Martin Logan Owners Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 971 Old 08-19-2014, 07:08 PM
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Motion 4s

Hi,

I'm looking for a speaker and the guy at BB has suggested ML Motion 4s and 8s. My room size is 19x19x22. Will these speakers be able to fill it up with the highs and lows still clear?

Thanks!
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post #902 of 971 Old 08-19-2014, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post
Just get the cheapest 10 gauge you can find, they all sound the same.
^ +1. Blue Jeans may save you a few bucks.
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post #903 of 971 Old 08-19-2014, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by t1pid7 View Post
I'm looking for a speaker and the guy at BB has suggested ML Motion 4s and 8s. My room size is 19x19x22. Will these speakers be able to fill it up with the highs and lows still clear
Thanks!
That is a big space to fill. What are the floors, walls, windows and ceilings like in your space, and what are the furniture, curtains, and acoustic features in the room?
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post #904 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 12:12 AM
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Thanks!

Currently I have MIT One Wire CMR RG-59, done by the man who sold me the system years ago, and it's still working. But all the connectors looks fragile after many moves.
I am in Europe so Blue Jeans might not be easy..

So, basically I just go out and get some 10 gauge cable, and it will work fine.
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post #905 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:00 AM
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10 gauge is a bit of overkill. It really depends on how long of run you need.


http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

FWIW I run 12 gauge to my LCR (I wanted a little bit of the thick cable look when I bought it, now I don't really care as long as it gets the job done), 14 gauge for my surrounds, rear surrounds, and subwoofers.


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post #906 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:26 AM
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Thanks Tch0rT! Your HT looks very nice
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post #907 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim1290 View Post
I joined avsforum for this reason.
And now I have replaced Classe SSP25 with Marantz SR7008.

I am thinking to replace speaker cables as they are quite old as well. What kind of cable would go well with my speakers?

Thank you!

Jim
I'm sure there will be plenty of debate about speaker cables ranging anything from Home Depot extension cords to mega buck snake oil.

Believe what you want but I have to say I have been really happy with the Clear Day speaker cables I purchased. They are very reasonably priced and as long as you can use a 8 foot pair, Paul the owner will send you out a pair to demo at no cost to you. He was awesome to work with and I can't recommend highly enough.

I'd check and see if he has any trade back cables, as that's what I purchased and saved some $$. Allot of customers work their way up the line and he'll take them back as credit toward the next model up. I'm considering doing this soon myself.
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post #908 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 08:08 AM
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Hello everyone,
I am new to this thread and i apologize if questions like mine have already been asked.

I currently have a small setup of Martin Logan which i have been slowly purchasing.
Front L/R: Purity
SB L/R: Montage
Center: Matinee
Sub: Klipsch Rw12d

Now i want to make it a 7.1 system but i am not sure what speakers I need.
I was thinking of:

Front L/R: Purity
Surround L/R: Montage
SB L/R: ?
Center: Matinee
Sub: Klipsch Rw12d

For the SB i was thinking of small Martin Logan bookshelf speakers but i am not sure which ones or what route i should take.
I didn't want to mix too many speakers so i wanted to know everyone's thoughts.
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post #909 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |Tch0rT| View Post
10 gauge is a bit of overkill. It really depends on how long of run you need.


http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

FWIW I run 12 gauge to my LCR (I wanted a little bit of the thick cable look when I bought it, now I don't really care as long as it gets the job done), 14 gauge for my surrounds, rear surrounds, and subwoofers.
Not sure if he's running electrostats or not but some of the ML's go down to 0.9 ohm I believe, which is off the chart. That's why I got some 8 gauge for my Theos. Probably overkill, could've gotten away with 10 gauge.
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post #910 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bawilbur View Post
I am considering purchasing two Ethos speakers, and would like help from those who are more exerienced with ML speakers. The room is approximately 20 X24', and about 12' in height. It will be used for tv/movie and music. Considerations are:
1) Would you use a center channel speaker, and surrounds? Which? We were at a dealer on Saturday who seemed to think the two Ethos could handle the entire front.
2) I know ML states you don't have to get crazy with the amplification. I would like to keep it simple and use a good receiver. Any recommendations?
3) My wife is not a big fan of subwoofers. I was thinking that the powered woofer of the Ethos would be sufficient. Have others gone this route?
1. Absolutely use a center. Yes, as others have mentioned that you can use a phantom center but having a real center really brings movies to life. Surrounds are nice, but to me a center is significantly more important
2. A decent denon, marantz, or yamaha would be fine. I've used a couple of Denons and they have been my favorite so far but all have been fine.
3. What is it about subwoofers that she does not like? Is it the size? The look? Too loud? If it's an aesthetic thing, then really all you can do is look for a better looking sub or build your own and make it into furniture, like an endtable or something. However, if it's that she doesn't like them to be too loud or boomy then realistically, she probably hasn't ever heard a good sub that is properly set-up. My opinion is that subs shouldn't be heard. What I mean by that is that the sub will improve the perceived sound quality of all the other speakers in your system. They are meant to fill out the bottom registers that speakers, even Ethos with powered woofers, can't reproduce. You also shouldn't really be able to tell where the sub is located. Subs should really only be used to reproduce sounds below your level of directional hearing (around 80 hz for most people). Also keep in mind that rooms effect different frequencies is various ways. This means that separating mids and highs from your bass will allow optimal placement and further improve sound quality. There are very very very very very very very very few speakers in the world that will not get a substantial benefit from integrating a good sub.

TLDR: subs are not about volume, they are about improving sound quality and all set-ups need one (or more)
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post #911 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mogrub View Post
That is a big space to fill. What are the floors, walls, windows and ceilings like in your space, and what are the furniture, curtains, and acoustic features in the room?
Berber carpet floor, front speakers will be next to a window, center would be below tv above the fireplace. Rear speakers will be on the part of the room that is open, will be placed on the left and right walls but will be facing the couch.
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post #912 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by t1pid7 View Post
Berber carpet floor, front speakers will be next to a window, center would be below tv above the fireplace. Rear speakers will be on the part of the room that is open, will be placed on the left and right walls but will be facing the couch.
Do you have or plan on getting a subwoofer? Either way, I think those speakers will be far too small to fill a room that size to even moderate volume. What center speaker did the salesman suggest? Not personally attack the BB employee as I was one for almost 4 years, the vast majority know approximately nothing about audio.
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post #913 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
Do you have or plan on getting a subwoofer? Either way, I think those speakers will be far too small to fill a room that size to even moderate volume. What center speaker did the salesman suggest? Not personally attack the BB employee as I was one for almost 4 years, the vast majority know approximately nothing about audio.
Yes, I have a Klipsch 12" subwoofer. The BB guy showed me the Motion 8. I wanted some speakers that has minimal footprint but big in sound.
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post #914 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:18 PM
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Hey there guys, question - Center Channel.

I have two ESL fronts right now and I cannot see the point of a center channel. They sound phenomenal, the sound stage is big and wide, and dialogue is perfectly understandable at any volume level. I've had them in two setups now - on either side of a 120" screen, and now just a temporary 50" plasma until I get my new screen in - and I didn't miss the center in both cases. Outside of the sweet spot, I have noticed that the nearer speaker will start to dominate the soundfield and the stereo effect suffers, so maybe a center would help there.

How is it that theaters can have a great stereo image across such a large seating area? Is it something to do with just the sheer size of the space, or is that where my missing speakers (I only run 4.1) would help? Would a center help me get better surround sound for every seating position in my current HT?

If yes, what center would you recommend? I had been leaning towards grabbing an older electrostat center like the Cinema I or Feature off of eBay, but both are more money than the Electromotion C2 and Motion 40XT which are both advertised as timber matched to the ESLs and I'd be giving up a lot of post-purchase support by eBaying something rather than getting a new product from my local dealer.
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post #915 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by t1pid7 View Post
Yes, I have a Klipsch 12" subwoofer. The BB guy showed me the Motion 8. I wanted some speakers that has minimal footprint but big in sound.
I fully understand the desire to big sound but small speaker. Where are the speakers going to be placed? Like, are they going on a bookshelf, wall mounted, on speaker stands, etc.? And how constrained are you space?
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post #916 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bull3001 View Post
Hello everyone,
I am new to this thread and i apologize if questions like mine have already been asked.

I currently have a small setup of Martin Logan which i have been slowly purchasing.
Front L/R: Purity
SB L/R: Montage
Center: Matinee
Sub: Klipsch Rw12d

Now i want to make it a 7.1 system but i am not sure what speakers I need.
I was thinking of:

Front L/R: Purity
Surround L/R: Montage
SB L/R: ?
Center: Matinee
Sub: Klipsch Rw12d

For the SB i was thinking of small Martin Logan bookshelf speakers but i am not sure which ones or what route i should take.
I didn't want to mix too many speakers so i wanted to know everyone's thoughts.
You didn't specify a particular budget, but without going too costly, I would look for the ML LX16. They are under $500 a pair, decent midrange and lowend for a bookshelf and use the same type of tweeter you have in the montage. The LX 16 are the same speaker as the Motion 15 bookshelf, just slightly different cosmetics so they've been discontinued.
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post #917 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by temps View Post
Hey there guys, question - Center Channel.

I have two ESL fronts right now and I cannot see the point of a center channel. They sound phenomenal, the sound stage is big and wide, and dialogue is perfectly understandable at any volume level. I've had them in two setups now - on either side of a 120" screen, and now just a temporary 50" plasma until I get my new screen in - and I didn't miss the center in both cases. Outside of the sweet spot, I have noticed that the nearer speaker will start to dominate the soundfield and the stereo effect suffers, so maybe a center would help there.

How is it that theaters can have a great stereo image across such a large seating area? Is it something to do with just the sheer size of the space, or is that where my missing speakers (I only run 4.1) would help? Would a center help me get better surround sound for every seating position in my current HT?

If yes, what center would you recommend? I had been leaning towards grabbing an older electrostat center like the Cinema I or Feature off of eBay, but both are more money than the Electromotion C2 and Motion 40XT which are both advertised as timber matched to the ESLs and I'd be giving up a lot of post-purchase support by eBaying something rather than getting a new product from my local dealer.
The point is that it will laser focus the imaging of your front soundstage. Phantom centers are fine until you buy a nice center and realize how much more focused everything sounds, especially dialogue. The way you describe the sound changing when you are outside the sweetspot is exactly the type of thing a matching center will help to eliminate. This would definitely help to make your imaging better in every seat. Movie theaters create great imaging by having enormous speakers all around, including giant center channel speakers hidden behind the screen.

for your center, did you mean the 50 xt? also, is there any possibility for an acoustically transparent screen? Putting a 3rd esl behind the screen as your center, assuming your seating area isn't crazy wide, would be awesome!
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post #918 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
I fully understand the desire to big sound but small speaker. Where are the speakers going to be placed? Like, are they going on a bookshelf, wall mounted, on speaker stands, etc.? And how constrained are you space?
All speakers will be wall-mounted for aesthetic purposes since this is a family room.
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post #919 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
The point is that it will laser focus the imaging of your front soundstage. Phantom centers are fine until you buy a nice center and realize how much more focused everything sounds, especially dialogue. The way you describe the sound changing when you are outside the sweetspot is exactly the type of thing a matching center will help to eliminate. This would definitely help to make your imaging better in every seat. Movie theaters create great imaging by having enormous speakers all around, including giant center channel speakers hidden behind the screen.

for your center, did you mean the 50 xt? also, is there any possibility for an acoustically transparent screen? Putting a 3rd esl behind the screen as your center, assuming your seating area isn't crazy wide, would be awesome!
Hahah, I did actually think about an acoustically transparent screen. The cost of the screen is just too much though... I know my own weaknesses, and getting a $2,500+ screen would set off a chain reaction of upgrades to make everything is doing the new screen justice. So it'd be new projector, new receiver, probably paint the ceiling black, double up on the subs.... I can't afford to set myself off like that right now unless my stocks double overnight.

ESLs all across the front would definitely be ideal since my seating area is just over ten feet wide but I'll have to be a little more conventional for now. Yes, sorry, I did mean the 50XT.

It's either buy one of the traditional cone speaker/foldedmotion tweeter things new (50XT or C2) or a hybrid electrostat/speaker/tweeter used (Cinema I or the self-amplified Feature)
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post #920 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 04:16 PM
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Thanks Tch0rT! Your HT looks very nice
Thanks! I need to update the pics. Currently thinking of picking up the ML LX16's to use for back surrounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post
Not sure if he's running electrostats or not but some of the ML's go down to 0.9 ohm I believe, which is off the chart. That's why I got some 8 gauge for my Theos. Probably overkill, could've gotten away with 10 gauge.
Yeah that's true however the ESL's only drop that low on very high frequencies like 18-20khz. I don't think a lot of content contains frequencies those high and if they do it's not for long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
I would look for the ML LX16. They are under $500 a pair, decent midrange and lowend for a bookshelf and use the same type of tweeter you have in the montage.
Incorrect, the LX16 has the newer folded motion tweeter, the Montage has the Bohlender Graebener Neo3.


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post #921 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 06:02 PM
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Doh. Major brain fart. That's what I get for checking avs at work
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post #922 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 09:37 PM
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LOL understandable. They like to name their stuff in an odd way, it's hard to keep some of the models straight. Thankfully they have a Product Museum page!

I got a pair of LX16's ordered for back surrounds.


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post #923 of 971 Old 08-20-2014, 11:36 PM
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Thank you all for the cable advise!

Since I know very little to nothing about HT, I have another question to ask.
Can I place the subwoofer at back of the room? Near the sofa?
Now it sits 1 1/2 feet away in front of FL, it sounded ok but it will occupy less space if it can be placed at back of the room.

Fronts: SL3, Center: Cinema, Rear: Script, SW: Rel Storm III.

Old dog learning new tricks. Thank you!
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post #924 of 971 Old 08-21-2014, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
You didn't specify a particular budget, but without going too costly, I would look for the ML LX16. They are under $500 a pair, decent midrange and lowend for a bookshelf and use the same type of tweeter you have in the montage. The LX 16 are the same speaker as the Motion 15 bookshelf, just slightly different cosmetics so they've been discontinued.
I have a budget of about $500 - $800 max since they are rear speakers. I think I do not need to spend alot on these.
I actually have a Abyss sub also and trying buy another one but i cannot seem to find one lol. Its old I know.
There are some Dynamo 1000w but I hate wireless things. This is down the line after i upgrade by Denon 3808ci.
I will try to find a place to listen to them and see if they sound good.
Thanks for your help.

Last edited by bull3001; 08-21-2014 at 11:07 AM.
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post #925 of 971 Old 08-21-2014, 07:08 PM
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I just picked up a pair of 60xt's and echo what Dr Michael has said. These things have scary amounts of output. I'm still breaking them in of course. Running them on a marantz 6008 paired with a sherwood 965 7ch amp, and morrow interconnects.....but again they are big and have tons of headroom. Initially I laughed at the idea of martin logan coming out with an "extreme" branding. ......sure took me a back when I first heard them. Although, they are still dynamic and engaging with all music. The 40% larger folded tweeter and dual 8's will put a smile on your face with bold and extended highs and tight bass... easily well worth the extra dollars over the 40's imo.

Note, while they are 94db and can be run on a receiver. They love the extra juice from a dedicated amp. Very happy
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post #926 of 971 Old 08-22-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim1290 View Post
Thank you all for the cable advise!

Since I know very little to nothing about HT, I have another question to ask.
Can I place the subwoofer at back of the room? Near the sofa?
Now it sits 1 1/2 feet away in front of FL, it sounded ok but it will occupy less space if it can be placed at back of the room.

Fronts: SL3, Center: Cinema, Rear: Script, SW: Rel Storm III.

Old dog learning new tricks. Thank you!
A subwoofer can be placed anywhere, but it won't always sound as good as it can. Close to your listening position will probably give you a more tactile feel to your bass. The only way to know for sure is to experiment and try out your sub in different places around your room. You can also search "bass crawl" for some ideas on placement.
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post #927 of 971 Old 08-23-2014, 12:25 AM
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Thanks simp1.

I have tried to place the SW at the back of the room, and the result was less good, so I moved it back to where it was. I don't have much choices for the SW locations, due to small space.

The speaker cables are here, going to replace the old ones and see what result will be.

Once again, thank you all for your help.

Jim
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post #928 of 971 Old 08-23-2014, 07:12 AM
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One thing to consider is that 2 subs will be better than 1. Not just louder, but smoother bass across the entire room, more tactile feel, and better low end extension. You could get a second REL or sell it and get 2 of something new, like an HSU, PSA, Rythmik, or if you want something better looking, a pair of ML's.
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post #929 of 971 Old 08-25-2014, 03:01 PM
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PROUD NEW ML OWNER HERE ! ! !

I picked up an original Dynamo in excellent condition for an absolute steal off of Craigslist

The Dynamo has been outstanding so far. It's a smaller family room, and it fits the needs of the space perfectly. Im using the .1/lfe input with the crossover set at about 50hz, phase at 90deg and volume at not quite 4/10. My next step is an Auralex Subdude II

system otherwise is....

Marantz SR4023
B&W 602.5 S3
PS Audio Digital Link III w/PS3 and Apple TV
Project Debut III w/ Speed Box and Ortofon 2M Blue
PS Audio Quintet
Salamander Archetype


PS
my girlfriend (fellow decorator) asked if it was possible to use two subwoofers because she thinks another Dynamo on the other side would look better
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2.0 > 7.1

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post #930 of 971 Old 08-25-2014, 04:18 PM
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Yeah it's possible to use two. More is always better with subs! They don't have to work as hard for the same SPL which lowers distortion. Also it helps even out the peaks and nulls for a smoother response.

I got my LX16's today for back surrounds!

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