***The Official Ascend Acoustics Sierra Thread*** - Page 80 - AVS Forum
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post #2371 of 3186 Old 10-01-2011, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

Here are some pictures to demonstrate the speaker distances from the walls.

You could try toeing the Sierras out so they are not turned in so much. I would start with them without any toe in and work from there. When I had the Sierras they were 6' apart and I sit 7'-8' away dead center. I found that with just a minimal amount of toe in the Sierras sounded best in my room. Did you try moving your sub back toward the front wall or on the other side of the left speaker?

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post #2372 of 3186 Old 10-01-2011, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle454 View Post

nice! thanks for the reply!
can I ask what model Rythmik sub you have?

I have the f12 in black oak finish. Since my room is smaller and I share a wall with neighbors (I live in a condo building) I did not feel anything larger than the 12 inch woofer would be appropriate. I also didn't want to fork over the extra money for the gloss finish although I do like the looks better.

The f12 is very tight and great with music, and it has enough output to get good thump during movies, but still not causing my neighbors to complain (too much ). I cross over my sierras to the sub at 80 Hz.
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post #2373 of 3186 Old 10-01-2011, 06:09 PM
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I have the f12 in black oak finish. Since my room is smaller and I share a wall with neighbors (I live in a condo building) I did not feel anything larger than the 12 inch woofer would be appropriate. I also didn't want to fork over the extra money for the gloss finish although I do like the looks better.

The f12 is very tight and great with music, and it has enough output to get good thump during movies, but still not causing my neighbors to complain (too much ). I cross over my sierras to the sub at 80 Hz.

I have the F12SE and agree with your thoughts that it is an excellent sounding sub for both music and HT. My room is not huge (14'D x 17'W) and the F12SE does just fine even for LFE heavy action movies. I got the F12SE at a great price used or I probably would have went with the F12 as well.

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post #2374 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post


You could try toeing the Sierras out so they are not turned in so much. I would start with them without any toe in and work from there. When I had the Sierras they were 6' apart and I sit 7'-8' away dead center. I found that with just a minimal amount of toe in the Sierras sounded best in my room. Did you try moving your sub back toward the front wall or on the other side of the left speaker?

Bill

Thanks. Wouldn't hurt to try that. I've just always heard that they should be pointed right at the primary listening position for best results, which is why they are so turned in currently.

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post #2375 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 12:33 PM
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Well, changing the speaker angles made no difference.

I'm back to thinking the issue could be an issue with the volume of the right speaker. I think the audio pans from the center to right speaker are so distracting because there is a noticeable volume increase. When I lower the volume level in the right channel, it sounds more seamless. Only thing is my calibrations don't agree with this. Very frustrating.

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post #2376 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 02:31 PM
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How are you securing the microphone when you measure?

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post #2377 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 04:05 PM
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Well with the Audyssey mic, I don't use a tripod or anything like that. I just set it on top of a stack of stuff, laying as flat as possible, at about ear level. When I do a manual calibration using my Radio Shack SPL meter, I just hold the meter in my hand, with the microphone end pointing slightly up toward the ceiling.

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post #2378 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 05:39 PM
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are the Sierra-1 NrT's available yet?
if not, are the Sierra-1's able to upgrade to the NrT when they become available?

thanks for the heads up!
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post #2379 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

Thanks. Wouldn't hurt to try that. I've just always heard that they should be pointed right at the primary listening position for best results, which is why they are so turned in currently.

There is no set rule for toe in or toe out. Best to play around till you get the best sound to your ears in your room. You have not indicated if you have moved or have tried moving your sub. As I said before in your pictures the sub appears to be forward of the left speaker. If it is then that is in effect blocking the dispersion of that speaker and possibly effecting how your front LCR speakers interact.

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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

Well with the Audyssey mic, I don't use a tripod or anything like that. I just set it on top of a stack of stuff, laying as flat as possible, at about ear level. When I do a manual calibration using my Radio Shack SPL meter, I just hold the meter in my hand, with the microphone end pointing slightly up toward the ceiling.

Both methods you are using are not very good ones to be completely honest. For the best results with Audyssey and taking SPL measurements is to use a camera tripod or a mic stand. Holding the SPL meter in your hand is most likely going to yield very poor readings. The chance of you holding the SPL meter totally still and not blocking the test tones from a specific speaker are not very good.

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post #2380 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Both methods you are using are not very good ones to be completely honest. For the best results with Audyssey and taking SPL measurements is to use a camera tripod or a mic stand. Holding the SPL meter in your hand is most likely going to yield very poor readings. The chance of you holding the SPL meter totally still and not blocking the test tones from a specific speaker are not very good.

Bill, wasn't there also an issue with Audessey mics with some Onkyo units being defective?

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post #2381 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle454 View Post

are the Sierra-1 NrT's available yet?
if not, are the Sierra-1's able to upgrade to the NrT when they become available?

thanks for the heads up!

Yes...they are available. Also, standard Sierra-1's can be upgraded to Sierra-1 NrT's. Best to contact Ascend.

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post #2382 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 07:22 PM
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Wasn't there also an issue with some Audessey mics with some Onkyo units being defective?

Curtis,

Yes there were mic issues but I don't think that would be part of the issue cuzzin is having. I think that his method of doing the calibration and SPL readings could be more of the issue than anything else. He has said if he lowers the volume level of the right speaker the panning is more seamless. But he says then his SPL readings are not all at his reference point (75dB?).

So it seems that maybe his SPL readings are inaccurate and when he does it by ear it sounds much better. If he used a tripod or mic stand the readings might be much more accurate and a more seamless blend of the LCR. If he decides not to use a tripod or mic stand then maybe doing the levels by ear might be best.

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post #2383 of 3186 Old 10-02-2011, 10:28 PM
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Thanks for the ideas, Bill. I guess I should go out and buy a tripod because I don't really have one on hand. I have read a few "how-to's" on calibrating your system using an SPL meter, and I don't recall any instructions against holding the SPL meter in your hand. Some even instruct you to do so, at a certain angle. I know with the Audyssey mic I probably should use a tripod or stand of some sort.

As far as my subwoofer, I will definitely try pushing it further back to the wall. There isn't a whole lot of room behind the sub, but there is some.

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post #2384 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 09:54 AM
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Thanks for the ideas, Bill. I guess I should go out and buy a tripod because I don't really have one on hand. I have read a few "how-to's" on calibrating your system using an SPL meter, and I don't recall any instructions against holding the SPL meter in your hand. Some even instruct you to do so, at a certain angle. I know with the Audyssey mic I probably should use a tripod or stand of some sort.

As far as my subwoofer, I will definitely try pushing it further back to the wall. There isn't a whole lot of room behind the sub, but there is some.

What test tones are you using? What is the source of the tones..the receiver?

Are you experiencing this issue just with DVD/BluRay movies?

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post #2385 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 11:56 AM
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What test tones are you using? What is the source of the tones..the receiver?

Are you experiencing this issue just with DVD/BluRay movies?

I use the test tones on the Digital Video Essentials Blu-ray when I calibrate with the SPL meter. I do have problems bitstreaming the native TrueHD on that disc for some reason, so I just pass it via PCM. When I use Audyssey, the receiver tones are used, obviously.

As far as when I experience the issue, I first really noticed it when watching the Breaking Bad episode "Bullet Points," in a scene where dialog switched between the center and right channel. I thought maybe it was an issue with the broadcast until I noticed it again during a scene on the Scarface Blu-ray, when a gun being fired panned from the center to right channel.

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post #2386 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

I use the test tones on the Digital Video Essentials Blu-ray when I calibrate with the SPL meter. I do have problems bitstreaming the native TrueHD on that disc for some reason, so I just pass it via PCM. When I use Audyssey, the receiver tones are used, obviously.

I believe the receiver should also be able to play its test tones without the use of Audyssey. I would use those and check with your SPL meter, and see if the results are the same as when using the DVE disc.

You have already swapped speakers, and the problem persisted, so it is definitely a room/calibration/setup issue.

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post #2387 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 01:31 PM
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I believe the receiver should also be able to play its test tones without the use of Audyssey. I would use those and check with your SPL meter, and see if the results are the same as when using the DVE disc.

You have already swapped speakers, and the problem persisted, so it is definitely a room/calibration/setup issue.

I know how to use the receiver's own test tones to calibrate, I just always heard using a disc was more accurate because you are calibrating the source more directly. In any event, I will re-calibrate using the Onkyo's test tones later on to see if a difference is made, though I'm not optimistic there will be.

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post #2388 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 03:31 PM
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As far as when I experience the issue, I first really noticed it when watching the Breaking Bad episode "Bullet Points," in a scene where dialog switched between the center and right channel. I thought maybe it was an issue with the broadcast until I noticed it again during a scene on the Scarface Blu-ray, when a gun being fired panned from the center to right channel.

I have found that if you start over analyzing what you are listening to and looking for flaws you'll find them. Have you checked the distance (delay) settings of your front speakers? It could be possible that the issues you are hearing are flaws in the material itself.

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post #2389 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 07:04 PM
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I know how to use the receiver's own test tones to calibrate, I just always heard using a disc was more accurate because you are calibrating the source more directly. In any event, I will re-calibrate using the Onkyo's test tones later on to see if a difference is made, though I'm not optimistic there will be.

Understood...just wondering why when calibrated it doesn't sound correct to you, and better when you do it by ear.

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post #2390 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 09:16 PM
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Understood...just wondering why when calibrated it doesn't sound correct to you, and better when you do it by ear.

I'm wondering the exact same thing.

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post #2391 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 09:23 PM
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I have found that if you start over analyzing what you are listening to and looking for flaws you'll find them. Have you checked the distance (delay) settings of your front speakers? It could be possible that the issues you are hearing are flaws in the material itself.

Bill

I may just have to end up paying a pro home theater calibrator to come set my system up right. I wish someone here had the episode in question on their DVR so they could check it out.

Yes, the delay is about right. Audyssey set it up and I reviewed the numbers it came up with afterward.

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post #2392 of 3186 Old 10-03-2011, 10:05 PM
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I may just have to end up paying a pro home theater calibrator to come set my system up right. I wish someone here had the episode in question on their DVR so they could check it out.

Yes, the delay is about right. Audyssey set it up and I reviewed the numbers it came up with afterward.

Hi Cuzzin,

I have been reading about your situation. From your pictures, it appears like your left speaker is situated in a corner of the room while the right speaker is not.

It is important to understand that when setting levels, SPL meters and receivers will use an average SPL measurement to approximate the levels.

Due to your room, your left speaker is most likely going to have quite a bit of room gain compared to your right speaker. This additional gain can skew the spl measurements such that when all levels are set to zero, the left speaker is measuring with higher SPL then your right speaker such that the right speaker will be set several dB higher to compensate. You also have a rather large subwoofer placed very close to the left speaker and this too will increase gain such that the right speaker will need compensation (boost).

It is highly likely based on what you have posted that the level setting of the right speaker has been boosted such that the "average" sound pressure level is now the same as the right speaker. However, room gain is typically not in the critical upper midrange response and this frequency range might be boosted too high compared to the left speaker such that while the average spl between both speakers is the same, a frequency range that you are sensitive to is now too high on the right speaker compared to the left.

Try this simple experiment... Turn OFF all Audyssey features and manually set the level adjustments for the front speakers to "Zero". Now listen to the same recordings and report back to us.

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post #2393 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 07:23 AM
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Although I highly doubt it is the speaker, have you tried switching the left with the right speaker?
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post #2394 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 08:05 AM
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Although I highly doubt it is the speaker, have you tried switching the left with the right speaker?

I also highly doubt it is a speaker issue. As cuzzin posted once he sets the levels by ear the issue he reports is minimized. I really believe it is setting, room or the material used issue. Or it could be a combination of all three.

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post #2395 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 08:10 AM
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I kind of wonder if the panning differences would be reversed if the sub was placed on the other side in a mirror image kind of configuration.

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post #2396 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 09:53 AM
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As Dave is suggesting, a room gain issue with the lower frequencies could be throwing off the channel balance of the three front speakers. He could try level matching using a 1khz tone.

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post #2397 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 10:19 AM
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I kind of wonder if the panning differences would be reversed if the sub was placed on the other side in a mirror image kind of configuration.

I think cuzzin should disconnect and remove the sub from its present location. I still feel that the sub is causing issues due to its size and location. Try running everything full range with Audyssey off and manually setting distance as well a speaker levels. Then see how it sounds.

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post #2398 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 10:37 AM
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Yeah Bill, there's just something about how that sub is placed that looks out of place. Usually these things are easy to spot like when you're at the beach.


"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #2399 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I think cuzzin should disconnect and remove the sub from its present location. I still feel that the sub is causing issues due to its size and location. Try running everything full range with Audyssey off and manually setting distance as well a speaker levels. Then see how it sounds.

Bill

Good idea, Bill. I would temporarily move the setup within the room or even to another room and see if the problem goes away. I've been following this issue since I saw the picture of his setup. I did a triple take as his rig looks frighteningly similar to my Sierra setup, except mine is 2.1.

And Chu's a chubby chaser--who knew?

******************
Somebody told me it was frightening how much topsoil we are losing each year, but I told that story around the campfire and nobody got scared.
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post #2400 of 3186 Old 10-04-2011, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Yeah Bill, there's just something about how that sub is placed that looks out of place. Usually these things are easy to spot like when you're at the beach.


I love how the women in the "form" fitting black swim suit is giving the women in the blue one the evil eye. I always thought black had a way of making people look slim. I'm down to leaving all my shirts untucked as much as possible so I shouldn't talk.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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