Martin Logan Owners Thread - Page 59 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1741 of 1759 Old 09-07-2016, 11:49 AM
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Room Problem

The race is over.

I spent yesterday afternoon moving my sofa back, my MLP chairs to the right- all to get a sightline to the bottom of the left EM ESL. It all got rather weird and the furniture just didn't work in the room. Wife was out whole time fortunately. And as I am retired, I spend alot of time during the day on the couch reading paper, doing crosword, internet, etc. And this puts sofa arm squarely in front of left Martin Logan. So no matter what I do, this room can't work because of one sofa arm!

Everyone with a few exceptions has told me this repeatedly- must see/hear lower woofer section, side wall are too close, "planars need room to breath!" and so forth.

Disappointed dealer and probably some here as I never did the test there or in my den.

As I no longer have credibility with posters, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.

Chastised, but still searching!

Thank you everyone for all your valuable input.
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post #1742 of 1759 Old 09-07-2016, 12:08 PM
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Sell your wife on the advantages of a nice new recliner in place of the sofa...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #1743 of 1759 Old 09-07-2016, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterOrr View Post
The race is over.

I spent yesterday afternoon moving my sofa back, my MLP chairs to the right- all to get a sightline to the bottom of the left EM ESL. It all got rather weird and the furniture just didn't work in the room. Wife was out whole time fortunately. And as I am retired, I spend alot of time during the day on the couch reading paper, doing crosword, internet, etc. And this puts sofa arm squarely in front of left Martin Logan. So no matter what I do, this room can't work because of one sofa arm!

Everyone with a few exceptions has told me this repeatedly- must see/hear lower woofer section, side wall are too close, "planars need room to breath!" and so forth.

Disappointed dealer and probably some here as I never did the test there or in my den.

As I no longer have credibility with posters
, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.

Chastised, but still searching!

Thank you everyone for all your valuable input.

"As I no longer have credibility with posters"

How so? We all try things that we can't get to work for one reason or another. At least you tried.
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post #1744 of 1759 Old 09-10-2016, 01:59 PM
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Problem Room

I just returned to this thread today and appreciate hearing it's ok to post even if you aren't about to purchase a speaker. I have a financial problem which will take a couple of months but am still thinking.

I still want to get a planar working here, I know, I know.

As I learned from all of you, the two problems with ML EM ESLs in my room are, first, front wall with 110" screen is only 11' 9" wide so not possible to move speakers inboard therefore max distance from side of speaker to side walls would be only 1 1/2 feet. Maybe with use of GIK panel or other acoustic treatments could make this work if not optimally? Distance behind speakers would be 4' so that is ok.

Second issue was sofa arm blocking woofer of left speaker. The ML 8" woofer handles all frequencies below 500hz. As midrange begins at 250hz (midrange is 250hz-7500hz where most of vocal and instrumental fundamentals reside) lower midrange of left speaker will be attenuated and the two speakers can probably never gel.

I have a new love at same price point as ML- Eminent Technology LFT- 8b. Its 8" woofer handles frequencies from 180hz and down. According to a review its midrange panel (above sofa arm) rolls off slowly at 180hz so I should hear all the midrange and below.

Might work?
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post #1745 of 1759 Old 09-10-2016, 02:38 PM
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I have gotten tossed out of a couple of threads for not being an owner (even if I was very familiar with the product) but by and large folk here want to help other folk. An owners thread is where I go to get information from owners as well as post if I am an owner.

Being 1.5' from the sidewall is not a real problem for a planar panel since they don't radiate much to the side. The pattern looks like an 8 with the speaker crossing the center horizontally and sound radiating to front and back. They don't radiate much from top and bottom either over most of their range.

Three feet is about the minimum to the rear wall that most manufacturers suggest for panels (to get the fundamental cancellation frequency from the back wave hitting the front wave low enough to be less audible).

The ET LFT-8b is a nice speaker by all accounts, and 180 Hz is much better than 500 Hz, but you'll still have some damping due to the couch. There is a guy on the Magnepan forum who has (or had) a pair and can describe them but I suggest you start a new thread if there isn't already one for ET. The last I heard them was too long ago for me to comment. At that time the bass did not match the panels real well but I understand the "b" model has improved on that.

If you are looking at other panels you should give Magnepan a listen.

If you really like ML you may or may not like planar dynamic (vs. ESL) panels as much.

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #1746 of 1759 Old 09-10-2016, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterOrr View Post
I just returned to this thread today and appreciate hearing it's ok to post even if you aren't about to purchase a speaker. I have a financial problem which will take a couple of months but am still thinking.

I still want to get a planar working here, I know, I know.

As I learned from all of you, the two problems with ML EM ESLs in my room are, first, front wall with 110" screen is only 11' 9" wide so not possible to move speakers inboard therefore max distance from side of speaker to side walls would be only 1 1/2 feet. Maybe with use of GIK panel or other acoustic treatments could make this work if not optimally? Distance behind speakers would be 4' so that is ok.

Second issue was sofa arm blocking woofer of left speaker. The ML 8" woofer handles all frequencies below 500hz. As midrange begins at 250hz (midrange is 250hz-7500hz where most of vocal and instrumental fundamentals reside) lower midrange of left speaker will be attenuated and the two speakers can probably never gel.

I have a new love at same price point as ML- Eminent Technology LFT- 8b. Its 8" woofer handles frequencies from 180hz and down. According to a review its midrange panel (above sofa arm) rolls off slowly at 180hz so I should hear all the midrange and below.

Might work?
I have a 106" diagonal screen or 92" wide and wall is only 11 feet. Leaves about 18" inches from screen edge to each wall. I put in corner bass traps ie 4" thick x 2 ft wide covering the corners plus Roxul insulation behind them. I also have side 4" thick acoustic panels to the sides of my ML Theos. So behind and to the side I have good acoustic treatments. The Theos are about 3 feet from the front wall and only 12 inches from the side wall. This may not be optimal placement for these speakers but it does work very well and the speakers sound great.

I went to ML speakers to obtain that sweet distortion free sound and I tried a few speakers that just could not cut it especially once you increased the volume to about 10 db below reference ie 75 db or more (Triad gold classic and a couple others). For my center I use the ML Stage X about 3 feet from and below my screen. Great center speaker. Love the sound.
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post #1747 of 1759 Old 09-11-2016, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterOrr View Post
I just returned to this thread today and appreciate hearing it's ok to post even if you aren't about to purchase a speaker. I have a financial problem which will take a couple of months but am still thinking.

I still want to get a planar working here, I know, I know.

As I learned from all of you, the two problems with ML EM ESLs in my room are, first, front wall with 110" screen is only 11' 9" wide so not possible to move speakers inboard therefore max distance from side of speaker to side walls would be only 1 1/2 feet. Maybe with use of GIK panel or other acoustic treatments could make this work if not optimally? Distance behind speakers would be 4' so that is ok.

Second issue was sofa arm blocking woofer of left speaker. The ML 8" woofer handles all frequencies below 500hz. As midrange begins at 250hz (midrange is 250hz-7500hz where most of vocal and instrumental fundamentals reside) lower midrange of left speaker will be attenuated and the two speakers can probably never gel.

I have a new love at same price point as ML- Eminent Technology LFT- 8b. Its 8" woofer handles frequencies from 180hz and down. According to a review its midrange panel (above sofa arm) rolls off slowly at 180hz so I should hear all the midrange and below.

Might work?



Review from two years ago in Absolute Sound.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...b-loudspeaker/

I don't have any experience with these.
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post #1748 of 1759 Old 09-11-2016, 10:35 AM
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If you're checking out ET be sure to take a look at Bruce's rotary woofer. Few have a place for one but it is worth reading about just for fun. I have heard one or two over the years and they are unbelievable.

To me the earlier ET LFT-8 sounded like a Maggie with bass, albeit somewhat muddy bass that didn't blend well. Since then he has made major improvements in bass performance and integration by all accounts (ML went through the same thing about ten-plus years ago IIRC/IMO). I still think they need a decent sub but the price/performance ratio is outstanding and they have a lot of owners who are very strong advocates, many of whom have had ESLs or other planar dynamics (e.g. Apogee, Magnepan, etc.)

More on-topic, does anybody know if the new Masterpiece line is going to replace the Summit and Montis? There's a lot of overlap between the Masterpiece and Reserve series speakers...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Last edited by DonH50; 09-11-2016 at 10:39 AM.
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post #1749 of 1759 Old 09-11-2016, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
If you're checking out ET be sure to take a look at Bruce's rotary woofer. Few have a place for one but it is worth reading about just for fun. I have heard one or two over the years and they are unbelievable.

To me the earlier ET LFT-8 sounded like a Maggie with bass, albeit somewhat muddy bass that didn't blend well. Since then he has made major improvements in bass performance and integration by all accounts (ML went through the same thing about ten-plus years ago IIRC/IMO). I still think they need a decent sub but the price/performance ratio is outstanding and they have a lot of owners who are very strong advocates, many of whom have had ESLs or other planar dynamics (e.g. Apogee, Magnepan, etc.)

More on-topic, does anybody know if the new Masterpiece line is going to replace the Summit and Montis? There's a lot of overlap between the Masterpiece and Reserve series speakers...

"does anybody know if the new Masterpiece line is going to replace the Summit and Montis"


Already replaced by the 15A, 13A and the 11A. I think they will additionally do something new in the $7,500 range.
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post #1750 of 1759 Old 09-11-2016, 02:25 PM
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Thanks, they are both on the ML website, must have missed where they said the old line was disappearing.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #1751 of 1759 Old 09-12-2016, 08:16 AM
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Problem Room

Thanks everybody, I am encouraged particularly by Frank D's success with a similar <12' front wall.

Will report back on this thread although that will be several months.
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post #1752 of 1759 Old 09-15-2016, 01:34 PM
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Anyone use the Onkyo M-508 to power their EM-ESL? I know these are kind of old but it looks like it packs a lot of power.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ONKYO-M-508-...QAAOSwepJXX2~l

Thanks!
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post #1753 of 1759 Unread 09-19-2016, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ngerstman View Post
Thanks for the thoughts. I guess I'll eventually figure out if the off center seating is enough to bring down the sound quality enough to go another direction, maybe look at Maggies as well or even a small panel maker not far from me in NJ, GT Audio Works. Their speakers are Maggie like but he uses neodymium magnets giving the panel 93db efficiency and more dynamics. Thanks again. Regards. Ned.
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Originally Posted by Ngerstman View Post
In my listening room, I do not have a dead center listening position but two side by side chair/recliners obviously left and right of center. Would a setup like that preclude you from wanting ML speakers? Does not being center kill the illusion enough to go in another direction? Or is the sweet spot wide enough these days in ML? Thanks. Regards. Ned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterOrr View Post
After multiple responses on this site and one other- the 100% consensus is without line of sight of whole speaker from MLP, full height ML dipole electrostatics will not work in my room. Also with centered Stewart screen cannot get MLs far enough away from side walls.

The suggestion to raise these speakers 20" is interesting as before but will these speakers still image properly raised that far- won't they have to be tilted forward a bit? And again can't due to projection screen get them farther than maybe 1 1/2 feet fromside walls.

So I have another tact- Has anyone had experience with stand mount dipoles? Below is an attachment photo of Eminent Technology's stand mounted LFT-16A, the little brother to the highly regarded full height LFT-8b.

Does anyone have experience with this speaker or any other stand mount dipole?

As you can tell, I am still on my mission to make dipoles work in my den.

As always thank you for any advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterOrr View Post
Scott-, you seem to be my advocate while LowTech 1 says "don't do it! as imaging will go over my head. I have another issue too- As I said, I will audition at dealer on 18" risers and if successful will audition here. My big fear is woofer is designed to be close to floor and raised 18" will change woofer frequency response (up to 500hz at crossover!). Plan to measure response with REW at dealer.

If the EM ESLs make it here, I do have 4' to rear wall and several GIK panels which I will place behind/to side of EM ESLs and see if that helps with side wall distance. Also may try plywood sheet behind drape in front of left wall window. And so forth.

As always, any input is appreciated.
@Ned and Peter: If you are listening to music, which with ML's I would hope you are, since they truly are magical when setup properly... it is critical to have a center listening position... AND to have both speakers frequency matched across the entire frequency domain. Otherwise, your imaging, sound stage and depth acuity will not be nearly as good as it can be. We have actually tested this to death with numerous speakers. Just plopping them down in a room... yeah, you may get what you believe to be pretty good sound, perhaps even lucky enough for them to sound better than anything else you have heard, but these speakers (and many others) can put you in music nirvana if setup and frequency balanced correctly. Proper imaging (separation and precise location of instruments) is highly dependent on the frequency response of both left and right speakers being perfectly matched, which it seems quite a few people neglect. If you don't have both left and right speakers placed equally in a perfectly symmetrical room, it is going to be difficult to obtain that proper imaging... especially if you are not in the center... because each speaker will likely have significantly different frequency responses, which guarantees improper imaging. This is one of the main reasons when we run ARC, Audyssey, DIRAC, etc... that we only use the center most mic position (main listening position only)... especially if we are setting up the system for music listening. Works great for movies too... as most of the folks that come in my theater room wouldn't know the difference between their seat being "somewhat" equalized or not... they could hang from the ceiling and think it sounds great. Measuring those other seats messes with the main seat, yet doesn't really improve on the other seats in any situation that we have experimented with. Frequency matching (equalization, phase alignment, etc) won't be quite as critical for movies or casual listening if that is all you plan to do, but then why are you looking at getting such nice speakers for something that is not so critical.
@peter : As far as firing into the end of a sofa... or raising them up on stands... I certainly can't imagine the stands working... HOWEVER, if you could manage to get the speakers frequency matched, partially firing into the sofa might actually work okay, although that might be a challenge that would push whatever system you used to beyond its limits of adjustment. For sure if you don't use something to frequency match the speakers, you end up with what you heard... which I figure must have sounded like a mess since you took the speakers back. ANY speakers (short of monitors or bookshelf type speakers on stands to get them above the sofa) are going to have the same issue if not frequency matched. Even with those, if one speaker is closer to the wall than another, you could still have issues getting the correct sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rah50 View Post
Thought I would show y'all the plot from my first ARC run on the 11A's using the PBK.

It really improved the musicality of the 11A's by adding a little weight and perfecting the blend between the woofers and esl panels. Great feature!
By chance have you measured your response before and after with REW? It would be interesting to see the differences across the entire frequency response. I had the Montis for a good while... absolutely wonderful speakers.

Sonnie
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post #1754 of 1759 Unread 09-20-2016, 09:45 AM
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Problem Room

Thanks Sonnie-

As I said previously-

"I have a new love at same price point as ML- Eminent Technology LFT- 8b. Its 8" woofer handles frequencies from 180hz (vs. ML 500hz) and down. According to a review its midrange panel (above sofa arm) rolls off slowly at 180hz so I should hear all the midrange and below."

I will try this in several months when budget gets back on line and report in.
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post #1755 of 1759 Unread 09-20-2016, 10:44 AM
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I need surround speakers to mount on a wall type device. My couch is on the same wall. I plan to put these above my ears and aimed just in front of main listening position, so as not to be directly aimed to get dispersion. I found a pr of open box Motion 15's that I can get for the same price as 4's. I am sure they sound better, but the 4's would look better mounted on a wall. The 4's are smaller and have a unique look for an artsy look. I heard them side by side at full range, but if they were both crossed over at 80 - 90, would they be more equal? Would the 4's be good enough for surround? I only use 5.1 for movies, 2.0 or 2.1 for music. I will use 5.1 for concert dvd's, but this again is more applause and yelling than vocal.

Looking at Sony 65930D and Marantz 7010 to replace Mits DLP and Denon 3808

Last edited by landonsdad; 09-20-2016 at 02:15 PM.
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post #1756 of 1759 Unread 09-20-2016, 11:37 AM
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Martin Logan Owners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by landonsdad View Post
[...]Would the 4's be good enough for surround?[...]
I use 4's for surround & height and they perform well


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My equipment: JVC RS-55, SI Performance 120" 1.3 gain, OPPO BDP-105, ANTHEM MRX-1120, Roomie-iPad, QNAP 469L NAS, ROKU 4, ATV, DTV HR34-500, PS3, XBOX 360. ML Source (F), Matinee (C), MotionFX (S), Motion4 (.4), (2) Depth-i subs. M/ASlim5 Rack, CalMAN 5 Enthusiast/C6 meter.
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post #1757 of 1759 Unread 09-23-2016, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landonsdad View Post
I need surround speakers to mount on a wall type device. My couch is on the same wall. I plan to put these above my ears and aimed just in front of main listening position, so as not to be directly aimed to get dispersion. I found a pr of open box Motion 15's that I can get for the same price as 4's. I am sure they sound better, but the 4's would look better mounted on a wall. The 4's are smaller and have a unique look for an artsy look. I heard them side by side at full range, but if they were both crossed over at 80 - 90, would they be more equal? Would the 4's be good enough for surround? I only use 5.1 for movies, 2.0 or 2.1 for music. I will use 5.1 for concert dvd's, but this again is more applause and yelling than vocal.
I also use Motion 4's for height speakers. They are easier to wall mount and work perfectly for me. I think mine crossed over at 90 or 100 ( can't remember what Audyssey set them at - it's been awhile ).

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post #1758 of 1759 Unread 09-26-2016, 06:22 PM
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I have a question for my fellow ML owners. I'm looking to add the Motion FX speakers for my surrounds and the will need to be placed on stands due to the layout of my room. I have looked all over and the best options I have found are Sound Anchor and VTI. I need a stand that is about 36" tall and needs to have a good weighty bottom for stability. Can any of you point out a good reliable stand for my needs? Thanks!
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post #1759 of 1759 Unread Today, 04:13 PM
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Can Motion 4 be used for ceiling speakers? Will the mount they come with work or would one have to get a separate mount? Any thoughts?

Looking for on wall thin ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos set up.
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