Aerial Acoustics Owners Thread - Page 61 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1801 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
^^ Obviously this is getting rather ugly; and I will continue to defend Craig...not blindly, but where I feel it is just. In that vein, I will say the following:

1) I think he knows, he's coming off...looking rather bad, in the eyes of some. I don't think he cares...or that is how much he cares; because he's trying to expose something, he thinks is important. Many of you are like "we knew/knew the business was slimy"...so there's no great revelation here. And that's fine for you; but I think there are those who don't...and that's who Craig is trying to reach (admittedly, as well as vent his own frustrations).

2) I see a lot of people, saying MK is this...and MK is that. I don't know the man...but I know what I've read, from other customers (not just Craig). That the AA Facebook page, clearly states "made in the USA"; and that when asked directly, MK has either stated the cabinets were made in the USA...or simply misdirected and/or did not answer the question.

That doesn't sound like an "honest mistake" to me. People are losing sight of the real point: it's not is Chinese manufacturing inferior, superior, or what have you; and it's not are the speakers well-made, and sound-good. It's...is your vendor, being honest with you. If he really didn't think it mattered, why not say "made in China"...or "assembled in the USA"? And...why hasn't he responded??
Okay...but I'm still awaiting word on why Craig didn't have a problem selling AA products which were marked "Made in the USA" on the previous rendition of speakers...with cabs made in Denmark, tweeter in Germany, etc. I think it does indeed matter to Craig that the cabs were made in China and this is not a USA labeling issue. Perhaps Craig just had a come to Jesus moment and is now himself coming clean. I guess we won't know unless he responds.

I don't know MK and I don't know Craig. But this issue is not one for public display unless Craig has himself contacted the FTC and gotten their interpretation of the law (and not his or anyone else'sopinion of it). So, like it or not, it does seem to come off as a business relationship turned sour.

You and Craig are asserting that AA has broken the law, thereby demeaning the company. If it's true, the FTC should come down hard on AA. If it's not true, and AA is operating withing the FTC guidelines, then it wouldn't be inappropriate for MK to bring suit against both of you for libel.

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post #1802 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 08:32 AM
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Okay...but I'm still awaiting word on why Craig didn't have a problem selling AA products which were marked "Made in the USA" on the previous rendition of speakers...with cabs made in Denmark, tweeter in Germany, etc. I think it does indeed matter to Craig that the cabs were made in China and this is not a USA labeling issue. Perhaps Craig just had a come to Jesus moment and is now himself coming clean. I guess we won't know unless he responds.

I don't know MK and I don't know Craig. But this issue is not one for public display unless Craig has himself contacted the FTC and gotten their interpretation of the law (and not his or anyone else'sopinion of it). So, like it or not, it does seem to come off as a business relationship turned sour.

You and Craig are asserting that AA has broken the law, thereby demeaning the company. If it's true, the FTC should come down hard on AA. If it's not true, and AA is operating withing the FTC guidelines, then it wouldn't be inappropriate for MK to bring suit against both of you for libel.
Well first of all...I haven't done jack, in the way of libel. I'm sure if I'd said anything that even came close, the mods would have had something to say about it first. All I've done, is clarify Craig's remarks...defend him, where I see fit; express my own views on the subject, and convey what I've read elsewhere on the subject. In fact...if you look at my posts, you'll see I've NEVER typed the letters FTC; because I'm not a dealer, and don't really know what their rules are. AFAIC, this debate is more held to the court of public opinion.

Second of all...I can understand, why Craig might (and that's not to say he did know the cabinets were made in Denmark; just if he did) have more of a problem with China, versus Denmark. For example...and this argument could be made with any number of things; but I'll go wine, for instance. Let's say the bottle was label "made in Italy". But you did some investigation, and found out...some of the grapes came from outsourced vineyards in France. OK...maybe some mistruth; but I'll take some French grapes in my wine most days. Now...let's say those outsourced grapes, were from Romania? Is that a little different??

For me it is; and again...I am on record, as not having a problem with Chinese products. But some do...and I am aware of that; whereas to my knowledge, NO ONE...has a problem with woodworking from Denmark. Just because I don't care about speakers made in China...and maybe you don't care about speakers made in China; doesn't mean no one cares. In fact, I think Craig has made it clear...from very early on; that he has had complaints. Complaints that may or may not have created financial impact for him...and then in turn, when he went to the manufacture (which any dealer would do); he felt the issue was mishandled.

I don't see what's so hard to understand; but I guess it just has to do with what POV you share.

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post #1803 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
Well first of all...I haven't done jack, in the way of libel. I'm sure if I'd said anything that even came close, the mods would have had something to say about it first. All I've done, is clarify Craig's remarks...defend him, where I see fit; express my own views on the subject, and convey what I've read elsewhere on the subject. In fact...if you look at my posts, you'll see I've NEVER typed the letters FTC; because I'm not a dealer, and don't really know what their rules are. AFAIC, this debate is more held to the court of public opinion.

Second of all...I can understand, why Craig might (and that's not to say he did know the cabinets were made in Denmark; just if he did) have more of a problem with China, versus Denmark. For example...and this argument could be made with any number of things; but I'll go wine, for instance. Let's say the bottle was label "made in Italy". But you did some investigation, and found out...some of the grapes came from outsourced vineyards in France. OK...maybe some mistruth; but I'll take some French grapes in my wine most days. Now...let's say those outsourced grapes, were from Romania? Is that a little different??

For me it is; and again...I am on record, as not having a problem with Chinese products. But some do...and I am aware of that; whereas to my knowledge, NO ONE...has a problem with woodworking from Denmark. Just because I don't care about speakers made in China...and maybe you don't care about speakers made in China; doesn't mean no one cares. In fact, I think Craig has made it clear...from very early on; that he has had complaints. Complaints that may or may not have created financial impact for him...and then in turn, when he went to the manufacture (which any dealer would do); he felt the issue was mishandled.

I don't see what's so hard to understand; but I guess it just has to do with what POV you share.
The only point of view I have is that this issue should not be discussed on this forum UNLESS Craig has confirmation from the FTC that AA broke the law. The rest is opinionated chaff.
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post #1804 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
That the AA Facebook page, clearly states "made in the USA"; and that when asked directly, MK has either stated the cabinets were made in the USA...or simply misdirected and/or did not answer the question.
That doesn't sound like an "honest mistake" to me.
And this doesn't sound like like a (potentially) libelous statement to you?

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post #1805 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 08:54 AM
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Exclamation

Well VGI sold 7T's from the start and he was telling customers haw great the speakers are. The fact the cabinets were made in China was no secret. When the 7T's came out MK had a demo show at Audio Video Therapy in NH. He gave a detailed description of the speaker. Part by part where it came from and how it was built. This included mentioning the cabinet was built in China. I asked him why and he stated if it was done in Denmark it would add $3000 to the cost and he wanted to keep the price at a certain price range. Something is going on between these 2 people and it's not labeling. Dig deeper and you'll find the truth.
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post #1806 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
Second of all...I can understand, why Craig might (and that's not to say he did know the cabinets were made in Denmark; just if he did) have more of a problem with China, versus Denmark. For example...and this argument could be made with any number of things; but I'll go wine, for instance. Let's say the bottle was label "made in Italy". But you did some investigation, and found out...some of the grapes came from outsourced vineyards in France. OK...maybe some mistruth; but I'll take some French grapes in my wine most days. Now...let's say those outsourced grapes, were from Romania? Is that a little different??
You have commented in the other thread, so I have to assume you read it. He clearly indicates he was BFF with Mike Kelley and waxed poetic about the Danish wood working. There is no "might" in this discussion. He then gives examples of Chinese wood working and the toxic dangerous glues and what not.

It is clear in the other thread he has an issue with Chinese wood versus Danish wood. If the label says "Made In USA" but the wood is from Denmark, that is ok but not if the wood came from China? The issue should have been that the label is fraudulent. But from your analogy and CGI's rant, the real issue is the country the wood (or wine) came from more than the false label.

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post #1807 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 09:52 AM
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I've talked to MK several times and he never told me Aerial cabinets were made in the U.S. He did say, "all Aerial Speakers were assembled in the U.S. and the cabinets were sourced from China." If Craig had a problem with Aerial he sure didn't mention it to me when he went on and on about how great the 7Ts were.
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post #1808 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 10:45 AM
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And this doesn't sound like like a (potentially) libelous statement to you?
I'm no lawyer; but at the very least, don't truncate my statement:

I don't know the man...but I know what I've read, from other customers (not just Craig). That the AA Facebook page, clearly states "made in the USA"; and that when asked directly, MK has either stated the cabinets were made in the USA...or simply misdirected and/or did not answer the question.

That doesn't sound like an "honest mistake" to me.

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post #1809 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
I'm no lawyer; but at the very least, don't truncate my statement:

I don't know the man...but I know what I've read, from other customers (not just Craig). That the AA Facebook page, clearly states "made in the USA"; and that when asked directly, MK has either stated the cabinets were made in the USA...or simply misdirected and/or did not answer the question.

That doesn't sound like an "honest mistake" to me.
I currently have 7Ts that I purchased from Craig. I talked to MK yesterday and HE HAD NO PROBLEM TELLING ME WHERE THE CABINETS WERE MADE, IN CHINA! So, at least in my case your statement isn't true. Before this controversy began, I talked to him over a year ago and he told me the cabinets were made in China, but the speakers were assembled in the U.S. I personally don't care were they are made, I care about the quality of construction and the sound. As far as I can see and hear both are great to me! Look, I'm retired Air Force and a teacher, and would love for everything to be 100% manufactured in the U.S, but that's not reality.
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post #1810 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 01:08 PM
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Exclamation

Aerial dropped Theater Max 6 months ago. There's has to be a specific reason as to why. Bottom line it wasn't about labels or cabinets made in China. That's just a smoke screen. Soon we'll get the whole picture.

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post #1811 of 1825 Old 07-30-2015, 05:00 PM
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A quick google search for aerial acoustics took me to the 2012 Stereophile review of the 7T and you can read it very clear the label under the terminals did say MADE IN USA

Another quick google search for FTC, made in usa policy and I find this

What factors does the Commission consider to determine whether a product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.?
The product’s final assembly or processing must take place in the U.S. The Commission then considers other factors, including how much of the product’s total manufacturing costs can be assigned to U.S. parts and processing, and how far removed any foreign content is from the finished product. In some instances, only a small portion of the total manufacturing costs are attributable to foreign processing, but that processing represents a significant amount of the product’s overall processing. The same could be true for some foreign parts. In these cases, the foreign content (processing or parts) is more than negligible, and, as a result, unqualified claims are inappropriate.

Example: A company produces propane barbecue grills at a plant in Nevada. The product’s major components include the gas valve, burner and aluminum housing, each of which is made in the U.S. The grill’s knobs and tubing are imported from Mexico. An unqualified Made in USA claim is not likely to be deceptive because the knobs and tubing make up a negligible portion of the product’s total manufacturing costs and are insignificant parts of the final product.

Example: A table lamp is assembled in the U.S. from American-made brass, an American-made Tiffany-style lampshade, and an imported base. The base accounts for a small percent of the total cost of making the lamp. An unqualified Made in USA claim is deceptive for two reasons: The base is not far enough removed in the manufacturing process from the finished product to be of little consequence and it is a significant part of the final product.

I posted on another thread that my opinion is that I could care less about where the cabinets came from as long as the quality is there
That been said, I would like to see AA change their label from made in usa to something like designed, engineered and assembled in USA so they won't have this cloud hanging over their head and can focus on making quality speakers
IMO, change the label should not affect how customer perceive AA speakers because from all I read, their speakers and cabinets are still 1st rated regardless where the cabinets came from

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post #1812 of 1825 Old 07-31-2015, 10:29 PM
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You guys might want to read this post: Would you buy a 10K Chinese Made Speaker labelled Made in USA ??

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post #1813 of 1825 Old 08-01-2015, 05:57 AM
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Aerial Acoustics

I am a new poster to the AVS Forum. I began following this tread on 28 July.

I do completely agree with the comments about substantial content. We, like many other speaker companies and other manufacturers in general, have taken the Made in USA label too lightly. I apologize for this oversight. We want to be accurate. We will change our terminal plates to read "Designed, Engineered and Assembled in the USA."

First I would like to say that every speaker Aerial has ever sold has been assembled and tested right here in Massachusetts by us. We have never sold any speaker system assembled or made in China.

We have always pursued the best quality, performance and appearance, and that search has led us overseas. In the case of high-end drivers, it has been primarily to Europe. In the case of cabinets, we started off using wood cabinets from American suppliers and casting our own Novalith stone heads here in house.

Our on-going quest for higher quality led us first to Denmark and then, like many other high-end manufacturers, to China. This was not just for cost but, more importantly, for higher construction quality, greater capability with complex shapes and better finishes. In addition our Danish cabinet supplier went out of business.

There are numerous suppliers in China, a select few of which are world-class. They offer excellent quality, outstanding production capabilities including the latest specialized German and Italian furniture machinery, good environmental conditions including the expensive formaldehyde-free MDF and low toxin glues used in our cabinets, and fair labor practices. In addition we continue to source our veneers in Germany.

We truly wish we could use more US suppliers. It would certainly be easier. In some other industries, US manufacturers are certainly the best in the world. Unfortunately that does not seem to be true for high-end drivers and speaker cabinets.

I believe our current products to be truly excellent performers, extremely well-made and very high value. They are the best we have ever made.

We will shortly add a statement to our website about our policies, design, engineering and history. I hope you will find this interesting.

Thank you.

Michael Kelly
President
Aerial Acoustics
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post #1814 of 1825 Old 08-01-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Kelly View Post
I am a new poster to the AVS Forum. I began following this tread on 28 July.

I do completely agree with the comments about substantial content. We, like many other speaker companies and other manufacturers in general, have taken the Made in USA label too lightly. I apologize for this oversight. We want to be accurate. We will change our terminal plates to read "Designed, Engineered and Assembled in the USA."

Aerial Acoustics
It's nice to see Mr. Kelly join the discussion. I think the first paragraph of his response says it all. He makes very good speakers and it's nice they will now be labeled a bit more accurately. Kudos to him for recognizing this needed changed.

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post #1815 of 1825 Old 08-01-2015, 11:55 AM
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I have been into audio equipment for forty years. I'm not saying that makes me an expert, just for reference. I've had owned several pairs of speakers over that span and have been exposed to dozens more. I do not feel the need to defend MK but I am going to say that my 7T's sound amazing and the build quality is second to none. I do not know MK or VGI so not questioning anyone's credibility or motives. Is the part about Chinese cabinets nit picking or a genuine concern? I guess that's up to the consumer. I have dealt with MK a few times and found him to be knowledgeable, passionate about his products and forthcoming.

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post #1816 of 1825 Old 08-01-2015, 12:44 PM
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I have been into audio equipment for forty years. I'm not saying that makes me an expert, just for reference. I've had owned several pairs of speakers over that span and have been exposed to dozens more. I do not feel the need to defend MK but I am going to say that my 7T's sound amazing and the build quality is second to none. I do not know MK or VGI so not questioning anyone's credibility or motives. Is the part about Chinese cabinets nit picking or a genuine concern? I guess that's up to the consumer. I have dealt with MK a few times and found him to be knowledgeable, passionate about his products and forthcoming.
From my conversation with MK regarding the cabinet, he said it is a better cabinet, once he went to China. It is heavier braced and more inert.

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MK made a very classy response. Thank god he doesn't have my Greek temper. VGI has made more threats. I wish he would let it go. By the way in AA news the cabinets for the new 5T's have arrived and he has finished redoing the crossover so they should be out within a month. Oh, for the uninformed, the cabinets were made in China.
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post #1818 of 1825 Old 08-01-2015, 10:40 PM
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Ya for 5T's. What about those center channels??
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Aerial dropped Theater Max 6 months ago. There's has to be a specific reason as to why. Bottom line it wasn't about labels or cabinets made in China. That's just a smoke screen. Soon we'll get the whole picture.
Class A

Are you an AV dealer yourself ? Do you own aerials ?

You must know Michael well for you to make the statements your making.
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MK made a very classy response. Thank god he doesn't have my Greek temper. VGI has made more threats. I wish he would let it go. By the way in AA news the cabinets for the new 5T's have arrived and he has finished redoing the crossover so they should be out within a month. Oh, for the uninformed, the cabinets were made in China.
Oh that's great so more Chinese super high priced speakers. I'm sure people are lining up to buy them. I'm laughing still how Mk said that they would have cost 3000 more if they didn't make them in China.. At 10k for a decent speaker would a guy really complain about 13k if it was awesome and had a great back story ? I don't think so. You guys ever see the cost break downs of what it costs to build for instance an iPhone 6 ?

Why don't you guys do a cost breakdown of an aerial 7t and tell me if 10k makes sense and truly if it needed to be 13k made here..

Craig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Kelly View Post
I am a new poster to the AVS Forum. I began following this tread on 28 July.

I do completely agree with the comments about substantial content. We, like many other speaker companies and other manufacturers in general, have taken the Made in USA label too lightly. I apologize for this oversight. We want to be accurate. We will change our terminal plates to read "Designed, Engineered and Assembled in the USA."

First I would like to say that every speaker Aerial has ever sold has been assembled and tested right here in Massachusetts by us. We have never sold any speaker system assembled or made in China.

We have always pursued the best quality, performance and appearance, and that search has led us overseas. In the case of high-end drivers, it has been primarily to Europe. In the case of cabinets, we started off using wood cabinets from American suppliers and casting our own Novalith stone heads here in house.

Our on-going quest for higher quality led us first to Denmark and then, like many other high-end manufacturers, to China. This was not just for cost but, more importantly, for higher construction quality, greater capability with complex shapes and better finishes. In addition our Danish cabinet supplier went out of business.

There are numerous suppliers in China, a select few of which are world-class. They offer excellent quality, outstanding production capabilities including the latest specialized German and Italian furniture machinery, good environmental conditions including the expensive formaldehyde-free MDF and low toxin glues used in our cabinets, and fair labor practices. In addition we continue to source our veneers in Germany.

We truly wish we could use more US suppliers. It would certainly be easier. In some other industries, US manufacturers are certainly the best in the world. Unfortunately that does not seem to be true for high-end drivers and speaker cabinets.

I believe our current products to be truly excellent performers, extremely well-made and very high value. They are the best we have ever made.

We will shortly add a statement to our website about our policies, design, engineering and history. I hope you will find this interesting.

Thank you.

Michael Kelly
President
Aerial Acoustics
First of all, Welcome to this nuthouse. What took you so long? I immediately became an Aerial fan when one of you guys pulled us into your room at 1996 CES with the Aerial 10T Jurassic Park DTS LD demo. The dynamics sold me from the start. I listen to my 7B's everyday.

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post #1822 of 1825 Old Yesterday, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by VGI View Post
Oh that's great so more Chinese super high priced speakers. I'm sure people are lining up to buy them. I'm laughing still how Mk said that they would have cost 3000 more if they didn't make them in China.. At 10k for a decent speaker would a guy really complain about 13k if it was awesome and had a great back story ? I don't think so. You guys ever see the cost break downs of what it costs to build for instance an iPhone 6 ?

Why don't you guys do a cost breakdown of an aerial 7t and tell me if 10k makes sense and truly if it needed to be 13k made here..


Craig

Boy oh boy.........................you're cutting off your nose despite yourself!

Can we all assume your statement is true for most or all high end audio video? Yup...................

Why can't you just let dead dogs lie.................................you've made your point...........move on!
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post #1823 of 1825 Old Yesterday, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post
Oh that's great so more Chinese super high priced speakers. I'm sure people are lining up to buy them. I'm laughing still how Mk said that they would have cost 3000 more if they didn't make them in China.. At 10k for a decent speaker would a guy really complain about 13k if it was awesome and had a great back story ? I don't think so. You guys ever see the cost break downs of what it costs to build for instance an iPhone 6 ?

Why don't you guys do a cost breakdown of an aerial 7t and tell me if 10k makes sense and truly if it needed to be 13k made here..

Craig
I dunno about everyone else, but my 7T's were a significant investment for me, and quite frankly hit the tip of my spending potential. I'm NOT the guy who drives into the local high end audio store with a $80k "daily driver" car or "dog car" (I didn't make that up... that was true for two people I met, and those are their words in quotes, not mine).

A 30% increase in cost that resulted in no audible quality improvement would have put the 7T's out of my budget and off my radar. I, for one, appreciate Aerial Acoustics for trying to keep their speakers within the price limits that they did. And since I was well aware of where the cabinets were made before I purchased them, I don't feel there was any deception.

You're entitled to your opinion Craig, but please don't try to incite us to rally with you.
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post #1824 of 1825 Old Today, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grit View Post
I dunno about everyone else, but my 7T's were a significant investment for me, and quite frankly hit the tip of my spending potential. I'm NOT the guy who drives into the local high end audio store with a $80k "daily driver" car or "dog car" (I didn't make that up... that was true for two people I met, and those are their words in quotes, not mine).

A 30% increase in cost that resulted in no audible quality improvement would have put the 7T's out of my budget and off my radar. I, for one, appreciate Aerial Acoustics for trying to keep their speakers within the price limits that they did. And since I was well aware of where the cabinets were made before I purchased them, I don't feel there was any deception.

You're entitled to your opinion Craig, but please don't try to incite us to rally with you.
This has always been a civil thread. It's about people that enjoy the Aerial speaker line. As Aerial owners we know the product and many of us have talked w/Michael so let's stop the mud slinging and character assassination and get on w/the thread. I come here for fun not politics.
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post #1825 of 1825 Old Today, 05:04 AM
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please limit posts going forward to technical issues

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