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Musically tuned Speakers-New Trend.

11K views 165 replies 31 participants last post by  Alimentall 
#1 ·
Has anyone actually listened to one of these new tuned, resonating, undamped speakers?


I counted at least 4 companies making newly designed models. Onkyo being the biggest.
 
#52 ·
I am responding to your comments as if meant as written and not as satire since I didn't see any smileys to indicate otherwise in your post, . (If otherwise, I apologize.) For a glossary of common terms to describe sounds, see: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html

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Originally Posted by greeniguana00 /forum/post/0


Color is a very vague word meaning "how things sound". I take it to mean the amount of enjoyable details in the sound. The sound of a clarinet would have a different color than the sound of an oboe. When talking about amps, I take it as a synonym with tone.

Generally, it refers to errors in frequency balance.

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Flow is how the sound sounds as time goes on. A tube amp which gives a nice ring to the sound would have good flow because during times of silence after a loud section, there would be an enjoyable ring to fill the silence.
I hope not. That is called ringing and is an obvious distortion.

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To me, "body" means how solid it sounds. If that is still too vague, it means, how well represented are the loudest parts of a recording. A clipping tube amp might beat a clipping transformer amp because the tube amp would have soft clipping, which would give better body.

You are conflating "body" with dynamics.

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I have no idea what "euphonia" is supposed to mean.
Sounds like a combination of the word euphoria and phono which would imply perfect sound.

I hope not! It means "good sounding" which may or may not be congruent with accuracy. That one, btw, is in the dictionary.

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I was thinking. With all this talk of "accuracy to the recording", do people actually know what they are talking about? Does faithfulness to the recording actually mean you are getting better sound? Does it even mean you are getting the "intended" sound? NO! It doesn't. A live recording is colored by the microphone (there is no such thing as an uncolored microphone or speaker). Your amp/speakers must be colored in a way that will cancel out the coloration of the microphone.

So, you have a different speaker system for each and every different microphone used for your recordings, assuming you even know which one was used.

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A mixed recording is colored by the mixer who makes the recording with the intention of it sounding like it does to HIS EARS through HIS EQUIPMENT. Your amp/speakers must be colored to make your ears hear what they should.

Neat trick (and logically impossible).

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Think about it, TVs have color, brightness, sharpness, contrast, and hue controls. I don't see videophiles complaining about these "coloring" the video.

Wrong again. See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=139
 
#53 ·
There is more to hearing than just pitch and intensity. You cannot completely describe any human sense with current, innadequate, physical terms.


Just as my moniker describes "perfect" (to an engineer) human vision, the reality of perfect vision is far beyond it.


Keep doubting until you doubt your doubts.


Everyone's ears are different and everyone hears sounds differently. Just because you like to think that accuracy to the mixer is your bag, does not mean it is to everyone else.


I continue to go back to the popularity of tube amps and red wine as perfect examples.


You and your cheerleaders are only one side of the coin. Apparently, there is another.
 
#54 ·

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Originally Posted by twenty/twenty /forum/post/0


Just because you like to think that accuracy to the mixer is your bag, does not mean it is to everyone else.

But there is no alternative. You can EQ to taste but that is too subjective. You can have more than one system but that's only a clumsy form of EQ. Any fixed coloration in the reproduction is like a stopped clock; it is rarely accurate.
 
#55 ·
In fact it's the old 'musical' vs accurate debate and basically two opposing schools of thoughts. You could have perfect speakers which would reproduce sound perfectly and some would still prefer other speakers to them...


About tube amps. It's interesting now that with modeling, you can have tube sound with a solid state. For example, for 30 bucks you can buy Izotope's Ozone. http://izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/ (well you need to run it off a pc). So you can really get the best of both worlds. Solid State amps, and tube sound at the press of a button. And the best of it, 30$, and you can turn it off or tune it exactly how you like. Without having to spend thousands of dollars for tubes amps and having to deal with real tubes.


I really can't say that it sounds as good as a 5000$ Conrad Johnson tube amp (never owned one) but I must say that for me, it's enough, and has really convinced me *not* to spend a thousand dollars to get into tube amps for what a consider to be "a cool effect". Certainly it sounds very close to my ears, given that it's an area where ignorance is bliss, I'm not willing to push the matter too far



In the same vein, there now exists another incredible piece of technology called equalizers... Where people can 'tune' their sound for their own preference, room, etc.. In any case, you can get a digital one which will have absolutely no negative impact for like 300$. Again... No need to change speakers, and you can absolute flexibility at the press of a button.


Totem also sprung into my mind reading this thread. I remember reading some stuff concerning their cabinets and tuning resonances or something, but can't find it exactly...


Vinyl also springs to mind as similar to tube vs ss, accurate vs musical speakers... Some swear by them. I never could exactly figure out what was so great about them... Scratchs, pops, hiss...
 
#56 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by greeniguana00 /forum/post/0


Think about it, TVs have color, brightness, sharpness, contrast, and hue controls. I don't see videophiles complaining about these "coloring" the video.

Uh, actually videophiles complain about these things all the time. That's why people calibrate their displays. There are video standards that define the playback environment, the encode, etc etc etc. These things must be adhered to in order to view an accurately reproduced image as intend by the content producers. Those controls exist so that those parameters can be properly aligned, not just willy nilly.
 
#57 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty /forum/post/0


There is more to hearing than just pitch and intensity. You cannot completely describe any human sense with current, innadequate, physical terms.


Just as my moniker describes "perfect" (to an engineer) human vision, the reality of perfect vision is far beyond it.

As any clinician will agree 20/20 is a limited and relative assessment and is, of course, a totally inadequate standard for perfect vision as it fails to include known parameters such as color, dynamic adaptation, visual fields, etc. I am well aware of all inability to describe all the parameters of all sensations but we can describe many of them quite well.


However, the subjective awareness and description of sensory events (such as what a clarinet sounds like via one speaker or another) lies in the area of perception, well beyond transduction and coding, and relies on one's experience, memory and mood. These are, in many ways, only tenuously related to the actual sensory event.
 
#58 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty /forum/post/0


Keep doubting until you doubt your doubts.

Go ahead. See where that got Descartes...

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Everyone's ears are different and everyone hears sounds differently. Just because you like to think that accuracy to the mixer is your bag, does not mean it is to everyone else.

This is not relevant.

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I continue to go back to the popularity of tube amps and red wine as perfect examples.

Your metaphor is flawed. How many people add flavoring to their wines or drink wine out of a flavored glass?

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You and your cheerleaders are only one side of the coin. Apparently, there is another.

Of course there is another side. Just as there is another side to sanity.
 
#59 ·

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This place has really gone downhill in the last 6 years. Now I dont want to get off on a rant here but this place is fast becoming a circus of pissing matches, defending ones purchases

Well , I think there's always been a lot of that, but as a forum becomes more popular it is a more ripe target for propaganda and marketing.

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There is no better press than praise on this site.

It's sad that some people new to this hobby might give it so much credibility
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Why is hifisoundguy who is literally a spammer even allowed to post here?

It's the less obvious ones that should worry us more.

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2. Too many agendas. We all know wire will not make an AUDIBLE difference in sound when proper gage is used.

Actually, you know it, presumably by listening and testing yourself, otherwise the "agendas" are influencing you.
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Yet its amazing how those who claim differently either have been duped into buying such wire (and feel the need to defend it), or are those selling it.

...Or those who have found conclusions differant from yours through differant experiances.
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What a coincidence that these posters are the ones claiming it makes a difference.

I sell more expensive cables sometimes , but I don't believe that there is usually a need for anything more than simply adequate and relatively inexpensive. However, many customers think otherwise, and their opinion counts to.

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4. the10 new "what is the best speaker" thread every other day. Or what I think is even worse a thread being started about something that could have been answered with a 10 second google search.

This is John Q Public's Google spot for just such a question, where do you suppose they should go?
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I think anyone coming here asking any question about what _____ is best should have the thread deleted. It clogs up the forum with stupidity. A quick search or better yet a quick look at the current topics will usually have the same subject in it.

Unless they're all deleated....


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5. People who think that doing all of the auditioning of all these different speakers, in all these different rooms and environments, with all the different amps and sources are going to really be able to make a fair comparison of such speaker..

While direct comparisons are always prefered and definately the best way to get a handle on things, there is a lot to be learned just through sheer exposure to NUMBEROUS differant systems...it develops some sort of framework and some benchmarks. It may not be quite so helpful with specific choices, but does begin to develop in the listener some overview of positives and negatives.

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6. My favorite - the new PC Left Wing crowd that seems to be out to protect the Bose and Monster Cables of the world. Using the wonderful argument that the products must be great since the companies are so successful.

I think that you are mistakingly interpreting the arguement, that some have made, that these companies understand their customer and demographic and they are good at giving these people what's right for them, I haven't read posts saying this makes them great at making product for everyone.

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Years ago on here Bose discussions did not get drawn out into 20 pages of rambling crap. It was a single short thread basically summing up their position in the market. Now you have all these posters in here to debunk these bashers and the knowledgable veteran posters who have heard the same tired argument again and again don't even bother wasting time in the thread.

What a shame it is that now there are people who aren't afraid to keep their mouths shut when they read the parrots hopping on the bashwagon for the thousandth time.

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7. Posters in general here have become an embarrassment to the site. Some of the grammar here is comical. I am not one to notice that stuff but if you are going to bother to post can you at least use full words?
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I feel you on that one,me and a few friends,used to grab a 12 pack after 1 of us bought a new speaker,needless to say,I watched 2 of them sale their speakers and go on a speaker hunt again,i thought it was funny until I bought some Focal Colbalt 816S and then the joke was on me,no drinking a 12 pack showed a huge impact on what I heard when I got them home they were a demo pair with about 400hrs on them needless to say they had me running out of the room with excesive brightness.The point is I really learned critical listening with a new piece of audio gear,should be done without the beverages.

O.k., I feel you on dat 1 'n dis 1 ain'tn dat bad for ma homie


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8. too many wanna be know-it-alls who pass on 100% false and useless info. As in ______ company has gone downhill, when they have not even heard the products. ________ is a bright speaker because such and such, when they are wrong about why a speaker sounds the way it does.....Just shut up already!

But that's the point ...you can't believe every college cheerleader you chat with on line is really being honest either, can you?

There's good info here to be culled out if your knowlegable , suspicious, carefull, etc....but it's a minefield for the newbies. But ALL OF US could be a little less arrogant and opinionated with regards to other posters, the forum seems to evolve as only it can.
 
#60 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty /forum/post/0


Wow,


Lots of negative energy here. What gives guys?


Just a discussion about the latest new trends in speaker design. No need for bashing.

It's marketing hype, not a trend. The marketing guru's always come up with kewl words to hype their product. They use different words to sell to different focus groups.


When I listen to guitar amps, coloration is what I listen for, because that's what a guitar amp is supposed to do. But when I'm buying audio equipment, I want to get the least amount of coloration possible. If you get stuff that colors a bunch every step of the way you can end up with a sonic disaster.
 
#61 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeterex /forum/post/0


Well , I think there's always been a lot of that, but as a forum becomes more popular it is a more ripe target for propaganda and marketing.

Correct. It seems like it was more a hobbist site and its become much more mainstream...which may not be a bad thing.

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It's sad that some people new to this hobby might give it so much credibility


It's the less obvious ones that should worry us more.

I dont think its sad. This should be THE place to get good info on certain things. Its too bad that the site is littered with so many people with agendas. Where I do think its sad however is people coming here asking others what they think THEY will like. How is that possible?


Yes, the less obvious ones are more worrysome...I agree.

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Actually, you know it, presumably by listening and testing yourself, otherwise the "agendas" are influencing you.

Nothing is influencing me.

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...Or those who have found conclusions differant from yours through differant experiances.

Sure, and when the results of these DBTs are posted me and all the other posters who agree with me here will be satisfied. There is nothing that will make us happier than a good DBT showing that cables make an AUDIBLE difference when simialr gages are used.

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I sell more expensive cables sometimes , but I don't believe that there is usually a need for anything more than simply adequate and relatively inexpensive. However, many customers think otherwise, and their opinion counts to.

Sure, many bussiness thrive on what customers perceive. Cable is a perfect example. If a customer comes in and says they want beter cable and you make more profit I guess its a win/win..right? I would tell them they are wasting money but thats just me. I dont make profit off perception...you do, so I understand your position. Again, you sell high end cable so you would be a hypocrate if you called it snake oil and all that jazz...


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This is John Q Public's Google spot for just such a question, where do you suppose they should go?

There are threads which are super and people coming here with legit problems. Then there are people who dont put a shread of thought into what they are asking. This is my opinion. I just think people like to waste time asking questions here when they can fin dit with a simple search on either the web or on this site. Its not a mjor problem but its more common now.

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Unless they're all deleated....

Why, there are many legit threads. You think that every thread is useless?


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While direct comparisons are always prefered and definately the best way to get a handle on things, there is a lot to be learned just through sheer exposure to NUMBEROUS differant systems...it develops some sort of framework and some benchmarks. It may not be quite so helpful with specific choices, but does begin to develop in the listener some overview of positives and negatives.

I agree that its a great starting point. And of course that other peoples opinions on how a speaker sounds to them is not really helpful. However dont you agree that a speaker in a store can sound very different once its in your home?

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I think that you are mistakingly interpreting the arguement, that some have made, that these companies understand their customer and demographic and they are good at giving these people what's right for them, I haven't read posts saying this makes them great at making product for everyone.

I never said Bose was not perfect for certain people or even that Monster was as evil as some say. Please do not tuen this into an "I said BOSE is bad" issue. Not that I am a fan of either company mind you. But... sometimes the defense of a company leads to false info just as much as bashing them does. I have covered this topic in other threads and its a horse that needs to stay the way it is. IT has nothing to do with Bose being good for many people.

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What a shame it is that now there are people who aren't afraid to keep their mouths shut when they read the parrots hopping on the bashwagon for the thousandth time.

Too bad that courage and ignorance seem to go hand and hand though.
 
#62 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawaun da bomb /forum/post/0


And solid state coldness stiffness,2 deminsionality,and over etched and shrill sound are reality?

Jut depends on how much you want your gear to band-aid a bad recording. I could envision audionutz separating recordings based on quality for playback on their tube and SS gear.
 
#63 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/0


I am well aware of all inability to describe all the parameters of all sensations but we can describe many of them quite well.

You finally come clean with this admission.
 
#64 ·

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Sure, and when the results of these DBTs are posted me and all the other posters who agree with me here will be satisfied. There is nothing that will make us happier than a good DBT showing that cables make an AUDIBLE difference when simialr gages are used.

Well , I've seen posts and links and read stories about DBT's that have shown no differance, but they haven't been "good" either, as the number of participants were small and the controls were weak, and the methodology not exactly scientificly flawless.

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Sure, many bussiness thrive on what customers perceive. Cable is a perfect example. If a customer comes in and says they want beter cable and you make more profit I guess its a win/win..right?

Not unless I feel they have their eyes wide open...when they say they want better cable, it usually starts a discussion to see why they feel the need.
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I would tell them they are wasting money but thats just me.

Well, I am usually more diplomatic , and I am not in the habit of forcing my belief that they are wrong on them, but if they haven't arrived at their conclusion legitimately, perhaps, I can convince them that there money is better spent elsewhere (imo).
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I dont make profit off perception...you do, so I understand your position.

Well, some people's perception as to which speakers are better are differant than mine as well, I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say that there is no way they could be right.
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Again, you sell high end cable so you would be a hypocrate if you called it snake oil and all that jazz...

No , I can and do say that I BELIEVE such things, but again, I am not so arrogant as to presume to tell them what they perceive and hear.

Let's not confuse supposition with absolute facts, and let's not tell people because we have seen no evidence to support a belief, that it's the same thing as knowing something is impossible.

I am a "show me" kind of person too, but just because you haven't convinced me something can be, doesn't mean I would presume to tell you it's impossible.
 
#65 ·

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Originally Posted by mziegler /forum/post/0


While most of what you said made sense, I find it more than odd that you would identify Bose and Monster fans as "PC Left Wing."

yeah, i have to say that was a bit unusual, haha.

if anything i thought it the free market rules, let people get ripped off, no consumer protection laws, etc. that was more right wing. anyway, calling it either is stupid.
 
#67 ·
Unbeknownst to schticker, Kal had more than PBA cards from New York's finest in his wallet as he pulled out...

http://sidesplitters.catastrophe.net/arch/2003/*****-slap.jpg


There is only one possible retort that can fell Kal. Will he use it?

 
#68 ·
Kal,


I think it would be great fun if you could get your buddy Sam to review the Onkyo guitar speakers. At $2000, they fall right into his review range. I think he should go after it with the idea that they would be used for an office/bedroom/computer arrangement.


If you talk to him, tell him I find that 3M Imperial Glaze offers a nice improvement in sound quality over Armor All. Moreover, it has the added benefit of polishing out fine scratches in CDs as well.
 
#69 ·
20/20: I rarely speak with Tom except at shows. Next time I see him will probably be at the HES in May. It might be more effective if you sent him an email via the magazine (it will be forwarded). His take on it would be of interest to many, I suspect.
 
#70 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/0


Unbeknownst to schticker, Kal had more than PBA cards from New York's finest in his wallet as he pulled out...

http://sidesplitters.catastrophe.net/arch/2003/*****-slap.jpg


There is only one possible retort that can fell Kal. Will he use it?


Many retorts have stung him. Whether he chooses to come clean instead of fronting is his choice.
 
#72 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty /forum/post/0


Do any of you enjoy music more after a glass of red wine? Is your hearing more accurate after a glass?

20/20, are you implying that if I get a tube amp or tuned speaker or something that The Wall might sound like it did to me when I used to....be in college, 20 yrs ago? If that is the case then sign me up! More audio enjoyment without the risk of incarceration, or serious munchies, would really appeal to me.
 
#76 ·
From Stereophile's own "pages", Stephen Mejias's blog.

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The more I tested, the more I knew: The Onkyos didn't sound right.


The comparisons I'd made so far were primarily based on listening to acoustic guitar music. In this arena, the Onkyos at least stood a chance. After all, I'd been listening to so much of this sort of music partly because of the Onkyos. And, while they didn't always hold their own against the more natural-sounding DeVores, they did provide some truly exciting, and nearly frightening, moments of hi-fi goodness. If nothing else, the Onkyo/Takamine collaboration possesses a notably high jump factor. The sound of the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet banging their hands against the bodies of their classical guitars playing their instruments like Tito Puente playing the timbales was simply startling as conveyed through the D-TK10s. I kept imagining real, live, grown men trapped within the speakers, knocking against the mahogany cabinets, trying to break their ways out.


Such moments of three-dimensional hyper-realism, however, didn't travel with the Onkyos into the world of amplified rock. Or, for that matter, folk-rock. For instance, the sudden snap of the snare drum on Smog's otherwise quiet "Say Valley Maker" from the 2005 album, A River Ain't Too Much To Love, was unfortunately dull. But it was when listening to more complex rock music that the gap between the Onkyos and the DeVores grew wide. Even with the wee-bittest more complex rock music for example, In the Reins, the 2005 collaboration between the whispery Iron and Wine and the brassy Calexico the gap was revelatory. I am so sorry to say that this beautiful album's somber final track, "Dead Man's Will," sounded miserable when communicated through the D-TK10s. Things fell apart. The chorus of delicate voices beneath Sam Beam's gentle lead was dragged across the floor like a tattered wedding dress. A similar sort of distortion marred Dave Lerner's excellent electric bass guitar riffs on Ted Leo and the Pharmacists' Shake the Sheets.


I had to leave the room.


I could go on.


I've failed to mention, however, that, when I wasn't comparing the Onkyos to other speakers, I liked them just fine. It was the comparisons that did them in. But, as Master Marcy said:


Comparing anything is cheap sensationalism. One may enjoy eating carrots without waxing poetic about mushrooms. Can't get paid for silence, but, what are you gonna buy, anyway, asparagus?


Hmm. Anyway.


Speaking of masters: It's been said that the guitar may be the easiest of all instruments to learn, but the most difficult to master. My own guitar-playing technique was built, partly, around the use of several effects boxes. (I simply fake it.) I used a few different reverb units, a phase and a flange, digital delay and echo, sustain, distortion, and chorus pedals. Most of these were employed in various combinations throughout every song in an attempt to create a special tone. That confounding chorus pedal, though, was such a little bugger. When I could actually get it to turn on, the only way I could really use it was with all of its levels set to their max positions. At this setting, the pedal created a pretty neat sci-fi sound, a menacing and powerful whir like a million alien spaceships zooming in for the attack. Despite its coolness, I only ever found a place for it in one song. In that one song, however, the confounding chorus pedal was absolutely wonderful.


And the Onkyo D-TK10 loudspeakers, to me, are kind of like that. They're like little effects boxes. At the right time, with the right song, they can be absolutely wonderful. They are special speakers specialty speakers, in fact that are very good-looking and often lots of fun, that, while showing utter respect for the acoustic guitar and acoustic guitar music, in general, ultimately seem to lack respect for so many other types of instruments and music.
 
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