Martin Logan Owners Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 836 Old 07-15-2014, 11:05 AM
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i'd like to ask those using their Martin Logan speakers in a dedicated home theater room what AV receiver are they using to power their speakers and if they are using a external amp. I didn't realize when I made my purchase that the motion 40's and 30 are 4ohm rated. I am also getting a pair of lx16 to complete the setup along w/ with my sub.
I'm using a Denon 4520 set to 4ohm and an external 2 channel amp ( Emotiva ) - but only because I'm running 11 speakers. The 4520 was perfectly capable of driving 9 channels ( Martin Logan Motion 40’s ( 2 ), Motion 8 center speaker,Motion FX surrounds ( 4 ), Motion LX16 wides ( 2 ) ) all by itself, to beyond reference levels ( until I get yelled at to " turn it down " ). I add Motion 4 heights ( 2 ) for 11 total. That's the only reason I needed an external amp.

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post #812 of 836 Old 07-15-2014, 11:05 AM
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I wasn't - but I am now. I love my Motion 40's - always call for our price ...
Craig, have you heard a Crescendo demo'd yet?

http://www.martinlogan.com/crescendo

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post #813 of 836 Old 07-15-2014, 11:41 AM
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Craig, have you heard a Crescendo demo'd yet?

http://www.martinlogan.com/crescendo

I have not. Martin Logan is one of my first stops at Cedia this year - I'll be interested to see what they have set up this year ( last year it was 7.4 surround with 7 Electrostatic speakers driven with monoblock amps and a SACD of Dark Side of the Moon - wild - sounded amazing ! ).

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post #814 of 836 Old 07-15-2014, 12:32 PM
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hi Craig I am interested in ML home theater set up, can u pls help?
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post #815 of 836 Old 07-15-2014, 02:05 PM
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The new 60xt and 50xt looks great. Would love to hear how they sound.. Looks like they are competing with the B&W CM9/CM10.
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post #816 of 836 Old 07-15-2014, 06:51 PM
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Anybody know where I can list my Motion 40's and motion 30 to sell at a good price?

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post #817 of 836 Old 07-15-2014, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I'm using a Denon 4520 set to 4ohm and an external 2 channel amp ( Emotiva ) - but only because I'm running 11 speakers. The 4520 was perfectly capable of driving 9 channels ( Martin Logan Motion 40’s ( 2 ), Motion 8 center speaker,Motion FX surrounds ( 4 ), Motion LX16 wides ( 2 ) ) all by itself, to beyond reference levels ( until I get yelled at to " turn it down " ). I add Motion 4 heights ( 2 ) for 11 total. That's the only reason I needed an external amp.
thanks for the input. what a great setup you have. If you were to do a 7.1 setup would you go with one pair of fx and one pair of lx16 to match the motion 40's and your motion 8 center? The person setting up my projector, screen, audio, etc is recommending I go with motion 4 instead of lx16. Can't think of any reason to do this if I'm going 7.1 setup. Perhaps if I was going 5.1 setup then one could argue that that there may be an advantage to use the fx instead of lx16 but there's two sides to that argument too.
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post #818 of 836 Old 07-16-2014, 08:43 AM
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For side and rear surrounds, wall mounted, I'd use the Motion FX speakers ( I did ). Unless you have to use speaker stands - then the Motion 15's probably make more sense just from a mounting point of view. I did exactly that for wide channel speakers. I used the Motion 4's for heights so I could wall mount them up high, and angle them down towards the main listening area using wall mount brackets.


You can barely see the heights in this photo - http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...28&cat=2082359


And the other photos show the rest of the room and speakers.

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post #819 of 836 Old 07-22-2014, 05:31 PM
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Does anyone use Martin Logan Ascents?

I can buy a used pair locally for $800, but they are 10 years old. Is there anything I should be wary of? Is $800 a good price to where I could resale them later if I don't like them?

Currently I have Klipsch RF-83's (living room) and Klipsch La Scala II's (theater). The ML would go in place of the RF-83's. I like the punch of the RF-83's and they don't need a sub to shake the couch either. However, I think it'd be neat to try something different. I listen to folk, rock, jazz and blues.

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post #820 of 836 Old 07-23-2014, 06:03 AM
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Does anyone use Martin Logan Ascents?

I can buy a used pair locally for $800, but they are 10 years old. Is there anything I should be wary of? Is $800 a good price to where I could resale them later if I don't like them?

Currently I have Klipsch RF-83's (living room) and Klipsch La Scala II's (theater). The ML would go in place of the RF-83's. I like the punch of the RF-83's and they don't need a sub to shake the couch either. However, I think it'd be neat to try something different. I listen to folk, rock, jazz and blues.
$800 is a good price for used Ascents. It depends a bit on how they were treated. ML panels are considered consumable and 10 years is right about that age when they might need to be replaced. It's entirely possible you could use them for another 10 years as is, you just never know.

I would call ML service and see what a set of new panels would cost just so you know going into it.

Also high current power is important with the MLs much more so than the very efficient Klipschs. While they will sound good with a high power receiver, they really need a power amp to sound great, especially if you want great bass.
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post #821 of 836 Old 07-23-2014, 01:33 PM
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Yea, at that age it's a bit of a gamble. Definitely find out how much replacement panels will be. Can you see them and listen to them in person? Being able to look at how good their physical condition is (scratches, dents, etc) can give you some insight into how well the previous owner treated them. Also, when you listen to them listen carefully to any crackling sounds from the panels. Make sure and listen up and down the full panel front and back of both panels for any problems.
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post #822 of 836 Old 07-23-2014, 06:09 PM
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Thanks. I plan to drive ~100 miles to listen to them and pick them. The seller says they were floor models at Tweeter, and that the speakers are in perfect condition. If I don't hear any crackling, is it worth buying them? I don't want to pay for new panels in 5-6 years. Is 15-16 years asking too much out of them?

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Yea, at that age it's a bit of a gamble. Definitely find out how much replacement panels will be. Can you see them and listen to them in person? Being able to look at how good their physical condition is (scratches, dents, etc) can give you some insight into how well the previous owner treated them. Also, when you listen to them listen carefully to any crackling sounds from the panels. Make sure and listen up and down the full panel front and back of both panels for any problems.

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post #823 of 836 Old 07-24-2014, 12:55 PM
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So, I asked for the serial number on the panels and called ML. They panels were built in 9/2000! I also asked ML about lifespan and they stated that degradation does happen and it's typical to have panel degradation you can hear after 15 years. Then I asked how much are new panels and they told me $1639 + $75 shipping!?! Wow! I was prepared to spend another $500 for like new performance, but $1713?!?

Sadly, I cancelled the deal as it's not worth the risk given the Ascents are $800. If they were $400 or less I'd risk it and try to refurbish them later as needed, but...

I really appreciate your guys' help on this. I asked the same thing at ML forum and no one talked about panel degradation!

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post #824 of 836 Old 07-25-2014, 10:12 AM
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Ah that stinks. Good job on the pre-purchase research. A lot of people get burned by not taking the time to ask the right questions. Keep up the search. Keep looking at places like audiogon and keep asking for serial numbers to verify age. You can also sometimes find good deals on Craigslist. I've seen some unbelievable deals on MLs through estate sales where people didn't know what they had.
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post #825 of 836 Old 07-25-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
Ah that stinks. Good job on the pre-purchase research. A lot of people get burned by not taking the time to ask the right questions. Keep up the search. Keep looking at places like audiogon and keep asking for serial numbers to verify age. You can also sometimes find good deals on Craigslist. I've seen some unbelievable deals on MLs through estate sales where people didn't know what they had.
Thanks. I'll keep a look out. I'm also curious about magnepan's too. I know they aren't electrostatic, but they seem much more affordable to upgrade or repair if needed as the company treats its users right. ML was ruined when they got bought out apparently as $1600 is ridiculous...

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post #826 of 836 Old 07-28-2014, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post
Thanks. I'll keep a look out. I'm also curious about magnepan's too. I know they aren't electrostatic, but they seem much more affordable to upgrade or repair if needed as the company treats its users right. ML was ruined when they got bought out apparently as $1600 is ridiculous...
Replacement panels for discontinued models used to be affordable but it really is a shame since ShoreView Industries (Paradigm) bought them out that they jacked up the prices so high. I've been to ML's factory in Lawrence and seen them make the panels. I realize there is allot of markup in speakers but $800+ per panel is ridiculous. They are definitely alienating some of their long time customers.

I'm planning to take a family vacation up to Nova Scotia so I can check out these: http://www.soltanusacoustics.com/

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post #827 of 836 Old 07-28-2014, 11:30 AM
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Yea, I definitely wish the panels were more reasonably priced. That being said, at least they decided to support them at all. They had originally said they would no longer make panels for legacy products at all.
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post #828 of 836 Old Yesterday, 07:46 PM
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Question for the forum: I will be getting motion 60xt for the front and the motion 50xt center with motion 40s in the rear. I have the marantz av8801 with the mm8077 amp. I am considering upgrading my p to get 4 ohm stability with more power. The one I am most interested in is the McIntosh MC8207. My question: is that amp overkill for my setup? Thanks for the help!

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post #829 of 836 Old Yesterday, 07:54 PM
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I would consider it overkill. I run a Marantz MM9000 (older 5 channel amp) with my ML EM ESL's which is probably a more difficult load than the Motion series and it does just fine even at high volume.

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post #830 of 836 Old Yesterday, 08:01 PM
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Overkill in the sense that it could somehow be detrimental to sound quality or hurt your speakers? Not a chance. Overkill in the sense that you would be spending $1000's of dollars for no benefit? Definitely. <-- definitely just my opinion. Others will disagree but having A/B tested martinlogan reserve series, Bowers and wilkins 800 diamond series, sonus faber, def tech, energy, and more, I have come to conclusion that, unless your amps are at their clipping point, any benefits to higher power amps are non-existent. When it comes to volume, keep in mind that doubling power will get you 3db in volume. Discernible difference, but just barely.

For an example, I have personally AB tested the ML Montis with a denon avr x4000 vs McIntosh mx151 and mc205 amp. Cables were audioquest rocket 88 with silver spade connectors. Could not reliably discern which was which after level adjusting.

Also keep in mind a speaker does not have a resistance of 4 ohms. Resistance in a curve and your amp will see many different ohm levels. Unless your amp starts shutting down or has audible clipping, don't worry about it.
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post #831 of 836 Old Yesterday, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
Overkill in the sense that it could somehow be detrimental to sound quality or hurt your speakers? Not a chance. Overkill in the sense that you would be spending $1000's of dollars for no benefit? Definitely. <-- definitely just my opinion. Others will disagree but having A/B tested martinlogan reserve series, Bowers and wilkins 800 diamond series, sonus faber, def tech, energy, and more, I have come to conclusion that, unless your amps are at their clipping point, any benefits to higher power amps are non-existent. When it comes to volume, keep in mind that doubling power will get you 3db in volume. Discernible difference, but just barely.

For an example, I have personally AB tested the ML Montis with a denon avr x4000 vs McIntosh mx151 and mc205 amp. Cables were audioquest rocket 88 with silver spade connectors. Could not reliably discern which was which after level adjusting.

Also keep in mind a speaker does not have a resistance of 4 ohms. Resistance in a curve and your amp will see many different ohm levels. Unless your amp starts shutting down or has audible clipping, don't worry about it.
Thank you for your input. The amp has never shut off...clipping I am unsure about. I have never heard clipping for sure. I have heard minor distortion but unsure if it's the movies recording or the actual amp. That's why I have started to peek down the rabbit hole.

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post #832 of 836 Old Today, 06:20 AM
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Sometimes it can be hard determining if distortion is coming from a recording, a speaker, or if the amp is running out of juice. Is there a specific scene that you can remember had distortion? If you an find a scene that does this, two easy ways of determining what's causing distortion. First, play it a lower volume and get your head near the speaker. If you still get distortion, it is more likely the recording or the speaker itself. speakers with wear or defects can cause distortion at volume as well so if you swap speakers and the distortion follows the speaker then you know it's not an amp or recording issue.
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post #833 of 836 Old Today, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
Sometimes it can be hard determining if distortion is coming from a recording, a speaker, or if the amp is running out of juice. Is there a specific scene that you can remember had distortion? If you an find a scene that does this, two easy ways of determining what's causing distortion. First, play it a lower volume and get your head near the speaker. If you still get distortion, it is more likely the recording or the speaker itself. speakers with wear or defects can cause distortion at volume as well so if you swap speakers and the distortion follows the speaker then you know it's not an amp or recording issue.
Good advice 'maz. Headphones can be useful too. If the same distortion is audible through headphones, and the external speakers are off, the distortion is likely a defect in the recording.

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post #834 of 836 Old Today, 07:51 AM
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Good advice 'maz. Headphones can be useful too. If the same distortion is audible through headphones, and the external speakers are off, the distortion is likely a defect in the recording.
^ great idea with the headphones
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post #835 of 836 Old Today, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMichael View Post
Question for the forum: I will be getting motion 60xt for the front and the motion 50xt center with motion 40s in the rear. I have the marantz av8801 with the mm8077 amp. I am considering upgrading my p to get 4 ohm stability with more power. The one I am most interested in is the McIntosh MC8207. My question: is that amp overkill for my setup? Thanks for the help!
Since you're moving from Motion 40 to Motion 60XT, I'm curious to know what you perceive the differences to be between the two speakers. Have you heard the 60XT yet? Let us know what you think. I'm considering the Motion series and whether to use the 40 or the 60XT in the front. Thanks.

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post #836 of 836 Old Today, 08:38 AM
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Just another thought about going from Motion 40s to Motion 60XTs: nominal impedance for both speakers are 4ohms and it's likely they have pretty similar impedance curves since they are using similar drivers. In addition, the 60XT's have a higher sensitivity rating of 94db/2.83v/m versus 92db/2.83v/m so really the 60XTs will be no more difficult to drive than the 40's. If anything, they will need LESS power than the 40's.
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