***The Official Ascend Acoustics Sierra Thread*** - Page 158 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4711 of 4739 Old 02-23-2017, 06:12 PM
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To put it more directly. To me, the Sierra-2 is the more impressive speaker compared to the RAAL Tower, even though the RAAL Tower is decidedly the better speaker. Some might disagree, but at least to me, given the size difference, what impresses me most is just how close the bookshelf comes to the tower despite all it's disadvantages.
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post #4712 of 4739 Old 02-23-2017, 07:48 PM
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I appreciate your comments. You own Ascend both towers and Sierra 2 and are much more knowledgeable than I am. Nonetheless, I stand by my perspective. Based on his original post, the way he listens and the size of the room he is going to want towers. He should start there. If the towers give him the extra SQ he is looking for in music (which I suspect they will) he can fill out the rest of his system. If not Ascend is not for him and he can send them back. I also think this approach gives him more flexibility in how he builds out his system. The Horizon is not inexpensive, he would have the option of not using Sierras in the back possibly using 170s or HTM and using the extra cash for Horizon or subs.
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post #4713 of 4739 Old 02-24-2017, 05:45 AM
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Once you start down the RAAL path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!
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post #4714 of 4739 Old 02-24-2017, 07:37 AM
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Thank you all for your feedback (and Amnesia for the detailed numbers - really helps). This forum has some great members. I've reached out to a local forum member who isn't too active, but hoping he gets PM notifications and I can setup time to audition them.

With all the positive feedback, I'm willing to take a leap of faith on Ascend, but I'm still waffling back and forth on if I need the towers or not, and if so which way to piece it out. An audition would definitely help.

I'll be sure to post my impressions once I pull the trigger.
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post #4715 of 4739 Old 02-24-2017, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Meature View Post
I appreciate your comments. You own Ascend both towers and Sierra 2 and are much more knowledgeable than I am. Nonetheless, I stand by my perspective. Based on his original post, the way he listens and the size of the room he is going to want towers. He should start there. If the towers give him the extra SQ he is looking for in music (which I suspect they will) he can fill out the rest of his system. If not Ascend is not for him and he can send them back. I also think this approach gives him more flexibility in how he builds out his system. The Horizon is not inexpensive, he would have the option of not using Sierras in the back possibly using 170s or HTM and using the extra cash for Horizon or subs.
Have you even HEARD any of the speakers being discussed? To me it seems like you are just going with the "go with the best/most expensive thing you are willing to buy" approach. I'm not sure how you can even make a choice for yourself without hearing them let alone for other people.

What is it you think he's going to be be gaining? The Sierra-2's are already capable of approaching and/or hitting reference levels (though I think people are nutz if they are listening at 105db (peak) lol...

For example, you mention the size of his room, but my room is somewhat ironically setup very similar to his as my living room is connected to my diningroom/kitchen. I also have more cubic feet. I STILL THINK the Sierra-2 is more than capable. And given what he is coming from, if it was on a scale of liek 1-100 SQ, and the RAAL Tower was 100 and the RtiA9 was 10, then I think the Sierra-2 would probably be like 90-95.

I also think that coming from the Polks all the way to the RAAL towers, would take away some of their magic without that step in the middle... Either the Sierra-2 or the Towers are both going to sound substantially better than the polks (imo), to the point that either would be equally impressive. What makes it more fun to start with the little ones, is someday, you decide you are ready to upgrade, and you get to be blown away again.

For further perspective, for subwoofers I have a pair of Funk 18.0c's that cost as much as 3 pairs of Sierra-2's, and I don't think the Sierra-2s would be out of place paired with them in a 2.1/2.2 system. Even their bass without the subs is surprisingly effective. It's actually been somewhat frustrating as I'm an upgrade junkie, and so I'm super tempted to level up to some even higher end speakers just to see what they can do, but it's really hard to justify when most any bookshelves I can find that seem like they might actually be a worthy upgrade are all like 5-10k+ AND I'd have to give up the RAALs.

Realistically speaking if I was the OP, I would get a pair of Sierra-2s, and then put whatever the remainder of the budget for "right now" was toward a better or pair of better subwoofers. That would have the biggest overall SQ improvement at the budget he's talking about now. Then in a few months when he's ready to spend more, he can decide if he needs more up front, or if he just needs to fill out the surrounds and center. I'd be willing to bet when the time comes he would actually favor just adding a pair or two of Lunas either a Sierra-2 or Luna MTM Center (whenever that actually happens :P).
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post #4716 of 4739 Old 02-24-2017, 08:50 AM
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Every person hearing is different and what could sound good to me maybe it doesn't to another person. That's why auditioning speakers in your own room is so critical. Just one month ago I upgrade my speakers to Sierra Towers with RAAL and I'm still impressed. Let me show you in three pictures my speaker journey for the last 7 years. This may help @ballen420 making his decision.

1.- Polk Audio RTiA9s + CSiA6 (2010 - 2013)


2.- Polk Audio LSiM 705s + 706C (2013 - 2016)


3.- Sierra Towers with RAAL + Horizon with RAAL (2017 - )


Guess which setup I like the most? From Setup 1 to Setup 2 the improvement in SQ was very noticeable. With the RTi A setup I wasn't able to listen to music for more than 30 min because those speakers caused me ear fatigue and headaches. That disappeared as soon I upgrade to the LSiM setup. But while the LSiM series are good speakers they lack a little bit of detail. They are very laid back speakers. Which was good for music but not for movies. I do about 90% music and 10% movies. Now with the Sierra Towers with RAAL that missing detail on the LSiM is back and I can listen to them for hours without any ear fatigue. I did also a comparison between the Sierra Tower and the Sierra 2s (I have Sierra 2s as surround speakers) and all I can say is WOW. I don't know how Dave was able to get that full body sound out of such small speaker. Trust me, if your budget only allows you for the Sierra 2s, you won't be disappointed. Are the Sierra 2s in the same league as the Sierra Towers? No, the Sierra Towers are superior on every sense but the Sierra 2s are very, very close to their performance. Just my 2 cents!!!
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #4717 of 4739 Old 02-24-2017, 10:13 AM
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Beautiful setup @enricoclaudio .

Same experience with the RTiA's - I cannot listen for more than a short session without fatigue or a headache setting in. It's unacceptable now that I'm back to using this system for 2 channel audio as well.

Think I'm on a similar path as you as my initial plan was to move to the LSi's with recent discounts, then decided to explore a little further into other brands and most notable ID brands. I had settled on a $3-3.5k budget initially (based on LSi pricing), then decided I really want to find something that doesn't have me yearning for more and found these.

I'm going to pull the trigger on the Sierra 2's and go from there. I'm ok with moving them to surround duties if needed and really liked Amnesia's approach of taking that middle step and allowing for opportunity to be blown away again if eventually upgrading to towers.
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post #4718 of 4739 Old 02-24-2017, 11:20 AM
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I was listening this morning to Bebo & Cigala and this particular tune put a huge smile in my face. I'm in love with my Sierra Towers speakers

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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
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Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #4719 of 4739 Old 02-25-2017, 06:16 AM
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Looking for a pair of speaker isolation pads for my Ascend Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers.

I'm willing to pay for something nice. I'm not interested in cheap foam that resembles packing material and won't hold up.

Thanks in advance! Pics would be helpful too!
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post #4720 of 4739 Old 02-25-2017, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by assassin View Post
Looking for a pair of speaker isolation pads for my Ascend Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers.

I'm willing to pay for something nice. I'm not interested in cheap foam that resembles packing material and won't hold up.

Thanks in advance! Pics would be helpful too!
IsoAcoustics ISO-L8R155 monitor stands is what I use with my Sierra 2s and Dynaudio monitors:







https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...FQ-QaQodR78BDw

If you don't like them, then go with Auralex ProPad:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProPAD
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #4721 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 06:19 AM
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Have you even HEARD any of the speakers being discussed? To me it seems like you are just going with the "go with the best/most expensive thing you are willing to buy" approach. I'm not sure how you can even make a choice for yourself without hearing them let alone for other people.

What is it you think he's going to be be gaining? The Sierra-2's are already capable of approaching and/or hitting reference levels (though I think people are nutz if they are listening at 105db (peak) lol...

For example, you mention the size of his room, but my room is somewhat ironically setup very similar to his as my living room is connected to my diningroom/kitchen. I also have more cubic feet. I STILL THINK the Sierra-2 is more than capable. And given what he is coming from, if it was on a scale of liek 1-100 SQ, and the RAAL Tower was 100 and the RtiA9 was 10, then I think the Sierra-2 would probably be like 90-95.

I also think that coming from the Polks all the way to the RAAL towers, would take away some of their magic without that step in the middle... Either the Sierra-2 or the Towers are both going to sound substantially better than the polks (imo), to the point that either would be equally impressive. What makes it more fun to start with the little ones, is someday, you decide you are ready to upgrade, and you get to be blown away again.

For further perspective, for subwoofers I have a pair of Funk 18.0c's that cost as much as 3 pairs of Sierra-2's, and I don't think the Sierra-2s would be out of place paired with them in a 2.1/2.2 system. Even their bass without the subs is surprisingly effective. It's actually been somewhat frustrating as I'm an upgrade junkie, and so I'm super tempted to level up to some even higher end speakers just to see what they can do, but it's really hard to justify when most any bookshelves I can find that seem like they might actually be a worthy upgrade are all like 5-10k+ AND I'd have to give up the RAALs.

Realistically speaking if I was the OP, I would get a pair of Sierra-2s, and then put whatever the remainder of the budget for "right now" was toward a better or pair of better subwoofers. That would have the biggest overall SQ improvement at the budget he's talking about now. Then in a few months when he's ready to spend more, he can decide if he needs more up front, or if he just needs to fill out the surrounds and center. I'd be willing to bet when the time comes he would actually favor just adding a pair or two of Lunas either a Sierra-2 or Luna MTM Center (whenever that actually happens :P).

I went to a live Rock Concert last night. My wife and another couple ,,, Was in a small completely restored theater,and it was a sold out show .. . really neat ... The band was "Get the Led Out ".. We sat 11 rows back... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0ahUKEwj13Z-T663SAhXKSyYKHe-rC4YQFggqMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gtlorocks.com%2 F&usg=AFQjCNGlf1kfPEzglVITqZpj-zaJjOgOiw..
There's video at the bottom ... Id recommend them highly if your a Zep fan ... Anyway, I took my sound meter with me as after this post I was wondering what the real thing sounds like ( SPL) 110 to 113... So what's wrong with setting your system up to re-create the real thing, and listen at those same levels ... I think your...as you say.. nutz... for pouring a ton of money in a system and then just letting it idle...so to speak .. LOL

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post #4722 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 06:52 AM
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I went to a live Rock Concert last night. My wife and another couple ,,, Was in a small completely restored theater,and it was a sold out show .. . really neat ... The band was "Get the Led Out ".. We sat 11 rows back... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0ahUKEwj13Z-T663SAhXKSyYKHe-rC4YQFggqMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gtlorocks.com%2 F&usg=AFQjCNGlf1kfPEzglVITqZpj-zaJjOgOiw..
There's video at the bottom ... Id recommend them highly if your a Zep fan ... Anyway, I took my sound meter with me as after this post I was wondering what the real thing sounds like ( SPL) 110 to 113... So what's wrong with setting your system up to re-create the real thing, and listen at those same levels ... I think your...as you say.. nutz... for pouring a ton of money in a system and then just letting it idle...so to speak .. LOL
You are misunderstanding how SPL works... Each SPEAKER needs to hit 105db (and subs 115db). If all your speakers are doing 105db and your subs are doing 115db all at once, you are gonna be getting way more than just 110db(A). I'd think you'd be close to 120-125db(A).

And just in case we are forgetting. 120db is 2x as loud as 110db. It is not a small difference. 110db is the volume of a power saw. Pain from volume starts at ~125db. A jackhammer is 130db. A lawnmower is only like 105db.

Last edited by amnesia0287; 02-26-2017 at 06:57 AM. Reason: Clarity
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You are misunderstanding how SPL works... Each SPEAKER needs to hit 105db (and subs 115db). If all your speakers are doing 105db and your subs are doing 115db all at once, you are gonna be getting way more than just 110db(A). I'd think you'd be close to 120-125db(A).

And just in case we are forgetting. 120db is 2x as loud as 110db. It is not a small difference. 110db is the volume of a power saw. Pain from volume starts at ~125db. A jackhammer is 130db. A lawnmower is only like 105db.


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post #4724 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 06:59 AM
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You are misunderstanding how SPL works... Each SPEAKER needs to hit 105db (and subs 115db). If all your speakers are doing 105db and your subs are doing 115db all at once, you are gonna be getting way more than just 110db(A). I'd think you'd be close to 120db(A).

That's way over the top for 99 percent of people . At work, they walk around and do SPL meter readings on the entire floor, not trying to isolate each piece of equipment on the floor .. All I know is from my seating position, I listen to 105 -110 SPL ... just like it was last night .. What that says, according to you means .... ? ...I listen to 120 really? ....
And isn't what it is, at my seating position, all that matters ?

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That's way over the top for 99 percent of people . At work, they walk around and do SPL meter readings on the entire floor, not trying to isolate each piece of equipment on the floor .. All I know is from my seating position, I listen to 105 -110 SPL ... just like it was last night .. What that says, according to you means .... ? ...I listen to 120 really? ....
That's not reference level. To do reference level you would for example calibrate EACH speaker to 85db with pink noise at -20db on your receiver. That means at 0db on the receiver your speaker's are peaking at 105db EACH. But SPL is additive. Think about what SPL means, Sound Pressure Level. Each speaker is producing 105db of pressure. Each doubling of drivers increases SPL by 3-6db depending on the degree of coupling. So with 4 speakers playing 105db would be 111db-117db. Move to 7.1 and you are likely in excess of 120-125db.

If you are measuing peaks at 105-110spl from MUSIC at MLP with all speakers and subwoofers going, you are still quite a bit under reference. And that is my point. No one listens at effing reference. Cause its LOUD.
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post #4726 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 07:45 AM
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That's not reference level. To do reference level you would for example calibrate EACH speaker to 85db with pink noise at -20db on your receiver. That means at 0db on the receiver your speaker's are peaking at 105db EACH. But SPL is additive. Think about what SPL means, Sound Pressure Level. Each speaker is producing 105db of pressure. Each doubling of drivers increases SPL by 3-6db depending on the degree of coupling. So with 4 speakers playing 105db would be 111db-117db. Move to 7.1 and you are likely in excess of 120-125db.

If you are measuing peaks at 105-110spl from MUSIC at MLP with all speakers and subwoofers going, you are still quite a bit under reference. And that is my point. No one listens at effing reference. Cause its LOUD.

Thanks for the lesson . I think for the sake of conversations and ease of complication, we all should just talk about MLP sound levels, as all that other is just useless to anyone other than sound technicians in a testing facility or some type of lab work ...So to be clear, your saying those Marshall Speakers were not at reference levels last night.? But if I had got up and walked up on stage and stuck the meter directly in front of them, they would have been? Its how close you are to the relationship to the speaker?
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Thanks for the lesson . I think for the sake of conversations and ease of complication, we all should just talk about MLP sound levels, as all that other is just useless to anyone other than sound technicians in a testing facility or some type of lab work ...So to be clear, your saying those Marshall Speakers were not at reference levels last night.? But if I had got up and walked up on stage and stuck the meter directly in front of them, they would have been? Its how close you are to the relationship to the speaker?
WE ARE talking about MLP measurements. The point is THX reference level is about speaker levels, not room levels you still calibrate each speaker from MLP. But if all the speakers are at that level at the same time, the net result is greater than the spl of any single one of them.

Live music doesn't have a reference level at all, because they are live and not creating a mastering reference. The volume will generally just be determined by noise ordinances and such. The point of reference level is to match mastering levels of a recording. No recording, no reference level. Live music can range anywhere from like 90-120db.
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post #4728 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 08:21 AM
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Well, I'm still not so clear. So in the studio , they play at 105 spl..? Matching what to what? Reference to what? And these video concerts that I listen to that were recorded "Live",how do they have a reference level ..You say Live has no levels .. This is confusing ,Who thought this stuff up ?
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post #4729 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 08:34 AM
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Well, I'm still not so clear. So in the studio , they play at 105 spl..? Matching what to what? Reference to what? And these video concerts that I listen to that were recorded "Live",how do they have a reference level ..You say Live has no levels .. This is confusing ,Who thought this stuff up ?
Read this:

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/
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post #4730 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 02:07 PM
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This is also a good chart to read:

http://dangerousdecibels.org/educati...me-guidelines/

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Well, I'm still not so clear. So in the studio , they play at 105 spl..? Matching what to what? Reference to what? And these video concerts that I listen to that were recorded "Live",how do they have a reference level ..You say Live has no levels .. This is confusing ,Who thought this stuff up ?
To a calibrated reference. They do the the same thing as you would, just with way better, way more accurate equipment.

So in a mastering suite, the first thing they do is calibrate the room to reference, so just like you would do, they would use pink noise to set each speaker to 105db at -0db volume and the subs to 115db. Then they master the signal up to that level.

So when you talk about reference level, what you are actually saying is you are listening to the audio at the level it was mastered, and in turn the level it was played in theaters.

However, since live music is not mastered, so you can't play it at the level it was mastered, but it doesn't matter, because you are essentially doing mastering and playback at the same time. You have control of all the tracks, so you can ensure nothing is clipping without worrying about reference. Now live music could very well end up at reference level just because, but that doesn't mean that's WHY it was at that level. With live music it's just gonna come down to the Sound engineer, the venue, the local ordinances and the equipment. Generally speaking they will just go with the loudest volume allowed that sounds decent and doesn't clip. However that number could end up anywhere. It is USUALLY going to land between 90-120db.
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post #4732 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 05:00 PM
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Looking for a pair of speaker isolation pads for my Ascend Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers.

I'm willing to pay for something nice. I'm not interested in cheap foam that resembles packing material and won't hold up.

Thanks in advance! Pics would be helpful too!
I also agree with Isoacoustics which is what I have under my Sierra-2s on my computer desk. I use the longer length supports so that the tweeters are at ear level on my desk.
For isolation on metal speaker stands, I use Blu-Tak putty.
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post #4733 of 4739 Old 02-26-2017, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post
Looking for a pair of speaker isolation pads for my Ascend Sierra-2 bookshelf speakers.

I'm willing to pay for something nice. I'm not interested in cheap foam that resembles packing material and won't hold up.

Thanks in advance! Pics would be helpful too!
Also, if you want something nicer, IsoAcoustics also has a nicer metal line called "Aperta": https://www.crutchfield.com/S-7SUc9e...nds-Black.html



I used them for a bit before I got my towers and moved by Sierra-2s to surround duty and I liked them a bunch. I'm sure the plastic ones work equally well, I just wanted something a bit more streamlined.
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post #4734 of 4739 Old 02-27-2017, 12:23 AM
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Looking for NrT upgrade kit for Sierra-1...

Anyone has a set that want to sell? Either new or used would be fine...

5.2.4 HT - Sony XBR75X850C, Denon X6200W, Monitor Audio GS60, GSLCR, GSFX, 4 x C380LCR and 2 x Martin Logan Descent I
2 Channel - Ascend Sierra Tower w/ RAAL, Sony HAP-Z1ES, Marantz SA-KI-Pearl, Parasound Halo P5/A21, SVS SB13 Ultra and ATS Acoustics room treatments
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post #4735 of 4739 Old 02-27-2017, 11:56 AM
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Looking for NrT upgrade kit for Sierra-1...

Anyone has a set that want to sell? Either new or used would be fine...

New ones will be available from Ascend directly. Most people who have done the upgrade from NrT to RAAL (Myself included) most likely returned the NrT components to Ascend for a credit.
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Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post about this, but I'm in the process of upgrading my stereo setup and I'm strongly considering the Sierra Towers w/ Raal. Is there anyone in the Long Island/NYC area who'd be willing to host me for a demo of these (or the NrT, or the Sierra-2s)? I looked through the Auditions thread but didn't see anyone in my area with Sierras. Thanks very much all!
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post #4737 of 4739 Old 02-27-2017, 02:29 PM
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New ones will be available from Ascend directly. Most people who have done the upgrade from NrT to RAAL (Myself included) most likely returned the NrT components to Ascend for a credit.
Yeah, new kit from Ascend sells for $400+ once tax and shipping is added...

Since this particular pair of Sierra-1 I am helping a friend upgrade is around 6 yrs old, hence almost out of warranty, I thought a used NrT tweeter/cross-over would make more financial sense...

5.2.4 HT - Sony XBR75X850C, Denon X6200W, Monitor Audio GS60, GSLCR, GSFX, 4 x C380LCR and 2 x Martin Logan Descent I
2 Channel - Ascend Sierra Tower w/ RAAL, Sony HAP-Z1ES, Marantz SA-KI-Pearl, Parasound Halo P5/A21, SVS SB13 Ultra and ATS Acoustics room treatments
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post #4738 of 4739 Old 02-27-2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by daermonn View Post
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post about this, but I'm in the process of upgrading my stereo setup and I'm strongly considering the Sierra Towers w/ Raal. Is there anyone in the Long Island/NYC area who'd be willing to host me for a demo of these (or the NrT, or the Sierra-2s)? I looked through the Auditions thread but didn't see anyone in my area with Sierras. Thanks very much all!
Try the Ascend forum as well http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/
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post #4739 of 4739 Old Today, 08:42 AM
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I really wish there was a 3-way bookshelf with the midrange of the tower.
It's pricey, but Dave Fabrikant has custom-made tall front-ported bookshelves in a Woofer-mid-tweeter-woofer configuration. I don't see the advantage unless you somehow have some recessed high bookshelf space to slot it into except as a center channel to slide in where the Horizon center won't fit.

Because I run quality subs, I don't need the Sierra Tower to plumb to the 40Hz range, so I'd be happy with Sierra bookshelves if the tower's midrange could be reproduced. The Sierra-2's are no slouches, but the mid-range of the Sierra Towers is so damn good!

The RAAL tweeters are amazing, but I think the true magic of the Sierra Towers is in the mid-frequency range. Dave has selected a cost-effective high quality driver that performs superlatively in the frequencies which are delivered to it.
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