SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 24 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: There are many surround speakers out there now, but the ones below would have to get my highest reco
Mirage OMD5 (or any other Mirage Omnipole) 23 23.00%
JBL P520WS / Infinity ES-250 / Infinity Classia C255ES (Dual-monopole for 4 channels from 2 speakers, but also Bipole & Dipole switchable) 4 4.00%
Axiom QS8 or QS4 (Unique Quadpole design) 26 26.00%
Paradigm ADP (Many models available with this design, where the tweeters run Dipole, but the woofers are Bipole) 18 18.00%
Monitor Audio BXFX or RXFX (Single woofer, but the tweeters can switch to either Dipole or Bipole) 13 13.00%
Monitor Audio GXFX (6 drivers, including a ribbon. (Monopole / Dipole switchable) 11 11.00%
KEF 26/2DS (Dipole only, alas... but with two 6.5 inch side woofers and a front-firing 8 inch!!! ) 5 5.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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post #691 of 708 Old 06-30-2014, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cxr369 View Post
I appreciate all the insight. I do want to keep my RC line, so I wanted to know which out of those speakers that you mentioned would best for the four in ceiling speakers that the atoms setup would require. What about the placement too. I saw a diagram where the fronts ceiling speakers were above the main fronts and another where they were above the wides. Then the rear ceilings were right above the listener and in another pic they were above the rear surrounds. What is your take on that, and which of those speakers that you mentioned would timbre match the best. Thanks again
Def Tech UIW RCS II in-ceiling speakers would be a close approximation of the Energy RC line. You need four.

So, then I would still use your current Energy surrounds for the sides and back wall surrounds in either bipole or monopole mode, but not dipole mode. I'm still mulling over how best to proceed with the front screen wall. If you can squeeze an acoustic screen in there... that would be best.

We're still not sure exactly where the top surrounds should optimally be located. Dolby is supposed to have more details in a big August event prior to the CEDIA convention. However, what we DO know is that they are not placed directly above the front mains or back surrounds like some DTS Neo:X layouts. It's as clear as mud.

Just be patient like the rest of us.

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post #692 of 708 Old 06-30-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cxr369 View Post
I appreciate all the insight. I do want to keep my RC line, so I wanted to know which out of those speakers that you mentioned would best for the four in ceiling speakers that the atoms setup would require. What about the placement too. I saw a diagram where the fronts ceiling speakers were above the main fronts and another where they were above the wides. Then the rear ceilings were right above the listener and in another pic they were above the rear surrounds. What is your take on that, and which of those speakers that you mentioned would timbre match the best. Thanks again
Also I took a look at the triads, their specs have a minimum frequency of 70 doesn't it have to be at least 40 like you mentioned for an optimal Atmos setup?
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post #693 of 708 Old 06-30-2014, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cxr369 View Post
Also I took a look at the triads, their specs have a minimum frequency of 70 doesn't it have to be at least 40 like you mentioned for an optimal Atmos setup?
I should have clarified. Dolby recommends surrounds down to 40 Hz, but if your theater does not meet that specification some Atmos processors (manufacturer dependent) can compensate with surround speaker bass management and dedicated subwoofer outputs aside from the LFE output.

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post #694 of 708 Old 07-01-2014, 12:42 AM
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That makes sense. So would you still take the Triads over the Def Techs for my setup or since the Def Techs are close to what I already have, then go with those? As far as the acoustic screen, what would be the benefit, if I can put the front's next to the screen and the front wides there too? I don't know if 18-20 inches would be enough space for a false wall, and what do I do with my front wides? if they are going to be outside of the false wall, what is the main benefit? I'm just asking because I really don't know. I really appreciate the help.
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post #695 of 708 Old 07-01-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by cxr369 View Post
That makes sense. So would you still take the Triads over the Def Techs for my setup or since the Def Techs are close to what I already have, then go with those? As far as the acoustic screen, what would be the benefit, if I can put the front's next to the screen and the front wides there too? I don't know if 18-20 inches would be enough space for a false wall, and what do I do with my front wides? if they are going to be outside of the false wall, what is the main benefit? I'm just asking because I really don't know. I really appreciate the help.
I'm off to an appointment. Not leaving you hanging. Will be back this evening.

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post #696 of 708 Old 07-01-2014, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cxr369 View Post
That makes sense. So would you still take the Triads over the Def Techs for my setup or since the Def Techs are close to what I already have, then go with those? As far as the acoustic screen, what would be the benefit, if I can put the front's next to the screen and the front wides there too? I don't know if 18-20 inches would be enough space for a false wall, and what do I do with my front wides? if they are going to be outside of the false wall, what is the main benefit? I'm just asking because I really don't know. I really appreciate the help.
For one thing, an acoustically transparent screen allows you to place the speakers directly behind the material, just like a commercial theater. This locks the picture with the sound rather than having the sound of the center come from below the action or the left and rights off to the sides of the screen. It's the best thing you can possibly do as it is the premium speaker setup in a theater.




Given that, using the RC-70's behind the screen... you may be pushing things a bit given their large size. If you sell your Energy's and go with Triad Silver LCR in-walls or in-room's behind an AT screen... you could easily pull it off (someone made a 14" deep false wall -- total depth of 12" decking with stud framing and screen frame mounting standoffs -- and used larger Triad Gold LCR in-room's and two medium subs behind the screen with no problem - see image above). If the cost of the Triad's happen to fall outside your budget (I don't know the latest retail price-- check the Triad speaker thread or contact AVS's sales staff for a quote), you could go with the Def Techs I mentioned.

The Triads would definitely be a big step up in sound quality.

You would size your screen up to your seating distance... I doubt it would cover the entire width of your room. This is a handy calculator for 16x9 screens. http://myhometheater.homestead.com/v...alculator.html

Then you would place front wide side surrounds on the side walls. They usually sit a little bit between the traditional side surrounds (perhaps slightly closer to the screen wall than the side surrounds) and your front screen wall speakers and are angled to fire towards your primary listening space. They fill in the sonic gap between those two speaker positions.

Again, we should know more precise speaker locations for Atmos fairly soon.

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Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 07-01-2014 at 09:49 PM.
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post #697 of 708 Old 07-07-2014, 05:38 PM
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So, is there any links or diagrams for ideal set up for HOME ATMOS?

Thanks!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #698 of 708 Old 07-07-2014, 05:58 PM
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So, is there any links or diagrams for ideal set up for HOME ATMOS?

Thanks!
Not yet. Whatever has been released doesn't really help. They're just general sketches, no specifics.

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post #699 of 708 Old 07-07-2014, 07:10 PM
 
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So, is there any links or diagrams for ideal set up for HOME ATMOS?

Thanks!
This Audioholics article (which I know Dan has some issues with) gives the general configurations:

Dolby Atmos For Home Theater Explained


A set up diagram is posted here and discussed by the DIY crew. It looks pretty specific to me.

Design Challenge - Ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos


The diagram was originally posted by AVR guru jdsmoothie, so I presume it's lifted from the owner's manual of one of the upcoming (Denon?) Atmos enabled AVR's.

The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ
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post #700 of 708 Old 07-07-2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
This Audioholics article (which I know Dan has some issues with) gives the general configurations:

Dolby Atmos For Home Theater Explained


A set up diagram is posted here and discussed by the DIY crew. It looks pretty specific to me.

Design Challenge - Ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos


The diagram was originally posted by AVR guru jdsmoothie, so I presume it's lifted from the owner's manual of one of the upcoming (Denon?) Atmos enabled AVR's.

The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ

I wouldn't call that diagram specific enough if you're designing a theater from scratch and maybe paying someone to create blueprints. A lot of people need more than that to go on. They haven't even laid out the speaker recommendations yet (just those compromised all-in-ones). Maybe in August... maybe at CEDIA... who knows for certain??

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post #701 of 708 Old 07-08-2014, 08:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I wouldn't call that diagram specific enough if you're designing a theater from scratch and maybe paying someone to create blueprints. A lot of people need more than that to go on.
Well it's 100% better than nothing and I would call it specific enough. In my line of work, if a tech agency sent me a trainee CAD operator that couldn't interpret that diagram, I'd send them back the next day.

Honestly, what more could one need to successfully lay out the speakers? The diagram shows the alignment of the speakers from the front to rear based on the position of the mains, and a range of acceptable angles of declination from the main listening position. Having a range of acceptable values is no different to the recommended 5.1 and 7.1 speaker layouts published by Dolby (and others) for years. Indeed, the fact that there are a range of acceptable values tells me that a level of precision beyond that is not required for proper height/top speaker positioning.

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They haven't even laid out the speaker recommendations yet (just those compromised all-in-ones). Maybe in August... maybe at CEDIA... who knows for certain??
I'm aware of that thanks, but @thebland didn't ask about speaker recommendations.
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post #702 of 708 Old 07-09-2014, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

I'm aware of that thanks, but @thebland didn't ask about speaker recommendations.
I have all Quested direct radiators. 7.5 bed and 6 speakers for heights. At this point, I think I am going to set up all for AUro and hope it will work with Atmos as the Datasat processor can use Auro to upmix.

I'll place front heights up at the front, above the screen, tipping down to the main listening area and side heights on either side of the main listening area and rear heights up and above the surround rears but angled down to the main listening area.

I suspect this should be pretty close for Atmos and, perhaps, DTS UHD when it arrives... if not, I can move them.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #703 of 708 Old 07-09-2014, 08:51 AM
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I have all Quested direct radiators. 7.5 bed and 6 speakers for heights. At this point, I think I am going to set up all for AUro and hope it will work with Atmos as the Datasat processor can use Auro to upmix.

I'll place front heights up at the front, above the screen, tipping down to the main listening area and side heights on either side of the main listening area and rear heights up and above the surround rears but angled down to the main listening area.

I suspect this should be pretty close for Atmos and, perhaps, DTS UHD when it arrives... if not, I can move them.
There has been absolutely no movement on the Auro front. Unless there's some stealth announcement planned for CEDIA I would instead consider Atmos speaker positioning. Besides, Atmos can sound better since it has discrete information to work with. Much of Auro is based on matrixing. This seems to bear out with people's comparisons between the two formats.

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post #704 of 708 Old 07-20-2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Timbre matching is very important for all object based formats for a seamless 3D sound scape. Here's what I would do: Get four short, positional ceiling mount brackets and use the RC-R's in bipole mode to use as the on ceiling surrounds. Position each with the side drivers firing towards the front and back of the room and angled so that the left array fires towards the farthest listener on the right and the right array fires towards the farthest listener on the left of the room.

We just have commercial Dolby Atmos specs. to go by right now.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...=cin-atmos-pro

Are you planning on a front projection screen by any chance?
Whew!!!! Just read every page of this thread and have to say it's quite exhausting. One thing I'd like to know is if it generally still advisable to use surround speakers that utilize bipole/dipole (switchable) or are regular bookshelfs preferred with what is coming with Atmos? I"m looking to upgrade my system now (very modest budget): help upgrading my speakers
and thought this might pertinent to my decision making. Especially, since I have been considering adding switchable bipole/dipole speakers as surrounds that would not be timbre matched to whatever I end up using in the front.

Last edited by Warner2Bruce; 07-20-2014 at 11:02 PM.
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post #705 of 708 Old 07-21-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Warner2Bruce View Post
Whew!!!! Just read every page of this thread and have to say it's quite exhausting. One thing I'd like to know is if it generally still advisable to use surround speakers that utilize bipole/dipole (switchable) or are regular bookshelfs preferred with what is coming with Atmos? I"m looking to upgrade my system now (very modest budget): help upgrading my speakers
and thought this might pertinent to my decision making. Especially, since I have been considering adding switchable bipole/dipole speakers as surrounds that would not be timbre matched to whatever I end up using in the front.
The short answer is that we may know more concrete bits of information no later than CEDIA in September. Dolby has promised they will release a detailed installer white paper for recommended home Atmos systems shortly.

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post #706 of 708 Old 07-22-2014, 04:16 AM
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Hey Guys,
I have a 14'x16' HT room where the Couch is on the Back wall (14') and I have a 7.1 denon 1911 receiver.
I currently have it set up as 5. with the surrounds in the ceiling.

What would be the best way to use the 7.1 set up? Front heights or rear sides?

Would it be possible to wire a total of 4 surrounds to the rear 2 channels for more sound or would that be weird?
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post #707 of 708 Old 07-22-2014, 04:18 AM
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Don't wire up four speakers to two amp terminals it'll put strain on your amp.

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post #708 of 708 Old 07-22-2014, 05:20 AM
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Question on Klipsch Reference II theater speakers

My front speakers are 6 cubic ft JBL L-200 studio monitors. (Room is 13 by 24 living room with 8 ft ceiling, carpeted and with cloth furniture. I have a 65 inch Sony 4k tv and an Epson front Projector.) I like the JBL compression driver horns for real vocal clarity and the 15" bass drivers go pretty strong and deep. Up to now I used a low cost (about $200) center channel Klipsch with tweeter and side by side 4 inch bass drivers. It was better than some I heard but still lacked the clarity I wanted. To compliment my big JBL's I just purchased Klipsch Reference II RS 62 II surrounds and RC 64 II center channel also incorporating horn loaded high frequency drivers. I went with the surrounds matching the center channel since that center channel is supposed to be super clear for dialogue. They have a bass and trebel driver pair facing at what appears to be 45 degrees to the front and the second pair 45 degrees tot he rear but in phase to preserver bass. The three Klipsch speakers are over 97 dB efficiency and have decent power handling ability so should have good dynamics even with the 93 dB efficient JBL's on my Yamaha 3010 receiver. I considered just skipping a center channel and just using my stereo JBL pair and buying only surrounds, but took the plunge anyway. Anyone have these Klipsch units? Mine are to arrive late this week. I heard some similar lower cost Klipsch at the dealer and really hope these will be a good match for my JBL's. Hate to spend $2500 and not get decent improvement.

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