Tweeter closing down all California stores! - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tweeterex View Post

It's my opinion that nothing could be further from the truth. Give me an open minded music lover for a couple of hours and he will quickly start realizing what much better audio does to him.

Of course it is. That's your job. If you didn't believe it, you'd either be a liar or not very good at your job, which is to make the most out of every customer.

I've got a house full of speakers that range from $200 to $4000 per pair. I've also lived with speakers from A(R) to V(andersteen) over my 40 years in audio including electrostatics, planar magnetics, 1st order, 4th order and in between. Believe me, I understand the law of diminishing returns. And as a classical music and opera lover who regularly attends live concerts, I know what live, unamplified music peformed in a real space sounds like. How many of your "open minded music lovers" can say the same?

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post #362 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 07:31 AM
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tweeterex, I don't actually believe that you seriously doubt that the information on the net about audio

1 - is useful to people, and
2 - is having an impact on what people buy

The notion that no one else's opinion is any use to anyone else is plainly just too pointless to post. Everyone here reads comments and reviews, and most decide which speakers to audition or buy based somewhat on that.
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post #363 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 07:34 AM
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I've got a house full of speakers that range from $200 to $4000 per pair. I've also lived with speakers from A(R) to V(andersteen) over my 40 years in audio including electrostatics, planar magnetics, 1st order, 4th order and in between. Believe me, I understand the law of diminishing returns. And as a classical music and opera lover who regularly attends live concerts, I know what live, unamplified music peformed in a real space sounds like. How many of your "open minded music lovers" can say the same?

More than you'd think, but I am talking about newbies, and most people have a comfort level for what they are willing to spend, I deal with a clientele who can indulge themselves quite a bit when they hear improvements, their "diminishing returns" scale slides a bit different than most here , I'd suspect. Many here won't pay much more for an improvement because the money hurts more than the gained satisfaction, I see people who say, "oh that's better, I like that one more", and spend whatever it takes until they no longer hear an improvement.
I know I can get decent wine for a certain price , which is more than I should spend for such a luxury, but while I can clearly appreciate finer wines, it doesn't matter because I am unwilling to spend more for them in most circumstances. This is why many shop with an absolute dollar figure in mind that they won't step beyond, but not everyone shops that way.

I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
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post #364 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 07:37 AM
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tweeterex, I don't actually believe that you seriously doubt that the information on the net about audio

1 - is useful to people, and
2 - is having an impact on what people buy

The notion that no one else's opinion is any use to anyone else is plainly just too pointless to post. Everyone here reads comments and reviews, and most decide which speakers to audition or buy based somewhat on that.

No, I use it too, it is one piece of the puzzle , and great at whittling down the field, but pales in comparison to personal preferance gained through direct comparison, I'm sorry if I implied that posting observations were completely worthless.

I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
Noth...
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post #365 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tweeterex View Post

No, I use it too, it is one piece of the puzzle , and great at whittling down the field, but pales in comparison to personal preferance gained through direct comparison, I'm sorry if I implied that posting observations were completely worthless.

Jumping in to this on page twelve, but.... absolutely no nead to apologize TTX. But, in the truest scense of the equation my opinion or yours.... on how a speaker "sounds" IS pointless.

And that's where most of the threads here like.... "help me choose" or "which should I buy" kind of threads are kind of silly. The ONLY answer is whichever you like best.

Simply reading ten answers pro and con and likely an ensuing debate should any response get too detailed.... still leaves the OP with the same question and no REAL answers.

The only answer is to audition for yourself and see what you hear and prefer with your OWN ears.

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post #366 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 08:37 AM
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What narrows down an audition list is the lack of mention of certain speakers as ones to hear at a certain price point by reviewers (pro, amatuer, and in between) and also availability of adequate places for certain brands to be demoed within a reasonable travel area. Simple practicality, listen to ones that seem to have the respect and recommendation of some people, and are available in your area as well. If I lived in ALASKA I would guess mail-order places, like J&R, would sell and take back a lot of speakers from me.

I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
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post #367 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ericgl View Post

Having to compete with B&M brands keeps ID brands honest.


And vice versa!

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post #368 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 09:37 AM
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Having to compete with B&M brands keeps ID brands honest

But , I'd argue , that they, in all likelyhood, rarely do have to compete with them side-by-side.
I would guess (yes, I'm making a reasonable guess based on what I read here) that most don't have anything comporable at home when they get delivered.
Maybe some might feel that the majority of those who order ID also are smart enough to have B&M speakers they are considering there at the same time, and that they do. That doesn't seem to be what I've read though.

I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
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post #369 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tweeterex View Post

But , I'd argue , that they, in all likelyhood, rarely do have to compete with them side-by-side.
I would guess (yes, I'm making a reasonable guess based on what I read here) that most don't have anything comporable at home when they get delivered.
Maybe some might feel that the majority of those who order ID also are smart enough to have B&M speakers they are considering there at the same time, and that they do. That doesn't seem to be what I've read though.

And I agree. But there is always a potential for a 'shoot-out', I've read a couple, and Craigsub is having another (I doubt he'd agree to the term however). Generally, I believe most build speakers from passion and not for profit (although it is necessary to continue building speakers). Your presence here I also believe comes from passion. Mostly manufacturers (B&M and ID) want to provide the best speaker at a given price point for a given application.

While there are too many "Is this a good speaker", "A vs. B", and "Help me choose" threads, I suspect even more speakers are chosen based on price and form factor only and without any research. How else can the B company be so sucessfull?
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post #370 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

And that's all good. I'd *rather* see people buying ID brands than crap any day of the week. An ID buyer is, to me, more likely to be enticed by what we do than a JBL buyer because it increases expectations. They no longer become satisfied with crap. There *needs* to be a strong mid-fi segment and it's been weakened. If ID revives it, that's great. It's good for everyone but big chain stores. Good for me, good for Schade, good all around.

There is at least two things wrong with that statement.
The HTIB segment keeps growing, unfortunately, so there is then, a lot of people who like crap. Maybe because they don't want to spend anymore than that or are too lazy to seek out better gear.
I doubt there are any ID brands that can compete with "quality" JBLs. People who "know" JBLs don't even talk about, much less consider the JBL at BB and the like. Can ID speakers be had for less than the better JBLs? Yes, but then you get what you pay for. But with some effort, one can come up with real deals on the better JBLs. I did, and I know others who have, like (5) PT800 that have a msrp of $1700/ea, Tweeters used to sell them for $1600/ea. I got them for a 1/3 of that. And of all the speakers I've heard up to $4k none can compare for one reason or another.
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post #371 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by quadriverfalls View Post

And that's where most of the threads here like.... "help me choose" or "which should I buy" kind of threads are kind of silly. The ONLY answer is whichever you like best.


I think most people who start those threads go something like this...

They have some money to spend on a surround setup and have no knowledge or experience. Instead of running out and picking a system up, they poke around the web and soon discover some of the little they knew was totally false. IE, Bose sucks and much better can be had for the same cash, and that $100 HDMI cables are a scam. Now they are of the mindset they can't trust the freckle faced kid at BB or CC and come here. It is all in the interest of avoiding buyers remorse. They don't care they could have gotten a speaker that sounded a little better by auditioning, they simply don't want to get ripped off.
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post #372 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 04:50 PM
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They don't care they could have gotten a speaker that sounded a little better by auditioning, they simply don't want to get ripped off.

People often make mistakes because they are trying to avoid them.

I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
Noth...
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post #373 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 06:13 PM
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Not sure I am a normal buyer, but here is my path to ID purchase:

I was "in to" audio 20 yrs ago, but have drifted further and further away, to where I listen in car, on latop speakers, or iPod headphones. Decide to finish basement as playroom/TV room, and figure I will roll a 5.1 set up into that for HT/music. Do some internet research and come across Orb Audio. Very cool looking speakers with some great reviews. My self-imposed speaker budget is $1000; they fit that perfectly. I'm a little unsure though of how good sound can be out of those little orbs, so I don't order right away (+ I am months away from basement being finished).

Do more research, come across avsforum. Post asking about Orbs, get all sorts or recommendations, but lots of "check out ascendacoustics.com or **********". Not really hip on buying "regular" speakers on line. Orbs are an exception because they are kind of unique. So I start looking around. I've demo'd everything I reasonably could anywhere close to my price range in about a 90 mile radius of where I live. Unfortunately that isn't a whole lot of places.

I heard the Gallo orb speakers, and wasn't thrilled, so I'm off that style.

I've found some speakers I like, with the PSB Image B25s at the top of a very short list. Unfortunately dealer is not very customer-friendly. No way can I try speakers at home. I can buy, return and pay restocking fee. I can buy the B25s on line, but that doesn't make a ton of sense. About the same time I am talking this thru with a friend who has a friend with an Ascend set up. 340s across front, 170s for rears in a 7.1. He is cool about letting me have a listen, and I am kind of blown away. 170s are every bit as good as PSB25s to me, and they are being driven by a mid level Yamaha AVR as opposed to McIntosh separates on the B25s.

Still not certain, but leaning hard toward 170s. I call and e-mail PSB dealer to see if I can bring 170s in to his store for a comparison and I get no response.

Doing more and more reading on avs and other forums. The x-series keep popping up. I like that the x-cs are sealed because I'm putting LCR in a entertainment center. To make a long story less long I've ordered three x-cs for front with a ulw-10 sub. A pair of in-ceiling Speakercraft Aim5 Ones for surrounds. I am totally ready to ship the x-speakers back if I am not completely happy with them. If I do I'll be on the phone with Ascend the same day.

Looking back I can honestly say I was ready to spend money at any B&M at any time. Other than Orbs being early favorite I was never enamored with ID brands. Very few speakers I heard in-store sounded good to me, and one purchase I easily could have made was undone by a bad dealer. Although it doesn't feel this way now, I can easily say that ID was my last resort. And frankly, if I hadn't kind of lucked into a way to hear the Ascends I'm not sure what I would have done. Hearing them gave a lot of credibility to the buzz. Not sure it is fair of me to asume that that credibility should extend to av123 or anyone else, but that is kind of what I am doing.

If these speakers do live up to the buzz I won't even consider walking into a B&M again, unless I'd have a strong recommendation from someone who did business there.
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post #374 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tweeterex View Post

People often make mistakes because they are trying to avoid them.

Yeah, well I am sure I will be happy when my Axioms get here and not experience buyers remorse....no mid-fi folks around my parts and I think I fared a lot better than I would have at CC or BB.

Dealers around here talk and talk about comparative auditions and making choices based on that while thumbing their noses at folks who bought ID. But in todays world, how realistic is a comparative audition for the majority of us? What you guys preach simply doesn't match up with reality for most of those wanting higher end than CC or BB, don't have any mid-fi AV retailers within 200 miles, and don't have the dough to get with a high-end retailer...and then you make a snide remark about how people in my position are probably going to make a mistake in trying to avoid one.

Tell me, in my shoes...what path would you have taken for a $2-3k 5.1 speaker system with no mid-fi retailers around for a comprehensive audition?
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post #375 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bhull302 View Post

What you guys preach simply doesn't match up with reality for most of those wanting higher end than CC or BB, don't have any mid-fi AV retailers within 200 miles, and don't have the dough to get with a high-end retailer...and then you make a snide remark about how people in my position are probably going to make a mistake in trying to avoid one.

Tell me, in my shoes...what path would you have taken for a $2-3k 5.1 speaker system with no mid-fi retailers around for a comprehensive audition?

Despite all that I'm not sure how buying blind (deaf) is a better choice.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #376 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 10:13 PM
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Despite all that I'm not sure how buying blind (deaf) is a better choice.

And what other choice do I have? I bought based of numerous reviews and published objective measurements. And if they sound like crap then I get to send them back. See, thats the beauty of the ID model, I can even audition several ID brands at once right in my living room while sucking a few cold ones down without a commissioned salesman breathing down my neck.

So I ask my question again to a different person, what would you have done differently in my shoes?

You guys bash and bash the ID customers like myself with no audition choices and offer no alternatives. You guys only respond based off the fact the B&M mid-fi business is on its way to a slow death (see title of thread for proof) and your pissed off about it.

And for the record, I have said this in other threads, I came into the surround market with no prior prejudice, some money, no mid-fi dealers to audition for me and some time to do research. In the end after reading dozens of reviews, dozens of articles and probably in excess of 1000 or 2000 posts here in these forums, I landed at Axiom. I am sad that all these stores are closing and people are loosing their jobs, I would have loved to audition many speakers at B&M dealer despite my comment above about salesmen breathing down my neck.

The cold hard facts at least to me who has only been poking around this stuff for the last four months is this: The ID model works. The biggest gripe from the dealers is the lack of comparatively auditioning speakers, so the IDs say fine, audition them in your home and send them back if they aren't good enough. Then the dealers say "well they aren't such a good deal as they seem due to the size of the ID companies and the economies of scale of the big boys" but these same folks don't ever provide proof of this. They complain about people buying unheard or without comparing, yet they won't even take the IDs up on their offer and park the ID flagships in their shops to compare for themselves. One thing has made itself crystal clear to me in my few months here, the B&M dealers are on the defensive and the ID guys are on the offensive.

Capitalism is a form of Darwinism, adapt or die. IDs saw the niche they could fill, brought out product, and are pushing out the old established way of doing things because of a lack of adaption to the changing field of e-commerce and the more educated customer. Tweeter could have pulled things out with a hybrid ID + B&M model.

God, to think four months ago I couldn't have cared less about B&M vs ID, hadn't even heard of it, to think I WANTED to go the B&M route, WANTED the big boy brand name in my living room. Now look at me, I sound like a bona fide ID fanboi and my speakers wont be here for another week or so.

Sorry if this post sounds harsh, a couple one-liner responses here rubbed me a little wrong, maybe thats why after coming into this with no preconceptions I firmly landed on the ID side of the fence
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post #377 of 401 Old 04-01-2007, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by droht View Post

Not sure I am a normal buyer, but here is my path to ID purchase:

I've found some speakers I like, with the PSB Image B25s at the top of a very short list. Unfortunately dealer is not very customer-friendly. No way can I try speakers at home. I can buy, return and pay restocking fee. I can buy the B25s on line, but that doesn't make a ton of sense. About the same time I am talking this thru with a friend who has a friend with an Ascend set up. 340s across front, 170s for rears in a 7.1. He is cool about letting me have a listen, and I am kind of blown away. 170s are every bit as good as PSB25s to me, and they are being driven by a mid level Yamaha AVR as opposed to McIntosh separates on the B25s.
...
Still not certain, but leaning hard toward 170s. I call and e-mail PSB dealer to see if I can bring 170s in to his store for a comparison and I get no response.


If these speakers do live up to the buzz I won't even consider walking into a B&M again, unless I'd have a strong recommendation from someone who did business there.

How much a of difference is there between the restocking fee and payng S/H for the return?

A lot of people come in to the online world as a blank slate, unsure of anything relevant to their purchase. This is where the online marketers get them. People stick to the first pieces of information they acquire. Sales tactic - The grass is greener on the other side and sometimes it is.

I think people hold the B&M to an unfair standard, but don't worry they are quickly dying out. The small guys are rare and the chains are struggling. The whole industry is morphing into an online faceless experience. It is happening now and I just wonder what it will become. This change will be interesting, but I am pessimistic about it. Maybe it's just correcting itself.

How many people think they don't have to pay taxes if they get it online?
Seriously?

There's just so many strings everywhere: online vs B&M, ID vs. B&M false marketing aka "free taxes," Brandname agents on these forums, authorized versus non-authorized, the forum itself receives heavy advertising endorsements and sells stuff as a dealer, general watering down of the level of enthusiasts over the last 4 years IMO etc.
I am not passing any judgements here. This is why the grey market has exploded.

One just has to do their best, but don't be ignorant of how things are really working. Very very little in this world is just black and white.
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post #378 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 04:55 AM
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And if they sound like crap then I get to send them back.

Do you suppose they will "sound like crap"?
Bose has taken very few of their direct marketed products back.

Calling out from the grave!
I have a reputation that is above reproach or implied dishonesty.
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post #379 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 05:35 AM
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Not sure if this is in response to my post
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A lot of people come in to the online world as a blank slate, unsure of anything relevant to their purchase. This is where the online marketers get them.

Like I said, my first online discovery was Orb Audio. I really expected to buy those speakers, but a little more diligence changed my mind.

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I think people hold the B&M to an unfair standard

What would that standard be? A little customer service? The issue is that the IDs set the bar kind of high on service, and the B&Ms that I've been in are mostly going the other way. Which I kind of understand now, seeing more and more dealers post here who just seem bitter and pissed off at their customers.

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How much a of difference is there between the restocking fee and payng S/H for the return?

I ordered speakers with no risk return policy. Costs me $0 if I don't like them, and I get to try them in my home, and for 30 days.
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post #380 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 07:13 AM
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That has got to be the worst electronics store I ever went to (Costa Mesa location only). There were always about 5 or so salesmen (They usually outnumbered the customers) huddled around the cash register who hardly ever attempted to move their butts. I even went there once for an advertised special and no one offered to find one for me. I found it myself and one of the elderly sales guy wouldn't sell it to me and made up some excuse. I won't miss any of the guys from the Costa Mesa location.

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well..... its about time they closed the tweeter over in costa Mesa, CA. Now I wonder what that salesmen over there has to say now. He would come on this website and push Tweeter products under the jizz of being an audiophile, when confronted, he would talk about how wonderful Tweeter was... Nirvana....Ha!

Hope they have a 50% off sale, then try to get anoter 10%.

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post #381 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bhull302 View Post

See, thats the beauty of the ID model, I can even audition several ID brands at once right in my living room while sucking a few cold ones down without a commissioned salesman breathing down my neck.

And thereby equally skewing your perception of the speaker.

Perhaps B&Mers should get a liquor license for their shops--it would equalize the alcohol equation during in-home auditions and put them on equal footing.

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You guys bash and bash the ID customers like myself with no audition choices and offer no alternatives. You guys only respond based off the fact the B&M mid-fi business is on its way to a slow death (see title of thread for proof) and your pissed off about it.

We heard this BS 10 years ago, and so far, only the ill-equipped/funded orgs have gone by the wayside. Good dealers think this is good news.

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The cold hard facts at least to me who has only been poking around this stuff for the last four months is this: The ID model works. The biggest gripe from the dealers is the lack of comparatively auditioning speakers, so the IDs say fine, audition them in your home and send them back if they aren't good enough.

In comparison to what? That's the issue. If you only want to compare what you have to ID stuff, fine. The best time to have an in-home audition is only after the choice has been whittled down at the store--the home test is the final stage to see if they work OK in your environment (although that's kinda silly too, given the fact that your room may not always be the same--or even in the same home, but whatever. Gotta give people what they think they need I suppose).

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Then the dealers say "well they aren't such a good deal as they seem due to the size of the ID companies and the economies of scale of the big boys" but these same folks don't ever provide proof of this. They complain about people buying unheard or without comparing, yet they won't even take the IDs up on their offer and park the ID flagships in their shops to compare for themselves. One thing has made itself crystal clear to me in my few months here, the B&M dealers are on the defensive and the ID guys are on the offensive.

The only thing that's crystal clear is that all ID brands are put on the same level, even though in no other category of consumer product does that happen. With a broad brush, some here assume (or assert, which is even funnier) that because a brand is ID, the value is superior. This is, without exception, lacking a consistent comparison across all price points. I think what dealers are upset about is the fact that these assertions are made from a seemingly-authoritative perspective, giving credence to the theory without anything other than net hysteria to back it up.

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Capitalism is a form of Darwinism, adapt or die.

Blah blah blah. Did you cut and paste that phrase from a post in 1998?

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IDs saw the niche they could fill, brought out product, and are pushing out the old established way of doing things because of a lack of adaption to the changing field of e-commerce and the more educated customer. Tweeter could have pulled things out with a hybrid ID + B&M model.

Yes--Dealers need to address the net, but the best way is to still draw people into the store and give the customer a contact in-store. Do not confuse ID brand strategy with what B&Mers need to do to satisfy the PERCEPTION that some consumers have that internet purchases are superior.

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God, to think four months ago I couldn't have cared less about B&M vs ID, hadn't even heard of it, to think I WANTED to go the B&M route, WANTED the big boy brand name in my living room. Now look at me, I sound like a bona fide ID fanboi and my speakers wont be here for another week or so.

Thanks to the power of AVS brainwashing, you're a fanboi and haven't even heard your speakers yet. Ca-lassic. And, speaks to the point some of us have been making.

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Sorry if this post sounds harsh, a couple one-liner responses here rubbed me a little wrong, maybe thats why after coming into this with no preconceptions I firmly landed on the ID side of the fence

I'm glad a debate online from people you don't know (and probably never will) has influenced your listening decision. I'd stop typing now lest you be branded a lemming my friend.

Somehow, even if you don't like what you hear, I doubt we'll hear anything but superlatives.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #382 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 09:22 AM
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I just buy big pretty boxes that make sounds and pay too much for them, but I cannot help myself!
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post #383 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by droht View Post

What would that standard be? A little customer service? The issue is that the IDs set the bar kind of high on service, and the B&Ms that I've been in are mostly going the other way. Which I kind of understand now, seeing more and more dealers post here who just seem bitter and pissed off at their customers.

I ordered speakers with no risk return policy. Costs me $0 if I don't like them, and I get to try them in my home, and for 30 days.

Droht,
I was not addressing you except for the part about return S/H costs versus restocking fees.
At one time CC and BB were considered decent places to see equipment. It would potentially be hooked up. People like to see stuff in person and not just an airbrushed internet photo. As margins have gone down, so has the quality of these locations.

Would anyone seriously prefer all of their local spots for demonstration disappear? No, of course not.

BTW, most ID products don't pay for S/H in returns. Some do (AV123 and some others) but most do not. Most of the time that in-home trial is not free, very few things in life are.
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post #384 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by droht View Post

Which I kind of understand now, seeing more and more dealers post here who just seem bitter and pissed off at their customers.

I *love* my customers. It's the prospects that sometimes drive me crazy

I do believe there are people that do better with ID for the reason that there are some people that don't enjoy forming relationships or have very good interpersonal skills. That *alone* is a huge market (not saying this applies to everyone, of course!). Basically, people that ask your advice and then refuse to listen to it. Those don't end up being my customers. I know how to solve their woes, but they don't like my solutions because it's not what they want to hear.

However, for the people that listen to me and let me help them, I think they will almost always do way better than if they'd bought stuff on the internet. That's what can make a B&M a better value even if no one wants to believe that the good stuff competes with ID $ for $. And there will be people who do well, don't make any costly mistakes and get great sound for the money via ID. But I see ID gear that measures great (in one or two dimensions) and sound like crap. I've seen ID gear that measures so poorly that it would be considered to be broken even if it does sound good. We all have our place and all find the customers that need and want us the most.

John
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post #385 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

But I see ID gear that measures great (in one or two dimensions) and sound like crap. I've seen ID gear that measures so poorly that it would be considered to be broken even if it does sound good.

Okay. What ID makes, models vs. what "traditional" makes and models?

I've seen loads of recent posts on several threads asking for specifics, but the B&M guy never provides them. Here's your chance.

I'm not trying to call BS or flame you. I hope everyone on these forums appreciate the knowledge and experience of an honest B&M guy trying to do the best for his customers. I know I do.

WAF Evolution: You can forget about that! I'm thinking it over. When are you going to get that thing?
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post #386 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 01:23 PM
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Same old pontificating BS. Say that ID might represent a better value or ask for a specfic example & you get the laundry list of canned answers (though curiously not the one that called for a specific example) with the same old underlying message.

- well really you're just not out type of customer
- you can buy XYZ but when you're ready to move up to real quality please come back
- that question tells me you're not nearly sophisticated enough to understand
- apparently you're too dense to appreciate the subtlety of the schliegen-futzer-9000's
- if it were a good design then it would have XXXYYYYZZZ, just like these schulbly's I sell
- blah, blah, blah......yada, yada, yada

[/quote]However, for the people that listen to me and let me help them, I think they will almost always do way better than if they'd bought stuff on the internet. That's what can make a B&M a better value even if no one wants to believe that the good stuff competes with ID $ for $.[quote]
Then answer the question, name a pair of speakers that might be better than the 170Se's at the SAME price.

Nah, I ain't buying it. The supply chain costs money, that money comes from somewhere. If the prices are the same then something had to give, economies of scale aren't covering the cost.

But then there a folks just gulible enough to believe that they aren't paying for Tiger Wood's contract with Nike when they buy the equipment.

It's just my opinion & it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
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post #387 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droht View Post

I ordered speakers with no risk return policy. Costs me $0 if I don't like them, and I get to try them in my home, and for 30 days.

I hear this everytime. Actually it sounds so verbatim that I have to wonder if this is the typical ID mole pretending to be an end-user.

Actually most "B&M" stores allow you to take home their demo products for a in-home trial.

The ID speakers in home trial is garbage for a couple reasons:

1) Nothing to directly "side by side" compare to.

2) Once you made the purchase and its in your home, MOST people would just assume keep them then have to pack them up and return them.

3) MOST people on AVS are more concerned about being in the "ID club" than whats actually a better product.

You can come to my store, or lots of other B&M stores and demo side by side between 5 different speaker companies, and then AND ONLY THEN if you like something take it home and live with it for a week or so. This is much more conducive to getting the "right" speakers.
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post #388 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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And guess what. It costs you $0!!
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post #389 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AudioArchitect View Post

And guess what. It costs you $0!!

And here lies the great divide: that set of speakers you take home is going to cost you, if you decide to keep them, much more than if they were sold direct. Why? Middle men. The middle men have to make a living, too. I just won't pay for it. There's enough choice among ID gear to keep me happy for some time, and it's growing year by year.

Classic example: Outlaw Audio developed their 950 with the help of Eastech and agreed to allow Eastech to sell it to others in order to recoup development costs. Outlaws' price: $899. Sherbourne's, Atlantic Technology etc's price: $1699. So let's say I could get 20% off with good negotiation skills, it was still $1300 compared to $899. Heck, the President of Outlaw (and Atlantic Technology) has his hands in both markets, and I suppose he's realized that the twains do not meet. For guys that need the help of a traditional store and install companies there's AT. For the guys who frequent these forums, there's Outlaw.

Tony

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post #390 of 401 Old 04-02-2007, 02:34 PM
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AudioArchitect, thanks for making great points. I now see that I am wrong. Kidding.

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I hear this everytime. Actually it sounds so verbatim that I have to wonder if this is the typical ID mole pretending to be an end-user.

Did you read the whole post that came from? I guess I could be a "mole"; and you could be a "rat", but let's stop with the foreplay, it's very boring.

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Actually most "B&M" stores allow you to take home their demo products for a in-home trial.

Well, I mentioned to several of your sales brethern that I was concerned about my particular room - no one offered in home demo. The time I specifically requested it I was told they didn't allow that.

Quote:


The ID speakers in home trial is garbage for a couple reasons:

1) Nothing to directly "side by side" compare to.

2) Once you made the purchase and its in your home, MOST people would just assume keep them then have to pack them up and return them.

Well, you could do multipe IDs side-by-side, or you could just try and decide if they sound really good in your room on your gear. How is that garbage compared to listening to different speakers in different retailers on different gear?

As far as not packing them up to return them, I'm sure that is infinitely easier than taking them back to a B&M. Re-pack them and call UPS or FedX for a pick up, of drop them at one of their stores. All the return paperwork is done on line or via e-mail. Otherwise I have to come in to your store when you are open and maybe wait if you have a sucker...err customer...there. No thanks.

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MOST people on AVS are more concerned about being in the "ID club" than whats actually a better product

You saved the best for last. This seems really dead on, given this is mostly a faceless, nameless forum. I want good sound in my room. If I thought Bose sounded good I really wouldn't care about the thousands of posts here killing them.

Anyway, if there were B&M options near me that offered five options in a price range with great listening options and home demo options I'm quite certain I wouldn't keep engaging in this stupid argument. I would have bought some speakers locally. I guess I am just unlucky with my local options, but it sure seems like lots of other folks are unlucky as well. The 5 or 6 salesguys who post regularly on these threads must be the only good ones left. Or maybe they are just full of crap. Hard to say.
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