Tweeter closing down all California stores! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ericgl View Post

Agreed, but how and where can an aficionado perform such compairisons?

In my area:
Store A carries Def Tech, Maggies, Vandies, and Linn.
Store B, B&W and Dyn.
Store C, Paradigm and Focal
Store D, Monitor, Gallo, Klipsch, and Triangle

So how can I directly compare B&W to say Focal? I can think of several worthy B&M brands I have no chance of auditioning, let alone directly comparing. Are other areas of the country better?

Finding a retailer that carries all brands at once would be almost impossible. However, most of us hit store A, B, C, and D - but depend on our audible memory to fill the gaps. Not really a scientifice or accurate process. However, we can remember what sounded best to us at store A before going to B. Then, collecting the information on the best sounding speaker from store B ... and so on.

However, I find most stores pretty tough to use as a gauge. For example, all of the floorstanders are in an array, on the floor across the front. The bookshelf and monitor speakers are usually up above the floorstanders. In a few stores, this puts the tweeter about a foot above my head, when I'm standing up. Plus, with the bookshelf speakers on some chunk of wall built of wallboard, they don't sound nearly as well as they would in my room on stands at the proper height. Listening to speakers in a store is very far from accurate. It does put us in the ballpark, then the rest - gut feeling, getting the speakers into our own rooms, getting the speakers adjusted on the boundaries, etc. all take over from there and make the magic happen.

Usually, a store listening experience, for me, tells me what doesn't have a chance in my home vs. a speaker that will. If I discerne tonal qualities, or lack thereof, in a speaker, it's off my list. I then focus on what deserves a chance and narrow down my choices from there.
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post #182 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 05:29 AM
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Umm, NO. It is totally a value argument. I've recently listened to a ton of "traditional" speakers, ranging from $1200/pair down to a few hundred. I listened to one ID speaker company (Ascend) where depending on model a pair of speakers cost $600 or less. The only speaker that I thought was in same class as Ascends was a pair of Focals that iirc were $1100. Next closest for me were PSB Image B25s that are $479 I believe. Lots of other brands (Klipsch, DefTech, B&W, Paradigm, Monitor, NHT, Polk) were just not in same league. So for me the Ascends are great speakers and great values, the Focals are just great speakers.

A question and a a thought:
Did you compare side by side?
And if so, I note, positively, that you used the words "for me" as your results mean little to others.
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Is Ascend making more profit $ per speaker than traditional companies? Don't know and don't care.

Your right it shouldn't matter, but some try to tie this into the "value" arguement, when it doesn't matter and they don't know anyway.
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I care about value that I receive. Simplisticly, if speakers cost $200 to make and an ID company sells for $300 they have a 50% margin. If a traditional company sells $200 to produce speakers thru a distributor and a retailer they may only get $250 back (25% margin) and the speakers may sell for $350 because others a taking a piece of the profit. I know this model is obvious, but when I see lots of people posting the ID is not cheaper I get very confused. That statement is not wrong, but simply inadequate. ID can provide better value because of the elimination of distribution and retail. It doesn't have to, but the potential to deliver value is pretty high.

So what your saying is that because it could be a better value it should be thought of that way? I could easily (and I think it has already been done by someone) define the opposite scenario.
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And if ID companies are in fact making more profit per unit than traditionals I believe it benefits consumers. Ascend can put some of that money back into R&D and ultimately offer better speakers. What benefits to consumers did Tweeter's profit dollars per speaker sold bring? I know, semi-adequate listening areas.

Nice that you are using Tweeter , which has been failing for some time now, to illustrate your example.

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I'd rather have the ID guys making better speakers in an effort to outdo each other and audition what I think I want in my home.

But the arguement can be made that it's unlikely more than a handful are comparing them to anything, direct marketing is reliant on the fact that most will like them enough to keep from returning them , the people who are worried about outdoing each other are the ones that think it's likely that their products are going to be auditioned beside the others...this actually is precluding many of the more mass market B&M brands you mentioned as well, as there are few places that carry them that will take the effort to do a comparative demo of them either. Without people doing real comp[arisons quality will likely fall.

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Agreed, but how and where can an aficionado perform such compairisons?

In my area:
Store A carries Def Tech, Maggies, Vandies, and Linn.
Store B, B&W and Dyn.
Store C, Paradigm and Focal
Store D, Monitor, Gallo, Klipsch, and Triangle

So how can I directly compare B&W to say Focal? I can think of several worthy B&M brands I have no chance of auditioning, let alone directly comparing. Are other areas of the country better?

Pick the one you like best from each store, then , after that amount of auditioning you could probably eliminate one or two of the stores offerings from the list because you know that they aren't impressing you near as much as the others, AND-OR they are the wrong color, size, price, style, etc.
When you've whittled dowm to two viable canidates at differant stores, ask the dealers if you could bring another brand in for comparison; buy one set and take it to the other dealer and compare, or buy both and take them home. I never like the idea of a shoot-out with too many brands all at the same time, it's confusing, just keep picking the best of two or three at a time and then work down to the last pair.

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Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #183 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 05:32 AM
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However, I find most stores pretty tough to use as a gauge. For example, all of the floorstanders are in an array, on the floor across the front. The bookshelf and monitor speakers are usually up above the floorstanders. In a few stores, this puts the tweeter about a foot above my head, when I'm standing up. Plus, with the bookshelf speakers on some chunk of wall built of wallboard, they don't sound nearly as well as they would in my room on stands at the proper height. Listening to speakers in a store is very far from accurate.

Get them to make adjustments, say "these aren't really performing to a level I think they are capable of, could we take them off the switching system and reposition them better and check the receiver's settings, etc?"

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Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #184 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

What other industry has this much brand confusion? Name one!

Potato chips.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #185 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 05:50 AM
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Wje, I think that approach is the only practical one that I see, yet Schadenfreude keeps preaching direct compairisons. The inference is (I believe) that B&M offers the consumer this ability. I can't see how.

And the acoustics at different stores plays a major role in what you hear. For example one respected member heard the Pioneer EX three times in different venues the first two he was not impressed, the third he was wowed.
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post #186 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 06:04 AM
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Wje, I think that approach is the only practical one that I see, yet Schadenfreude keeps preaching direct compairisons. The inference is (I believe) that B&M offers the consumer this ability. I can't see how.

No, I think in home is great, but, as I have said countless times before, the reality is few do it, many complain about the amount that has to be put on the credit card, some mention return shipping or occasional restocking fees, some cant get the help or time or cooperation from the "significant other", others can't manage the logistics of being around for the delivery guy and-or getting a big enough vehicle to haul some speakers home in.
I have had customers doing in-home demos (with great success) long before ID and I salute those that will take the time to do it .

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And the acoustics at different stores plays a major role in what you hear. For example one respected member heard the Pioneer EX three times in different venues the first two he was not impressed, the third he was wowed.

I often give speakers another chance when I suspect that less than ideal conditions were adversely affecting their sq, but I do that in my , and other peoples homes too, ask the dealer to try to make it better, set up an appointment at a time when he can change things around.
Have you ever been in a room where the rooms characteristicsare so bad that nothing will sound right without help? Do you tell people to keep trying differant speakers until they find the least offensive ? Should we discount the benifits of speakers that take patience to get right because people almost always place speakers poorly?
Have you ever looked at a bad room's acoustics measurements on paper and said, "wow, I know the speaker that will fix this! It has a 6 db drop-off from 9k to 13k! Get that one!"

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Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #187 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post

A question and a a thought:
Did you compare side by side? And if so, I note, positively, that you used the words "for me" as your results mean little to others.

S, someday you'll figure out that despite how much you know and have to say, it gets lost when you say it in such a harsh and overstated way.

There wouldn't be much need for this forum if it were true that one person's comments meant nothing to anyone else.

Hey, wait a minute ...
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post #188 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post


Pick the one you like best from each store, then , after that amount of auditioning you could probably eliminate one or two of the stores offerings from the list because you know that they aren't impressing you near as much as the others, AND-OR they are the wrong color, size, price, style, etc.
When you've whittled dowm to two viable canidates at differant stores, ask the dealers if you could bring another brand in for comparison; buy one set and take it to the other dealer and compare, or buy both and take them home. I never like the idea of a shoot-out with too many brands all at the same time, it's confusing, just keep picking the best of two or three at a time and then work down to the last pair.

WHile I think this is a worthy discussion, I'd like to take a turn more on topic. B&M bretheren, how would you set up a sucessful store? Consumers, what would like to see in a store?
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post #189 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post

Have you ever looked at a bad room's acoustics measurements on paper and said, "wow, I know the speaker that will fix this! It has a 6 db drop-off from 9k to 13k! Get that one!"

I have seen members recommend an electronics upgrade to what is apparently an in-room FR problem.
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post #190 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 06:25 AM
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B&M bretheren, how would you set up a sucessful store? Consumers, what would like to see in a store?

I'd like to have one large room with a large cross section of gear for quick switching between systems, only moderately treated as poor positioning, the switching components, and the sheer number of products won't make this a great room for sq anyway.

Then a room with a couple of differant front ends; one great and one average. This room should be built like normal construction and to average family room size and decorated normally with some passive concessions made to making it sound fairly average (not too ofensive). Then into this room differant speakers could be brought in as requested or needed.

Third would be a room like the second, only measured and treated properly for the same purpose, but with differant front ends (though again an average and a better system) for variety's sake.

Then I would do two theater rooms like the last two rooms mentioned only outfitted with 2 complete systems each (one system in the untreated room being identical to one in the treated room).
One system could be an asthetically integrated solution , while the other could be more conventional stand alones for possible swap-out.

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Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #191 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 06:26 AM
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I have seen members recommend an electronics upgrade to what is apparently an in-room FR problem.

A SS Rcvr with auto-eq will fix that anyway.

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Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #192 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 07:25 AM
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Video- Mainly for demo rooms perhaps a couple high end Plasmas and PJs, leave the rest to the box stores.

Electronics- Good selection of mid-fi seperates and a couple of high enders.

Speakers- 3 or 4 lines, mostly complete with a couple of smaller companies' models (Era comes to mind) thrown in.

Layout- A general showroom for browsers, 2 to 4 demo rooms, different sizes, where passionate salespeople could set up demos with speakers from the showroom floor. I like the idea of a treated vs. untreated room.

Inventory- I can wait a week or two to receive my purchase, just have demos.
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post #193 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post

A question and a a thought:
Did you compare side by side?
And if so, I note, positively, that you used the words "for me" as your results mean little to others.

Still new around here, but lurked for 2 months before registering.

You are right in that his individual results mean little to others, however, his results pooled with others results have value.

Over and over, I have read about people doing direct compares of the ID brands with much more expensive B&M brands, and over and over do I see these folks being blown away when the ID brands sound as good as their much more expensive B&M competition. These comparisons have been done by professional reviewers and by people around here who simply took their speakers to their buddies houses. I do not have any direct links, but I have found these comparisons all over the net by efficiently using google. Could this be a form a guerilla marketing? Sure it could, and I kept that in mind, however I believe the overwhelming positive feedback on ID brands far surpasses what these companies could have pulled off with guerilla tactics. Also, when you look at the fanatical following of the ID brands by people who are well read and experienced, the only conclusion a newbie such as myself can come to is that ID really does make quality products at very reasonable prices.

I came into the surround speaker market with no prejudice, no prior knowledge, and some money. Instead of running out there to buy the first thing I saw, I spent the months of December, January, February and March researching technical articles and reading many reviews. I live in Utah were there is next to nothing for true auditions. Even after reading what the B&M (comparison) advocates had to say, I decided to go with Axiom. Freq response graphs simply dont lie (objective) and thousands of positive reviews, and many reviews where the writer was simply blown away can't be wrong (subjective).

And don't get me wrong, I would have loved to be able to go into a real AV dealer and auditioned many speakers, I wouldn't have cared if I paid an extra 10-15% for the ability to compare and have expert advice on hand. The simple reality is these shops are disappearing, and ID brands are filling that niche at least for some of us who would have walked into one of these shops.

Here is a question, B&M dealers often say that ID brands aren't such the high price/performance deal they claim to be, however, has there been a single one who bought a pair of Axioms, Rockets, or Aperions and set them up in their stores to show the customers (or show themselves) how economies of scale outstrips any percieved value these IDs may have?
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post #194 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 08:50 AM
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Did you compare side by side?
And if so, I note, positively, that you used the words "for me" as your results mean little to others.

Some brands were compared side-by-side, depends on what each retailer had. As others have mentioned, trying to do any kind of good wide scale demo is basically impossible. We all need to know that "for me" is critical when anyone talks about speakers here, but at the same time I think it is valuable to read a lot of opinions and then distill them down as a way to understand what speakers or types of speakers you might like.

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So what your saying is that because it could be a better value it should be thought of that way? I could easily (and I think it has already been done by someone) define the opposite scenario.

I'm saying that ID seems to logically offer more value, as the mfg can charge less and still make more. Doesn't mean he will, obviously, but without tearing open a speaker (and having a clue about what you will see) how can I determine if Ascend is using better components than Brand X (or whomever)?

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Nice that you are using Tweeter , which has been failing for some time now, to illustrate your example.

Tweeter is not important, pick any store name you want. My point is that I have not walked into very many A/V retailers whom I'd want to support. I'd rather have the Ascends of the world use the extra profit dollars for higher levels of QC or painstaking new design processes or whatever. I think I benefit more from that than from supporting the pompous jackass at the Audio Boutique, or the Tweeter with no niche, or the CC with massive volumes of stuff and low prices.
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post #195 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bhull302 View Post

Still new around here, but lurked for 2 months before registering.

You are right in that his individual results mean little to others, however, his results pooled with others results have value.

Over and over, I have read about people doing direct compares of the ID brands with much more expensive B&M brands, and over and over do I see these folks being blown away when the ID brands sound as good as their much more expensive B&M competition. These comparisons have been done by professional reviewers and by people around here who simply took their speakers to their buddies houses. I do not have any direct links, but I have found these comparisons all over the net by efficiently using google. Could this be a form a guerilla marketing? Sure it could, and I kept that in mind, however I believe the overwhelming positive feedback on ID brands far surpasses what these companies could have pulled off with guerilla tactics. Also, when you look at the fanatical following of the ID brands by people who are well read and experienced, the only conclusion a newbie such as myself can come to is that ID really does make quality products at very reasonable prices.

I came into the surround speaker market with no prejudice, no prior knowledge, and some money. Instead of running out there to buy the first thing I saw, I spent the months of December, January, February and March researching technical articles and reading many reviews. I live in Utah were there is next to nothing for true auditions. Even after reading what the B&M (comparison) advocates had to say, I decided to go with Axiom. Freq response graphs simply dont lie (objective) and thousands of positive reviews, and many reviews where the writer was simply blown away can't be wrong (subjective).

And don't get me wrong, I would have loved to be able to go into a real AV dealer and auditioned many speakers, I wouldn't have cared if I paid an extra 10-15% for the ability to compare and have expert advice on hand. The simple reality is these shops are disappearing, and ID brands are filling that niche at least for some of us who would have walked into one of these shops.

Here is a question, B&M dealers often say that ID brands aren't such the high price/performance deal they claim to be, however, has there been a single one who bought a pair of Axioms, Rockets, or Aperions and set them up in their stores to show the customers (or show themselves) how economies of scale outstrips any percieved value these IDs may have?

Wow. Couldn't have (and didn't) said it better myself. Bhull placed value above all else and look where he ended up. Now if he needed in-walls and installation, he would have gone to a CI. If money was no object, he wouldn't have put in all the time and just walked into the boutique and said "I want the best speakers you got." If money was the object, he would have gone to CC or BB and picked up a HTIB. Value consumers are a small, but growing, segment of the market and the B&M business model prevents them from competing there. That's the problem with the audio side of the Tweeter's and Ultimate's who simply have not found success atempting to carve a niche in mid-fi. I'm not saying there isn't room for B&M retailers, just not in the value game.
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post #196 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bhull302 View Post

Here is a question, B&M dealers often say that ID brands aren't such the high price/performance deal they claim to be, however, has there been a single one who bought a pair of Axioms, Rockets, or Aperions and set them up in their stores to show the customers (or show themselves) how economies of scale outstrips any percieved value these IDs may have?

I have. Well, I traded in about 4 pairs of Axioms, a couple of Hsus and an SVS. Haven't heard any of the others yet. I haven't heard any magic bullets yet, though I would say that most ID stuff is a better value than most mass market stuff and at least some "high-end" stuff, but certainly not top of the heap, at least when you consider that we also discount from retail. If you go ID price to retail, sure, that's a lot more competitive, but we don't operate that way because my eyes are wide open to the dangers of internet.

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post #197 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:13 AM
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I would say that most ID stuff is a better value than most mass market stuff and at least some "high-end" stuff, but certainly not top of the heap, at least when you consider that we also discount from retail. If you go ID price to retail, sure, that's a lot more competitive, but we don't operate that way because my eyes are wide open to the dangers of internet.

I don't think I'm alone when I say I hate haggling. That's the worst part about buying a car - something that should be a pleasurable experience and the reason the largest dealership in the US is CarMax. I shouldn't have to stand there and hem and haw and make statements like "well it's about 20% more than I wanted to spend" to get the negotiation started. Then evaluate counter-offers that include Monster Cable and extended warranties that I don't want any more than undercoating or "special financing." When I was auditioning, I carried $2000 in cash with me in case I heard something that blew me away and I could dangle it in front of the dealer like a canned ham in front of Oprah. "Right now, no tax, out the door, offer expires in 30 seconds, take it or leave it."

Even then, I heard nothing that could compete with the Ascends for the price, except the BG Z-series, but the dealer wouldn't budge off MSRP unless I purchased the surrounds and sub, the latter designed by someone thinking more about classical than carnage. Just go to another BG dealer? Right. He was 300 miles away. Gas and time alone would eat up any discount and then some.
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post #198 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:24 AM
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I don't think I'm alone when I say I hate haggling.

That's why we do it the way we do. I hate haggling as much as customers, probably more. It's too adversarial. We seem to have achieved a nice "peace", though no one is getting rich here.......

John
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post #199 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 10:26 AM
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Video...........

Albuquerque is nice this time of year

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post #200 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:18 AM
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When I was auditioning, I carried $2000 in cash with me in case I heard something that blew me away and I could dangle it in front of the dealer like a canned ham in front of Oprah.

Awesome.

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Albuquerque is nice this time of year

He has a store there which sells NHT and other brands.
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post #202 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:53 AM
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Albuquerque is nice this time of year

What will the weather like when the T-175 arrives?
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post #203 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 11:59 AM
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Sunny with a nice breeze

John
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post #204 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 12:58 PM
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You are right in that his individual results mean little to others, however, his results pooled with others results have value.

Unless watered down by hidden bias and agendas.

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Could this be a form a guerilla marketing? Sure it could, and I kept that in mind, however I believe the overwhelming positive feedback on ID brands far surpasses what these companies could have pulled off with guerilla tactics.

These things, if that is what is going on, tend to gain there own groupthink momentum through net parrotting.
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Also, when you look at the fanatical following of the ID brands by people who are well read and experienced, the only conclusion a newbie such as myself can come to is that ID really does make quality products at very reasonable prices.

And that's the conclusion you are expected to reach. Maybe true , maybe not, but a generalization that really should have little impact on a type of product that is such a personal choice, where opinions will differ.

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I came into the surround speaker market with no prejudice, no prior knowledge, and some money. Instead of running out there to buy the first thing I saw, I spent the months of December, January, February and March researching technical articles and reading many reviews. I live in Utah were there is next to nothing for true auditions.

Then your situation is differant and you made good choices given your situation.
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Even after reading what the B&M (comparison) advocates had to say, I decided to go with Axiom. Freq response graphs simply dont lie (objective)

They are a good starting point but they don't tell the whole story, nor do they tell me which I'll prefer.
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and thousands of positive reviews, and many reviews where the writer was simply blown away can't be wrong (subjective).

Wrong? Not the word I would choose.

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And don't get me wrong, I would have loved to be able to go into a real AV dealer and auditioned many speakers, I wouldn't have cared if I paid an extra 10-15% for the ability to compare and have expert advice on hand. The simple reality is these shops are disappearing, and ID brands are filling that niche at least for some of us who would have walked into one of these shops.

Agreed.

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Here is a question, B&M dealers often say that ID brands aren't such the high price/performance deal they claim to be, however, has there been a single one who bought a pair of Axioms, Rockets, or Aperions and set them up in their stores to show the customers (or show themselves) how economies of scale outstrips any percieved value these IDs may have?

I've had people bring them in for comparison purposes , and done quite well allowing it.

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Even then, I heard nothing that could compete with the Ascends for the price, except the BG Z-series, but the dealer wouldn't budge off MSRP

How much did Ascend discount?

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Maybe someday in the future we will be able to quantify perceived Sound Quality .
(But not today....)

Earl Geddes Ph.D.
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post #205 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post

How much did Ascend discount?

Are you implying that consumers want a discount (a perceived deal) and not simply a good overall value? I can get a pair of 170s for $368 shipped, no discount. Maybe you'll sell me some B&W 602 S3s that list at $600 for $450, which I am supposed to feel good about I guess? Except that I don't think the B&Ws are even good enough to be used as stands for the 170s. You can discount them to hell and back and I won't buy them. Value is about more than price. If it wasn't then it would just be called "price".

Ascend doesn't discount (I don't think) beyond package deals they show on their web site that are available to everyone. Doesn't matter what some sales guy thinks of you.


thanks Muzz - edit to fix price of 170s
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post #206 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 01:23 PM
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FWIW

170 SE's are 368 Shipped, 348+20 bux FLAT rate shipping.
Not THAT important, but thats almost 100 bux, and thats alot to me.

I want MY Cigarettes, MINE Nurse Ratched!!
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post #207 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Schadenfreude View Post

How much did Ascend discount?

Didn't have to. There was no dealer with a 50% margin to work with. The BGs were comparable overall. Now that I've lived with the Ascends, I'd give my 340s the edge in HT, but I'd definitely take the BGs for music. The very definition of "smooth yet detailed." But with an MSRP of $1500 plus tax for the LCR, the Ascends were less than 2/3 the price delivered. Had the dealer accepted my offer of $1200 cash tax included, he would have made the sale and I'd be singing a different song today with regard to ID vs. B&M. The extra $250 for the BGs over the Ascends would have been worth it for the finish alone (anyone at Ascend listening? Mark will build them for cheap!) and I wouldn't have had to steal my wife's plant stands. While he dealer would still have made a 30% margin on the sale, I think it's fair to say the BGs were the exception to the rule in terms of B&M value, possibly a loss leader for the manufacturer, and damn near impossible to find, much less audition, for the average consumer.
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post #208 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by droht View Post

Maybe you'll sell me some B&W 602 S3s that list at $600 for $450, which I am supposed to feel good about I guess? Except that I don't think the B&Ws are even good enough to be used as stands for the 170s. You can discount them to hell and back and I won't buy them. Value is about more than price. If it wasn't then it would just be called "price".

Great. Now Pulliam's gonna show up here and set us all straight.
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post #209 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 01:30 PM
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Nahh, I think I missed him on a Friday afternoon. This thread'll be buried by Monday. I would have never posted something so ridiculous early in the work week.
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post #210 of 401 Old 03-30-2007, 02:08 PM
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Didn't have to. There was no dealer with a 50% margin to work with. The BGs were comparable overall. Now that I've lived with the Ascends, I'd give my 340s the edge in HT, but I'd definitely take the BGs for music.

That statement shows me a lack of quality for the Ascends.
The old statement, speakers that are good for music will be more than adequate for HT, but the opposite is rarely true.
And if the speakers in question are VERY good for music, then you've really got it all.
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