The *OFFICIAL* Vienna Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3081 Old 12-30-2007, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Titan2 View Post

Great thread. I'm looking for a pair of Haydns now.

Even though they are the smallest and least expensive vienna option, they should have good amplification. You should hear a noticeable improvement (to a certain point of course) as you move from a basic receiver up to say a dedicated power amplifier etc.
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post #92 of 3081 Old 12-31-2007, 04:20 PM
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I just hooked up the Strauss speakers to the McIntosh MC275, C2200 preamp and Micro Seiki BL-51 turntable. Sound is just incredible (much better than my Meridian system) and the MC275 has more than enough clean power for my needs. I would have to run two MC275's to get another 3 db, so I think I will leave things alone and enjoy what I have for awhile.


BTW: The Vienna Acoustics website is showing new models. For example, the Strauss is no longer listed, although it still shows up on Sumiko's website.
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post #93 of 3081 Old 12-31-2007, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cappy1 View Post

I just hooked up the Strauss speakers to the McIntosh MC275, C2200 preamp and Micro Seiki BL-51 turntable. Sound is just incredible (much better than my Meridian system) and the MC275 has more than enough clean power for my needs. I would have to run two MC275's to get another 3 db, so I think I will leave things alone and enjoy what I have for awhile.


BTW: The Vienna Acoustics website is showing new models. For example, the Strauss is no longer listed, although it still shows up on Sumiko's website.

nice to hear you're enjoying the new setup

I fell into it again but the vienna website must be the worst designed layout in the entire internet.
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post #94 of 3081 Old 01-06-2008, 01:14 PM
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Has anyone had any experience using the Waltz the L/R/Ls/Rs/Le/Re setup? Due to the room dynamics (big family room, lots of kids, lots of family use) I was looking at Haydn's originally for L/R and the Waltz for the four surrounds, and a Maestro for the center. But after looking more at the Waltz I have been starting to think of using the Waltz all around except for the center and sub. This way I can mount them on the walls out of the kids and cats ability to reach.

The use is general purpose, TV, Movies, and Music. I want something good but by no means does it have to be perfection. So my thoughts are that the Waltz all around (minus center and sub) would be a good tradeoff between quality and functionality.

Unfortunately non of the demo rooms are setup like this so I have only heard the waltz as surrounds. Any thoughts?

If your wondering, I haven't picked my reciever or amp yet although leaning towards Denon 4308 with an amp to power the L/C/R.

-TS
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post #95 of 3081 Old 01-06-2008, 08:52 PM
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From Sumiko's website "Waltz Grand is a new concept in speakers— a true all purpose, full-range wall mount speaker... they can be used to fulfill every position in a 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 system." Just make sure to set your crossover on your sub to blend the pair and pick up where the Waltz leaves off on the low end. Denon is a good choice. I demoed the Mozart with the Denon and it did well and sounded great. Possibly look into an amp because the speaker are 4 ohms.
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post #96 of 3081 Old 01-06-2008, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haderak View Post

Has anyone had any experience using the Waltz the L/R/Ls/Rs/Le/Re setup? Due to the room dynamics (big family room, lots of kids, lots of family use) I was looking at Haydn's originally for L/R and the Waltz for the four surrounds, and a Maestro for the center. But after looking more at the Waltz I have been starting to think of using the Waltz all around except for the center and sub. This way I can mount them on the walls out of the kids and cats ability to reach.

The use is general purpose, TV, Movies, and Music. I want something good but by no means does it have to be perfection. So my thoughts are that the Waltz all around (minus center and sub) would be a good tradeoff between quality and functionality.

Unfortunately non of the demo rooms are setup like this so I have only heard the waltz as surrounds. Any thoughts?

If your wondering, I haven't picked my reciever or amp yet although leaning towards Denon 4308 with an amp to power the L/C/R.

-TS

I had that setup at the store I worked at for about a year with 5 waltz and a rel R series subwoofer with at the time just a pioneer elite receiver. This was in a room with terrible acoustics (it was actually a circle!) but they handled it very well. I was surprised at how well they did to be honest, I didn't expect much, we installed them in the room because they looked nice and filled up a empty space. I would stick with your 4308 + amplifier plan for sure!
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post #97 of 3081 Old 01-08-2008, 04:33 PM
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It looks like Sumiko is showing the new Vienna speakers at CES2008. Here is a picture from the Stereophile blog: http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2008/010708ahhh/

$25,000 - looks like it won't be replacing the Mahler then!
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post #98 of 3081 Old 01-09-2008, 09:49 AM
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I decided on the Denon 4308CI receiver partnered with 6 Waltz Grands for L/R/Ls/Rs/Le/Re. I am going to use a Maestro Grand for the Center. I am undecided on the sub and additional amps.

One the sub side one suggestion I received was a Martin Logan Abyss. I am mostly looking for something to help round out the low and low-mid range on the speakers. Any suggestions on a good matching sub for these speakers?

Also I am pretty sure I want to amp the L/R speakers. I just finished reading the thread on the Crown XLS-402a and looked intrigued by it. But then I also read that for HT use you may run into "issues" if your center isn't at the same power. So would I be better off finding a single amp for L/C/R or would it be good to do two 2-channel amps, one for the L/R and one for C/LFE, then use the reciever in bi-amp mode for the surrounds? The Crown XLS-202 is rated at 200 watts and the suggested speaker wattage is 180. Is that a problem or is it as simple as adjusting the gain/settings on the amp to not overload the speaker?

I am really excited to get the speakers, the maple finish matches my trim through the house perfectly. I just have to figure out how to wire everything in the finished basement without completing tearing up my walls and ceiling.

-TS
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post #99 of 3081 Old 01-09-2008, 11:53 AM
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Haderak, I would look for a 6 or 7 (probably 7) channel power amp to power all the speakers evenly. I don't know what crown amps cost but I would imagine they are fairly inexpensive compared to traditional home theater amplifiers?

The abyss is a good sub IMO. Also, I would look at the rel line of subwoofers if you want something with a little more "music" to it. The T1 from rel is in the same price range as the Abyss.
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post #100 of 3081 Old 01-09-2008, 12:56 PM
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I've been using the Haydns in a large open-design family/living/dining room for two years with a Yamaha 1800 receiver and love them. I have a Definitive sub. The sound is clear at low levels, yet punchy and filling when we crank it up to watch movies.

In another room I have stupidly built-in a piece of furniture with a space for the front and center speakers below the 50" LCD TV. I say stupidly, because the space is only 10" deep. The idiot who advised me and sold me the electronics, most of which are now gone, used no-name in-wall speakers placed in this space behind a layer of fabric with the expected crappy results.

So I'm looking for something more clever which will fit. Has anyone heard the Waltz Grands in use as fronts and centers? Any other thoughts?
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post #101 of 3081 Old 01-09-2008, 01:09 PM
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Scotty- i have replied about this a few times in this thread but basically the Waltz IMO is very similar to the haydn's as a front speaker. They are not quite as full sounding but if you were to cross the bass region over to a subwoofer a bit higher, they would IMO give you essentially the same performance.
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post #102 of 3081 Old 01-13-2008, 07:02 PM
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Hoping my Mozart Grands and Maestro center channel arrive this week. They are the first stop on upgrading my HT. Couple of questions. What's the consensus on speaker wire - properly sized speaker wire or the more expensive cables? Are the cables worth it? I have a Denon AVR 3600 that I will be using until I upgrade. Am looking for a 5.1 solution for a room that measures 12 x 18. Ideas on receivers; amps/preamps that work well with VA are appreciated.
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post #103 of 3081 Old 01-13-2008, 08:33 PM
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Hi all,

I bought a pair of Mozart Grands 5 weeks ago and absolutely loved it. I loved them so much I actually returned them and got a pair of Beethoven Concert Grands instead. I love them even more! One thing I've noticed though, is that while BCGs have deeper, more damped bass, Morzart Grands actually had more bass volume. Some may say Mozart Grands are a bit "boomy," but Mozart having more bass volume that BCG was a bit of surprise to me.

Anyways, here's the list of my impressions of Beethoven Concert Grands:

I hear a lot more instruments in large scale symphonies!
Higher resolution
Bass is deeper, has more authority
Cello sounds much more realistic
Even though MG and BCG seem to share the same ScanSpeak tweater, BCG's treble sounds much clearer

The speakers have not been fully aged or broken in yet, but I like what I'm hearing. Is anyone here using a pair of BCG with a subwoofer? Any recommendations?
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post #104 of 3081 Old 01-13-2008, 09:23 PM
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Golfshore- I'd recommend getting a 4ohm stable power amplifier as almost no typical receiver is rated at 4ohm anymore. One brand that I know works well with vienna is b&k or primare products (both make AVR's with 4ohm stable amplifiers). The typical choices from yamaha, onkyo, denon, sony etc do work and power them ok but in the end a power amplifier is a better choice

T-3g- I'd look into the rel line, at work we use the b1 from rel with the Baby grands currently and works very well. The b1 is pretty large though, for some rooms you could probably use a b3 instead (at $1000 less). I also like the t1 subwoofer as a reasonable option ($1000 retail).

Also, play with the placement of the concert grands some more, i've never heard the bass be louder with mozarts then properly setup concert grands
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post #105 of 3081 Old 01-14-2008, 12:03 AM
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Does anyone have any suggestions on an amp for the Mozart Grands. I have been considering the Emotiva amps because of their price and great reviews. I see that the rick suggests b&k, which also gets great reviews. I have seen some reasonable prices on used B&K amps online. I know people whom are using both amps and think very highly of both. On paper the Emotiva looks better than the B&K as far as THD, but does not have the range. Any thoughts on which is a better amp for these particular speakers or overall and reasoning behind it?
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post #106 of 3081 Old 01-14-2008, 06:47 AM
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I own a Grand Maestro is a impedance of 6 Ohms and I plan to use them in a home theater environment. Is it a problem if I mix them with a newer VA 4 Ohm speaker for the front or rear speakers?
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post #107 of 3081 Old 01-14-2008, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the rick View Post

T-3g- I'd look into the rel line, at work we use the b1 from rel with the Baby grands currently and works very well. The b1 is pretty large though, for some rooms you could probably use a b3 instead (at $1000 less). I also like the t1 subwoofer as a reasonable option ($1000 retail).

Also, play with the placement of the concert grands some more, i've never heard the bass be louder with mozarts then properly setup concert grands

Thanks for the response. I was looking at REL R-series - do you have any comment or experience with their R-series?

Also, I've placed the BCGs exactly where Mozarts used sit. Not sure why I'm not hearing the bass, but do BCGs require a lot of aging to fully reproduce the bass? I have about 15 hours on them now. Unfortunately, my room isn't flexible so they can't move from where they are now (1.5 feet apart from the side wall, 2 feet from the back wall, and 7 feet apart from each other).
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post #108 of 3081 Old 01-14-2008, 06:57 PM
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I just purchased an onkyo 805. it is supposed to be stable at 4 ohms. would any of the vienna series speakers match up well with this AVR - without an added amp (for now)? Thanks
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post #109 of 3081 Old 01-14-2008, 07:21 PM
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therick, thanks for the input. I know I need to replace my receiver. Will look into B&k. Any thoughts on Rotel?

t-3g. Have heard the REL r305 matched up with a number of different speakers - Sonus Faber GPs, B&W 703s and the dealer I am buying my mozart grands from likes the REL 305. It seems to perform well with a variety of speakers. My dealer says it really provides body to the mozart grands.
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post #110 of 3081 Old 01-14-2008, 08:57 PM
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I do like the rel R series also, they look a ton better then the B series IMO, they just don't play as low but its not a huge difference but I haven't spent much time doing a direct comparison

hotel96- I didn't think vienna made a 6ohm speaker, are you sure its 6ohms?

golfshore- no idea on rotel, they look like good pieces but I have no direct experience. I have of course heard good things over the years however! I started a thread in the amp section looking for a line of reasonable 5ch power amps that weren't just ID brands and the rotel was the only suggestion (I think they said it was about $1000 for the standard 5ch 4ohm stable amplifier)

GSA53- This isn't something I can answer as I don't sell the onkyo line but looking at the spec sheet the only 4ohm rating is with 1ch driven (not much good for home theater use). All of the multi channel driven ratings are 6ohms or more so i'd be a little cautious in running a 4ohm speaker (that dips below 4ohms) on that receiver but once again I'm not directly familiar with the unit and what it actually does vs. what the spec sheet indicates
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post #111 of 3081 Old 01-15-2008, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by the rick View Post

hotel96- I didn't think vienna made a 6ohm speaker, are you sure its 6ohms?

Yes, I purchased it about 7 years ago at Tweeter. It is definitely 6ohms. Any idea how it would mix with the newer 4ohm models?
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post #112 of 3081 Old 01-15-2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-3G View Post


Also, I've placed the BCGs exactly where Mozarts used sit. Not sure why I'm not hearing the bass, but do BCGs require a lot of aging to fully reproduce the bass? I have about 15 hours on them now. Unfortunately, my room isn't flexible so they can't move from where they are now (1.5 feet apart from the side wall, 2 feet from the back wall, and 7 feet apart from each other).

Having participated in Sumiko's Masters Training (required for all Vienna/Sonus Faber dealers) I can tell you that the reason you have "no Bass" with your BCGs is because of their location. They are probably sitting right in the "dead zone" where their bass capabilites are greatly diminished. Beethovens are larger than Mozarts therefore need more space to reach their potential, particularly in the low frequencies. Vienna does suggest as much as 100 hours of break-in time for their speakers but that is usually of subtle change. The solution would be to change their location but you said that is not possible. I would recommend acoustical treatment behind the speakers and possibly request your Vienna dealer to make a house-call for setup solutions.
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post #113 of 3081 Old 01-15-2008, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotel96 View Post

Yes, I purchased it about 7 years ago at Tweeter. It is definitely 6ohms. Any idea how it would mix with the newer 4ohm models?

Honestly I have no idea then, i've sold vienna acoustics for the last 6 years but I don't remember a 6ohm model. Either way, I doubt it would be a perfect match as all speaker designs change over the years but it would be better then trying to mix in another brand! Not sure how well that would work on the amplifier with a 4ohm front load, 6ohm center, who knows ohm rear load

Jedi- I totally agree on setup issues being the problem or if he doesn't have a good amplifier (I didn't look back to see what he was using) that might be the shortfall also. The sumiko products dealer should set them up for you
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post #114 of 3081 Old 01-15-2008, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfshore View Post

t-3g. Have heard the REL r305 matched up with a number of different speakers - Sonus Faber GPs, B&W 703s and the dealer I am buying my mozart grands from likes the REL 305. It seems to perform well with a variety of speakers. My dealer says it really provides body to the mozart grands.

golfshore,

I've heard a pair of Mozart Grands paired up with a REL T1 and they sounded absolutely great. The sales person did not recommend the T line because they are made outside of England, though. Not that everyone cares where they are being assembled, but he did mention reliability problems with the T line. I will look into the R line once I recover from my financial bruise.
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post #115 of 3081 Old 01-15-2008, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by T-3G View Post

golfshore,

I've heard a pair of Mozart Grands paired up with a REL T1 and they sounded absolutely great. The sales person did not recommend the T line because they are made outside of England, though. Not that everyone cares where they are being assembled, but he did mention reliability problems with the T line. I will look into the R line once I recover from my financial bruise.

I would agree that the R series is probably of much better construction quality. REL resisted making a less expensive series for a long time but finally gave in I guess (although the T series still sounds very good)
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post #116 of 3081 Old 01-15-2008, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jedimindcontrol View Post

Having participated in Sumiko's Masters Training (required for all Vienna/Sonus Faber dealers) I can tell you that the reason you have "no Bass" with your BCGs is because of their location. They are probably sitting right in the "dead zone" where their bass capabilites are greatly diminished. Beethovens are larger than Mozarts therefore need more space to reach their potential, particularly in the low frequencies. Vienna does suggest as much as 100 hours of break-in time for their speakers but that is usually of subtle change. The solution would be to change their location but you said that is not possible. I would recommend acoustical treatment behind the speakers and possibly request your Vienna dealer to make a house-call for setup solutions.

jedimindcontrol,

Oh, my. I moved the BCGs about 6 inches forward, and it did make a big difference in the volume of bass! Very interesting; I guess BCGs require more room behind than MGs to "breathe" more freely. The reason why I said I can't move them is not because of the space limitation, it's the wife....

Where can I learn more about the optimal placements of speakers? Prior to the BCGs I had been using Allison Acoustics "Allison Three" speakers that I purchased back in the 80's. These speakers are designed to be placed against the corners (triangular in shape) so I never had to think about the placement.
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post #117 of 3081 Old 01-15-2008, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-3G View Post

jedimindcontrol,

Oh, my. I moved the BCGs about 6 inches forward, and it did make a big difference in the volume of bass! Very interesting; I guess BCGs require more room behind than MGs to "breathe" more freely. The reason why I said I can't move them is not because of the space limitation, it's the wife....

Where can I learn more about the optimal placements of speakers? Prior to the BCGs I had been using Allison Acoustics "Allison Three" speakers that I purchased back in the 80's. These speakers are designed to be placed against the corners (triangular in shape) so I never had to think about the placement.


I will try to help....sumiko masters setup is basically about moving one speaker at a time from the wall until it hits the "sweet" spot for bass response. This does take some skill and practice to be good at it despite how simple it sounds. The sumiko training class is hours and hours of moving the speaker and being shown how to correctly perform the proper setup. Its nothing revolutionary (you can do the same thing with weeks of trial and error, years for some....) but its a system that produces results you can count on and takes minimal sound to get great sound out of just about any space with vienna speakers (also sonus faber of course).


My suggestion: figure out where they work the best in your room if your dealer won't do it (did you buy from a dealer?) for you. Then move them to that spot at the rate of about a half inch every couple of days so the wife won't notice Make sure to not puncture the carpet much with the spikes as you will leave a evidence trail
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post #118 of 3081 Old 01-16-2008, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-3G View Post

jedimindcontrol,

Oh, my. I moved the BCGs about 6 inches forward, and it did make a big difference in the volume of bass! Very interesting; I guess BCGs require more room behind than MGs to "breathe" more freely. The reason why I said I can't move them is not because of the space limitation, it's the wife....

Where can I learn more about the optimal placements of speakers? Prior to the BCGs I had been using Allison Acoustics "Allison Three" speakers that I purchased back in the 80's. These speakers are designed to be placed against the corners (triangular in shape) so I never had to think about the placement.


good to hear it worked for you. yes, the BCG do need alot more room to breathe more freely. and I assumed the space limitation was due to wife acceptance!

The Rick hit the basics of what Sumiko trains for but it does go way beyond that. Its quite a simple process once you grasp it but unfortunately it is impossible to explain it here and make it completely understandable. Also, with respect to the fantastic people at sumiko I will not go any further and let out any "insider secrets"

Since you have already experienced that moving the speakers can have a dramatic effect on sound...I would suggest having 2 setup locations. one that the wife is cool with...and the other where your bass comes back to life for critical listening. You could use tape, etc possibly to mark the location so its easy to move the speakers to that spot. kind of a pain in the ass but its a hell of alot easier then getting a new wife...
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post #119 of 3081 Old 01-16-2008, 11:45 AM
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jedi- yes, i agree, i have been to both masters and stars over the years. What other lines do you sell now?
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post #120 of 3081 Old 01-16-2008, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jlafrenz View Post

Does anyone have any suggestions on an amp for the Mozart Grands. I have been considering the Emotiva amps because of their price and great reviews. I see that the rick suggests b&k, which also gets great reviews. I have seen some reasonable prices on used B&K amps online. I know people whom are using both amps and think very highly of both. On paper the Emotiva looks better than the B&K as far as THD, but does not have the range. Any thoughts on which is a better amp for these particular speakers or overall and reasoning behind it?

I've been through a large number of amplifies with my Mozarts (old model, not the Grand), both tube and solid state.

Tubes are tough. The wacky impedance curves on the Mozarts play havoc with many tube amps and forget about trying to power them with a SET--it's push-pull or the highway. Honestly, an amp I still regret not pairing them with was the Music Reference RM200. It provided perhaps the most beautiful sound from my Mozarts and delivered balanced frequency response and plenty of power, including nice, deep, taut bass.

In solid state, it really comes down current delivery and just amp quality. The Bryston 3BST sounded like Bryston with the Mozarts--a little Mosfet fog, but clean, powerful, and musical. For several years I used a B&K AV5000 on them in an HT setup. Again, no problems and they delivered the B&K house sound. I had a Bel Canto EVO200.2 (no longer made, new ones are different tech and haven't tried them) that combined the best of tubes and SS but ultimately left me a bit flat. When I got my current Yamaha surround receiver (RXV1600) it had no problem driving them and sounded decent. However, it sounded like a receiver. So I went a different route and tried several integrated amps to use for my 2 channel audio that included home theater bypass features (where HT sources use the amps in the integrated for L/R via a unity gain input that allows the receiver to control volume and maintain channel balance and all your 2ch sources go direct to the integrated and their volume is controlled by it). I tried the NAD M3, Krell 400x, Bel Canto Evo2i, and Musical Fidelity A5. All in the 2500-3000 range. The Bel Canto sounded like and perhaps a bit better than my old Evo200.2. The NAD sounded like NAD; not for me. The Krell was very dynamic and I think complement the VA's well. In the end I got the Musical Fidelity as it didn't fight the warmth and timbre of the VAs (I love the Mozarts on stringed music) and had, hands down, the best bass. It then became obvious to me that VAs don't just want power, they really need power. 100 watt SS and tube amps were fine to a point, but what the Mozarts want is juice--250 in the case of the A5. So, I'd say, go for the watts in a quality amp. Parasound, B&K, Musical Fidelity, Classe, and Bryston are all good and offer amps in the 200 watt range that won't break the bank. I bet a Krell FPB amp would sound awesome, but that's probably way overkill for a $2500 speaker.

I've heard that VA voices their speakers in Austria with Audio Research tube monoblocks (the big ones).
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