Swan Owner's Thread - Page 52 - AVS Forum
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post #1531 of 3905 Old 10-31-2008, 01:39 PM
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Is there anywhere to audition Swan X.1 speakers in Utah?
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post #1532 of 3905 Old 10-31-2008, 02:23 PM
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wm_mongoose,

WOW...just WOW
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post #1533 of 3905 Old 10-31-2008, 04:29 PM
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A-rone, Trax audio is in Utah and they carry the Swans http://www.trax-audio.com/

appears they are in Clearfield, UT

"Without music life would be a mistake." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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post #1534 of 3905 Old 10-31-2008, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-Rone View Post

Thanks Steve for the information and I'll be sure to send an email to you for a more detailed comparison between my "X" series speaker your Swans. Does anyone have this same Swan (6.1, C3, 2.1 or R3) setup coupled with an MFW-15? I would love to know how they all sound together.

I have 5.1s, C3, R3s on the side, and R2s in the rear.....along with dual MFW-15s. Sounds awesome! It's generally not a problem to mix speaker brands and sub brands.

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post #1535 of 3905 Old 11-02-2008, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad T View Post

Got my R3 surrounds in today.

1. Awesome packing job as usual!

2. I've put off buying R3s until now at least partially because I've had trouble justifying the expense of the R3s when compared to the other Diva .1 speakers. Now that I have them in my house, I can say that their cost is justified. They are much larger/heavier than I thought they woud be. Truly a beautiful set of speakers!

3. I'm confused about the wiring/configuration of these R3s just like I was when I got my R2s. At some point, I'll probably open these up and have a look at the wiring and internal construction like I did with my R2s (click HERE for more info), but for now as I try to figure this out...
a) Both Oz and swanspeaker.com refer to these as dipole.
b) TAI refers to them as a "true" dipole.
c) I did a polarity check on the speakers and found that both drivers move in the same outward direction. This would indicate they are bipole, not dipole.
d) In post #327 of this thread, Jon recommended mounting speaker "A" to the left and speaker "B" to the right. Oriented mounting would indicate dipole.
e) I dug through the old archived Swan thread and there are references to these as being non-mirrored, adaptive dipolar, but that thread is old and things can change.

So I'm thoroughly confused!

But combing through that info, I'm gonna guess that they are adaptive dipolar, but I'm not sure if they are mirrored or not. If they are mirrored, that would have to mean that Swan changed their wiring at some point. If they aren't mirrored, then point 3d wouldn't make sense.

I finally got a chance to look into this further. I unscrewed the speakers in the R3 surround with the "A" serial number. What I found is that the wiring that connects to the terminals on all 4 speakers matches polarity. i.e. positive-to-positive and negative-to-negative on all 4 speakers.

But it gets interesting when looking at the crossover network. There are two crossovers inside:

1. One of the crossovers connects to the pair of woofers. On this crossover there are two sets of terminals.....one of the pos/neg terminals has a wire that leads to the input jack and it matches polarity. The other terminal connects to the woofers in parallel (i.e. one wire connects to the first woofer, then another wire goes from that speaker terminal to the other woofer).

2. The other crossover connects to the pair of tweeters. On this crossover there are again two sets of terminals......one of the pos/neg terminals has a wire that leads to the input jack and it matches polarity. Here's where it gets interesting: the other terminal on the crossover has a red mark (done with something like a Sharpie marker) over the negative terminal and a black mark over the positive terminal. So this reverses the polarity. But the crazy thing is that the tweeters are also wired in parallel so this means that both tweeters are out of phase with both woofers.

From what I understand, bipole speakers are wired with matching polarity on all 4 speakers. Dipole speakers are wired normal on one side and in reverse polarity on the other. i.e. this puts the woofer/tweeter combo on one side out of phase with the woofer/tweeter combo on the other side.

Then there are variations like adaptive dipole (AV123 does this with their RSS300 surrounds). This simply means that the rear facing tweeter is wired in reverse. That way the woofers are still in phase (so you don't lose the"oomph" that can happen when woofers are out of phase). Yet, you still get a somewhat diffuse soundfield from the tweeters being out of phase with each other.

I have never heard of having both tweeters wired in reverse polarity and both woofers wired normal. Unless this is some kind of unusual polar wiring variation exclusive to Swan, I'm beginning to wonder if my R3s are simply incorrectly wired.

Edit: BTW, I'm not upset or anything.....it's just the techie side of me trying to figure out what makes these speakers "tick", so I can best implement them into my setup. I've continued to search the net reading about dipole, bipole, etc. and haven't come across anything else that is wired this way. I'm mainly just looking for input to find out if this is normal or not, and if so, the science behind it.

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post #1536 of 3905 Old 11-02-2008, 07:44 PM
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For those who are interested......a pic can be worth a thousand words.....

This first pic is the left side of the speaker. That is the crossover that connects to the two tweeters.



This pic shows the other crossover that connects to the two woofers.


Have an Onkyo 805 receiver and having trouble setting up Audyssey? HERE is a mini how-to.Click HERE to check out my comparison review of 5 different projection screen fabrics.
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post #1537 of 3905 Old 11-02-2008, 08:05 PM
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^^^^
Chad....Forget the X-over, What kind of camera do you have that takes such ridiculously clear pictures???
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post #1538 of 3905 Old 11-02-2008, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonmax View Post

^^^^
Chad....Forget the X-over, What kind of camera do you have that takes such ridiculously clear pictures???

Canon A610.

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post #1539 of 3905 Old 11-03-2008, 08:46 AM
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Tyson and Chad - Thanks for the information.
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post #1540 of 3905 Old 11-03-2008, 11:09 AM
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I've got the 6.1s, 2.1s, C3, and my MFW finally arrived a couple weeks ago. I do a lot of gaming and movie watching, so adding the sub really made everything come together (though it sounded great prior) and the difference was night and day. I think there's a lot of room for improvement in my setup (living in an apartment and calibrating is my weakness) but everyone who's experienced my setup has been amazed.

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post #1541 of 3905 Old 11-04-2008, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad T View Post

I finally got a chance to look into this further. I unscrewed the speakers in the R3 surround with the "A" serial number. What I found is that the wiring that connects to the terminals on all 4 speakers matches polarity. i.e. positive-to-positive and negative-to-negative on all 4 speakers.

But it gets interesting when looking at the crossover network. There are two crossovers inside:

1. One of the crossovers connects to the pair of woofers. On this crossover there are two sets of terminals.....one of the pos/neg terminals has a wire that leads to the input jack and it matches polarity. The other terminal connects to the woofers in parallel (i.e. one wire connects to the first woofer, then another wire goes from that speaker terminal to the other woofer).

2. The other crossover connects to the pair of tweeters. On this crossover there are again two sets of terminals......one of the pos/neg terminals has a wire that leads to the input jack and it matches polarity. Here's where it gets interesting: the other terminal on the crossover has a red mark (done with something like a Sharpie marker) over the negative terminal and a black mark over the positive terminal. So this reverses the polarity. But the crazy thing is that the tweeters are also wired in parallel so this means that both tweeters are out of phase with both woofers.

From what I understand, bipole speakers are wired with matching polarity on all 4 speakers. Dipole speakers are wired normal on one side and in reverse polarity on the other. i.e. this puts the woofer/tweeter combo on one side out of phase with the woofer/tweeter combo on the other side.

Then there are variations like adaptive dipole (AV123 does this with their RSS300 surrounds). This simply means that the rear facing tweeter is wired in reverse. That way the woofers are still in phase (so you don't lose the"oomph" that can happen when woofers are out of phase). Yet, you still get a somewhat diffuse soundfield from the tweeters being out of phase with each other.

I have never heard of having both tweeters wired in reverse polarity and both woofers wired normal. Unless this is some kind of unusual polar wiring variation exclusive to Swan, I'm beginning to wonder if my R3s are simply incorrectly wired.

Edit: BTW, I'm not upset or anything.....it's just the techie side of me trying to figure out what makes these speakers "tick", so I can best implement them into my setup. I've continued to search the net reading about dipole, bipole, etc. and haven't come across anything else that is wired this way. I'm mainly just looking for input to find out if this is normal or not, and if so, the science behind it.

Didn't get much response to this, but for those who are interested, I had a fairly detailed/lengthy email conversation with Jon Lan @ TAI about this issue.

It appears that R3s being shipped in their current configuration (at least the ones I have), are actually bipole speakers. I find it interesting that these really don't adhere to "normal" bipole wiring methods in that both tweeters are reverse polarity wired and both woofers are normal polarity wired......putting each tweeter out of phase (strictly in a wiring sense) with its accompanying woofer.....on each side of the cabinet. But Jon informed that at times speaker engineers will do such things to obtain a desired acoustical outcome.

With that said, it appears that the Oz, TAI, & Swan sites all incorrectly state that the speakers are adaptive dipole, true dipole, & dipole respectively when that isn't the case.

You might want to keep this in mind so you could best implement R3s into your setup. Also, these surround speakers are especially unique in the shallow angle of the drivers. Even though they are bipole, they potentially could border on giving a monopole sound given the relatively flat front baffle.

As for me, I plan to leave them in their current "bipolar" configuration and see how I get along with them for a few days/weeks, then I'll probably convert them to adaptive dipole via reversing the wires on the rear facing tweeter of each speaker cabinet. Then I'll make a decision as to which works best in my setup.

Have an Onkyo 805 receiver and having trouble setting up Audyssey? HERE is a mini how-to.Click HERE to check out my comparison review of 5 different projection screen fabrics.
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post #1542 of 3905 Old 11-04-2008, 12:35 PM
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Also wanted to mention that a few weeks ago, I got asked via PM if I had converted my R2 rear surrounds to dipole. Here is the response I gave:

I did indeed do the modification and tried it out for a few days, but I ended up converting them back to their original, factory, bipolar wiring setup. The dipolar wiring did help reduce localization, but it also made them anemic/weak and also lead to some weird outcomes when I would run the Audyssey calibration on my Onkyo 805 receiver. Overall, I'm very pleased with the R2s and they are used as my back surrounds.

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post #1543 of 3905 Old 11-04-2008, 12:42 PM
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Wouldn't changing them from series to parallel or vice versa, change the impedance?

I'm willing to bet they were wired the best possible way. It doesn't make sense for a large company to not give any thought or testing to the wiring of a surround speaker. Only way I would change it is to switch from L to R if needed.

Good luck with
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post #1544 of 3905 Old 11-04-2008, 01:28 PM
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First post!

Spent many a day researching and reading this forumn. Decided today to jump on a pair of 6.1s and a C3 from OZ (by way of ebay)! I'll report back when they arrive

Unfortunately, they will be power by my ancient Kenwood 1060VR until I can recover enough to get a real modern HT receiver.

----------------------------
Samsung HL67A750 LED DLP
Marantz 7002
Swan Diva 6.1, C3 Fronts
Mirage Omni 150 Surrounds
ED a2-300
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post #1545 of 3905 Old 11-04-2008, 03:45 PM
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First post!

Spent many a day researching and reading this forumn. Decided today to jump on a pair of 6.1s and a C3 from OZ (by way of ebay)! I'll report back when they arrive

Unfortunately, they will be power by my ancient Kenwood 1060VR until I can recover enough to get a real modern HT receiver.

Welcome to the club. You picked a good one imo.
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post #1546 of 3905 Old 11-05-2008, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancisDemarte View Post

First post!

Spent many a day researching and reading this forumn. Decided today to jump on a pair of 6.1s and a C3 from OZ (by way of ebay)! I'll report back when they arrive

Unfortunately, they will be power by my ancient Kenwood 1060VR until I can recover enough to get a real modern HT receiver.

Hi Francis,

Thanks for the order - and great choice on the 6.1's! You should have already received an order confirmation from Kraig and tracking info should be sent automatically from FedEx this evening.

Enjoy your new speakers - and please don't hesitate to post or email once they arrive if you have any questions on setup, placement, break-in, etc. It's going to be a LONG couple days !

Steve Ozmai
OZ Home Theater, LLC
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post #1547 of 3905 Old 11-07-2008, 11:08 PM
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OK, I took the plunge today and ordered a Diva C3BC, using the live.com cashback. I wasn't ready to commit the funds to get the 6.1s yet. I figure the C3 will tell me what I need to know about the Swans sound.

The main issue for me and my wife is that we really have a hard time understanding dialog in movies. This might have something to do with being north of 50 years of age, but I figure it is worth a try to see if the Swan can outperform my current center speaker, which is a Paradigm cc570v.3. The Paradigm, although a pretty expensive speaker, seems to me to have that resonance or chestiness in the vocal range that is quite irritating and also contributes to lack of clarity, I think.

If the C3 wows, I may look at a pair of 6.1s.

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post #1548 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 06:24 AM
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OK, I took the plunge today and ordered a Diva C3BC, using the live.com cashback. I wasn't ready to commit the funds to get the 6.1s yet. I figure the C3 will tell me what I need to know about the Swans sound.

The main issue for me and my wife is that we really have a hard time understanding dialog in movies. This might have something to do with being north of 50 years of age, but I figure it is worth a try to see if the Swan can outperform my current center speaker, which is a Paradigm cc570v.3. The Paradigm, although a pretty expensive speaker, seems to me to have that resonance or chestiness in the vocal range that is quite irritating and also contributes to lack of clarity, I think.

If the C3 wows, I may look at a pair of 6.1s.

Welcome to the club. I'm not really familiar with that Paradigm but the dome midrange on the Swan should be a big improvement to what you want. I love the dome mid on my F2.2C. Your setup also has a lot to do with it. If you have tucked your center channel inside an entertainment center or have not set up the crossover correctly then that can cause what you are describing. Try putting the center in front of the TV on a stand and see if that helps. In other words put it where it can 'breath'. Also, go into your setup and change the crossover point for your center. I run mine kinda low but I don't have any issues with lower frequency. Make that number one step higher and then listen to see if you like it and keep going back and forth until you find what you like the best. A good DVD to test this is Lord of The Rings. The womans voice at the start is a good test of a center channel speaker IMO.

Again, welcome to the club. I think Swan smokes Paradigm dollar for dollar and you will be very happy. I'm not a professional so take my advise with a grain of salt. It's just what I would do.

Corey
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post #1549 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 07:05 AM
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Mtrot,

I think you'll be quite impresed, the c3 sounds pretty good right out of the box, but only gets better, I noticed them sounding alot better after about 125hours or so. It now will only be a matter of time before you get the 6.1s.

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post #1550 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wm_mongoose View Post

Welcome to the club. I'm not really familiar with that Paradigm but the dome midrange on the Swan should be a big improvement to what you want. I love the dome mid on my F2.2C. Your setup also has a lot to do with it. If you have tucked your center channel inside an entertainment center or have not set up the crossover correctly then that can cause what you are describing. Try putting the center in front of the TV on a stand and see if that helps. In other words put it where it can 'breath'. Also, go into your setup and change the crossover point for your center. I run mine kinda low but I don't have any issues with lower frequency. Make that number one step higher and then listen to see if you like it and keep going back and forth until you find what you like the best. A good DVD to test this is Lord of The Rings. The womans voice at the start is a good test of a center channel speaker IMO.

Again, welcome to the club. I think Swan smokes Paradigm dollar for dollar and you will be very happy. I'm not a professional so take my advise with a grain of salt. It's just what I would do.

Corey

Thanks for the tips! I currently set my crossover to 60hz for the center and surrounds. The surrounds are floorstanders, so I sometimes set them to "large" in the setup, so I guess the crossover doesn't come into play in that case.

I like to use as big a center speaker as I can afford, and set the center crossover as low as I can get away with, considering the center speaker's capabilities. I don't like the idea of having to set the crossover higher simply because the speaker has mid range resonance or honkiness. Hence my interest in giving the Swans a try.

The center speaker sits on top of my Mitsubishi 55613, which is one of the CRT RPTV type. Since it has to sit on top of the TV which is pretty high, I put something under the rear of the speaker to tilt the back up, resulting in the speaker pointing downward and directly at the listening position.

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post #1551 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 08:24 AM
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Thanks for the tips! I currently set my crossover to 60hz for the center and surrounds. The surrounds are floorstanders, so I sometimes set them to "large" in the setup, so I guess the crossover doesn't come into play in that case.

I like to use as big a center speaker as I can afford, and set the center crossover as low as I can get away with, considering the center speaker's capabilities. I don't like the idea of having to set the crossover higher simply because the speaker has mid range resonance or honkiness. Hence my interest in giving the Swans a try.

The center speaker sits on top of my Mitsubishi 55613, which is one of the CRT RPTV type. Since it has to sit on top of the TV which is pretty high, I put something under the rear of the speaker to tilt the back up, resulting in the speaker pointing downward and directly at the listening position.

I run mine at 60 but it's kinda low for a center. I would try making it higher and see if you like it. Most ppl run them at 80-120. Also, try to get a nice air gap under your center somehow and see if it isn't your tv that is resonating. It's amazing how much a difference a front center stand made for me. I would at least try it but YMMV. It sounds like you have the right idea and you know what your talking about. Just keep trying new things and I'm sure you will find what your looking for.
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post #1552 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 10:00 AM
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Hey guys, just checking in again, hope everyone is doing well.

Got the surround sound hung in the new house a couple weeks ago, prior to that I was running 2 channels on the music and movies...now I'm back to 5.1 movies (I prefer 2 channel music). The 5.1's sound fabulous and I have had two people (one with PSB's and another with B&W 6series) commenting on how much better my stuff sounds then theirs which of course made me feel good, especially considering the B&W towers aren't half bad
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post #1553 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 06:27 PM
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Hey guys I am narrowing my options down a bit... I am currently deciding between KEF iq9's (which are on clearance) and the swan diva's 6.1 (also)

which would you recommend?

Also I am planning to go 5.1 probably what do you recommend for surrounds dipole/bipoles or regular?
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post #1554 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 07:00 PM
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Also I am planning to go 5.1 probably what do you recommend for surrounds dipole/bipoles or regular?

This really depends on your room, and seating configuration.
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post #1555 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 08:54 PM
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Hey guys I am narrowing my options down a bit... I am currently deciding between KEF iq9's (which are on clearance) and the swan diva's 6.1 (also)

which would you recommend?

Also I am planning to go 5.1 probably what do you recommend for surrounds dipole/bipoles or regular?

I'm not a fan of KEF for some reason. I know ppl love them and they are a great speaker but the just don't pull at my heart strings. Make sure you listen to them first.

Corey
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post #1556 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 11:05 PM
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notig, you won't have much of an option for rear surrounds, the Diva 2.1s will (TAI closed them out 6 months ago) have to be special ordered from jon, check with him before you get your heart set on your rears.

"Without music life would be a mistake." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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post #1557 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 11:09 PM
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should i message him here or somewhere else? on oz home theater it doesn't say they are out of stock.....

http://www.ozhometheater.com/ozht_pr..._bookshelf.htm


Swans Diva 2.1 Bookshelf - Faux Black Cherry


Faux Black Cherry Vinyl - FREE Extended Warranty - 30 Day Audition Period!


$329 pr. | $65.00 Shipping
ON SALE NOW - FREE SHIPPING!
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post #1558 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 11:43 PM
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Jon is at www.theaudioinsider.com

Steve is at www.ozhometheater.com and even steve will note his website isn't very up to date.

In most applications, the R3 would be you better bet, especially if you are wanting it for movies and having rear/sidewalls near. If you are interested in multichannel audio (SACD, DVDA) without a rear or sidewall then the 2.1s may be better suited.

"Without music life would be a mistake." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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post #1559 of 3905 Old 11-08-2008, 11:47 PM
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Im willing to try the dipoles... but if i ever want to have a 7.1 setup.. and get timber matched tweeters or what have you... Will the regular satellites always be unavailable? Just for future reference?
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post #1560 of 3905 Old 11-09-2008, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac8d4 View Post

...the Diva 2.1s will (TAI closed them out 6 months ago) have to be special ordered from jon, check with him before you get your heart set on your rears.

We have the option to revive this model; just email us your interest.

Jon Lane
Chane Music & Cinema
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