Musically tuned Speakers-New Trend. - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 166 Old 05-30-2007, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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And tubes have never, ever, been more popular(even when all there was, was tubes).

That includes high end headphone loving tubeiophiles.

Why is this so?

Even the AR REF 7 has tubes in it. Do they make it more or less "accurate"? I'll bet they could have designed the thing without tubes, if they wanted to.
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post #152 of 166 Old 05-30-2007, 06:02 AM
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Tubes represent an infinitesimal niche driven more by hype, ignorance, and an appeal to nostalgia that grows more insignficant every day. Being such a speck on the radar, it does not attract any signficant engineering resources nor does it attract the brightest minds. While it may meet the needs of tube aficiandos, those needs are quite specific being almost cult-like such that they are are not often met by rational and technical solutions.

I do have a couple of old time, floor standing, tube radios though. Nostalgia

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #153 of 166 Old 05-30-2007, 07:08 AM
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Tubes are pretty.

Folk also like some types of distortion.

I have sound equipment.
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post #154 of 166 Old 05-30-2007, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I listened to the Focal Micro Utopias through a Cary CDP coupled to a solid state BAT pre amp and a solid state amp that was switched 20 minutes later, to tube amp.

I immediately prefered the sound of the tube amp and my preference remained after a switch back to the solid state amp.

The first amp was a $4000 solid state amp, the second was a $4000 tube amp.

I was previously, generally biased against tube amps based on personal, negative, experiences with a tube amp and preamp combo I had in the 80's.

I'm still not sure I would own a tube amp, but I can tell you I preffered the sound from it in this otherwise all solid state system. The difference was easy to spot through the Micro Utopias.

In high end audio, tubes are everywhere. Apparently, for good reason.
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post #155 of 166 Old 05-30-2007, 01:29 PM
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so, what was the tube amp in question?

edit: and under an hour of auditioning isn't enough time to make these types of sweeping generalizations.
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post #156 of 166 Old 05-30-2007, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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VTL same brand as I had in the 80's that conked out after 6 months and had a constant, low level hum in my system.

Longer is better. However, in this case, I am confident about my observation.
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post #157 of 166 Old 05-31-2007, 04:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I found another major player-Sonus Faber!!!!!~!

A perusal of their website reveals the details in the Case history section and the philosophy section.

The list keeps growing. The movement marches on.

Sonus faber makes some of the world's best sounding speakers. I listened to a pair of their small monitors 5-6 years ago in Boston and really liked them.
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post #158 of 166 Old 05-31-2007, 04:31 AM
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They sound entirely different in Philadelphia though. Could be the cheesesteak.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #159 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Sonus Faber Stradivari-$40,000 per pair- Stereophile Class A full range- Joint loudspeaker of the year for 2005 along with the Wilson Maxx s2.

Sonus Faber Amati -$27,000 per pair- Stereophile Class A full range Joint loudspeaker of the year for 2006

Sonus Faber Cremona-$9000 per pair- Stereophile Class B Full Range.

Sonus Faber Cremona auditor-$4000- Stereophile Class b restricted LF

All musically tuned, all apparently great sounding speakers.

Its like a sunami.

Can a speaker have standard, heavily damped cabinets, standard drivers, and still fit in this category, based on the fact that the designer deliberately tweaked the crossover to be musically tuned? That is as opposed to tweaking it to make the fq reponse curve as ruler flat as possible.
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post #160 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 04:40 AM
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Really now. HTF do you know what the engineers did? You're reading marketing spiel. You better hope you're not reincarnated as a fish as you'll easily be caught.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #161 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 05:01 AM
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From the Cremona review...

Quote:


Listening to the cabinet walls with a stethoscope while I played the half-step toneburst track from Editor's Choice (Stereophile STPH016-2), I could hear some distinct resonant modes between 200Hz and 600Hz; when I played pink noise, I could also hear an acoustic resonance at around 900Hz emanating from the midrange unit's port. Most of the time with most kinds of music, any coloration due to these narrow-band modes was below my threshold of detection, but they did pop into view with specific instruments on specific recordings. As with my speaker reviews last month, while preparing this report I was working on a recording of Mozart's Clarinet Concerto that I am hoping will be released on SACD and LP in the near future. I could definitely hear some of the clarinet's notes "hooting" a little, with a slight resonant overhang.

I hear the mission bells a-calling
That slight criticism aside, the Sonus Faber Cremona is a superb performer.

I know those Scan-Speak drivers well, and I, too, like these speakers. Just think how wonderful they'd sound if the enclosure resonances were properly damped instead of "tuned."

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aka TRIAD DUDE

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post #162 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 06:36 AM
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Paul, it's difficult to tell if the reviewer's perceptions of this speaker with respect to the resonances was biased by having performed the aforementioned measurements given below.



Now, in a review of another speaker, the Revel Concerta F12 similar perceptions were not noted. Granted they are two different speakers and two different reviewers, but consider the measurements performed.



Notably it appears that the Sonus more strongly attenuates the resonances so that they go to 0 quicker. Now, I'll heartily grant you that it's good speaker design practice to mitigate resonances and to have them occur in benign areas. Out of curiousity, I tried to find accelerometer measurements on any of the Triad speakers. I was unsuccessful, but I did find a review of the Gold Minimonitor in Audioholics. They've got an Impedance vs. Frequency plot there http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...iew_fullscreen (non linkable image ) which if you examine carefully does show some slight unevenness and glitches which are due to resonances. Now, I've got respect for your line of speakers Paul but I rather suspect that accelerometer testing of your speakers might show similar graphs as those above. As you said, "Just think how wonderful they'd sound if the enclosure resonances were properly damped instead of "tuned."" Perhaps you can provide measurements that support a superior resonance control?

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post #163 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 04:55 PM
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Chu, the Triad speakers weigh about twice as much per cubic foot as the Sonus Faber Cremonas for one thing, and for another, would have a much smaller, less vibration prone cabinet with less than half the radiating surface. I don't think it's hard to give Paul the benefit of the doubt on this one. The F12 is 1/4 the price of the Cremona. Even the NHT Four is more densely constructed than the Cremona for 1/4 the price. Doesn't look as pretty but.......

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post #164 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 05:02 PM
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BTW, how about this tower:



However, the problem is that this has a lot to do, apparently, with the efficiency of the speaker - a more efficient speaker will look worse with the same voltage output than a less efficient one. Stereophile's measurements are interesting, but highly unscientific, especially cabinet resonance and spectral decay plots are terrible. The more accurate the speaker, the worse it will look in Stereophile's spectral decay plot. The smaller the panel to which the accelerometer is attached, the worse a speaker will look compared to its total radiation. They need to do a spectral decay that is normalized to a straight line and a cabinet resonance that shows total cabinet radiation including all panels (and speaker efficiency) and taking into account the size of the panels.

John
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post #165 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 05:35 PM
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Paul can just trot out some measurements. I was just busting his chops a little in a playful way seeing as how he made the comment.

I agree the measurements aren't complete by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the best I can come up with. IMO, there's more artsy cabinetry going on that drives the price up. I like Italian pastry but I'll pass on the speakers. BTW, hardly anything going on in that graph you put up.

Quote:


The more accurate the speaker, the worse it will look in Stereophile's spectral decay plot.

I see no reason why this should always be so.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #166 of 166 Old 06-01-2007, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I see no reason why this should always be so.

If there is a 3dB spike at any frequency, the whole resonance picture goes down 3dB. If there's a 5 or 10dB spike, resonances appear to be 5-10dB lower. So, a speaker that is nearly flat will show a lot more of its resonances to the world. That's why they need to show either the whole picture or normalize the FR/decay flat.

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