***The Official Ascend Acoustics Sierra Thread*** - Page 111 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3301 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 10:54 AM
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Im thinking about the Sierra 2's to replace some Paradigm Studio 20s for my office. Its between the sierras, kef ls50's and monitor audio gx100's. I just keep waffling back and forth. Someone convince me.
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post #3302 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rawrbington View Post
Im thinking about the Sierra 2's to replace some Paradigm Studio 20s for my office. Its between the sierras, kef ls50's and monitor audio gx100's. I just keep waffling back and forth. Someone convince me.
Well if you're going to be placing them on/in bookcases/shelves and/or near the wall behind it in an office environment, if I'm not mistaken, the Sierras offer optional port plugs that in effect provide boundary compensation, and I may be wrong here, but I seriously doubt that either the Kefs nor the MAs have any kind of BC such as this.
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post #3303 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
When I ren Audessey it set my fronts (Sierra-1 NrT) as Large .. so full range. Assuming, full range EQ. So when I change it to Small and trim it at 60 crossover, I think EQ is applied.

Recently I did however notice that music .... I am bypassing Audyssey for left and right channels. Music sounds so much more natural. Someone though told me that when you bypass L/R it also has some effect on the subwoofer ... now I am concerned.
EQ is applied in either setting, large or small, the large or small is about how the bass content is directed.

Audyssey L/R Bypass, from Audyssey: "Some manufacturers have decided to implement a Bypass L/R (or Front) setting. This uses the MultEQ filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right loudspeakers. The average measured response from the front left and right loudspeakers is used as the target curve for the remaining loudspeakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above. This is not a setting recommended by Audyssey."
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post #3304 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
80 for the fronts and the HTM-200s are set where Audyssey set them - 100 if I remember correctly. I never set the crossover lower than what Audyssey sets the speaker at - no eq for anything below that setting.
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EQ is applied in either setting, large or small, the large or small is about how the bass content is directed.

Audyssey L/R Bypass, from Audyssey: "Some manufacturers have decided to implement a Bypass L/R (or Front) setting. This uses the MultEQ filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right loudspeakers. The average measured response from the front left and right loudspeakers is used as the target curve for the remaining loudspeakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above. This is not a setting recommended by Audyssey."
but when I do it, music sounds 2 times better than with full Audyssey ON. My sub also starts to hit harder. Does that mean that Audessey is somewhat lowering my Subwoofer output ?

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post #3305 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 12:07 PM
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but when I do it, music sounds 2 times better than with full Audyssey ON. My sub also starts to hit harder. Does that mean that Audessey is somewhat lowering my Subwoofer output ?
Could be....since it says it now eq's your sub to flat. I've tried the L/R bypass too and personally don't use it, I usually use Audyssey Flat setting. Are you listening in stereo or multi-ch? Are you adjusting for non-movie sources with Reference Level Offset?
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post #3306 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 12:20 PM
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Could be....since it says it now eq's your sub to flat. I've tried the L/R bypass too and personally don't use it, I usually use Audyssey Flat setting. Are you listening in stereo or multi-ch? Are you adjusting for non-movie sources with Reference Level Offset?

I am listening to multi channel music and so I am concerned that my front stage is a bit out of whack ... left and right speakers are bypassed Audyssesy while center is not.

So, if I continue using this bypass L/R setting, it means that the Audyssey XT32 is not benefiting my subwoofer at all. Only distance setting is active?

I have no idea what "Reference Level Offset" is, sorry

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post #3307 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
I am listening to multi channel music and so I am concerned that my front stage is a bit out of whack ... left and right speakers are bypassed Audyssesy while center is not.

So, if I continue using this bypass L/R setting, it means that the Audyssey XT32 is not benefiting my subwoofer at all. Only distance setting is active?

I have no idea what "Reference Level Offset" is, sorry
What is the source of your multi-ch music?

If the sub is still being eq'd whether the result is a "benefit" or not is only as good as you like it. AFAIK distance/delay and speaker levels won't change.

RLO is a way of adjusting DEQ for non-movie sources (since movies are recorded to a standard of sorts whereas music is not), per Audyssey again https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...eference-Level
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post #3308 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 12:47 PM
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What is the source of your multi-ch music?

If the sub is still being eq'd whether the result is a "benefit" or not is only as good as you like it. AFAIK distance/delay and speaker levels won't change.

RLO is a way of adjusting DEQ for non-movie sources (since movies are recorded to a standard of sorts whereas music is not), per Audyssey again https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...eference-Level
Source .... sometimes SACDs out of Sony blu ray player, sometimes DTSCD files from my media player

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post #3309 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 02:47 PM
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I got my Sierra-1 NrT (l/r/c) being kind of far from listening position. How far? About 18-19 feet. Is this a problem? Someone mentioned to me that these were not designed to be used in such distance. That these are much better suited for near field.

Other option is to place these as surrounds and get Towers for mains?

thanks

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post #3310 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
I got my Sierra-1 NrT (l/r/c) being kind of far from listening position. How far? About 18-19 feet. Is this a problem? Someone mentioned to me that these were not designed to be used in such distance. That these are much better suited for near field.

Other option is to place these as surrounds and get Towers for mains?

thanks
Yeah at 15 feet I'd rather be closer but its my living room and this is where stuff is gonna be for a while. While the Sierras do fine for my purposes I still want to build some speakers that are higher sennsitivity, like something from the DIYSG SEOS lineup. Then I could repurpose the Sierras to the bedroom.... You might want to check with David at Ascend as to how much the difference would be between the towers (and with which tweeter) vs Sierra 1 or even Sierra 2 bookshelf speakers. The Horizons across the front appeal to me...
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post #3311 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
I got my Sierra-1 NrT (l/r/c) being kind of far from listening position. How far? About 18-19 feet. Is this a problem? Someone mentioned to me that these were not designed to be used in such distance. That these are much better suited for near field.

Other option is to place these as surrounds and get Towers for mains?

thanks
19' from bookshelf speakers are a long distance. The Sierra-1 have a sensitivity rating of 87dB/W/m, which means at a distance of 3.3' away from the Sierra-1 and the amp providing 1W of power, the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) is 87dB.

Doubling the distance effectively reduces the SPL by 6dB. So if you're 6.6' away, the Sierra-1 will sound like 81dB SPL.

The relationship on amp power, SPL, number of speakers and where they are placed in the room can be determined easily by the following web app: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

The aim is to reach peak reference level of 105dB at the Main Listening Position (MLP), i.e. where you sit. Note that this is short term peak and nominal value is about 20dB below this, i.e. 85dB.

How much power do you need to reach peak level based on a stereo pair of Sierra-1, the distance away to MLP and closeness to the room boundaries?

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post #3312 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 09:16 PM
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The aim is to reach peak reference level of 105dB at the Main Listening Position (MLP), i.e. where you sit. Note that this is short term peak and nominal value is about 20dB below this, i.e. 85dB.
Many people do not even come close to reference level peaks in their listening...especially in their living rooms.

I suggest getting an SPL meter to really understand the listening levels you are comfortable with.
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post #3313 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 11:12 PM
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^cschang,

Agree that many wont want listen at reference level in their homes, but the ability to reach it provides the headroom needed if there is a desire to go to 0dB on the Master Volume.

If the speakers and amp start to clip below reference level, there needs to be hard limits placed on the Master Volume to avoid damaging the equipment as well as one's hearing. Distortion should be audible when clipping occurs.

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post #3314 of 3330 Old 04-09-2015, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
When I ren Audessey it set my fronts (Sierra-1 NrT) as Large .. so full range. Assuming, full range EQ. So when I change it to Small and trim it at 60 crossover, I think EQ is applied.

Recently I did however notice that music .... I am bypassing Audyssey for left and right channels. Music sounds so much more natural. Someone though told me that when you bypass L/R it also has some effect on the subwoofer ... now I am concerned.
Why be concerned? If you like the way it sounds, that's all that matters.
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post #3315 of 3330 Old 04-10-2015, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
^cschang,

Agree that many wont want listen at reference level in their homes, but the ability to reach it provides the headroom needed if there is a desire to go to 0dB on the Master Volume.

If the speakers and amp start to clip below reference level, there needs to be hard limits placed on the Master Volume to avoid damaging the equipment as well as one's hearing. Distortion should be audible when clipping occurs.
Sure, you need headroom, but reference level isn't the goal for that.

People need to understand their listening levels to judge what kind of amplification they need.

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post #3316 of 3330 Old 04-10-2015, 06:24 AM
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^cschang,

Thought reference levels were a worthwhile goal that most AV enthusiasts should be aiming for in their home - no? The system should be designed and components selected such that there is headroom to play and reproduce the full spectrum soundtrack cleanly as well as dealing with peaks/transients.

If one's design goal is to be less than reference, what should that target be? What should the peaks and transients be? 5dB? 10dB? 15dB? 20dB? This is before limits such as clipping are reached.

Would any AV enthusiast be satisfied knowing they've got something or put together something that is less than sufficient? Seems to be short changing those willing to build out and spending resources for a home theater system.

Just my opinion.

Looks like this discussion is going OT and will not be posting further.

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post #3317 of 3330 Old 04-10-2015, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post
Well if you're going to be placing them on/in bookcases/shelves and/or near the wall behind it in an office environment, if I'm not mistaken, the Sierras offer optional port plugs that in effect provide boundary compensation, and I may be wrong here, but I seriously doubt that either the Kefs nor the MAs have any kind of BC such as this.
The recommendation for using the port plugs in different with the Sierra 2s - Dave has said no port plugs are necessary when placing the speaker near wall. I upgraded from 1s to 2s. With the 1s I used port plugs per Ascend's recommendation and the speakers are placed about an inch or two from a wall within a bookshelf system. Enough room to avoid the terminals hitting the back wall which is corrugated steel. The 2s do not need the plugs, sound excellent near/next/in a confined space.

I still use a pair of 1s for surrounds, they are great speakers and if $ was a concern I would recommend them in a second, upgradeable later too. If you want the mac daddy of bookshelf speakers and you have the $ - then go for the Sierra 2s. The new SEAS woofer, RAAL tweeter and new crossover just take them to another level above the 1s - as it should be given the extra cost.

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post #3318 of 3330 Old 04-10-2015, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post
Many people do not even come close to reference level peaks in their listening...especially in their living rooms.

I suggest getting an SPL meter to really understand the listening levels you are comfortable with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
19' from bookshelf speakers are a long distance. The Sierra-1 have a sensitivity rating of 87dB/W/m, which means at a distance of 3.3' away from the Sierra-1 and the amp providing 1W of power, the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) is 87dB.

Doubling the distance effectively reduces the SPL by 6dB. So if you're 6.6' away, the Sierra-1 will sound like 81dB SPL.

The relationship on amp power, SPL, number of speakers and where they are placed in the room can be determined easily by the following web app: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

The aim is to reach peak reference level of 105dB at the Main Listening Position (MLP), i.e. where you sit. Note that this is short term peak and nominal value is about 20dB below this, i.e. 85dB.

How much power do you need to reach peak level based on a stereo pair of Sierra-1, the distance away to MLP and closeness to the room boundaries?
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Why be concerned? If you like the way it sounds, that's all that matters.
No way am I interested to increase volume to reference level. I have never increased volume loud enough to get to the point where I hear clipping or anything else ... just very loud output that I have no interested in listening to. I am in an apartment building and after having a child, my volume (unfortunately) rarely gets to what it used to be in my "single pad".

Regarding sound ... I am now experimenting with Audyssey setting speakers to FLAT vs Bypass L/R. Both options get my subwoofer to sound better/louder. For music, definitely better ... for movies ... not so much.

What does this say about my room acoustics? Low frequencies bouncing around and thus room correction software is dimming down my subwoofer?

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post #3319 of 3330 Old 04-10-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
The recommendation for using the port plugs in different with the Sierra 2s - Dave has said no port plugs are necessary when placing the speaker near wall. I upgraded from 1s to 2s. With the 1s I used port plugs per Ascend's recommendation and the speakers are placed about an inch or two from a wall within a bookshelf system. Enough room to avoid the terminals hitting the back wall which is corrugated steel. The 2s do not need the plugs, sound excellent near/next/in a confined space.
Not saying I don't believe you, but are the S2s tuned specifically for such placement? Otherwise, I'd like to hear the explanation of how when they are placed in/on a bookshelf/bookcase near the wall, there is no increase in bass energy due to boundary reinforcement of the mid-bass frequencies' range response up to 500Hz or so as opposed to placement away from any boundaries.
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post #3320 of 3330 Old 04-10-2015, 02:13 PM
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Horizons with RAAL ribbons arrived today, HOORAY!

Do I need to change the IMPEDANCE setting on my Sony ES receiver to 4 ohms or should I leave it at 8?? From the instruction manual:

Speaker impedance

To enjoy multi channel surround, connect front, center, surround, and surround back speakers with a nominal impedance of 8 ohms or higher and set the IMPEDANCE SELECTOR to "8Ω". Check the operating instructions supplied with your speakers if you're not sure of their impedance. (This information is usually printed on a label on the back of the speaker.)


You may connect a pair of speakers with a nominal impedance between 4 and 8 ohms to all of the speaker terminals. However, even if one speaker within this range is connected, set the IMPEDANCE SELECTOR to "4Ω".

EDIT: While waiting for a forum response I did some quick online research and from what I read I'm thinking I should LEAVE the impedance selector switch at the 8 ohm position. Correct?

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post #3321 of 3330 Old 04-10-2015, 04:29 PM
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It's usually just a limiter to protect the avr. If you don't get crazy with volume shouldn't kick in the protection mode but if it does then maybe. Congrats! Want those...
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post #3322 of 3330 Old 04-11-2015, 01:06 AM
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Got my speakers in and set up but haven't had time to really listen or admire! Really liking the satin cherry. Click image for larger version

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post #3323 of 3330 Old 04-11-2015, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post
Not saying I don't believe you, but are the S2s tuned specifically for such placement? Otherwise, I'd like to hear the explanation of how when they are placed in/on a bookshelf/bookcase near the wall, there is no increase in bass energy due to boundary reinforcement of the mid-bass frequencies' range response up to 500Hz or so as opposed to placement away from any boundaries.
You don't have to believe me, that's what the guy who designed and made the speakers said to do, seriously

And what do I know, I've got them and listen to them daily, and you? This was discussed in detail and comes up from time to time on the Ascend forum, you can learn even more about the S2s over there, Dave is a little more active on his own thread.

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post #3324 of 3330 Old 04-11-2015, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rawrbington View Post
Im thinking about the Sierra 2's to replace some Paradigm Studio 20s for my office. Its between the sierras, kef ls50's and monitor audio gx100's. I just keep waffling back and forth. Someone convince me.
I know the Kef's are special and have received rave reviews, but the RAAL tweeter is something like I've never heard before. Detailed without any harshness or fatigue, a soundstage so wide it sometimes envelopes you to the point that I feel my surround speakers are on, pin point accuracy of the location of instruments, vocals that border on eerie. I can go on and on. You really owe it to yourself to hear them.
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post #3325 of 3330 Old 04-11-2015, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
You don't have to believe me, that's what the guy who designed and made the speakers said to do, seriously

And what do I know, I've got them and listen to them daily, and you? This was discussed in detail and comes up from time to time on the Ascend forum, you can learn even more about the S2s over there, Dave is a little more active on his own thread.
Can you please link or copy & paste it here? I did try to see if I could find it, but apparently you have to register and be a member to do so.

I'm very curious as to how these particular speakers are somehow immune from boundary effects which seem to apply toward virtually any other speaker, and they have the exact same response no matter if they're placed out in the room on stands or right up against the wall in a bookcase.

In my office system, I have a pair of Revel M22s in a bookcase right up against the wall, and they have a boundary compensation switch specifically for that placement scenario which affects the crossover to curb their output below 500Hz or so, and it's very noticeable and obvious when engaging it.

Without it engaged in that placement, the bass is too rich without any DEQ. Flip side of that, the bass is too lean with it engaged while they are out in the room on stands.

NHT Evolution M6s and M5s also have this feature, and I'm sure there are more examples that I don't know about or don't remember at the moment.

ETA - I do vaguely seem to remember reading somewhere that the Sierra's port plugs basically accomplished this same result.

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post #3326 of 3330 Old 04-11-2015, 09:04 AM
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^ send Dave a PM or wait a few days and I expect he will reply. Signing up on the Sierra forum takes about 30 seconds. Great place to get some more info and post questions. Solid community like AVS.

The port plugs are cheap and you can order them with your 2s. That way you have them just in case your like the sound better with them, but that's not my experience, what the maker says to do, or what REW measurements reveal without using any RC software.

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post #3327 of 3330 Old Today, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
^ send Dave a PM or wait a few days and I expect he will reply. Signing up on the Sierra forum takes about 30 seconds. Great place to get some more info and post questions. Solid community like AVS.

The port plugs are cheap and you can order them with your 2s. That way you have them just in case your like the sound better with them, but that's not my experience, what the maker says to do, or what REW measurements reveal without using any RC software.
You keep saying that you're just quoting Dave, but I don't think you are quoting him correctly. My memory could be wrong but I thought he said that the port plugs wouldn't typically be NEEDED with the Sierra-2's. Not that he was recommending against using them in all situations. I have 5 Sierra-2's. I am using port plugs in my surrounds because they are backed up into a corner and that boosts the bass too much. Yes, I measured it with REW. I've also ran Audyssey with and without the port plugs and there is much less correction needed down low when the plugs are installed. So I don't disagree with you that you might not benefit from them, but I could definitely see them being used if the 2's are in a cabinet.
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post #3328 of 3330 Old Today, 02:27 PM
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You got me hunting, Dave's quote:

Originally Posted by davef I apologize for the delay on this question. I had to do some testing... Q-Plugs work fine with the Sierra-2, however -- since the bass response of the Sierra-2 is different -- in general, the use of Q-Plugs with Sierra-2 will be less likely. For those who have Q-Plugs, I suggest experimenting.

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Good job finding it.
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post #3330 of 3330 Old Today, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by auceny View Post
Got my speakers in and set up but haven't had time to really listen or admire! Really liking the satin cherry. Attachment 660401


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Very nice. Enjoy!

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