22-2008 | Posts: 180
Joined: Jun 2004
I've taken what plhart has said to heart so to speak. Id like to relocate my side surround Beta 20s in my 5.1 system. currently I have them on stands, they might be 24" stands. However they really should be quite a bit higher as heightwise they are only about even with my ears when seated. Im wondering what others have done to get the center point between the woofers and tweeters 18" to 24" above the seated ear height? Thanks,
avsxer's Avatar avsxer
09:58 AM Liked: 10
post #746 of 2353
02-22-2008 | Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 2008
Thanks for reply juiceblrc They indeed sound great.

As for questions 2 & 3

Q2. I have decided to go with ES250 as side surrounds and use 10s as back surrounds. Hope I will be able to find ES250 that are "Made in Mexico" as the rest of my Betas. I have seen one in the shop but they were "Made in China" and didn't sound quite the same. Maybe it's just a difference in listening evironment shop vs. room. Not sure.

Q3. I have disconnected the lower woofer on both 50s. That way Onkyo 605 does not trigger power protection and will not switch off at higher volume. Didn't notice any change in sound (like less bass or something), as theoretically I should be getting less bass with one woofer.

Hope it will not cause any damage to speakers. But plhart would be in a better position to comment on this, if he will.
rsalexan's Avatar rsalexan
01:37 PM Liked: 10
post #747 of 2353
02-23-2008 | Posts: 180
Joined: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsalexan View Post

I've taken what plhart has said to heart so to speak. Id like to relocate my side surround Beta 20s in my 5.1 system. currently I have them on stands, they might be 24" stands. However they really should be quite a bit higher as heightwise they are only about even with my ears when seated. Im wondering what others have done to get the center point between the woofers and tweeters 18" to 24" above the seated ear height? Thanks,


Anyone?
jmps's Avatar jmps
03:38 PM Liked: 10
post #748 of 2353
02-23-2008 | Posts: 176
Joined: Dec 2006
To get my surrounds high enough I have one on my fireplace mantle and one mounted to the wall. I don't use Beta 10 or 20s with their rear ports for my surrounds for this reason. I use sealed speakers that I can put against the wall. You could try using shelves as well but leave some room behind the 20s for the ports or go with ES250s on the wall.
dinotoad's Avatar dinotoad
03:49 PM Liked: 10
post #749 of 2353
02-23-2008 | Posts: 121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsalexan View Post

I've taken what plhart has said to heart so to speak. Id like to relocate my side surround Beta 20s in my 5.1 system. currently I have them on stands, they might be 24" stands. However they really should be quite a bit higher as heightwise they are only about even with my ears when seated. Im wondering what others have done to get the center point between the woofers and tweeters 18" to 24" above the seated ear height? Thanks,

I have mine on shelves. I like to use black adjustable wire shelves. You can set any height you like.
tennern's Avatar tennern
05:32 PM Liked: 10
post #750 of 2353
02-23-2008 | Posts: 5
Joined: Jun 2007
I have a SW12 sub hooked up to my Onkyo SR805 thru the LFE connection. I can crank the sub all the way up but the volume is very low. Any ideas on what might be the problem?
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