Are my speakers "Large" or "Small"? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 404 Old 06-04-2007, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dbaldus View Post

So, I just got a new Harman Kardon AVR-247 and used the EZSet EQ to determine the size of my speakers. Here are my speakers:

Polk Rti70's in the front
Polk CS1 center
Polk R15's in the rear

It determined that the Rti70's and the CS1 are "Large" speakers and the R15s are "Small". Does that sound correct? I'm fairly certain that the Rti's should be "Large" since they handle low frequencies effeciently, but I was not sure about my CS1 center being "Large". It doesn't really seem to have much bass response.

Small. If they don't have big enough drivers (a couple of long-throw 10" bass drivers work well) to play flat to 20Hz @ 105dB SPL they're small. 2-way speakers with mid-woofers also suffer unacceptable IM distortion when bass is present with the mid-range.
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post #92 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 09:45 AM
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Ok guys, I gave up; I need some explanation.

Of courser I don't understand bass mang. but would be great if I could blend my system properly.
I have a NADT753, and Mirage FRX7 fronts, FRXCentre, FRX5 surr. and FRX8 sub. If I set my speakers to large, none goes to my sub, as my NAD does not have the option "both". So, in order to have my sub working I do have to set all to small.
If I set the crossover frequency to 80Hz, or 60Hz per se, can I set my speakers to small?
What's the difference between speakers set to large at crossover point 80Hz, or those set to small at crossover 80Hz?
Craig has said if we set the speakers to small, it will leave some power to the amplifier to help with music, I guess with difficult classical music parts. So, what should I do?

Help guys, please.

Mauro
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post #93 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 09:50 AM
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set all to small and play with crossover till you achieve the sound your looking for.
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post #94 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 11:46 AM
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Mauro,

bear in mind also that whatever XO settings you go for, you'll always be in the "safe side" by having all your speakers set to small and that means more dynamics & headroom, with less stress & heating on your AVR.
BTW, the opposite "is not" true, though.

Put it that way: imagine you're going for a marathon, right?
Would you better off performing in the long run, if:

a) you'd be running with a shirt, a short and a good pair of sneakers only, or

b) all the above, PLUS a 30lbs. back pack (full of stones).


You got 2 options to choose from...

Regards, Chuck
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post #95 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avliner View Post

Mauro,

bear in mind also that whatever XO settings you go for, you'll always be in the "safe side" by having all your speakers set to small

Is that always the case? If your speakers are better than your sub at the low stuff or if you have an extremely poor sub then aren't you better off running the speakers as large and let them try to make up for the subs inadequacies. I know this is not a common scenario and not one anyone would recommend getting yourself into. However, sometimes it just happens that way. You stretch yourself thin to get the good speakers that you want and then you don't have enough left for a decent sub. It is definitely not the ideal setup but sometimes you have to just work with what you got, right.
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post #96 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 01:02 PM
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Not always the case, as you said, but...

... considering that the vast majority of HT setups has a SW, then yes, I do consider as a rule of thumb to recommend setting all speakers to small, for the sake of the AVR / Speakers setup.

Even with a "mediocre SW" on your setup, I'd still be sending the heavy burden to it, rather than to the speakers. Second option ( and perhaps the best one), is to avoid using the crappy SW though, but that's me.

Two channel listening is a different department, though.

Regards, Chuck
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post #97 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauta1 View Post

Ok guys, I gave up; I need some explanation.

Of courser I don't understand bass mang. but would be great if I could blend my system properly.
I have a NADT753, and Mirage FRX7 fronts, FRXCentre, FRX5 surr. and FRX8 sub. If I set my speakers to large, none goes to my sub, as my NAD does not have the option "both". So, in order to have my sub working I do have to set all to small.
If I set the crossover frequency to 80Hz, or 60Hz per se, can I set my speakers to small?
What's the difference between speakers set to large at crossover point 80Hz, or those set to small at crossover 80Hz?
Craig has said if we set the speakers to small, it will leave some power to the amplifier to help with music, I guess with difficult classical music parts. So, what should I do?

Help guys, please.

Mauro


Small and large is not an ego thing (or is it?).

Large means no crossover is used in the receiver for that speaker group.

Small means a crossover to the subwoofer is used, and the crossover point is the frequency (AKA 50 or 60 or 80 or 100 Hz, etc.) that you crossover from the "small speaker" to the subwoofer.

If you set your R & L mains to large, and the center and surround to small, the NAD manual indicates that small speaker bass below the crossover can be sent to both the subwoofer and the large speakers, with LFE being only sent the the subwoofer. Read your manual for the details.

Your NAD instruction book also indicates that you can use different speaker size settings with the preset option. Preset 1 could be a certain speaker size setup, and preset 2 could be different.


An option that everyone has available to use is to connect the R & L preamp output of the receiver to the subwoofer amplifier inputs. Then you use the subwoofer amplifier's LP filter to blend with the low end of your main speakers (AKA set the subwoofer LP filter to around 50 Hz). You may need a subwoofer amplifier that has a continuously variable phase adjustment to get it perfect, but a polarity switch (1 or 180 setting) may be close enough for a good blend.


Hope that helps a bit.
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post #98 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 05:13 PM
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In what circumstances would setting the speakers to large be dangerous? I've been wrestling with the idea for quite a while, since I'm probably one of the few who have chosen not to bother with a subwoofer in my system.

It seems that one particular danger is less headroom, but I have a 260 watt amp paired with Beta 50s (35Hz F3), so I feel safe in that area. But I am still worried that deep bass has the possibility to overdrive my woofers, and to extend their excursion beyond the limit. How real is this?

Should I just run my speakers with a 40Hz crossover?
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post #99 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avliner View Post

................................. you'll always be in the "safe side" by having all your speakers set to small and that means more dynamics & headroom, with less stress & heating on your AVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megalith View Post

In what circumstances would setting the speakers to large be dangerous?

None. There's nothing "dangerous" about running your speakers as LARGE. A pair of speakers is made to be run without a receiver's digital crossover, full-range, in a 2-channel stereo system. All speakers have a natural roll-off at a particular frequency, and when sent a signal below that frequency, they don't explode, they simply don't reproduce those frequencies.

Yes, you gain headroom by running your speakers as SMALL, and it is less stressful on your amplifiers and on your speakers, but the amplifiers, too, were made to drive full-range speakers. Used properly, there is no "danger" to the amplifiers when used to drive a pair of speakers full-range.

Of course, yes, there are also benefits in clarity, both at the amplifier stage and at the speaker end of things, that are gained by running speakers as SMALL.

But a little common sense is all that is necessary to keep from blowing your speakers, whether they're set to LARGE or SMALL. A tweeter (or woofer, for that matter) can be blown by running your amplifiers or speakers beyond their capability, no matter the size setting.

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Originally Posted by Megalith View Post

But I am still worried that deep bass has the possibility to overdrive my woofers, and to extend their excursion beyond the limit. How real is this?

Not very real, as I described above. Speakers were designed to be run full-range. Are you more likely to blow a woofer when overdriving the speakers when they're set to LARGE instead of SMALL? Probably, but again, of course, everything has a limit. If you use some common sense then you no more stand to blow a driver (woofer or tweeter) with the speakers set to LARGE than you do when they're set to SMALL.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #100 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post

If your speakers are better than your sub at the low stuff or if you have an extremely poor sub then aren't you better off running the speakers as large and let them try to make up for the subs inadequacies?

If that's truly the case, and you think you're making up for the sub's inadequacies by running your fronts as LARGE, your best bet would probably be unplugging the SW altogether.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #101 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 05:42 PM
 
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Not very real, as I described above. Speakers were designed to be run full-range. Are you more likely to blow a woofer when overdriving the speakers when they're set to LARGE instead of SMALL? Probably, but again, of course, everything has a limit. If you use some common sense then you no more stand to blow a driver with the speakers set as LARGE than you do when they're set to SMALL.

Huh? Nonsense.

If you set the speakers large and feed the LFE to the mains and attempt to listen near reference level, your mains are going to be attempting to reproduce that bass which can be extremely potent and very deep. If you're listening at reference level, you can be pushing up to 120db of bass through there if you consider the 105db of mains and 115 of LFE capability. And with a lot of the synth bass effects that really plumb the depths in many movies, you can very easily bottom out all but the most ridiculously capable speaker systems. Unless you had to install your front speakers with a forklift or a crane, it is unlikely that they're really going to be up to that task on their own.

You can very very easily bottom out the mains if you listen at volume and feed the LFE as well to them (it also depends on the mix).

Quote:


None. There's nothing "dangerous"about running your speakers as LARGE. A pair of speakers is made to be run without a crossover, full-range, in a 2-channel stereo system.

There certainly is. And they certainly aren't designed to be run at cinema reference levels and be able to keep pace with the bass requirements for that.
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post #102 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Huh? Nonsense.

If you set the speakers large and feed the LFE to the mains and attempt to listen near reference level, your mains are going to be attempting to reproduce that bass which can be extremely potent and very deep. If you're listening at reference level, you can be pushing up to 120db of bass through there if you consider the 105db of mains and 115 of LFE capability. And with a lot of the synth bass effects that really plumb the depths in many movies, you can very easily bottom out all but the most ridiculously capable speaker systems. Unless you had to install your front speakers with a forklift or a crane, it is unlikely that they're really going to be up to that task on their own.

You can very very easily bottom out the mains if you listen at volume and feed the LFE as well to them (it also depends on the mix).



That's just not true. Read my post. Speakers don't explode when they're sent frequencies they can't reproduce. They don't "attempt" to reproduce that which they're not designed to reproduce. If you're driving speakers beyond their capabilities or if you're clipping your amps, you can blow your speakers, PERIOD.

Again, there's nothing inherently "dangerous" about running your speakers as LARGE, even if you ARE sending them the LFE channel, too. Do you stand a greater chance of overdriving the woofers if they're set to LARGE and they're getting the LFE channel, too? Of course, yes. But if you're driving your speakers that hard, you're not using common sense.

Obviously, you're not going to get reference level volume out of 2 small bookshelf speakers, but if you're running a 2-channel system (or 5.0 system, for that matter), with no sub, the correct way to set up these speakers in the reciever/pre/pro would be as LARGE and NO SUB, so that the LFE channel is routed to your front 2 speakers, regardless of their size.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #103 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 06:26 PM
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Hey guys,

when I mentioned ... " to be in the safe side"... I was thinking about protecting the speakers set from the "extra burden" that bass creates.
Matter of fact I don't think a speaker will explode, or whatever.

My bad anyway, so I apologize for any misundertandings that might have occurred.

Regards, Chuck
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post #104 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Wiggles View Post

If you set the speakers large and feed the LFE to the mains and attempt to listen near reference level, your mains are going to be attempting to reproduce that bass which can be extremely potent and very deep. If you're listening at reference level, you can be pushing up to 120db of bass through there if you consider the 105db of mains and 115 of LFE capability. And with a lot of the synth bass effects that really plumb the depths in many movies, you can very easily bottom out all but the most ridiculously capable speaker systems. Unless you had to install your front speakers with a forklift or a crane, it is unlikely that they're really going to be up to that task on their own.

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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

That's just not true. Read my post. Speakers don't explode when they're sent frequencies they can't reproduce. They don't "attempt" to reproduce that which they're not designed to reproduce. If you're driving speakers beyond their capabilities or if you're clipping your amps, you can blow your speakers, PERIOD.

Again, there's nothing inherently "dangerous" about running your speakers as LARGE, even if you ARE sending them the LFE channel, too. Do you stand a greater chance of overdriving the woofers if they're set to LARGE and they're getting the LFE channel, too? Of course, yes. But if you're driving your speakers that hard, you're not using common sense.

Obviously, you're not going to get reference level volume out of 2 small bookshelf speakers, but if you're running a 2-channel system (or 5.0 system, for that matter), with no sub, the correct way to set up these speakers in the reciever/pre/pro would be as LARGE and NO SUB, so that the LFE channel is routed to your front 2 speakers, regardless of their size.

You guys are talking about 2 different things. Chris is talking about "reference levels" and sivadselim is talking about "common sense". Common sense tells us that most speakers cannot reproduce "Reference Levels". There are very few speaker/amp combo's that can be run *safely* full-range at reference level. "Reference Level" is *very* loud. To reproduce it requires either very sensitive speakers or lots of amplifier power and lots of power handling and LF extension in the speakers. It certainly can't be accomplished with your "garden variety" 88 dB sensitivity speakers and 100 wpc.

Reference level is much easier (and safer) to acheive in a system where the speakers are set to "Small" than in a system where they are set to "Large". Everything is much more efficient. Amplifier power is allocated better and the speakers are kept within their optimal performance envelope. More importantly, the "Small" setting provides these benefits even at volume levels that are less than "Reference Level".

Craig

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post #105 of 404 Old 06-05-2007, 10:11 PM
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What is reference level? Is it a specific DB? I had always heard reference level was either 75 DB or 85 DB depending on what was playing. That doesn't seem to be that loud. I must be confused?
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post #106 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

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Not very real, as I described above. Speakers were designed to be run full-range. Are you more likely to blow a woofer when overdriving the speakers when they're set to LARGE instead of SMALL? Probably, but again, of course, everything has a limit. If you use some common sense then you no more stand to blow a driver with the speakers set as LARGE than you do when they're set to SMALL.



Huh? Nonsense.

If you set the speakers large and feed the LFE to the mains and attempt to listen near reference level, your mains are going to be attempting to reproduce that bass which can be extremely potent and very deep. If you're listening at reference level, you can be pushing up to 120db of bass through there if you consider the 105db of mains and 115 of LFE capability. And with a lot of the synth bass effects that really plumb the depths in many movies, you can very easily bottom out all but the most ridiculously capable speaker systems. Unless you had to install your front speakers with a forklift or a crane, it is unlikely that they're really going to be up to that task on their own.

You can very very easily bottom out the mains if you listen at volume and feed the LFE as well to them (it also depends on the mix).



You should research how LFE is mixed into the main speakers before you make inaccurate statements. There is no possible way to end up with 120 dB of signal coming out of each main speaker even if you chose to playback at "cinema levels". The vast majority of people do not have a formal "home theater" room that equates to a "cinema", nor do they playback at "cinema levels".

Also, you don't even take into consideration how hard you are driving the speakers in the first place (AKA SPL measured at 1 meter). Size of the room matters (AKA distance from speakers to listening position). Heck, I have been running LFE to my R & L mains for years and have never had a problem. Jeff "the Bland" has blown a center speaker by running it as small with 600 watts (or so) of power.

In addition, just what do you consider to be "reference level" playback? For example, the War of the Worlds DVD has two "reference levels", DD and DTS. DTS plays back at 8 dB higher in level than the DD version. Which home "reference level" equates to your "cinema level"?

Like Silvy said, common sense does enter into this!
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post #107 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post

What is reference level? Is it a specific DB? I had always heard reference level was either 75 DB or 85 DB depending on what was playing. That doesn't seem to be that loud. I must be confused?


Turn on you receiver's test tones, and set the master volume level so the SPL meter reads 75 dB. That is the place to leave your master volume if you want to playback at "reference level". Note the master volume number on your receiver, for that is "reference level".

Play an action DVD at that volume level and tell me it does not seem to be loud.

By the way, my system is not even capable of "reference level" playback. You would measure peaks of around 120 dB (or so) with an action DVD being played back at "reference level". My receiver's MV control is set to -23 dB for "reference level" playback. I playback DVD's at around -6 to -10 dB from that level (AKA -29 to -33 dB on MV). My system peaks out at around 115 dB, and that is loud enough for my ears!
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post #108 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You guys are talking about 2 different things. Chris is talking about "reference levels" and sivadselim is talking about "common sense". Common sense tells us that most speakers cannot reproduce "Reference Levels". There are very few speaker/amp combo's that can be run *safely* full-range at reference level. "Reference Level" is *very* loud. To reproduce it requires either very sensitive speakers or lots of amplifier power and lots of power handling and LF extension in the speakers. It certainly can't be accomplished with your "garden variety" 88 dB sensitivity speakers and 100 wpc.

Reference level is much easier (and safer) to acheive in a system where the speakers are set to "Small" than in a system where they are set to "Large". Everything is much more efficient. Amplifier power is allocated better and the speakers are kept within their optimal performance envelope. More importantly, the "Small" setting provides these benefits even at volume levels that are less than "Reference Level".

Craig


How many people ever playback at "reference level"?

Also, what is "reference level" playback? Is War of the Worlds DD version "reference level" playback, or is War of the Worlds DTS version "reference level" playback? DTS plays back at 8 dB higher in level than the DD version.

I can playback the DD version at "reference level" on my system, but not the DTS version!
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post #109 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I can playback the DD version at "reference level" on my system, but not the DTS version!

You probably could if you set your speakers to "Small".
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post #110 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 08:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post

What is reference level?

SMPTE RP155 encoding specifications are (-20dBFS = 0VU = +4dBu). DD mix surround monitors are calibrated 85dBSPL, LFE 95dBSPL per reference level -20dBFS.

"Unity" playback level would be transparent to the specs above. A given system would need at least 20dB headroom for potential +24dBu program peaks.

dts wisely IMO does not implement dialog normalization... combined with the unfortunate fact DD DN metadata usually has zero correlation to the actual weighted average program level DD (unity) calibration is pointless.
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post #111 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 09:36 AM
 
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Reference
0 dBu = .775V RMS
0 dBv = .775V RMS
0 dBV = 1V RMS

AES/SMPTE RP155
+4dBu = 1.23V RMS = 0VU
-10dBV = .316V RMS = 0VU

EBU/R68
-18dBFS = 0 DBu = .775V RMS
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post #112 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 09:39 AM
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"Reference Level" is *very* loud. To reproduce it requires either very sensitive speakers or lots of amplifier power and lots of power handling and LF extension in the speakers. It certainly can't be accomplished with your "garden variety" 88 dB sensitivity speakers and 100 wpc.

Reference level is much easier (and safer) to acheive in a system where the speakers are set to "Small" than in a system where they are set to "Large". Everything is much more efficient. Amplifier power is allocated better and the speakers are kept within their optimal performance envelope. More importantly, the "Small" setting provides these benefits even at volume levels that are less than "Reference Level".

I believe people need to be reminded of this more often as well as even when you have ENORMOUS amplifier reserves (which most people don't) and your speakers are set to "small" many speakers will still struggle to be able to output those kinds of peaks.

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post #113 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post



That's just not true. Read my post. Speakers don't explode when they're sent frequencies they can't reproduce. They don't "attempt" to reproduce that which they're not designed to reproduce.

They most certainly do. Where do you think those frequencies go? Unless the speaker has a highpass crossover for the bass driver (extremely unlikely) the driver gets everything down low, as it should.

Quote:


If you're driving speakers beyond their capabilities or if you're clipping your amps, you can blow your speakers, PERIOD.

Certainly. Setting the speakers large just increases the strain and will require you to lower the volume.

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Again, there's nothing inherently "dangerous" about running your speakers as LARGE, even if you ARE sending them the LFE channel, too. Do you stand a greater chance of overdriving the woofers if they're set to LARGE and they're getting the LFE channel, too? Of course, yes. But if you're driving your speakers that hard, you're not using common sense.

Certainly, if you have the volume very low the danger isn't there. The concern is that the amount of bass in many movie soundtracks is a lot greater and lower than the kind of bass you find in most music, and this poses an added difficulty if your system is trying to reproduce that without adequate bass capabilities.

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Obviously, you're not going to get reference level volume out of 2 small bookshelf speakers, but if you're running a 2-channel system (or 5.0 system, for that matter), with no sub, the correct way to set up these speakers in the reciever/pre/pro would be as LARGE and NO SUB, so that the LFE channel is routed to your front 2 speakers, regardless of their size.

Yes, just watch the volume, and depending you may want to do LARGE and YES Sub so that you lose the LFE, but maintain the full range of all the main channels.
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post #114 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

They most certainly do. Where do you think those frequencies go? Unless the speaker has a highpass crossover for the bass driver (extremely unlikely) the driver gets everything down low, as it should.

You don't really understand how a speaker works, then, do you? A speaker with a low-end F3 of 60Hz for example, doesn't disintegrate when it's sent a 20Hz signal; it just doesn't reproduce that low a frequency with any audible output, if any at all.


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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Certainly. Setting the speakers large just increases the strain and will require you to lower the volume.

Certainly, if you have the volume very low the danger isn't there. The concern is that the amount of bass in many movie soundtracks is a lot greater and lower than the kind of bass you find in most music, and this poses an added difficulty if your system is trying to reproduce that without adequate bass capabilities.

Setting the receiver up as having NO SUB re-routes the LFE to the LARGE front speakers and it re-routes it at the appropriate level. What is so hard to understand about this? I have never seen a receiver/pre/pro that doesn't do this properly. The speakers will reproduce what they can, and the rest is lost. Most all speakers, no matter their actual low-end capabilities, were made to be sent a full-range signal, in a simple 2-channel setup. This means a full-range signal, from 20Hz or so on up. This is how they are designed.



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...................and depending you may want to do LARGE and YES Sub so that you lose the LFE, but maintain the full range of all the main channels.

Malarkey! Show me a receiver/pre/pro's manual that recommends this. You don't want to "lose" the LFE, no matter what the low-end capabilities of the speakers are. They'll reproduce what they can. That's your embellishment and is absolutely unnecessary, for all the reasons I discussed above. What this recommendation will do, actually, is give someone a false sense of security and they WILL end up driving their front speakers too hard.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Yes, just watch the volume, and depending you may want to do LARGE and YES Sub so that you lose the LFE, but maintain the full range of all the main channels.

What?


Hmm.. btw sivadselim, I hope the high frequency content does not exceed my tweeters capabilities. Just to be "safe" I think everyone should just listen to midtones only..wouldn't want to damage my monitors
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post #116 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

You don't really understand how a speaker works, then, do you? A speaker with a low-end F3 of 60Hz for example, doesn't disintegrate when it's sent a 20Hz signal; it just doesn't reproduce that low a frequency with any audible output, if any at all.

It won't succeed, but it will certainly try to. And if you have a ported speaker, which most speakers are, the driver is likely going to be well below the port tune and is going to be swinging basically completely freely and you are VERY likely to bottom out a driver if you listen at volume like this with significant amounts of frequencies well below the port tune.

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Setting the receiver up as having NO SUB re-routes the LFE to the LARGE front speakers and it re-routes it at the appropriate level. What is so hard to understand about this? I have never seen a receiver/pre/pro that doesn't do this properly. The speakers will reproduce what they can, and the rest is lost. Most all speakers, no matter their actual low-end capabilities, were made to be sent a full-range signal, in a simple 2-channel setup. This means a full-range signal, from 20Hz or so on up. This is how they are designed.

Certainly. But they weren't designed to pump out 120db at 20hz. And most were not designed to really be capable of doing much at all down that deep.

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Malarkey! Show me a receiver/pre/pro's manual that recommends this. You don't want to "lose" the LFE, no matter what the low-end capabilities of the speakers are. They'll reproduce what they can. That's your embellishment and is absolutely unnecessary, for all the reasons I discussed above. What this recommendation will do, actually, is give someone a false sense of security and they WILL end up driving their front speakers too hard.

It's a valid suggestion and I stand by it. Pretty much every single Dolby decoder that exists does exactly this if you downmix to stereo, and many will if you downmix at all. Losing the LFE is not a big deal in a system which is never going to be able to reproduce it well if at all. Obviously I advocate a proper system with adequate bass capabilities to cover the main channels as well as the LFE, but in the absence of this capability, ditching the LFE may be a smart move, especially if you like to listen at volume.
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post #117 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

"Reference Level" is *very* loud. To reproduce it requires either very sensitive speakers or lots of amplifier power and lots of power handling and LF extension in the speakers. It certainly can't be accomplished with your "garden variety" 88 dB sensitivity speakers and 100 wpc.
Craig

It would take one heck of a monster amp to get my 84 Db sensitivity ERA speakers to reference level then! I guess my 100 watt Rotel amp just isn't going to cut it.
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

But they weren't designed to pump out 120db at 20hz.

Of course they weren't. And, of course, they won't. No one would try nor expect to get 20Hz at 120dB out of a pair of small speakers.



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And most were not designed to really be capable of doing much at all down that deep.

No, they weren't, so they won't. But I've heard some small bookshelves (and I'm sure you have too) pump out some pretty high volumes with ease.



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Pretty much every single Dolby decoder that exists does exactly this if you downmix to stereo, and many will if you downmix at all.

You're wrong. Every receiver/pre/pro that I have ever seen re-routes the LFE properly, to the front channels, if set up in simple 2-channel mode. And DVDs that do have dedicated 2-channel tracks, that don't require downmixing, have been engineered properly, with the LFE effects info at the proper level in those 2 stereo channels.



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It's a valid suggestion and I stand by it.
..............ditching the LFE may be a smart move, especially if you like to listen at volume.

It's not a valid suggestion. It's absolutely unnecessary. The owner's manuals for these receiver/pre/pros NEVER mention doing that nor do they even warn against high volumes if the LFE is being re-routed to LARGE fronts. Again, most people are going to use common sense in the same exact way that they would if listening simply to a 2-channel music source "full-range" through LARGE fronts.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #119 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 02:57 PM
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Thank you all for this splendid time. Now, of course, setting my Nad and Mirages to the best they can output.
Matter of fact, I do have my Nad T753 into three basic setups: stereo 2 ch large with no sub, all small, all large. Apart from the fact I listen music- classical -90% within stereo analog 2ch and no sub, I will now try to do some comparisons.
Well, as I said before, good, really good movies don't come with so deep effects etc. So, I couldn't care less. But music, gentlemen, MUST be as refined, natural and acoustic as it can.

I am going now to the show, here in Brasil, called Rio das Ostras Blues and Jazz festival, where I will see some of my old friends from my time spent at the USA, which I miss so much.

Let you know later...

Mauro
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post #120 of 404 Old 06-06-2007, 03:34 PM
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It would take one heck of a monster amp to get my 84 Db sensitivity ERA speakers to reference level then! I guess my 100 watt Rotel amp just isn't going to cut it.


Your ERA 4 speakers have a maximum power rating of 150 watts. That means that they will not playback at "reference level" even if you keep increasing power above that 150 watt power level.
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