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post #511 of 530 Old 03-23-2015, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dado73 View Post
Hi Max,

what do you mean when you say "if you just don't happen to like this particular speaker's frequency response" ?
If the measured speaker's response will result correct (flat) you may think that I have some hearing problems... But I have heard other prestigious speakers that sound great to me (for example B&W 802D). I think that nonlinear effects in the response to transients will make a great difference between different speakers, a difference that could be not detected with a simple frequency response test.

Anyway I will try to arrange for a serious frequency response test...

Davide
Davide,

I meant that different speaker manufacturers design their speakers with different Frequency Response patterns.

Many speakers, when placed in an average sized room with little to no acoustic treatment produce a descending FR, so the lowest octaves are typically anywhere from 10db to 20db higher/louder than the highest octaves/frequencies.

In addition, depending on the type of tweeter used, a graph of the speaker's FR may also show a greater downward curve above 12kHz-16kHz, in which case, 16kHz may be more than 20db lower than 30Hz.

Legacy Audio speakers tend to produce a flatter frequency response all the way out to 20kHz, so the highest frequencies are almost as high in measured db as the lowest frequencies.

If you're used to a descending FR, you might find the Legacy Audio speakers to be too 'bright'.

The speakers I previously had produced a descending response with a measured 15db drop in my room from 30Hz to 20kHz. I prefer this response for a lot of music.

The Focus SEs that I have are great for movies and HT though, where they're calibrated for a flat in-room response (which happens to be very close to their natural non-EQ'ed in-room FR) to reproduce THX Reference.


Max
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post #512 of 530 Old 03-24-2015, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post
Davide,

I meant that different speaker manufacturers design their speakers with different Frequency Response patterns.

Many speakers, when placed in an average sized room with little to no acoustic treatment produce a descending FR, so the lowest octaves are typically anywhere from 10db to 20db higher/louder than the highest octaves/frequencies.

In addition, depending on the type of tweeter used, a graph of the speaker's FR may also show a greater downward curve above 12kHz-16kHz, in which case, 16kHz may be more than 20db lower than 30Hz.

Legacy Audio speakers tend to produce a flatter frequency response all the way out to 20kHz, so the highest frequencies are almost as high in measured db as the lowest frequencies.

If you're used to a descending FR, you might find the Legacy Audio speakers to be too 'bright'.

The speakers I previously had produced a descending response with a measured 15db drop in my room from 30Hz to 20kHz. I prefer this response for a lot of music.

The Focus SEs that I have are great for movies and HT though, where they're calibrated for a flat in-room response (which happens to be very close to their natural non-EQ'ed in-room FR) to reproduce THX Reference.


Max
So you mean that a flat response speaker (like your Focus SEs) is more suitable for movies and HT rather than music ?

If yes, that could be the reason why I feel the problem. I could easily ask the dealer for a change, but only if I will get another Legacy speaker: what about the Calssic HD or the Signature SE ?
Otherwise I will have to sell them and look for another brand: in that case I would appreciate any suggestion from you, staying on the quality level of Legacy.

Thnx
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post #513 of 530 Old 03-24-2015, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dado73 View Post
So you mean that a flat response speaker (like your Focus SEs) is more suitable for movies and HT rather than music ?

If yes, that could be the reason why I feel the problem. I could easily ask the dealer for a change, but only if I will get another Legacy speaker: what about the Calssic HD or the Signature SE ?
Otherwise I will have to sell them and look for another brand: in that case I would appreciate any suggestion from you, staying on the quality level of Legacy.

Thnx
It's not that the Focus SE's flatter FR make them better for HT than music per se, but calibrating for THX Reference for HT produces a flat response, so a speaker with a natively flat in-room response (and higher sensitivity and power handling) make it a good option.

When it comes to music on the other hand, some listeners prefer a tilted/descending FR and others prefer a flatter FR so it's more of a personal preference (I tend to prefer a descending/tilted response for music).


Max
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post #514 of 530 Old 04-06-2015, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dado73 View Post
So you mean that a flat response speaker (like your Focus SEs) is more suitable for movies and HT rather than music ?
Bit late here, but I've been reading a lot lately on "house curves" and happen to come across this thread. My setup is all Legacy, with Whisper XDS fronts. After owning them for about 6 months I finally got interesting in experimenting with the supplied processor. Prior to that, I had a technician set up the processor. When I first took measurements I noticed a downward sloping FR. Thinking that flat was ideal, I EQed to get it pretty flat. After listening, I was shocked by how badly it sounded. Wondering why, I came across many threads discussing this subject, and two studies that suggest that, with music, most listeners think flat is bright and unnatural. This article references both studies (the famous B&K and Sean Olive's): http://www.computeraudiophile.com/bl...le-system-126/

Conversely, flat DOES seem to sound better with movies. The reason is, strangely, correlative to the above. There's a standard with movie mixing called the "X-Curve:" http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...es-6-2002.html If you EQ to flat (or with slight roll-off, which I think is what Audyssey does), with the way most movies are mastered, you'll end up with a response close to, you guessed, the curves mentioned above.

So I've come to the tentative conclusion that the ideal curves for music and movies are indeed different, and I think when I get my sub I'm going to experiment using the Olive and B&K curves as a basis for music, attempting to dial that in using REW and the Xilica, and then letting Audyssey handle the curve for movies. Ironically, this was the setup I was using prior to my fiddling with the processor and I thought it sounded fantastic. My curiosity got the best of me and now I'm both more enlightened and confused (if that makes sense).

I know the cheaper Legacy models don't come with the Xilica. It's also difficult for me to know what to advise without you posting a measurement, but here's one suggestion: toe-in the speakers so that they cross in front of your face rather than behind. That might give you more of a HF roll-off. Also: what's the size of your room? I've read that smaller rooms tend to require sharper HF roll-off. Don't know if there are any studies corroborating that, though.

If you can afford them, definitely look into The Whispers. IMO, they're ideally designed to deal with precisely this problem, as not only do they interact with the room less than most speakers because of the design, the fact that they come with a processor means that you can experiment with different curves, use that for music, and then use another processor for home theater if you want it.
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post #515 of 530 Old 05-12-2015, 01:21 PM
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Thinking about getting the Signature SEs and want to update my amplifier to Pass XA30.8. 60 class A watts into 4 ohms and perhaps 150 class AB watts into 4 ohms. Is this a match made in heaven? Most of my listening is in the 70-80 dB range (average). I prefer Pass' class A models to their AB models and the XA30.8 is about all I can afford.


My other alternative would be to sell the DAC (Resonessence Invicta), preamp (Pass XP 10) and amp (NewClear NC1000) then get a Devialet 200, but I am not too sure about this move.


Of the two options which would you prefer and why?


Thanks in advance
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post #516 of 530 Old 05-12-2015, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by robertawillisjr View Post
Thinking about getting the Signature SEs and want to update my amplifier to Pass XA30.8. 60 class A watts into 4 ohms and perhaps 150 class AB watts into 4 ohms. Is this a match made in heaven? Most of my listening is in the 70-80 dB range (average). I prefer Pass' class A models to their AB models and the XA30.8 is about all I can afford.


My other alternative would be to sell the DAC (Resonessence Invicta), preamp (Pass XP 10) and amp (NewClear NC1000) then get a Devialet 200, but I am not too sure about this move.


Of the two options which would you prefer and why?


Thanks in advance
The good thing about Legacy speakers is that they are efficient. No need for a whole lot of power to drive them properly just by looking at the specs. On the other hand, you always see them paired with quite powerful amps in shows and stuff and I remember how Brolic Beast would pair his former Focus SE with Emotiva XPR-1 monos and have them peak once or twice when playing a movie or something, indicating that they would occasionally demand a lot of power. But that's all dependent on how loud you want to listen to anyway. Generally I would not worry about it. Should you decide to buy the Pass Labs amp, you should be fine..

The Devialet platform is a very convenient and flexible platform.. I have not heard it personally, but have read quite a bit about it.. It regularly receives very good reviews and comments.. This review from Computer Audiophile was done using TAD CR-1 which are 86db efficient vs 93db for the Signature SEs.

I would go that route, unless you are into DSD music, where you would need to keep your DAC for native conversion from DSD to analog. Another route would be to keep your DAC and get a nice class D amp like NAD M22 or Merrill Audio Taranis.. These are based on Hypex nCore technology which has been raved about quite a lot and they provide a lot of clean power and have basically 0 noise floor. I would love to be able to get some one of these in my system.

Just my suggestion.. as these would be my preferences..but of course.. do what you feel is right for you..

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post #517 of 530 Old 05-12-2015, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by eliwankenobi View Post
The good thing about Legacy speakers is that they are efficient. No need for a whole lot of power to drive them properly just by looking at the specs. On the other hand, you always see them paired with quite powerful amps in shows and stuff and I remember how Brolic Beast would pair his former Focus SE with Emotiva XPR-1 monos and have them peak once or twice when playing a movie or something, indicating that they would occasionally demand a lot of power. But that's all dependent on how loud you want to listen to anyway. Generally I would not worry about it. Should you decide to buy the Pass Labs amp, you should be fine..

The Devialet platform is a very convenient and flexible platform.. I have not heard it personally, but have read quite a bit about it.. It regularly receives very good reviews and comments.. This review from Computer Audiophile was done using TAD CR-1 which are 86db efficient vs 93db for the Signature SEs.

I would go that route, unless you are into DSD music, where you would need to keep your DAC for native conversion from DSD to analog. Another route would be to keep your DAC and get a nice class D amp like NAD M22 or Merrill Audio Taranis.. These are based on Hypex nCore technology which has been raved about quite a lot and they provide a lot of clean power and have basically 0 noise floor. I would love to be able to get some one of these in my system.

Just my suggestion.. as these would be my preferences..but of course.. do what you feel is right for you..
I talked to the folks at Pass and they say that I'll be good. I have been following the Devialet Chat Forum and they all love the sound but have problems with configurations and getting timely responses from the company. DSD and other news are expected to be announced this week at the Munich show. If DSD/DoP is announced, I'll probably audition it and see if it is for me. But I do like that class A Pass sound.:-)

Thanks

Last edited by robertawillisjr; 05-13-2015 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Addition.
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post #518 of 530 Old 05-12-2015, 05:18 PM
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Glad to know...

I'm sure the Pass Labs will be very nice!
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post #519 of 530 Old 06-04-2015, 05:12 PM
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Went with the Devialet. Sold my equipment and used those funds to make my cash outlay reasonable. I bought the D 200 model and it sounds great.

The Signature is still high on my list but I will listen to a Focal first.
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post #520 of 530 Old 06-04-2015, 09:19 PM
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Went with the Devialet. Sold my equipment and used those funds to make my cash outlay reasonable. I bought the D 200 model and it sounds great.

The Signature is still high on my list but I will listen to a Focal first.
Good !

The Devialet should be plenty! And I believe that one can be reconfigured as a mono amp as well so you can get another and have a dual mono setup!


Focal are also known to be very neutral speakers, in that vein I would also recommend auditioning Revel Performa 3 as well as Ascend Acoustics speakers, especially their Sierra-2 and Sierra tower both with RAAL ribbon tweeters. The only issue for Ascend is that they are internet direct only. No dealers to demo there. Your best bet would be to try and find a kind soul that would allow you to demo them at their home.

Good luck on your plans! I lust for a pair of Signature SEs! But they are too big for my room.

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post #521 of 530 Old 06-15-2015, 03:12 PM
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I know the cheaper Legacy models don't come with the Xilica. It's also difficult for me to know what to advise without you posting a measurement, but here's one suggestion: toe-in the speakers so that they cross in front of your face rather than behind. That might give you more of a HF roll-off. Also: what's the size of your room? I've read that smaller rooms tend to require sharper HF roll-off. Don't know if there are any studies corroborating that, though.

If you can afford them, definitely look into The Whispers. IMO, they're ideally designed to deal with precisely this problem, as not only do they interact with the room less than most speakers because of the design, the fact that they come with a processor means that you can experiment with different curves, use that for music, and then use another processor for home theater if you want it.
Thank you for your answer, but there's still something I don't undestand. I have listened to several different loudspeakers, but I never had such kind of problem with tweeters. B&W (800 series) sound is wonderful. Avalon (all models) sound is quite different, but wonderful. Etc... My Legacy are unlistenable, and I don't think anyone cpould say the opposite. I'm so discouraged...
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post #522 of 530 Old 06-19-2015, 08:54 AM
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I am set to get a Legacy speaker. Either the Signature or Focus. My room is 20X13X8 (feet) and I am leaning towards the Focus. Any counter arguments.
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post #523 of 530 Old 06-20-2015, 07:42 AM
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No argument here just a suggestion. Get a playmate for that single speaker. My old Focus always sounded better when working as a team. Seriously though you can't go wrong with either model.
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post #524 of 530 Old 06-20-2015, 12:46 PM
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No argument here just a suggestion. Get a playmate for that single speaker. My old Focus always sounded better when working as a team. Seriously though you can't go wrong with either model.
Thanks.
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post #525 of 530 Old 06-20-2015, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dado73 View Post
Thank you for your answer, but there's still something I don't undestand. I have listened to several different loudspeakers, but I never had such kind of problem with tweeters. B&W (800 series) sound is wonderful. Avalon (all models) sound is quite different, but wonderful. Etc... My Legacy are unlistenable, and I don't think anyone cpould say the opposite. I'm so discouraged...
It's hard to know what to suggest without being able to see any measurements or take a look at the speaker. All I can say is that I didn't have that problem with the Whispers and I haven't heard of others having that problem with other models. You might check your local area to see if you can find anyone that would have a general knowledge of speakers to check it out. It might indeed be a faulty crossover or something else.
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post #526 of 530 Old 06-27-2015, 01:50 PM
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Well, I love my Signature SE's w/Air Motion, but I'm considered picking up a USED pair of Focus SE's without Air Motion. For those who had the luxury of demo'ing Legacy Audio speakers with the current Air Motion technology versus the tweeter setup, what were your thoughts? I've attached a picture of the Focus SE model that I'd be purchasing.


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post #527 of 530 Old 06-27-2015, 02:01 PM
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Well, I love my Signature SE's w/Air Motion, but I'm considered picking up a USED pair of Focus SE's without Air Motion. For those who had the luxury of demo'ing Legacy Audio speakers with the current Air Motion technology versus the tweeter setup, what were your thoughts? I've attached a picture of the Focus SE model that I'd be purchasing.


I got rid of those Focus SE to get the Aeris. I don't know who would complain about the new Air Motion tweeter. Sounds smother to me.

You should be happy with the old Focus SE. I just think the new tweeter iOS not as bright. I'm comparing Apples to Oranges it's all personal taste.

I am wondering if I should have gotten the Whispers and how much for an update. Be happy to get a used set with Air Motion tweeter.
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I got rid of those Focus SE to get the Aeris. I don't know who would complain about the new Air Motion tweeter. Sounds smother to me.

You should be happy with the old Focus SE. I just think the new tweeter iOS not as bright. I'm comparing Apples to Oranges it's all personal taste.

I am wondering if I should have gotten the Whispers and how much for an update. Be happy to get a used set with Air Motion tweeter.

Think Legacy could update the Focus SE's (pictured) with Air Motion instead? I'm getting a deal on the USED Focus pair, so I could savings for the upgrade
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post #529 of 530 Old 06-27-2015, 02:49 PM
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Guys, both models of the Focus SE use Air Motion Transformer Tweeters...That is the name of that accordion type of design and is under the Ribbon tweeter category.

And actually, the top part of the new tweeter assembly, is exactly the same as the old one, which is shared throught the rest of the line. The difference is the design of the assembly itself, not the tweeters themselves...But It does look better!

The point is, the first type of Focus SE shown on the picture above, even though it has the Legacy design (get it??!!) has won many awards and is the one featured in different articles of recordong studios that use that type of design! I have only heard the new one, but I am sure that unless you have them both side by side, the difference would not be that easy to discern. If you are getting a GOOD DEAL on those Focus SEs, I would jump on it!!!

On the other hand, your Signature SEs are amazing speakers! And I would advocate for getting a pair of really killer subs and a preamp with Bass Management!
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post #530 of 530 Old 06-27-2015, 04:21 PM
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Guys, both models of the Focus SE use Air Motion Transformer Tweeters...That is the name of that accordion type of design and is under the Ribbon tweeter category.

And actually, the top part of the new tweeter assembly, is exactly the same as the old one, which is shared throught the rest of the line. The difference is the design of the assembly itself, not the tweeters themselves...But It does look better!

The point is, the first type of Focus SE shown on the picture above, even though it has the Legacy design (get it??!!) has won many awards and is the one featured in different articles of recordong studios that use that type of design! I have only heard the new one, but I am sure that unless you have them both side by side, the difference would not be that easy to discern. If you are getting a GOOD DEAL on those Focus SEs, I would jump on it!!!

On the other hand, your Signature SEs are amazing speakers! And I would advocate for getting a pair of really killer subs and a preamp with Bass Management!
The 7 inch speakers now have a bigger magnet.
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