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post #271 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

How about a post by the owner of the speaker? That stuff is not hard to verify. Heck, I will take a private message even.

Like I said, he hides behind his forum identity.

I am all for opnion, but the claim he made went beyond that.

So let people make up their own mind on the validity of it. A knight in shining white armor, you aren't. No one here needs your protection.

John
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post #272 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

So let people make up their own mind on the validity of it. A knight in shining white armor, you aren't. No one here needs your protection.

Did I speak for everyone else. No. I recall typing "I think".

You seem to have a problem with my opinion, yet you don't have a problem making remarks that are at the very least as harsh.

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post #273 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

I'm not going to argue that good dealers have some good - if not GREAT sound... That said... I would wager "profoundly" that an SVS or Ascend loudspeaker (at a determined Price Point) would give a B+M brand a real run for the money. Can you tell us of a better $350 dollar speaker that you have carried...

First, there's a difference between offering a "real run for the money" and being superior.

Secondly, I would say that a $350/pr acoustic suspension speaker with a nice aluminum dome tweeter and a better quality and better looking low diffraction cabinet is automatically better than a ported speaker with a soft dome tweeter and an unattractive, lower quality high diffraction cabinet, BUT in reality, it's a personal call that needs to be made by the customer, not by one person's opinion.

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post #274 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Your attitude seems to take no faith in that concept.

And yours does?

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post #275 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Should? And yet doesn't.

I'm NOT David F - and I should not be saying what I'm going to next... but here it is anyway...

a. IF they had more finishes - it would be GREAT for this company IMHO... they could be many more things to many more people - and THEN the dealers would take (more) notice. David runs his business his way - this is only my opinion.

b. Because of our OEM work I can tell you I'm in touch with many dealers and end users of B+M brands... I know the dealers have a HUGE amount of respect for the person (David) and the product...

I also know that ID in a general sense is seriously on the radar of several $25 to $50M dollar companies (North America) as the word is spreading faster than anyone expected - ID has MOMENTUM... in a big time way...

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post #276 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You seem to have a problem with my opinion, yet you don't have a problem making remarks that are at the very least as harsh.

Ah, see, here's the difference. I don't have problems with opinions, I have problems with people attacking the opinions of others. You don't counter with your own opinion, you attack the opinions of others. Get it?

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post #277 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

First, there's a difference between offering a "real run for the money" and being superior.

Secondly, I would say that a $350/pr acoustic suspension speaker with a nice aluminum dome tweeter and a better quality and better looking low diffraction cabinet is automatically better than a ported speaker with a soft dome tweeter and an unattractive, lower quality high diffraction cabinet, BUT in reality, it's a personal call that needs to be made by the customer, not by one person's opinion.

and the name of this "miracle" is...

(now comes the fun part... I'm staying up late for this)...



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post #278 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Also, consider the fact that customers have directly compared at least three or four pairs of Axioms against NHTs and PSBs and the Axioms lost *every* time. Hsus have lost 2 out of 2 time and SVS 1 out of 1 time compared to NHT subs.

I don't doubt that you did these comparisons, which is the issue I have with Schaden.

I also don't doubt your customers' preferences, especially if you were involved.

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post #279 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Ah, see, here's the difference. I don't have problems with opinions, I have problems with people attacking the opinions of others. You don't counter with your own opinion, you attack the opinions of others. Get it?

Hold the phone...you don't attack opinions? What opinion did I attack?

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post #280 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

a. IF they had more finishes - it would be GREAT for this company IMHO... they could be many more things to many more people - and THEN the dealers would take (more) notice. David runs his business his way - this is only my opinion.

"IF"
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b. Because of our OEM work I can tell you I'm in touch with many dealers and end users of B+M brands... I know the dealers have a HUGE amount of respect for the person (David) and the product...

I haven't gotten there yet, but certainly have no problem with what he does. Beats Bose or Polk.
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I also know that ID in a general sense is seriously on the radar of several $25 to $50M dollar companies (North America) as the word is spreading faster than anyone expected - ID has MOMENTUM... in a big time way...

Well, it can't get any smaller, so it can only get bigger. Has ID pierced even 1% of the speaker market yet?

Not trying to be contentious, but momentum (fastest growing!) and market share are totally different things.

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post #281 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Hold the phone...you don't attack opinions? What opinion did I attack?

I'm sorry, I guess I meant the other person's credibility and veracity.

John
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post #282 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I also don't doubt your customers' preferences, especially if you were involved.

Well, you could say I cater to a specific audience or that there's something relative to global there. Or maybe I'm so good at what I do that I confuse people into buying crap. Who can say.....

John
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post #283 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

"IF"

I haven't gotten there yet, but certainly have no problem with what he does. Beats Bose or Polk.

Well, it can't get any smaller, so it can only get bigger. Has ID pierced even 1% of the speaker market yet?

Not trying to be contentious, but momentum (fastest growing!) and market share are totally different things.

No arguments with any of the above... OTOH you've missed my point... The growth of ID is indicitive of two main issues...

ONE... Consolidation within our industry

TWO... a general sense of DISSATISFACTION with B+M... You are a very bright guy John - do you see a general sense of happiness with dealers... Come now...

While we may be small... we are mighty and growing... I build for 31 companies now - and the growth at av123 is staggering compared to the non-consolidated brands... I build the cabinets... so I can count this for myself... cool...

You're not contentious at all BTW... just perhaps "blinded" in a few areas (IMHO)...

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post #284 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, you could say I cater to a specific audience or that there's something relative to global there. Or maybe I'm so good at what I do that I confuse people into buying crap. Who can say.....

IMO, you are good at what you do and get people to buy what you sell.

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post #285 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I'm sorry, I guess I meant the other person's credibility and veracity.

In this case, absolutely. I won't sugarcoat that.

You have done the same in the past as well.

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post #286 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

TWO... a general sense of DISSATISFACTION with B+M... You are a very bright guy John - do you see a general sense of happiness with dealers... Come now...

Most B&M dealers *suuuuuuuck*, I can't say they don't. But then most of them are more profitable than I am too.
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While we may be small... we are mighty and growing... I build for 31 companies now - and the growth at av123 is staggering compared to the non-consolidated brands... I build the cabinets... so I can count this for myself... cool...

You can't grow very easily if you already own 100% of the market. You just get knocked back to 99% or 98%. ID is still tiny, tiny, tiny in the scheme of things.
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You're not contentious at all BTW... just perhaps "blinded" in a few areas (IMHO)...

On the contrary, my eyes are wide open and I compete as though I am the prey and I give up nothing to anyone.

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post #287 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:52 PM
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In this case, absolutely. I won't sugarcoat that.

You have done the same in the past as well.

I prefer to argue that facts. Schade should be able to make his claims if he likes, unless you have hard facts to discredit him.

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post #288 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

IMO, you are good at what you do and get people to buy what you sell.

As is Ascend. I also preach good design and I can make a hugely logical case as to what constitutes better design or worse design. What I do is far more than just subjective.

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post #289 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I prefer to argue that facts. Schade should be able to make his claims if he likes, unless you have hard facts to discredit him.

Nope....he has no hard facts. I guess we agree on that.

I am looking for hard facts to give him credit. In my OPINION right now, he is lieing.

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post #290 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:57 PM
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Pardon the interruption - but I'm still waiting to hear what miracle speaker bests the Ascend 170SE at $350...

can you say "run for the money"...

There's this great saying in Russian... lets see if I can get it to post here...

?????? ???, ????? ? ???????? ????? ?????? - ??????, ?????? ??? ? ???????? ???...

no go... I tried... maybe I need some sleep...

Best...

mls

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post #291 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

As is Ascend. I also preach good design and I can make a hugely logical case as to what constitutes better design or worse design. What I do is far more than just subjective.

Yeah...that is your opinion of yourself.

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post #292 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Nope....he has no hard facts. I guess we agree on that.

I am looking for hard facts to give him credit. In my OPINION right now, he is lieing.

Imagine a world where every statement you make is followed with "prove it" and "I think you're lying" (note the spelling). Kind of a sucky life, don't you think?

Have I ever said you were lying? Biased, maybe, but a liar? Nope. I think calling someone a liar is well beyond the pale and I'm highly disappointed in you.

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post #293 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:08 PM
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Yeah...that is your opinion of yourself.

But I can back it up with facts, when and if I please. Not when someone childishly says "prove it".

I find it amusing that there's only one thing an ID fan will never tolerate - that there is an equal or better product by any manufacturer that sells via B&M. That's rather cultish and childish.

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post #294 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:10 PM
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John...I am so sorry you are disappointed in me.

Thank you for the spelling correction.

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post #295 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I find it amusing that there's only one thing an ID fan will never tolerate - that there is an equal or better product by any manufacturer that sells via B&M.

You've simply forgotten the "qualifier" -

at the same price

Good Night John...

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post #296 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

But I can back it up with facts, when and if I please. Not when someone childishly says "prove it".

I find it amusing that there's only one thing an ID fan will never tolerate - that there is an equal or better product by any manufacturer that sells via B&M. That's rather cultish and childish.

Hmm...interesting, but I have not said in this thread that ID is better than B&M. In fact, I have made posts in other threads about B&M brands that should be considered. And where is the price portion of it?

John, any engineer or designer will tell you there are trade-offs in designs.

For instance, why do you think acoustic suspension is better than anything else?

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post #297 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:27 PM
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John, any engineer or designer will tell you there are trade-offs in designs.

Exactly, so how can one differently engineered product be better than another solely on the basis of subjectivity and anecdote?
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For instance, why do you think acoustic suspension is better than anything else?

Because it improves transient response, eliminates port noise, has a more gentle low bass roll off, allows more predictable driver behavior, for starters.

Have you ever looked at what noise comes out of a port between 100Hz and about 1000Hz? It's pretty severe. I've become accustomed to not having it, not that some ported designs don't sound nice.

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post #298 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

You've simply forgotten the "qualifier" -

at the same price

Exactly. It's intolerable. Unimaginable. And yet.......

John
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post #299 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Because it improves transient response, eliminates port noise, has a more gentle low bass roll off, allows more predictable driver behavior, for starters.

Have you ever looked at what noise comes out of a port between 100Hz and about 1000Hz? It's pretty severe. I've become accustomed to not having it, not that some ported designs don't sound nice.

Yet as it gets close to its bass tuning point, the distortion for the acoustic suspension design goes up when compared to ported. The driver has to move more in an acoustic suspension design. Port noise should also show up as distortion, yet in one that is well designed, they exhibit lower distortion than a given acoustic suspension design.

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post #300 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:40 PM
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Let's compare distortion between the Axiom M22 and the NHT Classic 3.

M22:


Classic 3:


Interesting, don't you think?

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