Audio Physic Owner's Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 81 Old 02-04-2011, 06:54 PM
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daren-p: "Wow, looks like you've had a good amount of experience with tweeking? One of my LF X overs on my Scorpio's managed to get damaged in shipping, so I had it out & replaced it with a new one. After looking at some of the tolerances, such as the resistors, it had me wondering if some of the components could be replaced to "better grade" to improve the sound. But I wouldn't know where to start as far as selecting "better" replacement components & which ones "should" be replaced. I would imagine it would be more beneficial to look at the MF/HF xover vs the LF. I don't think I'd like to go as far as changing component values as I'm not experienced enough to change crossover values, etc but is it worthwhile to "upgrade" some components with same value replacements?

On the other hand, by selecting what should be a better quality component, isn't there still a chance that the speaker may not sound as good?

Also curious what type of Audio Quest wire you used for the re-wire & did you notice any changes? My Scorpio's are wired with 16awg Wireworld flat wire. My replacement Xover came with what looked like your typical "cheap", basic speaker wire, so I removed it & used the Wireworld cable that the origional Xover had on it to keep things consistant throughout."

On the bass x-over, leave it as is or toss it and actively filter and amp the bass. The latter requires a filter and 2 channels of amps, some IC and hi-gage, low-cost speakercable.

I used Audioquest Rocket88 cable. It uses 2 bundles of 2 pairs each, selected for great high- or low-frequency performance. AQ also has better cable of that type in their 'Flatrock' series. Mine too used that cheap flat, stranded speakercable for the bass and MR drivers and some coax for the tweeter.

I'd start upgrading the MR/treble x-over by replacing ALL the caps in series with the signal. In mine, that was a bunch. The biggest hassle, however, is getting to the x-over; mine was installed in the MR-driver cavity; I decided to move it outboard so I could work on it. Two things I did made the biggest changes. First was to replace the 2 caps in series with the tweeter with SoniCaps, 'propylenes and Teflons. Only then did I realize how gritty AND veiling the Clarity Caps sounded. The other was to remove the 2 banks of caps in series with the MR drivers. WOW what a difference that made! 'Clarity' my ass!

If you wanted to do these replacements gradually, start maybe with the 2nd tweeter cap, assuming your tweeter filter is 3rd-order...it may not be, in which case it'll have only 1 cap in series. I'd use a Sonic Craft Gen. 1 'propylene with a better, smaller cap in parallel. If you decide you don't want to spend the money for the Teflon-film Platinums, the MultiCap RTX 100-Volt 'styrenes would be good. Don't worry too much about cap values; all of this stuff is plus-or-minus-10% tolerance. But I think the 1st time you change a part on the x-over board, you'll wish it were outside.

Your new bass x-over was an original AP part or something else?

BTW I'm still evolving on poweramps. I used the 12-Watt-mono-SET Music Reference EM7-12s for months, but the not-enough-power bug finally bit hard enough that I tried a pair of old Marantz model M-22 75-into-4 monoamps.


I've improved parts in them, too, and the system sounds quite good, but...I guess I need vacuumtubes in my system, as I've ordered a pair of Monarchy Audio's hybrid amps, the SE-160s. They use a 12AT7 in the frontend and many pairs of MOSFET output transistors in the output, are biased class-A to about 50 Watts, and have no negative feedback, global or local. We'll hear what we hear.

Tin-eared audiofool, videot, Classical-music lover, and terrible competitive pistol shootist.

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post #62 of 81 Old 02-08-2011, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post

On the bass x-over, leave it as is or toss it and actively filter and amp the bass. The latter requires a filter and 2 channels of amps, some IC and hi-gage, low-cost speakercable.

I used Audioquest Rocket88 cable. It uses 2 bundles of 2 pairs each, selected for great high- or low-frequency performance. AQ also has better cable of that type in their 'Flatrock' series. Mine too used that cheap flat, stranded speakercable for the bass and MR drivers and some coax for the tweeter.

I'd start upgrading the MR/treble x-over by replacing ALL the caps in series with the signal. In mine, that was a bunch. The biggest hassle, however, is getting to the x-over; mine was installed in the MR-driver cavity; I decided to move it outboard so I could work on it. Two things I did made the biggest changes. First was to replace the 2 caps in series with the tweeter with SoniCaps, 'propylenes and Teflons. Only then did I realize how gritty AND veiling the Clarity Caps sounded. The other was to remove the 2 banks of caps in series with the MR drivers. WOW what a difference that made! 'Clarity' my ass!

If you wanted to do these replacements gradually, start maybe with the 2nd tweeter cap, assuming your tweeter filter is 3rd-order...it may not be, in which case it'll have only 1 cap in series. I'd use a Sonic Craft Gen. 1 'propylene with a better, smaller cap in parallel. If you decide you don't want to spend the money for the Teflon-film Platinums, the MultiCap RTX 100-Volt 'styrenes would be good. Don't worry too much about cap values; all of this stuff is plus-or-minus-10% tolerance. But I think the 1st time you change a part on the x-over board, you'll wish it were outside.

Your new bass x-over was an original AP part or something else?

Thanks for the reply/info Jeff, do you happen to have any pics showing the Audioquest wiring? Was just trying to figure out exactly how you connected them, being their multi conductor cable & sounds like your using more then one run to a driver?

I'm using a bunch of Audioquests cables in my setup (also a mix with some Tara Labs), so know of their product & have been happy with their performance.

The replacement LF x over is an Audio Physic unit, ordered direct. My HF/MR x over is installed in the MR/tweer cabinet as well (took a peak when I got the speakers). If I'm following you your saying if there's two cap in series with the tweeter use the Sonicap Gen 1 on the second cap & then install a platinum in parallel with that? Is that adding the better platinum cap in parallel replacing a cap thats already in parallel from the stock configuration or is that adding an additional cap? If its adding an additional cap, what are the benefits of doing this vs the stock configuration? Also curious as to why not the platinum cap (which sounds like its the better cap) for the replacement of the cap thats in series?

I mostly listen to what I would consider "new rock" music. I know thats probably not the best music choice to show all the strenghts of these speakers but its what I like Some of the artists I listen to are fairly instrumental & on better recordings you can really hear the benefits of these speakers. On the other hand, their are some recordings I listen too that aren't so great. With listening to this type of music, is it still a good idea to think about higher grade xover components? Or will it just allow me to hear alot more things that I don't necessarly want to hear?
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post #63 of 81 Old 02-08-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daren_p View Post

Thanks for the reply/info Jeff, do you happen to have any pics showing the Audioquest wiring? Was just trying to figure out exactly how you connected them, being their multiconductor cable & sounds like you're using more than one run to a driver?

Buy the Rocket 88 without braid so you can zip it apart more easily. I can get you some if you otherwise can't find it. Also, decide where the MR/treble x-over is going to live; mine's on the floor behind the speaker. Then...run only the treble half of the cable to the tweeter, run only the 'bass' half of the cable to the lower-MR driver, and run another full (double) run to the MR driver. This assumes your AP has 2 MR drivers and it's NOT an MTM configuration.

I'm using a bunch of Audioquests cables in my setup (also a mix with some Tara Labs), so know of their product & have been happy with their performance.

The replacement LF x over is an Audio Physic unit, ordered direct. My HF/MR x over is installed in the MR/tweeter cabinet as well (took a peak when I got the speakers). If I'm following you you're saying if there are two caps in series with the tweeter & use the Sonicap Gen 1 on the second cap & then install a platinum in parallel with that? Yes for BOTH of the tweeter caps, but start with one if you want.

Is that adding the better Platinum cap in parallel replacing a cap that's already in parallel from the stock configuration NO

or is that adding an additional cap? Yes.

If it's adding an additional cap, what are the benefits of doing this vs the stock configuration? When paralleling caps with better ones, one gets some of the benefits of the better cap without spending the money for a much-larger better cap.
Also curious as to why not the platinum cap (which sounds like it's the better cap) for the replacement of the cap that's in series? The Platinums are very expensive and not made in large values. See http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap_platinum.htm

I mostly listen to what I would consider "new rock" music. I know that's probably not the best music choice to show all the strengths of these speakers but its what I like Some of the artists I listen to are fairly instrumental & on better recordings you can really hear the benefits of these speakers. On the other hand, their are some recordings I listen to that aren't so great. With listening to this type of music, is it still a good idea to think about higher grade x-over components? Or will it just allow me to hear alot more things that I don't necessarly want to hear? Only you can anser that one. Lots of reviewers of hi-end stuff like rock, so why not hear it thru better-sounding equipment?

Do you believe you can trace and draw a schematic diagram of the MR/tweeter x-over?

Tin-eared audiofool, videot, Classical-music lover, and terrible competitive pistol shootist.

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post #64 of 81 Old 02-09-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffreybehr View Post

Do you believe you can trace and draw a schematic diagram of the MR/tweeter x-over?

Thanks for all that info Jeffry, that helps to make things clearer. Looks like the MR/Tweeter x over is more complicated then the LF x over but I'm sure I could figure something out to send off to you.

My Scorpio's are a 3.5 way system as well with dual MR drivers. Believe the lower MR driver is 150-500hz, while the upper is 150-2.8KHz. So it sounds like you'd recommend wiring up only the bass portion to the lower MR driver & a complete (treable & bass) run to the upper driver? I'm curios as to why you didn't us the same type of run to both MR drivers? (& what made you choose that perticular run type?).

If your MR x over is mounted out of the speaker now, do you no longer have any input wire to the crossover?

I did find Soniccraft for the Sonicaps & found the Platinum version but must have just looked at the first few lines @ ~$25 a piece. I went back after you mentioned price & then saw how some of the larger values are $400 a piece. I can see that would get abit expensive depending on what values are needed.
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post #65 of 81 Old 02-11-2011, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by daren_p View Post
Thanks for all that info Jeffry, that helps to make things clearer. Looks like the MR/Tweeter x over is more complicated then the LF x over but I'm sure I could figure something out to send off to you.

My Scorpio's are a 3.5 way system as well with dual MR drivers. Believe the lower MR driver is 150-500hz, while the upper is 150-2.8KHz. Just like my Avanti IIIs but my HP filter point was 200Hz.

So it sounds as if you'd recommend wiring only the bass portion to the lower-MR driver & a complete (treble & bass) run to the upper driver? Yes.

I'm curious as to why you didn't us the same type of run to both MR drivers? (& what made you choose that perticular run type?). The cable sections are optimized (on a mix of cost and quality) for lower frequecies and upper frequencies, and it simply wastes your money to include the hi-frequency bundle to the driver that carries no high frequencies. Same but reversed for the tweeter. So if you decide you need, say, 6' of cable from outboard x-over to tweeter, using full (double-section) cable would require 18', but spitting one requires only 12' of cable. And I can get you higher-quality AQ cable too at below retail and in bulk; the next-up AQ cable I recommend is Gibraltar.

If your MR x-over is mounted out of the speaker now, do you no longer have any input wire to the crossover? I have none of that low- and medium-quality wire that AP used. The new speakercable runs from the spadelugs at the amp, 'thru' the outboard x-over, and to the drivers.

I did find Soniccraft for the Sonicaps & found the Platinum version but must have just looked at the first few lines @ ~$25 a piece. I went back after you mentioned price & then saw how some of the larger values are $400 a piece. I can see that would get a bit expensive depending on what values are needed. Yup, and my systems use two-each 6.8s and 3s!
One of the things I decided to do early was to move the high-pass filterpoint of the MR drivers down to increase the warmth of the system and use more of the frequency range of those excellent MR drivers. I had tubed amps in which I could easily change a couplingcap to create a active filter for the bottom of the MR, which I did, and I then REMOVED the 2 banks of inexpensive plastic-film caps that AP used. My MR drivers now run down to c. 80Hz, about the bottom of their physical ability, and the increase in sound quality amazed me. Without getting into amps, you could achieve some of that by adding a great-sounding cap in parallel with the 2 sets of MR-hi-pass caps on the board, but of course you have to identify those caps which means finishing that schematic. On my board, the 2 banks of MR-hi-pass caps are the 3 blue and 1 white caps (3 15s plus a 10 totaling 55uF) at the bottom of the board in this pic.

In this pic, the treble section is on the left, MR in the center, and lower-MR on the right.

This is the board in progress; notice the blue and the white caps are missing.


WARNING--do not lower the filterpoint of the MR drivers if you listen to music at HIGH levels, as you could overdrive and damage the MR drivers. If you choose to move the filterpoint(s) down, you could do it in stages, adding more capacitance to only the lower-MR driver and not the MR driver. I recommend a BlackGate AC-series cap, 47uF, from Michael Percy.
http://percyaudio.com/
BlackGates are VERY-hi-quality caps and are out of production; if increasing the lower-MR/upper-bass output of the system sounds like something you'd like, contact Percy soon, as I imagine those 47s will be gone soon. (I have one new one available.) If you end up not using them, as long as you don't solder to them, you could easily sell them.

I know this is a lot do think about, but doing all this stuff to my Avantis has increased the quality of their sounds a lot. For instance, I didn't know treble could sound so good, and it's no wonder to me now that for all my previous systems I had to pad the treble down considerably to make the systems listenable.

Tin-eared audiofool, videot, Classical-music lover, and terrible competitive pistol shootist.

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post #66 of 81 Old 02-13-2011, 01:24 PM
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Daren, more thoughts on moving the MR-LP-filterpoint down.

Again, start with the LMR driver and add in parallel a 47/250 Solen that's only $16.50 from Michael Percy. The LMR driver probably won't reproduce the edginess that's inherent to the Solens (and especially the 250s), so that'll cost only $33 for the 2 speakers. While you're ordering from Percy, buy a couple Axon 33/250s for $24 total and replace the 33uF (or whatever the value is) 'lytic cap that's in the LMR section. 'Lytic caps sound bad in MR sections even if they're in shunt.

But I still think you should start by outboarding the MR/treble x-overs and rewiring the speaker.

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post #67 of 81 Old 02-23-2011, 09:53 AM
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Finally finished fooling around with the crossovers.





The wood is poplar, and I should have started staining with WATCO Black Walnut instead of Light Walnut. They now have many coats of WATCO Dark Walnut and WATCO Cherry. Without the cherry stain, the color was a bit yellowish.

The new amps are Monarchy Audio SE-160s--hybrid, class-A to 50 Watts, MOSFET output stage, NO negative FB, 320 into 4, made in USA. Initial impressions are positive , but they're only 2 days old.

Tin-eared audiofool, videot, Classical-music lover, and terrible competitive pistol shootist.

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post #68 of 81 Old 03-14-2011, 09:05 AM
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Jeffrey, just wanted to thank you again for all the input/info. Currently I have too many things on the go with other hobbies & home reno's but I'd defently like to "play" with my Scorpio's in the future. If you don't mind, I'll probably need to pick your brain for more info at that time
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post #69 of 81 Old 04-03-2011, 03:53 PM
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YW.

As my system gets better in all aspects, of course I'm more able to hear the weak areas, and after achieving what I believe is 5-star quality with the A-IIIs' MR, I'm now hearing the less-than-excellent treble. With so many excellent-sounding speakersystems around, the A-III's 12-year-old tweeter is showing its age.

I've been fantasizing about replacing the tweeters, but so many perhaps-more-experienced DIYists tell me I'd be lucky to actually achieve better-sounding treble, so I put it off. Finally I decided to try a pair of tweeters I had some experience with years ago but I guess forgot how good they had sounded. Yesterday I borrowed my buddy's loose pair of B-G Neo3PDRs and clipped and taped them into/on the Avantis.



They almost fit within the 104mm-diameter recess, and they match very well with the Avanti's 3rd-order treble filter...at least as much as I can tell with my Phonic PAA2 3rd-octave RTA.

They sound definitely better--for instance massed violins have significantly less coarseness--so I'll be buying and modifying slightly a pair so they do fit into the recess. Another diffractionbegone.com antidiffraction pad and I'm finished without touching the crossover! AND...it can be easily returned to original when I finally find an affordable pair of Vandersteen 5As.

-------------------------------

04 April.
Today I ground* the lower corners to a larger radius and permanently mounted them, this time with black tape.

Remounted the antidiffraction pads (which I did NOT have to cut) and I'm finished with my improving-the-Avantis'-treble project but for the leveling resistors.



* AFTER sealing the driver carefully.

----------------------------------

16 April 2011. Decided to screw the new tweeters in/on.
'

The new tweeter still sound great. I'm THRILLED with the improvement $115 of tweeters and a halfhour made.

Tin-eared audiofool, videot, Classical-music lover, and terrible competitive pistol shootist.

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post #70 of 81 Old 04-07-2011, 01:28 PM
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I'm very curious about the results after improving your Avantis...Yoy have done a great deal of tweaking...


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post #71 of 81 Old 04-09-2011, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by panos_adgr View Post

I'm very curious about the results after improving your Avantis...You have done a great deal of tweaking...

TY, panos. I'm VERY pleased with the results of my tweaking. As I've written, buying the Avantis last summer allowed me to hear just how good my system sounded, and improving them and many other aspects of my already-good-sounding system has gotten the sound to a significantly higher level that's VERY pleasing.

The changes to the Avantis have mostly to do with eliminating grunge, softness, and edginess, hence increasing transparency. Eliminating or replacing ALL the capacitors in series with the signal caused most of this increase in quality. Improving the wiring also helped. Replacing the tweeters significantly reduced the slight coarseness of the treble and, again, increased transparency.

And by 'transparency' I mean the ability to 'see' into the orchestra...to hear more low-level information and also to help the speakers NOT draw attention to themselves and hence disappear better. The sounds from the best multichannel SACDs are astoundingly good.

Tin-eared audiofool, videot, Classical-music lover, and terrible competitive pistol shootist.

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post #72 of 81 Old 04-26-2011, 12:52 PM
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Weii done! I wish i knew some staf on how to tweak a device. I think it's a great dael to know how to improve something and gain ''profit'' from doing it in performance...


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post #73 of 81 Old 04-02-2012, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Well ... i switched from Surround back to Stereo !
My Sparks/Steps/Celsius are moving to a dedicated surround room and my livingroom "upgraded" to a new pair of .... of course .... Audio Physic speakers

A rarely seen Audio Physics Brilon 2.0 monitor speakers (Virgo with Avanti units) with a Audio Physic Luna I subwoofer driven by a Cayin A55T tube-amp sounds fantastic.









It's amazing how a compact monitor speaker can sound this big.

The following video is just an test environment on my workroom to see if everythings works before i installed it in my livingroom.
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post #74 of 81 Old 04-02-2012, 09:21 AM
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Looks great!!! Congratulations!
What are driving them with?
Nothing like the warm Audio Physics sound
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post #75 of 81 Old 04-02-2012, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks great!!! Congratulations!
What are driving them with?
Nothing like the warm Audio Physics sound

Thanks !
AP and Tubes
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post #76 of 81 Old 05-18-2012, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Short impression of Audio Physic on Tubes:



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post #77 of 81 Old 12-29-2012, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kingpin112 View Post

Well ... i switched from Surround back to Stereo !

My Sparks/Steps/Celsius are moving to a dedicated surround room and my livingroom "upgraded" to a new pair of .... of course .... Audio Physic speakers



A rarely seen Audio Physics Brilon 2.0 monitor speakers (Virgo with Avanti units) with a Audio Physic Luna I subwoofer driven by a Cayin A55T tube-amp sounds fantastic.














It's amazing how a compact monitor speaker can sound this big.


The following video is just an test environment on my workroom to see if everythings works before i installed it in my livingroom.

Very nice System. I' ve watched also the videow in youtube, before!

Audio Physics are very interesting with tubes.

Lately I bought myself also a tube amp to play my Scorpios.


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post #78 of 81 Old 10-12-2013, 03:00 PM
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Gents (and Ladies?),

I have an Audio Physic Virgo pair in Bird's Eye Maple originally purchased in 1997 for the then list price of $4,995 --> http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/147/index.html

They are still in excellent condition and continue to be in endearing use. Were I to sell these shipped in the original factory box what would you think to be a fair and appropriate price?

Thanks for your input,

Dave
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post #79 of 81 Old 11-10-2013, 02:14 AM
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Gents (and Ladies?),

I have an Audio Physic Virgo pair in Bird's Eye Maple originally purchased in 1997 for the then list price of $4,995 --> http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/147/index.html

They are still in excellent condition and continue to be in endearing use. Were I to sell these shipped in the original factory box what would you think to be a fair and appropriate price?

Thanks for your input,

Dave

You can search in google for similar Virgos that are sold to get some price examples out in the market.


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post #80 of 81 Old 04-20-2014, 11:42 PM
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I recently acquired an AP Luna subwoofer, looks like the same model you have pictured here (mine is SN: # 357) that is supposedly "irreparable." I'm not inclined to accept that this is so, although it may be expensive or difficult to find where the fault lies. Physically there appears to be nothing wrong, but I've done very limited testing. I have an electronics shop that's expressed a willingness to have a look at it, but would benefit from having a schematic or manual of some sort. You wouldn't happen to have anything on that Luna, would you? Or anyone else reading this? I'd really like to get this thing on the road to accompany my Magneplanars! Help is much appreciated. 

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post #81 of 81 Old 08-16-2014, 02:19 PM
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Audio Physic Luna repaired!

Well, I didn't exactly have an overwhelming show of support on my primary post, but I figured I'd let future great ions know that I was successful in repairing the Luna, and I couldn't be happier with the results. I'm still going through the process of tweaking the settings to work best with the combination of my old Magneplanars and my ever more "gated" hearing response.

In technical terms, I would say that the Luna kicks ass, and while I'm tempting to crank it, I remind myself that it's there to serve the music, and I rein it in. I'm eager to build or buy a high pass filter for the Mags so they don't have to bother with that lowest octave any more, but I can't seem to find the specs I need. Working on it.

Anyway, I can say that this sub, when properly configured, provides a natural sounding extension to the bottom end of my SMGa's (I told you they were old!). Very musical and satisfying.
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