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post #16621 of 16650 Old 01-27-2016, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post

I wonder if Crown/JBL double blind test the amps on the shuffler? It would be interesting to know if they're seeing real world perceptible difference between level matched SDA and iTech amps. Everyone is all about science with speakers, but things seem to come off the rails with the amps.

That's what they recommended for my room - 2 x SDA 4600, same as you described, which is what I originally bought. That sounded a lot more reasonable with plenty of headroom for speakers sitting in a family room to me. The iTech requirement on the Pro side gave me a lot heart burn. To each their own if someone wants to overkill one aspect of their system, but I can't see the manufacturer requiring overkill as a condition of the sale.
Yeah, it's quite a disconnect between the Pro and consumer side in regards to amplification. I suspect the pro side engineer parking lot is filled with Hummers with those brass balls hanging off the trailer hitch. That could explain it
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post #16622 of 16650 Old 01-27-2016, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post
So you can go can stay in the digital domain to the sdec with the itech amp?

Sorry you are being asked this 5 different ways..
So answer is "maybe, but it's probably not worth it."

Longer answer:

There was some discussion on WBF that it should be possible, but was non-standard. The SDECs are based on the BSS hardware - I don't remember which models. But it I think hardware the 4500X is based on can use BSS AES output cards as well as analog output cards. So normally JBL fills it with analog outputs, but supposedly it's possible with a special firmware update to use AES outputs.

So you would Blulink out of the 4500P to the 4500X, then run AES to the iTech. If you're interested, I can try to find the link. It was on a KYDG room for Amir. Keith is on their master calibrator list and does the FLO subwoofer optimization for them, so he gets to do things other people can't. I don't know if it would be possible for someone like you or me.

Also, unless you get their SDP-75 SSP, you're going to have to eat an A/D conversion into the SDEC. The "Blulink full digital path" is only "full" when measured from inside the SDEC onward.

Same with the iTech. They tout the benefits of a digital connection between the DSP and the DAC since both are in the amp... but that's only after it's gone through an extra A/D conversion that they're proudly claiming to avoid. In a true content creation Pro space AES is often used, and in that case it does stay all digital. You can also get digital outputs for 2 channel. But if you're trying to use the iTech / M2 for HT, nothing decodes Atmos and outputs over AES except Trinnov, and I think Theta, and Datasat Rs20i.

But in any case, even if you manage to get AES out from your source, HDCP requires down conversion to 48/16 for unencrypted digital output. So you're left with a choice between analog 24/96 out of SSP, resampled at 24/96 on SDEC -or- full digital path but with SSP down conversion to 48/16.

The Trinnov based SDP-75 is supposed to have Blulink out for a clean, standardized digital input to the SDEC, but unless they have a new protocol revision for Blulink that adds encryption, it will probably have to downconvert as well.
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post #16623 of 16650 Old 01-27-2016, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Haha! Synthesis is simple! The only catch is that it's designed for the consumer that walks in to a dealer, chooses Synthesis package "X", and keeps the door unlocked for the installers and calibrators. When it's all done they're taught how to operate their new remote.

Edit: But we do have dealers like John on these forums that are willing to go the extra mile to figure out how to make sh!t work for the more "hands on" crowd around here. But then Synthesis is not so simple .
Thanks for that, Gooddoc

I've been trying really hard to make sure everyone here is getting accurate info and thoughtful answers to their questions. I am a big believer in earning a sale.

One of the best compliments I ever got in this industry was from Kevin Voecks, who said to me and Brad at CEDIA: "you guys are the poster children for how Harman products should be sold and presented." He appreciates the fact that we try to make sure we understand the science and engineering behind the products, and why it matters.

FWIW, we've been getting great support from our Synthesis reps in that they are fine with us building out systems over time for our customers and ourselves. If someone wants a complete package all at once, great, but if someone wants to put it together over time we just try and make sure all future contingencies are planned for.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment
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post #16624 of 16650 Old 01-27-2016, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
That was my understanding as well, that dealer cost is the same. But since Crown can legitimately be sold online, there is much more competition. You get websites setup to work on volume, where they're ok making a couple hundred dollars profit to enter your contact info & payment into Crown's system for drop shipping from the manufacture.

Where as Synthesis, for better or worse, is much more of a premium buying experience that involves "sales support engineering". You're working with a knowledgeable person that guides equipment selection to meet design goals for your room, possibly visits the site, identifies problems upfront, come up with solutions, etc. That level of service, understandably, doesn't work on razor thin equipment margins.

So if someone knows exactly what they want and is just looking for bargain basement pricing on an item sold through both channels... there are typically options to get deeper discounts on the Pro side.

I wonder if Crown/JBL double blind test the amps on the shuffler? It would be interesting to know if they're seeing real world perceptible difference between level matched SDA and iTech amps. Everyone is all about science with speakers, but things seem to come off the rails with the amps.

That's what they recommended for my room - 2 x SDA 4600, same as you described, which is what I originally bought. That sounded a lot more reasonable with plenty of headroom for speakers sitting in a family room to me. The iTech requirement on the Pro side gave me a lot heart burn. To each their own if someone wants to overkill one aspect of their system, but I can't see the manufacturer requiring overkill as a condition of the sale.
OK, can't argue with much of the above. I do hope people see value in having someone who understands the system and makes sure it all works together, just like you describe. After all, the guys marking up the equipment 15% and shipping out a box aren't here on the Forum answering questions or doing much to earn a sale.

FYI it's the opinion of Drs. Toole and Olive as well as Kevin Voecks that electronics are for the most part neutral. They are not big believers in sonic differences between amps, working within their specs / tolerances. Speakers have huge differences in sound, hence the need for a true double blind evaluation process.

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post #16625 of 16650 Old 01-28-2016, 02:53 PM
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JBL SpeakerAngle And SpeakerPro iOS Apps

AudioApps, a company that specializes in audio guiding systems for smartphones, has partnered with JBL for two new iOS apps JBL SpeakerAngle and JBL SpeakerPro. These apps allow users to get the most from their stereo and home theater systems. Developed in conjunction with JBL, the world's leading manufacturer of loudspeakers and professional studio monitors, these two new apps ensure precise speaker placement. JBL SpeakerAngle, which is completely free of charge, is the first-ever digital tool which allows users to correctly set and match the toe-in angling of their speakers for maximum audio fidelity. JBL SpeakerPro, priced at just $ 1.99, adds the ability to optimize setup by measuring distances from speaker to listening position and speaker to speaker directly from the iOS device. The resultant data can be stored, shared, and printed, and is used by the app to make intelligent toe-in recommendations based upon the specific listening environment. JBL SpeakerAngle and JBL SpeakerPro can be used with any stereo or surround sound system (up to 7.1), and with any make and model of speaker. They are compatible with all iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch models running iOS 7.0 or later. "We're thrilled to have worked with JBL on the development of these two groundbreaking apps," said Howard Massey, founder of AudioApps. "I'm convinced that both products will be of tremendous benefit to anyone who loves great-sounding audio, from audiophiles and home theater aficionados to owners of home studios and staff at professional recording studios."



http://www.enjoythemusic.com/news/
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post #16626 of 16650 Old 01-28-2016, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
FYI it's the opinion of Drs. Toole and Olive as well as Kevin Voecks that electronics are for the most part neutral. They are not big believers in sonic differences between amps, working within their specs / tolerances. Speakers have huge differences in sound, hence the need for a true double blind evaluation process.
So when I look at powering an S1S-EX, I could:

1) Use an SDA 4600 (Crown 4|600N) and bridge two channels for 1200w. That's $2250 in amp costs per sub.

2) Use a Crown XLS 2000, and bridge two channels for 1300w. That's ~$600 in amp costs per sub.

The SDEC has 4 analog outputs for subs, so I don't need Blulink. SFM and DSP is done in the SDEC, so I don't need the DSP capabilities of the amps.

Amp #1 is acceptable to Synthesis. Amp #2 is not.

If all amps sound the same, why can't I use the Crown amp that supplies enough power at almost 1/4 the cost?
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post #16627 of 16650 Old 01-28-2016, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
So when I look at powering an S1S-EX, I could:

1) Use an SDA 4600 (Crown 4|600N) and bridge two channels for 1200w. That's $2250 in amp costs per sub.

2) Use a Crown XLS 2000, and bridge two channels for 1300w. That's ~$600 in amp costs per sub.

The SDEC has 4 analog outputs for subs, so I don't need Blulink. SFM and DSP is done in the SDEC, so I don't need the DSP capabilities of the amps.

Amp #1 is acceptable to Synthesis. Amp #2 is not.

If all amps sound the same, why can't I use the Crown amp that supplies enough power at almost 1/4 the cost?
Another option is to use a Crown DCI 2/1250N which is the same tech as the SDA amps at $3400 retail and drive both subs with it. Or get the DCI analog version (no blu-link) for $2700

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post #16628 of 16650 Old 01-28-2016, 05:44 PM
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I know this is JBL SPK thread but I received a Crown xli800 and was wondering which setting on the sensitivity switch to use,1.4 v or 0.775v?
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post #16629 of 16650 Old 01-28-2016, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
So when I look at powering an S1S-EX, I could:

1) Use an SDA 4600 (Crown 4|600N) and bridge two channels for 1200w. That's $2250 in amp costs per sub.

2) Use a Crown XLS 2000, and bridge two channels for 1300w. That's ~$600 in amp costs per sub.

The SDEC has 4 analog outputs for subs, so I don't need Blulink. SFM and DSP is done in the SDEC, so I don't need the DSP capabilities of the amps.

Amp #1 is acceptable to Synthesis. Amp #2 is not.

If all amps sound the same, why can't I use the Crown amp that supplies enough power at almost 1/4 the cost?
I own 4 Crown XLS 1502 amps to drive my surrounds and Atmos speakers. I am pretty sure in course of my research of the XLS amps I read that they are fine down to 20HZ but really not flat below that and start to fall off so most guys who were considering using them to drive subs said they probably aren't the best fit for that application. Maybe do a quick search on AVS to see if you read the same info. Just a courtesy FYI.
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post #16630 of 16650 Old 01-28-2016, 07:09 PM
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^^^ I would be shocked if the SDA 4600 was any different than the XLS in this regard.
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post #16631 of 16650 Old 01-29-2016, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
So when I look at powering an S1S-EX, I could:

1) Use an SDA 4600 (Crown 4|600N) and bridge two channels for 1200w. That's $2250 in amp costs per sub.

2) Use a Crown XLS 2000, and bridge two channels for 1300w. That's ~$600 in amp costs per sub.

The SDEC has 4 analog outputs for subs, so I don't need Blulink. SFM and DSP is done in the SDEC, so I don't need the DSP capabilities of the amps.

Amp #1 is acceptable to Synthesis. Amp #2 is not.

If all amps sound the same, why can't I use the Crown amp that supplies enough power at almost 1/4 the cost?
I don't know that one amp is "unacceptable" for Synthesis. I've been working with one Forum member with incorporating their existing, non-Synthesis amps into a Synthesis system. The main thing with Synthesis is SDEC integration and "knowing" the capabilities of all amps and speakers in the system in order to meet the certification goals that Synthesis is capable of achieving. There are probably some Crown amps that will do that, others that will not. Not necessarily because they are incapable, but possibly because having dozens of amplifier configurations would just make Synthesis integration wildly over-complicated, not only from an install point of view, but from a testing and certification point of view on Harman's side. Conjecture, but it sounds reasonable to me.

If you do use the SDA amps, you can take advantage of the Blu-link capabilities to the subs. The SDA amps allow for additional DSP processing that expands the capabilities of the SDEC itself and allows for configuration over the network via the Audio Architect software (Audio Architect allows for quite a bit of tweaking of the amp and its settings, DSP and otherwise). It also allows you to add more channels to an SDEC based system without having to purchase an SDEC add-on module.

If you compare the cut sheets on both the XLS2000 and the SDA amps, you can see there are quite a few other differences between the amps themselves (guaranteed power output, enhancements to reliability on the SDAs):

http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/products/dci-4-600n

http://rdn.harmanpro.com/product_doc...5_original.pdf

The goal with Synthesis is to eliminate the "circle of confusion" problem that Dr. Toole and others are always talking about (making sure that comparable systems sound the same in different environments, which is implemented by making sure that all performance parameters of components and speakers are known and can be matched location to location). The SDEC is in many ways the heart of that. The network and Blu-link capabilities of the SDA amps allow for more fine control of those parameters.

None of this is meant to suggest that you can't create a good sounding system without going full Synthesis (my system sounds great and is only pseudo-Synthesis).

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post #16632 of 16650 Old 01-30-2016, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I own 4 Crown XLS 1502 amps to drive my surrounds and Atmos speakers. I am pretty sure in course of my research of the XLS amps I read that they are fine down to 20HZ but really not flat below that and start to fall off so most guys who were considering using them to drive subs said they probably aren't the best fit for that application. Maybe do a quick search on AVS to see if you read the same info. Just a courtesy FYI.
I remember reading the discussion you are referring to, but thought context was guys building IB / DIY subs and targeting single digit extension. Infrasonic output isn't a goal for JBL. They say it's hard to EQ that low and you won't hear it anyway. That's reflected in the S1S-EX which is only rated for 20hz - 400hz frequency response. http://www.jblsynthesis.com/tl_files...ec%20sheet.pdf So I don't think the amps rolloff below 20hz would explain it, at least not for the S1S-EX.

 

 

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post #16633 of 16650 Old 01-30-2016, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
There are probably some Crown amps that will do that, others that will not. Not necessarily because they are incapable, but possibly because having dozens of amplifier configurations would just make Synthesis integration wildly over-complicated, not only from an install point of view, but from a testing and certification point of view on Harman's side. Conjecture, but it sounds reasonable to me.
I can see the 2 DCi amps are what they validated with, so those are the building blocks of all Synthesis systems now. That's fair. But I'm wondering why they didn't take the time to validate the $500 amp, especially if all amps sound the same. I'm sure sales likes the idea of selling 2 x $4500 amps for subs when 4 x $500 would do, but it makes the system more expensive than it needs to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
If you do use the SDA amps, you can take advantage of the Blu-link capabilities to the subs. The SDA amps allow for additional DSP processing that expands the capabilities of the SDEC itself and allows for configuration over the network via the Audio Architect software (Audio Architect allows for quite a bit of tweaking of the amp and its settings, DSP and otherwise). It also allows you to add more channels to an SDEC based system without having to purchase an SDEC add-on module.
The SDEC-4500P comes with 4 analog outputs for subs, so the channel expander isn't needed to run 4 subs analog. I'm skeptical that the DSP in the SDA amps gets used with an SDEC (other than Blulink -> DAC). Both the BSS and SDEC have been sold as a full featured DSP. Originally for analog amps that didn't have any DSP, and then later as a step up from what was being built into the amps. Especially for subs, what deficiency in the SDEC DSP are the SDA amps correcting for?

As far as ease of setting up an amp, I guess that's something, but $500 vs $2250 per sub is pretty steep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
If you compare the cut sheets on both the XLS2000 and the SDA amps, you can see there are quite a few other differences between the amps themselves (guaranteed power output, enhancements to reliability on the SDAs): None of this is meant to suggest that you can't create a good sounding system without going full Synthesis (my system sounds great and is only pseudo-Synthesis).
They look marginally different to me. Which spec do you think will result in a audible difference when driving a Synthesis sub?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
The goal with Synthesis is to eliminate the "circle of confusion" problem that Dr. Toole and others are always talking about (making sure that comparable systems sound the same in different environments, which is implemented by making sure that all performance parameters of components and speakers are known and can be matched location to location). The SDEC is in many ways the heart of that. The network and Blu-link capabilities of the SDA amps allow for more fine control of those parameters.
Here is my circular (logic) of confusion:

Toole says all electronics sound the same (when operating within spec), therefore there is no reason to test them. Synthesis defines a narrow subset (of expensive) Harman amps to ensure systems sound the same. If the electronics sound the same, so much that that there is no reason to DBT the various models against each other, why are consumers then locked into the most expensive series of amps "to ensure systems sound the same"? Didn't we just establish that the amps don't contribute to the sound?
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post #16634 of 16650 Old 01-30-2016, 04:45 PM
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I'm assuming they isolate the amp selection to the DCI series for their Blu-Link capability. Too many amp options potentially adds too many variables. Properly designed amps may not contribute to what we hear but leaving too many options available could contribute to a mismatch in amps to speaker/sub. At the end of the day, seems like you can select what ever amp you prefer but it may not be profiled.
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post #16635 of 16650 Old 01-30-2016, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post
I'm assuming they isolate the amp selection to the DCI series for their Blu-Link capability. Too many amp options potentially adds too many variables. Properly designed amps may not contribute to the what we hear but leaving too many options available could contribute to a mismatch in amps to speaker/sub. A the end of the day, seems like you can select what ever amp you prefer but it may not be profiled.
I think that pretty much sums up what I am getting at

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post #16636 of 16650 Old 01-30-2016, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
I can see the 2 DCi amps are what they validated with, so those are the building blocks of all Synthesis systems now. That's fair. But I'm wondering why they didn't take the time to validate the $500 amp, especially if all amps sound the same. I'm sure sales likes the idea of selling 2 x $4500 amps for subs when 4 x $500 would do, but it makes the system more expensive than it needs to be.

The SDEC-4500P comes with 4 analog outputs for subs, so the channel expander isn't needed to run 4 subs analog. I'm skeptical that the DSP in the SDA amps gets used with an SDEC (other than Blulink -> DAC). Both the BSS and SDEC have been sold as a full featured DSP. Originally for analog amps that didn't have any DSP, and then later as a step up from what was being built into the amps. Especially for subs, what deficiency in the SDEC DSP are the SDA amps correcting for?

As far as ease of setting up an amp, I guess that's something, but $500 vs $2250 per sub is pretty steep.

They look marginally different to me. Which spec do you think will result in a audible difference when driving a Synthesis sub?

Here is my circular (logic) of confusion:

Toole says all electronics sound the same (when operating within spec), therefore there is no reason to test them. Synthesis defines a narrow subset (of expensive) Harman amps to ensure systems sound the same. If the electronics sound the same, so much that that there is no reason to DBT the various models against each other, why are consumers then locked into the most expensive series of amps "to ensure systems sound the same"? Didn't we just establish that the amps don't contribute to the sound?
The SDA amps all allow for the specific speaker tunings for each model to be loaded into their configurations. In my SDA8300, I can go into Audio Architect and load in the anechoic data for the LSR708s as well as the bi-amp configurations for the LSR708s. I can assign the speaker tunings per input / output to ensure that the amp performance is matched to the particular speaker being installed. There is also additional processing going on with my 708s, in that the speaker tuning also loads in a limiter settings to protect the speakers from being overdriven. I am able to achieve all of this with SDA amp even though I currently don't own an SDEC. There are also parametric eq adjustments, pilot tone generators, etc, all built in that can be controlled with the Audio Architect software (you can download Audio Architect for free and take a look if you like).

Hopefully you can see how the SDA amps allow for expansion when you run out of channels in the SDEC itself without having to buy an expander. The SDA amps work like expanders, allowing for speaker tunings and calibration settings to be loaded into the amps.

FWIW, I would like to see a 2 channel amp get added to the Synthesis line-up.

If you go back and read my original post, this is what I wrote:

FYI it's the opinion of Drs. Toole and Olive as well as Kevin Voecks that electronics are for the most part neutral. They are not big believers in sonic differences between amps, working within their specs / tolerances.


I didn't put in the words "for the most part" and "not big believers" arbitrarily. I was deliberately trying to avoid making an absolute statement. There can be differences in sound between amplifiers if one can't handle the difficult impedance load of something like a Revel Salon2, for example (see my direct quotes from Kevin Voecks about the subject in the Revel thread). Matching the amp capabilities to the speaker is an important part of the equation. The SDA amps allow for greater control over those interactions and add to the calibration capabilities already in the SDEC.

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post #16637 of 16650 Old 01-30-2016, 08:45 PM
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FWIW, I would like to see a 2 channel amp get added to the Synthesis line-up.
@John Schuermann - Crown has 2 channel models in the DCI/N series why not use them as part of a Synthesis system? Accoring to Crown, they are profiled in Arcos/SDEC

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post #16638 of 16650 Old 01-31-2016, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
The SDA amps all allow for the specific speaker tunings for each model to be loaded into their configurations. In my SDA8300, I can go into Audio Architect and load in the anechoic data for the LSR708s as well as the bi-amp configurations for the LSR708s. I can assign the speaker tunings per input / output to ensure that the amp performance is matched to the particular speaker being installed. There is also additional processing going on with my 708s, in that the speaker tuning also loads in a limiter settings to protect the speakers from being overdriven. I am able to achieve all of this with SDA amp even though I currently don't own an SDEC. There are also parametric eq adjustments, pilot tone generators, etc, all built in that can be controlled with the Audio Architect software (you can download Audio Architect for free and take a look if you like).
That's all stuff the SDEC would normally handle. The only reason you're doing it in the amps now is because you don't have an SDEC. When you get your SDEC, most if not all of those features will become redundant and not used. You'll load the anechoic data for the LSR708s into the SDEC. You'll do the crossovers in the SDEC. You'll do PEQ, adjust phase, and generate test tones using Arcos on the SDEC.

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Hopefully you can see how the SDA amps allow for expansion when you run out of channels in the SDEC itself without having to buy an expander. The SDA amps work like expanders, allowing for speaker tunings and calibration settings to be loaded into the amps.
I don't see the relevance. We're talking about using cheaper, analog (non-DSP based) Crown amps for subs. The subwoofer DSP is going to be handled on the SDEC because of SFM. There are benefits to using the DCi N based SDA amps with the main speakers, which I've posted in the past, but my contention is they bring little to no value in powering JBL Synthesis subs. Consider:

Subwoofer DSP will be done in the SDEC.
The SDEC comes with 4 analog outputs
The 1dB improvement in SNR connecting over Blulink will not be noticeable with subs.

So at the very least, a DCi analog series amp would work just as well and be cheaper. At best, a similarly spec'd analog Crown XLS would work and be MUCH cheaper.

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If you go back and read my original post, this is what I wrote:

FYI it's the opinion of Drs. Toole and Olive as well as Kevin Voecks that electronics are for the most part neutral. They are not big believers in sonic differences between amps, working within their specs / tolerances.

I didn't put in the words "for the most part" and "not big believers" arbitrarily. I was deliberately trying to avoid making an absolute statement.
Lets quote the who thing:

FYI it's the opinion of Drs. Toole and Olive as well as Kevin Voecks that electronics are for the most part neutral. They are not big believers in sonic differences between amps, working within their specs / tolerances. Speakers have huge differences in sound, hence the need for a true double blind evaluation process.

I took that to mean they do not double blind test amps based on their opinion / belief that any variance would fall below the threshold of what needs to be tested. That they feel some variance may exist is understood, but their decision not to double blind test amps is absolute. Either they do it or they don't. If they don't, I don't see how they can claim one amp is audibly better than another, when the whole premise for not double blind testing is that all amps are going to sound reasonably similar, such that no (DBT) testing is needed.

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There can be differences in sound between amplifiers if one can't handle the difficult impedance load of something like a Revel Salon2, for example (see my direct quotes from Kevin Voecks about the subject in the Revel thread). Matching the amp capabilities to the speaker is an important part of the equation. The SDA amps allow for greater control over those interactions and add to the calibration capabilities already in the SDEC.
We're talking amps for subs. Some weird impedance curve on the Revel Salon2 isn't relevant. Are the the S1S-EX or S2S-EX really that difficult to drive that they need a DCi caliber amp?

 

 

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post #16639 of 16650 Old 01-31-2016, 04:45 PM
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@John Schuermann - Crown has 2 channel models in the DCI/N series why not use them as part of a Synthesis system? Accoring to Crown, they are profiled in Arcos/SDEC
Yes, that's correct - and a major reason why I set myself up as a Pro dealer, so I can mix and match where necessary
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post #16640 of 16650 Old 01-31-2016, 04:46 PM
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Yes, that's correct - and a major reason why I set myself up as a Pro dealer, so I can mix and match where necessary
Smart move.
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post #16641 of 16650 Old 01-31-2016, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
That's all stuff the SDEC would normally handle. The only reason you're doing it in the amps now is because you don't have an SDEC. When you get your SDEC, most if not all of those features will become redundant and not used. You'll load the anechoic data for the LSR708s into the SDEC. You'll do the crossovers in the SDEC. You'll do PEQ, adjust phase, and generate test tones using Arcos on the SDEC.

I don't see the relevance. We're talking about using cheaper, analog (non-DSP based) Crown amps for subs. The subwoofer DSP is going to be handled on the SDEC because of SFM. There are benefits to using the DCi N based SDA amps with the main speakers, which I've posted in the past, but my contention is they bring little to no value in powering JBL Synthesis subs. Consider:

Subwoofer DSP will be done in the SDEC.
The SDEC comes with 4 analog outputs
The 1dB improvement in SNR connecting over Blulink will not be noticeable with subs.

So at the very least, a DCi analog series amp would work just as well and be cheaper. At best, a similarly spec'd analog Crown XLS would work and be MUCH cheaper.

Lets quote the who thing:

FYI it's the opinion of Drs. Toole and Olive as well as Kevin Voecks that electronics are for the most part neutral. They are not big believers in sonic differences between amps, working within their specs / tolerances. Speakers have huge differences in sound, hence the need for a true double blind evaluation process.

I took that to mean they do not double blind test amps based on their opinion / belief that any variance would fall below the threshold of what needs to be tested. That they feel some variance may exist is understood, but their decision not to double blind test amps is absolute. Either they do it or they don't. If they don't, I don't see how they can claim one amp is audibly better than another, when the whole premise for not double blind testing is that all amps are going to sound reasonably similar, such that no (DBT) testing is needed.

We're talking amps for subs. Some weird impedance curve on the Revel Salon2 isn't relevant. Are the the S1S-EX or S2S-EX really that difficult to drive that they need a DCi caliber amp?
OK, I think we are just talking at cross-purposes here. As for your questions / concerns about subs, you may very well be correct. Please know that when I am answering questions I am also thinking of others who might be reading who want to understand the thinking / reasoning / value behind the SDA amps in a wider context. You may very well be correct in terms of the validity of their use (or non-use) for subs only. It is my general practice to answer questions while being very much aware that others are reading and trying to get a broader view. If this is actually making things more confusing, that is not my intention. Apologies if so.

You are correct in that some of the modes I am currently using in my SDA amp will be redundant once I add an SDEC for my particular system. However, if someone is looking to add more channels / speakers for a fully implemented home Atmos system, the extra processing capabilities of the SDA amps become valuable (after all, the home ATMOS spec supports up to 10 channels on the ceiling and 24 on the floor).

I do not know if Harman conducts double blind testing of their amps, against their own or others. I just have the experience of talking to Dr. Toole and Kevin Voecks at various events. Both of them offered the opinion that well designed electronics, as a whole, are for the most part neutral. This of course assumes quite a wide range of variables are executed properly within the electronics being discussed. If I insinuated that this means they take this as a starting assumption and never DB test a component / amp, that was not my intention. They simply stressed that it was most necessary and valuable when it came to speakers, which is something that almost no one else ever does.

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post #16642 of 16650 Old 01-31-2016, 05:38 PM
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My reason for wanting a Synthesis branded sub amp are 2 fold:

One, is to save money, obviously.

Two, is because the flexibility John is able to offer isn't representative of most JBL dealers. John is one of a few dealers that sells both lines. Most dealers represent one channel.

My local Synthesis dealer, for example, has no appetite for Crown or JBL Cinema parts in the system. If it isn't a Synthesis SKU, no dice. I also talked to Doc's dealer who sits exclusively on the Pro side. They have their own sales requirements, so despite Synthesis allowing the M2's to be sold with SDA amps, Pro can't sell the M2's with the equivalent DCi Network amps. They have to sell them with iTech amps.

I guess I just have to decide if it's worth 18% more than what I previously paid to try to purchase again. I'll let everyone get back to their regularly scheduled programming now.

 

 

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post #16643 of 16650 Old 02-01-2016, 12:57 PM
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Here is some Crown amp porn

Hey what sensitivity setting do you use and level do you set the crown amps?
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post #16644 of 16650 Old 02-01-2016, 01:30 PM
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Hey what sensitivity setting do you use and level do you set the crown amps?
I have the gain set at about 50% (12 oclock position ish) on both the XLS and DSi Crown amps. If I go to 100% I do pick up a little hum on the DSI amps so if I keep it under 75% (3 oclock position) I don't hear any hum. Now my JBL 4722 do have a little hiss with these DSi amps but that is normal because of there very high sensitivity when being driven actively. Other users on the 4722 thread have reported the same results and this is trait of high sensitivity speakers in general (my previous JTR speakers had hiss as well and they were 104 db sensitive).
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post #16645 of 16650 Old 02-01-2016, 02:06 PM
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Thxs,I have the lxi 800,I used banana plugs but they touch the metal of the 800 so I placed a piece of rubber between the plugs and the 800 it should work and not cause a short what do you think?
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post #16646 of 16650 Old 02-01-2016, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
My reason for wanting a Synthesis branded sub amp are 2 fold:

One, is to save money, obviously.

Two, is because the flexibility John is able to offer isn't representative of most JBL dealers. John is one of a few dealers that sells both lines. Most dealers represent one channel.

My local Synthesis dealer, for example, has no appetite for Crown or JBL Cinema parts in the system. If it isn't a Synthesis SKU, no dice. I also talked to Doc's dealer who sits exclusively on the Pro side. They have their own sales requirements, so despite Synthesis allowing the M2's to be sold with SDA amps, Pro can't sell the M2's with the equivalent DCi Network amps. They have to sell them with iTech amps.

I guess I just have to decide if it's worth 18% more than what I previously paid to try to purchase again. I'll let everyone get back to their regularly scheduled programming now.
Makes sense.

I do understand your Synthesis dealer's decision not to include actual JBL Cinema speakers in systems, though. I stay away from it myself if at all possible. I do have some experience as a film mixer and film composer and have interfaced with several mix studios out in Hollywood / L.A. over the years, and no one considers the Cinema speakers to have anywhere near the accuracy / fidelity of JBL studio monitors or of Synthesis systems. Actual commercial cinema sound is notoriously bad (don't start Dr. Toole on the subject!) and the speakers designed for it are trying to make the best of a generally poor situation. This is not to rip on JBL commercial cinema product, it's just the current trend of stadium theater designs is not conducive to good quality sound and many of the speakers are designed around an entirely different set of criteria than you would have in a mix studio or home theater.

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post #16647 of 16650 Old Today, 11:50 AM
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Anyone happen to know what third party subwoofer (non JBL) are profiled in ARCOS? I know they are supposed to have some popular competitors listed but I was curious which subs they took the time to profile.

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post #16648 of 16650 Old Today, 01:45 PM
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Anyone happen to know what third party subwoofer (non JBL) are profiled in ARCOS? I know they are supposed to have some popular competitors listed but I was curious which subs they took the time to profile.
I asked this specific question for another AVS Forum member and the response was that there was just a choice for "other" in the SDEC subwoofer menu - no specific models of competitors. JBL calibrators will calibrate competitive speakers and subwoofers, but they will not certify the system to meet or exceed SMPTE / THX specs once they are done.

It's my understanding that there are profiles for certain high end "main" speakers in ARCOS, as the calibrators have run into certain models that customers wished to retain for left and right duties in their theaters (I don't know specifically which models, but I would guess it would be high dollar speakers like B&W or Wilson that the customers are emotionally attached to).

Since so much of the Harman calibration and design philosophy has to do with correcting frequencies below Schroeder using EQ and proper sub placement, I would guess that they are even more particular about knowing the particulars of sub performance than anything else.

Of course, the Revel sub profiles are all included in ARCOS. For anyone looking at a high end sub, the Revel Ultima Rhythm2 subs are on closeout right now. There are about a half dozen left in the country, new in a box.

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post #16649 of 16650 Old Today, 03:30 PM
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Speaking of Harman subs and DSP, are there any differences in performance or functionality of the stand-alone sub DSPs? I assume any difference between the Revel subs, for instance, would be strictly driver quality and amp power?
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Speaking of Harman subs and DSP, are there any differences in performance or functionality of the stand-alone sub DSPs? I assume any difference between the Revel subs, for instance, would be strictly driver quality and amp power?
That would be my understanding. There is a review of the Rhythm2 on the Stereophile site that gets into the Revel DSP and how it is implemented, at least in the Rhythm2:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/r...PJGYxm52mW9.97

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