Switching to Klipsch THX Ultra2 system? Whats your opinion of it? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 127 Old 07-14-2007, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Thanks, David.

Do you have just one pair of 650s in that size room or additional 650s, 550s, or 525s for center and/or surround also?

Three 650's up front. I am using SVS PC Ultra sub and Energy RVSS dipole surrounds for now. Not sure if the sub/surround upgrage would yeild a substantial difference in my room.

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post #92 of 127 Old 10-27-2007, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Soundood View Post

Being a Klipsch dealer with an Ultra 2 system on display and a number of them under my belt...I'd say go for it. The difference between that system and the Def Tech system will be night and day. As long as your room is 7000 cubic ft or under, that is a VERY hard system to beat. Sub wise, 4 of the Ultra 2 subs is a good setup if you have a larger space. I've also sold (and display) the Danley Labs DTS-20 sub which is a great match to the U2 sats. If you DO have a large room, and plan a screen wall, you may want to consider a 5 sub setup...only use 3 of the subs to run the LCR's with electronic crossovers (cross the mains in higher up depending on how the response curve in the front reads), and 2 of the subs as dedicated LFE. Set the mains to full range and use the twin setup as an LFE only channel (route the rears to them as well). This SERIOUSLY opens up the screen channel dynamics on that system

Use PLENTY of horsepower. 2X RMS is where the system gets REALLY happy and make sure you get them from somebody who does or will lend you a laser alignment system with adjustable beam spread...makes quite a difference getting them aligned properly and really helps set the side wall acoustic treatment on them (which with the odd horn spread, is very different than conventional speakers). By the way, doing a system of that calibre in a non-treated room isn't really an option...if you aren't treated...get so.

Enjoy!

Soundood,

I will be building a dedicated HT room (100% movies), approximately 2,800 - 3,000 cubic feet.

Would a 200 wpc amp like the Gemstone or the Emotiva MPS-1 make the U2's sing, or should I be looking at a more powerful amp?

Also, what are your thoughts on the surrounds... do you recommend 2 x KS-525's (sides) and 2 x KL-525's (rears), or do you recommend 4 x KS-525's?

BTW... I'm planning on using the 3 x KL-650's for the fronts and 2 x KW-120's for subs.

Cheers!

Bill
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post #93 of 127 Old 10-27-2007, 03:59 PM
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Hello,

I am learning with the UltraII system that they sound better with buying as much power as you can afford. Soundood has said that 2 times the recommended power rating which is about 300 per channel. Soundood has not been around for quite some time where is he??

rmlowz
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post #94 of 127 Old 07-10-2008, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rmlowz View Post

Hello,

I am learning with the UltraII system that they sound better with buying as much power as you can afford. Soundood has said that 2 times the recommended power rating which is about 300 per channel. Soundood has not been around for quite some time where is he??

rmlowz

I'm still around, just been very busy. I own two companies.

For nearly all speakers, a good general rule of thumb for ideal power is 1.5 to 2X RMS rated power. The Ultra 2's like between 225 to 300 per channel in a medium to larger sized space. The speakers seem to get really REALLY happy when they have this kind of horsepower on them. Relaxed sounding and uncompressed on big peaks. For a small to medium-large theater (up to about 6000 cubic ft) there isn't anything better in my book.

Above 6000 cubic ft, you need to start thinking about something bigger like the JTR, Danley Sound Labs or Klipsch Pro Cinema which all have much more output.

"Did you make 'em fine-ass-soundin' speakers over there what would sound gooder than hell comin' out of the back of my truck-boat-truck?"

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post #95 of 127 Old 07-10-2008, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rx-8 View Post

Soundood,

I will be building a dedicated HT room (100% movies), approximately 2,800 - 3,000 cubic feet.

Would a 200 wpc amp like the Gemstone or the Emotiva MPS-1 make the U2's sing, or should I be looking at a more powerful amp?

Also, what are your thoughts on the surrounds... do you recommend 2 x KS-525's (sides) and 2 x KL-525's (rears), or do you recommend 4 x KS-525's?

BTW... I'm planning on using the 3 x KL-650's for the fronts and 2 x KW-120's for subs.

Cheers!

Bill

Hi Bill,
Either of those two amps will be fine in that sized space. I like a bit more power, but they are both enough to do a good job. My favorite single chassis 7 channel amp with the U2 setup is the Earthquake Cinenova Grande (latest version with balanced hookups). I've also been using the Face Audio amps with the Ultra 2 setup with excellent success. It means more rack space and you need to have either a remote rack or a rack with a door (they are fan cooled) but the combination of the two is spectacular.

On the surrounds...my feelings on surrounds are pick the surround that delivers the most even coverage to the seating locations. As a general rule, the closer the seats are to the back surrounds, the more dispersion you need. If your rear seats are at least 3' away from the rear wall and you have no more than 5 seats wide, KL-525's will work fine. Otherwise, the KS-525's are your better bet (remember, they are not dipole's...they are actually ultra wide dispersion monopoles). Don't forget the KL-7800 In-wall monopoles which are NOT a compromise. If you only use one row of seats with a good distance between the rear wall and the seats, you can also use a THX ASA setup with the two rear channels next to each other instead of apart.

"Did you make 'em fine-ass-soundin' speakers over there what would sound gooder than hell comin' out of the back of my truck-boat-truck?"

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post #96 of 127 Old 07-10-2008, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmlowz View Post

Hello,

I am learning with the UltraII system that they sound better with buying as much power as you can afford. Soundood has said that 2 times the recommended power rating which is about 300 per channel. Soundood has not been around for quite some time where is he??

rmlowz

Just a reminder, 97dB efficient speakers will be doing 107dB with only 10W. By that time, they are into pretty massive distortion throughout the midrange and upper bass. You may think the extra power is useful, but it is not. If you buy a lot of power, you might as well buy good speakers as well.

John
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post #97 of 127 Old 07-10-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Just a reminder, 97dB efficient speakers will be doing 107dB with only 10W. By that time, they are into pretty massive distortion throughout the midrange and upper bass. You may think the extra power is useful, but it is not. If you buy a lot of power, you might as well buy good speakers as well.

How do you know that? Also, just because a speaker is 97 db's efficient does not mean it won't dip into the 3 ohms range, so you need an amp that can run 2 ohms easily. Of course, if this speaker only dips to 6 ohms min, then that is not needed. Again, how do you know that it distorts? I am curious, nothing else.
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post #98 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How do you know that? Also, just because a speaker is 97 db's efficient does not mean it won't dip into the 3 ohms range, ...

That is a good point and very relevant as it pertains to the 102 dB rating of my Klipsch RF-7's that evidently dip below 3 Ohms at certain frequencies. The WPC isn't as important as being able to provide enough current to drive the speakers at louder volumes, imo.
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post #99 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How do you know that? Also, just because a speaker is 97 db's efficient does not mean it won't dip into the 3 ohms range, so you need an amp that can run 2 ohms easily. Of course, if this speaker only dips to 6 ohms min, then that is not needed. Again, how do you know that it distorts? I am curious, nothing else.

Because most all 6" speakers will distort into the 10-50% range by 95dB, below about 250hz. Adding two decreases that by about 6dB, so you can get about 100dB without major league distortion. A $2000 Revel bookshelf is nearly 50% distortion by 100Hz at 95dB and that's a helluva speaker. So all this power won't *actually* make the speaker sound better, but it is a nice fuzzy feeling that may have you believing it does. Even if the speaker does dip at a particular frequency and during some, oh, flute solo, you hit that note and only that note, there's a thing on an amp called 'headroom', aside from the fact that most amps will nearly triple their output at 3 ohms right up until the speakers are doing 120dB (and are therefore laying in pieces on the ground)

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post #100 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

That is a good point and very relevant as it pertains to the 102 dB rating of my Klipsch RF-7's that evidently dip below 3 Ohms at certain frequencies. The WPC isn't as important as being able to provide enough current to drive the speakers at louder volumes, imo.

Exactly, except that there's almost no current required to drive those speakers. Might as well put them on the headphone jack of an iPod for all the good a huge amp will do you.

John
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post #101 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Exactly, except that there's almost no current required to drive those speakers. Might as well put them on the headphone jack of an iPod for all the good a huge amp will do you.

So, to the contray of what Soundood says above, you're saying that a larger - i.e. 300 wpc - amp will NOT make the Klipsch Ultra 2 speakers sound any better than say a 140 wpc high end receiver?
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post #102 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 09:39 AM
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Only if it's a better amp. 'Get a more powerful amp' is always trotted out to deal with speakers that don't live up to expectations.

John
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post #103 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bambam View Post

So, to the contray of what Soundood says above, you're saying that a larger - i.e. 300 wpc - amp will NOT make the Klipsch Ultra 2 speakers sound any better than say a 140 wpc high end receiver?

I contend in my less than 250 sq ft/2000 cu ft Ht it more than likely wouldn't. I feel my 140 wpc Denon AVR 4806 THX ultra II provides enough current to drive my Klipsch Home Theater more than sufficiently and adding a 300 wpc amp would be a waste of money.

This is of course off topic because I don't own the Klipsch Ultra II's but wanted to share my opinion. ;-)
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post #104 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 09:50 AM
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I have (3) 650's up front and (4) of the new Ultra 2 in-ceiling speakers in the rear with an SVS PB Ultra for a subwoofer. While I was waiting for my new amp to come in I was using my Rotel 1056 receiver (75W x 5) and it did an OK job. It wasn't till I got my new amp, the Wyred 4 Sound amp 3 x 500 and 4 x 250, before I realized what I was missing.

This amp replaced over 20K (retail prices) of Macintosh amps that I don't miss at all. The Klipsch benefit from high power amps. The biggest difference you will notice is clarity and headroom. I have listened to things at a volume which was at my threshold, without any distortion. Great speakers and great amp combo!
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post #105 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by carlm9 View Post

I have (3) 650's up front and (4) of the new Ultra 2 in-ceiling speakers in the rear with an SVS PB Ultra for a subwoofer. While I was waiting for my new amp to come in I was using my Rotel 1056 receiver (75W x 5) and it did an OK job. It wasn't till I got my new amp, the Wyred 4 Sound amp 3 x 500 and 4 x 250, before I realized what I was missing.

This amp replaced over 20K (retail prices) of Macintosh amps that I don't miss at all. The Klipsch benefit from high power amps. The biggest difference you will notice is clarity and headroom. I have listened to things at a volume which was at my threshold, without any distortion. Great speakers and great amp combo!

So you're running 500 watts to each of the front three KL-650's? Wow!

I'm thinking of getting a high power 3 channel amp to drive my KL-650's and let the amps in my Yamaha Z-11 power my four KS-525 surrounds.

Would I notice a difference?
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post #106 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 11:18 AM
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Bambam, you must understand something. There are two categories of folk here. Those WITH direct experience of the actual system, who have it in their own place (and almost universally love it) and those without any direct experience. The ones who don't have any direct experience, who have never owned it, heard it or judge it based on a completely different product from Klipsch, can talk all they want but ultimately can't speak from a position of knowledge.

Those who actually have the system and have tried it with larger amps, and those who have set it up for numerous people and tried it on all different types of amps at all different power levels...do speak from experience. Speakers are very complex and present very complex loads to an amplifier beyond what a simple impedance rating will show. The best suggestion I can make if you own the system is to try it. Also remember, 1.5X RMS power rating as a recommended amp size for speakers is a very universally recognized standard in the commercial theater, studio and pro sound industry.

Zen...try it. You can't say "more than likely wouldn't" until you experience it. Can't hurt anything...just try it. Particularly if you have the larger Reference models. Only speakers that don't seem to benefit from 1.5x RMS power are the Heritage products.

Alimentall's comments... understand, a lot of folks on the board know his feelings on any speaker with a Klipsch Logo on it...as in "speakers that don't live up to expectations" and "might as well buy good speakers" comments point to. I don't believe his negative experience was with a THX Ultra 2 system (a pair of Klipsch Reference bookshelf speakers unless I am mistaken). My direct experience with selling a number of the Ultra 2 systems is universally positive as is my experience with using larger amplifiers on them vs. smaller ones.

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post #107 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 11:49 AM
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Yes, I've heard Ultra2s. I find them to be mediocre and very overpriced, but that is entirely apart from the argument that they need lots of power and sound better when they have it. Simple understanding of physics makes one realize why that is simply incorrect.

Keep in mind that you'd likely never use more than about 10W, *maybe* 20W peak with most movies and music would be notably less short of a few classical pieces.

John
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post #108 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Yes, I've heard Ultra2s. I find them to be mediocre and very overpriced, but that is entirely apart from the argument that they need lots of power and sound better when they have it. Simple understanding of physics makes one realize why that is simply incorrect.

Keep in mind that you'd likely never use more than about 10W, *maybe* 20W peak with most movies and music would be notably less short of a few classical pieces.

You have your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, based on one listen in an installation which I can or can't say was done correctly (or properly powered ) and a read thru of some basic spec sheets. I have mine, based on 4 years of direct experience with them in numerous installations and on the system in my own demo theater alongside and in direct comparison to many other systems up to and including fully active Tri-amped PMC and Danley Labs systems (which both ARE better but also cost a significant amount more money). As I said, people are free to try it for themselves.

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post #109 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Soundood View Post

You have your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to, based on one listen in an installation which I can or can't say was done correctly (or properly powered ) and a read thru of some basic spec sheets. I have mine, based on 4 years of direct experience with them in numerous installations and on the system in my own demo theater alongside and in direct comparison to many other systems up to and including fully active Tri-amped PMC and Danley Labs systems (which both ARE better but also cost a significant amount more money). As I said, people are free to try it for themselves.

Tom Holman set it up. I guess he knows how to do that. It's not the Klipsch that is the issue, it's just that more power doesn't help unless you *believe* it does and then the placebo effect kicks in. Personally, I'd be selling better speakers to people for $10K, but you're also entitled to sell what you want to sell.

If you're going to buy 100W+ of power, there are speakers that will actually use that power to the customer's benefit. Triads, PSB CI and Synchrony series, Revels, etc, etc, etc. Because of the improved quality of tweeters that now can handle huge amounts of power, horns are unnecessary in home installs, but still useful for pro installs in huge venues. Of course, our customers also expect exceptional music performance, so it depends on the audience.

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post #110 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by carlm9 View Post

I have (3) 650's up front and (4) of the new Ultra 2 in-ceiling speakers in the rear with an SVS PB Ultra for a subwoofer. While I was waiting for my new amp to come in I was using my Rotel 1056 receiver (75W x 5) and it did an OK job. It wasn't till I got my new amp, the Wyred 4 Sound amp 3 x 500 and 4 x 250, before I realized what I was missing.

This amp replaced over 20K (retail prices) of Macintosh amps that I don't miss at all. The Klipsch benefit from high power amps. The biggest difference you will notice is clarity and headroom. I have listened to things at a volume which was at my threshold, without any distortion. Great speakers and great amp combo!

Carlm9: Would you mind please commenting on your opinion of the new ultra2 in-ceiling surrounds (KS-7502-THX, I assume)? Also, are they able to overcome the ceiling placement to deliver convincing surround imaging?

Thanks,
David
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post #111 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Soundood View Post

.... The ones who don't have any direct experience, who have never owned it, heard it or judge it based on a completely different product from Klipsch, can talk all they want but ultimately can't speak from a position of knowledge.

...Speakers are very complex and present very complex loads to an amplifier beyond what a simple impedance rating will show. ...

Zen...try it. You can't say "more than likely wouldn't" until you experience it.

I chose my words carefully and said "more than likely", because I haven't experienced the Klipsch ultra IIs in my house and understand the concept in which you speak. I am not saying there wouldn't be some benefit but it would seem the need would be considerably greater in a 6,000 cu ft room compared to a less than 2,000 cu ft Home Theater.

Fwiw, My Library Home Theater is the latter catagory and I listen to Multi-channel music at 80 to 85 dB at the LP (-18 to -12 on the dial) with peaks that go over 100 dB and I can't imagine I need more headroom.
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post #112 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Tom Holman set it up. I guess he knows how to do that. It's not the Klipsch that is the issue, it's just that more power doesn't help unless you *believe* it does and then the placebo effect kicks in. Personally, I'd be selling better speakers to people for $10K, but you're also entitled to sell what you want to sell.

If you're going to buy 100W+ of power, there are speakers that will actually use that power to the customer's benefit. Triads, PSB CI and Synchrony series, Revels, etc, etc, etc. Because of the improved quality of tweeters that now can handle huge amounts of power, horns are unnecessary in home installs, but still useful for pro installs in huge venues. Of course, our customers also expect exceptional music performance, so it depends on the audience.

We'll, we can switch back and forth between our Bryston 2BSST and our 4BSST and darned if it doesn't sound different...and the amps are identically tonally. Whatever. People are free to use whatever amp they wish, but that is my personal and very consistent experience, not to mention the experience with many people who have tried it both on my recommendation and independently.

By the way, I wouldn't assume Mr. Holman knew how to set it up a Klipsch THX Ultra 2 system, don't know what his experience level is with the Ultra 2 package. There are so many variables which dictate how a system will sound in a room. For example, the throw pattern on the Ultra 2 horns require a different sidewall acoustic treatment placement than most other speakers. If you use the typical placement, it may not sound correct.

My customers also expect great music and theater performance which is one reason we recommend the Klipsch products so often and don't recommend speaker systems which aren't capable of proper theatrical and musical soundtrack reproduction and dynamics. I also demand immersion into the film sound track experience. Having set up several systems which were actually used to record music and film sound tracks and knowing what it is actually SUPPOSED to sound like, the Klipsch system delivers on that sound pretty well in a small to medium sized space. As for for other speakers, I do have some experience with the other products mentioned having tried them out.

Triad does make a very good theater speaker series...their top of the line Platinum series, the ones they say aren't compromised. You know...the ones with the horns. They are marvelous, simply marvelous. Didn't hear them in my demo space but heard them at a client's home (we did an amp upgrade to...surprise surprise...more power) as well as two shows. Nice.

Revel...I tried the latest version Performa's and absolutely could not STAND them. They were bright, shrill and way too clinical sounding for my tastes, left me absolutely cold. The center is decently sized, I'll give them that. Dynamically, the system sounded strained on dynamics peaks. We had the Klipsch RF-83 system in the same room and for the price, I thought the Ref 83 system absolutely tore them apart for less than half the price, sounding completely relaxed, smooth and real without ever getting harsh. I also had big expectations for the sub after hearing so many good things about it, but for the price, not so impressed.

I Tried the PSB's and they were not my cuppa. Also very pricey for what you get. They squeaked where they should have roared. They sounded like a good hifi system reproducing a sound track instead of immersing you in the film. Only briefly heard the Platinum versions once and again, not my cuppa.

Of the ones mentioned, I'd say the Triad Platinum for a dedicated music/theater package is the only one I'd say is equal to or better than the Ultra 2 system. It is 3X the money (29K) and I'd probably change the sub to something with a lot more output and extension, but it is very very good. In that price range, you have some VERY formidable competition like the Active Triamped Danley Lab SH-100B's.

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post #113 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Carlm9: Would you mind please commenting on your opinion of the new ultra2 in-ceiling surrounds (KS-7502-THX, I assume)? Also, are they able to overcome the ceiling placement to deliver convincing surround imaging?

Thanks,
David

Since they haven't started shipping yet, I don't think anybody knows.

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post #114 of 127 Old 07-11-2008, 11:51 PM
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Soundood,
Are you telling me my (4) KS-7502-THX's in my ceiling are a mirage?

I have had them for a little less than a month now and they are incredible. They do a very good job keeping up with the 650's up front. I was going to go with (2) KS-7502's and (2) KL-7502's but my ceiling slopes up toward the front of the room, making placement a problem.

If I had the room, I would have gone with (7) 650's. The in-ceiling's are huge, 16" in diameter and 12-14" deep. They are the same thing as the 650's except they use 5.25" drivers instead of 6.5" and they have (2) tweeters as opposed to (1).

I will say this, those who say you won't notice a difference with the amps obviously has never actually heard them. I have and can tell you the extra power is very complimentary to these Ultra II's. I talked to someone in technical assistance at Klipsh before I ordered my amp and he verified that they will do fine with 100-200 Watts but really shine with 500-600 Watts. I really am impressed with the Wyred 4 Sound amps. I think there are some positive reviews coming out in the next couple of months, so be on the look-out for them.

The whole system images very well and is outstanding for movies. Impact, impact, impact...

I have owned the complete Dali Helicon line-up and most of the Aerial line-up and some of the Legacy HD's. If I had the room, I would get the big Legacy Focus HD's, but I don't. The Legacy's have the most realistic sound and play lound and clear. I am limited to in-ceiling's for my rears and surrounds. This excluded the Aerials, besides, I hated the surround speakers, the SR3's. The Dali Helicon W200's walked all over them. Besides, the Legacy Marquis HD center channel was much better than the famous Aerial CC5. The Dali's are great and imaged as well as the Legacy's, but the center channel, the C200, can't keep up with the big Helicon 800's.

This brings us back to the Klipsch Ultra II's. They are a very happy medium. They don't image as well as the Dali's, Aerials or Legacy's, nor are they as sweet for listening to music, but they do offer the best complete designed system. It is the closest thing I have come to being in an actual Imax theater in my own house.

Next is the cost issue. Even though the Klipsch Ultra system is over $10K, it can be had for a lot less on the used market or a ambitous dealer. I would also recommend a different subwoofer than the Klipsch offers. I have an SVS PB Ultra that does great, but would love to own a Danley DT-20. I purchased my (7) speakers for less than $5K. You can't touch Dali, Aerial or Legacy in a (7) channel configuration used for under $10K.

Bottom line, get the Ultra II's, you won't be dissappointed.
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post #115 of 127 Old 07-12-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundood View Post

We'll, we can switch back and forth between our Bryston 2BSST and our 4BSST and darned if it doesn't sound different...and the amps are identically tonally. Whatever. People are free to use whatever amp they wish, but that is my personal and very consistent experience, not to mention the experience with many people who have tried it both on my recommendation and independently.

I'm just saying that it completely ignores physics. And, of course, you're not doing blind, level matched comparisons, so your mind will tell your ears that it must sound better.
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By the way, I wouldn't assume Mr. Holman knew how to set it up a Klipsch THX Ultra 2 system, don't know what his experience level is with the Ultra 2 package. There are so many variables which dictate how a system will sound in a room. For example, the throw pattern on the Ultra 2 horns require a different sidewall acoustic treatment placement than most other speakers. If you use the typical placement, it may not sound correct.

Well, I can tell you that Audyssey helped the sound of them a LOT whereas we get no such major improvements with higher fidelity speakers.
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Revel...I tried the latest version Performa's and absolutely could not STAND them. They were bright, shrill and way too clinical sounding for my tastes, left me absolutely cold. The center is decently sized, I'll give them that. Dynamically, the system sounded strained on dynamics peaks. We had the Klipsch RF-83 system in the same room and for the price, I thought the Ref 83 system absolutely tore them apart for less than half the price, sounding completely relaxed, smooth and real without ever getting harsh. I also had big expectations for the sub after hearing so many good things about it, but for the price, not so impressed.

Yes, but they hold up on music and do this thing we call 'imaging'. [quote]

I Tried the PSB's and they were not my cuppa. Also very pricey for what you get. They squeaked where they should have roared. They sounded like a good hifi system reproducing a sound track instead of immersing you in the film. Only briefly heard the Platinum versions once and again, not my cuppa.[/quot]

Depends on the PSBs. The Platinums weren't my cup of tea either as they are too forward for my tastes, but the Synchronies absolutely kill any Klipsch speaker I've heard and are incredibly 'dynamic' and yet relaxed and smooth at the same time. NHT's T5 and T6, unfortunately discontinued, were well beyond the quality of the Klipsch system for around half the price as well.
Quote:



Of the ones mentioned, I'd say the Triad Platinum for a dedicated music/theater package is the only one I'd say is equal to or better than the Ultra 2 system. It is 3X the money (29K) and I'd probably change the sub to something with a lot more output and extension, but it is very very good. In that price range, you have some VERY formidable competition like the Active Triamped Danley Lab SH-100B's.

I think we just have different tastes. IMO, the Klipsch starts with a bad design, manages not to completely suck, but charges twice what it should cost. There's no high-end drivers or cabinets there or fancy wood finshes to make the speakers cost so much. It's just another example of why I think Klispsch is second only to Bose at being overpriced. Remember how Klipsch completely destroyed Mondial after buying the company, raising the prices, dropping the quality (literally dropping amp weights to almost 1/2 the original design) and basically putting them out of business?

BUT, even if Klipsch were the best most amazing thing ever, with 97dB efficiency, vs speakers we sell that are 85-87dB efficiency, they literally use 1/10th the power that the speakers we sell use to achieve the same volume. And that means they will also distort with approximately 1/10th the power too. Excursion is excursion, no matter how little power it takes to get it to its limits. Being more efficient doesn't necessarily mean louder.

John
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post #116 of 127 Old 07-12-2008, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by carlm9 View Post

Soundood,
Are you telling me my (4) KS-7502-THX's in my ceiling are a mirage?

Yup, they are a complete fabrication in your mind! Actually, it does turn out there was a very small run released in a few markets and you got lucky to get some from that first batch. I didn't even get the notice of their existance from my rep until about 3 weeks ago. They are currently not available as they are in a new production run. Looks like they are going to be a seriously popular item. Glad to hear they are working out for you and that you, who actually own the system and have talked to a Klipsch engineer, have a positive experience with a larger amplifier. I agree on the "most completely designed system". As a system, it is awesome.

The other speakers, no experience with Dali. They are actually located in Bellingham, but never heard them. Don't like Aerials. On the Legacy...we definitely had different experiences. I used to be a Legacy dealer and tried for months on end to get the Focus 20/20's to sound right in our demo space. They were the most frustrating of all the Legacy products I had on hand and spent most of the time unhooked. Whispers were great as was the Marquis, had a set of both on display with the 20/20's and they were both great. But I just never got those Foci to sound right no matter what I did to them. Dropped the line after they got sold and they jacked the prices skyward.

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post #117 of 127 Old 07-12-2008, 11:16 AM
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Bill bought Legacy back a year or two ago. Look like they've been pretty well updated.

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post #118 of 127 Old 07-12-2008, 01:06 PM
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Well, I can tell you that Audyssey helped the sound of them a LOT whereas we get no such major improvements with higher fidelity speakers.

Audyssey helps anytime you have acoustic balance issues at the microphone. "Higher fidelity speakers" do NOT solve room problems or improper setups. Only acoustics and proper setup solve them. This shows me that they were set up incorrectly and there were room acoustics issues. Physics dictate the directivity of horns means less room interaction compared to a conventional speaker that sprays energy everywhere. This is why the Ultra 2 sounds better in a wider variety of rooms than most speakers. Bad room acoustics screw them up less by definition but bad acoustics are bad acoustics no matter what system is in there.

Yes, but they hold up on music and do this thing we call 'imaging'.
Okay, but they do this thing we call "impact" and "dynamics" which is far more important than some vague thing that usually isn't a true representation of what the actual sound event really was like. I was just at a big band concert last night and believe me, I wasn't sitting there thinking to myself that the drum kit sounded vague and diffuse and I couldn't tell if the drummer was 5 feet or 10 feet back from the horn section Instead, I was enjoying the impact and the feel of the drums, the bite of the horns and the dynamic swings. Real life dynamics is the thing that actually makes live music sound live, and that is an area where most consumer loudspeakers fall woefully short. It is also something which is incredibly important in creating a movie soundtrack properly. There is no "imaging" in a multi-channel theater soundtrack...instead there are huge dynamic swings, proper channel tracking and consistent channel to channel tonal balance, which the Ultra 2 system does far better than most other speakers mentioned in a custom theater install. Approaching a multi-channel system design strictly from an audiophile perspective is a mistake I made for a long time too.

Depends on the PSBs. The Platinums weren't my cup of tea either as they are too forward for my tastes, but the Synchronies absolutely kill any Klipsch speaker I've heard and are incredibly 'dynamic' and yet relaxed and smooth at the same time.

They were the Synchronies. Not impressed.

NHT's T5 and T6, unfortunately discontinued, were well beyond the quality of the Klipsch system for around half the price as well.


I know somebody who used to sell NHT and I had a chance to hear them twice. NHT at least tried to make a system that does what horns do...control the directivity by reducing the amount of output off center. Unfortunately, the inefficiency of the drivers worked against them and they just couldn't project dynamics. Funny thing is, you liked them yet they had the very same issue you complain about with the Ultra 2...the image remained inside the plane of the speakers (proving once again that imaging is as much a factor of room acoustics, phase errors and side wall bounce as it is actually information in the recording).


I think we just have different tastes. IMO, the Klipsch starts with a bad design, manages not to completely suck, but charges twice what it should cost. There's no high-end drivers or cabinets there or fancy wood finshes to make the speakers cost so much. It's just another example of why I think Klispsch is second only to Bose at being overpriced. Remember how Klipsch completely destroyed Mondial after buying the company, raising the prices, dropping the quality (literally dropping amp weights to almost 1/2 the original design) and basically putting them out of business?


Different tastes? Whatever gave you that impression! Mondial was in serious trouble before Klipsch came along. They were a 2 channel company in the period where everybody was transitioning to home theater. I give Klipsch credit for trying to make a go of it and the original Mondial guys for knowing when to get out. As for the Bose comment...please.

My perception is that the Klipsch uses very expensive horn compression drivers modeled on expensive commercial cinema drivers (I have the price list, trust me, they are not cheap). They are oversized way beyond most normal home speakers which explains why they are capable of such huge amounts of output. The woofers are also likewise ridiculously overbuilt and expensive to be able to meet Ultra 2 specs. The cabinet is plain for a very good reason, it is designed to blend in and be hidden in a custom home theater. No reason to spend on some fancy wood when it will be hidden anyways behind a screen. Build quality wise, pick one up. They are bricks as anybody who has had to mount a quad of KL-525s up on a wall will attest. Also a good testimony...in the 4 years I've been selling them, I've had one in field failure...just one. It was a KW-120 subwoofer driver and the victim of an overzealous volume knob in a huge room. Not a single compression or midrange driver failure. Trust me, my clients aren't shy about cranking them up. Maybe it is because I put enough power to them

BUT, even if Klipsch were the best most amazing thing ever, with 97dB efficiency, vs speakers we sell that are 85-87dB efficiency, they literally use 1/10th the power that the speakers we sell use to achieve the same volume. And that means they will also distort with approximately 1/10th the power too. Excursion is excursion, no matter how little power it takes to get it to its limits. Being more efficient doesn't necessarily mean louder.

Being efficient doesn't mean the speakers can get louder, but the Ultra 2 system can because the system is designed for high output levels. That is part of being able to meet the rigid Ultra 2 spec. Fact is, the Klipsch, and most other really good theater speakers, will get louder. They don't compress where most speakers run into serious thermal and driver compression, blunting the dynamics swings. With a higher efficiency system, properly powered to an accepted dynamic standard, I know I can keep the speaker well in the lower distortion range at high dynamic peak levels. It is always within the SOA. No more having to deal with delicately engineered expensive tweeters that blow up after a few years of being constantly at the edge of the envelope (thank god!). No more having to hear from that client who bought Revel Ultima Gems from another dealer and is now on their 4th tweeter and what do I think about a different cable that will roll the top end off. There are limits obviously. This is why I only spec the Ultra 2 system up to about 6000 cubic ft. Above that, you need a system with higher dynamic headroom like the Danley Labs, in order to remain in the SOA and keep the dynamic headroom standard at the seats.

Hey, you are never going to like Klipsch. Heck, I didn't like Klipsch until I had a good amount of personal experience with the product and finally grasped the proper approach to them. You have a bad opinion of them based on a few experiences, no doubt. So be it. We have different opinions of what makes a system proper, that is obvious. Ultimately it is the customer who decides what is best for them. In my book, I can get them far closer the the theatrical experience and what I've heard in production facilities with the Ultra 2 system in a wider variety of spaces than any other speaker package I've ever sold. A quick scan of the forums will reveal a near universal happiness and a tremendous amount of enjoyment with the system and ultimately, that is what it is about. The owner and listener comments, universally positive reviews, acceptance in the industry and low numbers of used systems compared to the number sold show folks love them. Free country...you can disagree all day long but it won't change the fact that my clients and those who own the system continue to be happy.

Amplifier wise. Most of my installs are in larger, acoustically treated spaces. My demo spaces are large. Perhaps that is why we notice the benefits. Again,as I stated before, people should TRY it and judge for themselves.

"Did you make 'em fine-ass-soundin' speakers over there what would sound gooder than hell comin' out of the back of my truck-boat-truck?"

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post #119 of 127 Old 07-12-2008, 01:16 PM
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Hopefully someone can answer my question since the topic is the Klipsch THX2 Ultra system. I am torn between the THX and the RF-83 HT (with the addition of 2 more RS-62s to make a 7.1) I don't have a dedicated HT room and use the main living room (20.5' X 22.5')for DVD/TV viewing. The room has a couple very large openings for access to the kitchen and foyer/hallways so its not a typical four closed-sided room.

My impression from reading several threads is that the THX system may not be right for my room since they appear to be more front firing, port speakers vs the RF-83 system with its WDST surrounds.

I'm assuming that the THX is not designed for a room like mine or was the system designed with different room settings in mind?

Would I be better off with the RF-83 HT system or would I be happier with the THX Ultra?

TIA
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post #120 of 127 Old 07-12-2008, 01:21 PM
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I saw Bill bought Legacy back. The guys who bought them didn't have a clue quite frankly. And if Bill happens to read this...why did you change the cool curved look of the Marquis? It looked so good with the Whispers! Oh well.

"Did you make 'em fine-ass-soundin' speakers over there what would sound gooder than hell comin' out of the back of my truck-boat-truck?"

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